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EspiKvlt
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I ran across that, read up on it. But surely there has to be more than that.In a nutshell.
I occasionally watch gay porn with my boyfriend (he's bi) and noticed exactly this. I remember watching a Louis Theroux episode where he looked into the porn industry (from men's perspective). This is actually a pretty interesting documentary, and Louis can be pretty funny. One of the guys who he followed around was a straight male doing gay porn. He was very attractive but it was pretty clear he was not into it and even felt shameful for it being his job. It's the same with "lesbian" porn, just an example of how little it matters that there's any genuine enjoyment or pleasure. I have heard quite a lot of guys mentioning being completely weirded out by watching porn then seeing a scene where it did not appear the woman was consenting. In lots of porn the girl gets thrown around like she's a blow up doll, it's crazy! When I was a teenager and hooked up with guys unfortunately you'd always get that dude who wanted to do something uncomfortable for everyone because he'd seen it in porn. It's the same with anal sex, it still amazes me how little idea some men have about anal sex. I can understand not understanding a pussy or a penis if you don't have one, but we all have arseholes.
I think this is one reason why amateur porn has been becoming so much more successful, because studio made porn is just too unrealistic.
Changing the subject, I just read the article about Salena's complaints of not being aired enough in the documentary. To be honest, this sounds harsh but that is life. Documentaries, films, tv shows etc will film lots of content and then work through to look at the best footage they have that makes the most sense for their story. I did get exactly the impression of Salena that she says she wanted to present when I watched the show, so I don't think it harmed her brand. To be honest as a viewer I wasn't as interested in her story in that particular video and thought Bailey was particularly good on camera.
They didn't have an episode that was directly about camming though which they should have. Bailey does a lot of stuff outside of being a camgirl and it made it seem like camming was just her side job rather than a job in its own right, and the episode where they followed the camgirl to Australia was very much about that one relationship which was definitely not common in the cam world. I think they should have used Salena's footage for a different episode directly about being a webcam model. As in a professional model who doesn't get most of their income from one guy who's desperately in love with them and thinks they're in a relationship.
The problem is, camming as a documentary isn't actually that interesting. Most of the action happens on the computer, you don't get to see as much back and forth interaction between people. Other than that you've got all the games and prep work which you can talk about, but that doesn't take much time to be explained, and you can rattle on about how it made your dreams come true because you have independence, but realistically that doesn't take long either. Conventions are fun, but not all camgirls go to conventions. Camgirls meeting up with camgirls is fun, but for most girls that's not a regular occurrence. Honestly a lot of the interesting parts are the negative parts. I could tell some really positive and interesting stories about relationships with members but they are private and I wouldn't share them, especially not publicly.
There's a bit more that could be said about camming and empowerment, but as far as watching girls on cam I feel Bailey and Salena said it all.
Sorry for back to back post, was too late to edit. About this above part of my earlier response.
Wtf is this?
(Don't really think any less of her for it, do think it's funny though. Maybe she meant hard shit.)
Some people don't view marijuana bad like more addictive drugs. Also marijuana is legal where she was smoking. So she wasn't doing anything illegal. I think she meant hard shit too.
This article had a powerful ending. Documentaries are about truth, not consent of the subjects when they realize that they may look bad. I do think the maker should be responsible for how they make their subjects look with their film making. If it is inaccurate, vindictive, risks serious harm to the subject, is misleading, or prejudiced we should be able to punish the maker and stop them profiting from it. This article does make a very good point about consent, agree or disagree.
"Legal though it may be to show the face of somebody who signed a release and then said no, and legal though it may be to introduce an adult Periscope scene to a mainstream audience, the documentary displays a lack of interest in its subjects’ consent that should alarm viewers interested in journalistic ethics, women’s safety, or both."
I don't think the film makers know what risks they may have placed on some of these performers. They may not even believe it if told, but it is real. Be a model for a few years and you will come across some seriously scary and angry people upset due to your rejection. Most of these guys have some resource to chase the model and their will be no warning if they do.
This is so accurate on both fronts.... I can definitely confirm that the interesting and exciting parts of camming do tend to be private for members too.
Of course, what is the context to this dated tweet?
http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/...ash-about-stop-acting-like-whores-tweet-27422
“I’m not gonna lie,” she wrote. “The fact that I was accused of ‘slut-shaming,’ being anti-woman, and judging a women’s sex lives crushed me. I consider myself a feminist. I would never point a finger at a woman for her actual sexual behavior, and I think all women have the right to express their desires. But I will look at women with influence—millionaire women who use their ‘sexiness’ to make money—and ask some questions. There is a difference, a key one, between ‘shaming’ and ‘holding someone accountable.’”
Her actual essay explaining herself more: http://www.glamour.com/story/rashida-jones-major-dont-the-pornification-of-everything
Though I do think it's important on influencers to not want overly sexualize. And there is a time and a place for it, but I also do believe in age restrictions. But I think she's incredibly casting judgment. She says she is holding them accountable, but how? By being completely demeaning?
Just because some people choose not to be modest with their body, should you "hold them accountable" by casting judgment. Or having a discussion? Maybe making sure your child understands what being appropriate means. How not to conduct yourself in public, and explain that sometimes people do things for show and entertainment. Maybe take the third commandment to consideration when parenting. Worshiping false idols?
Ms Jones in a nutshell:
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What documentaries are you watching?! I really like documentaries. I think they're awesome and interesting and I watch a lot of them. Almost none come from a neutral perspective?
Again I wonder who would be motivated to put the time and effort in to make a documentary about something they didn't feel one way or the other about? Even when they try to be balanced, it's usually pretty evident which side they favour. Documentaries are usually about teaching you something, and that's rarely "this thing exists and I don't care how you think about it".
I'm not trying to belabour the point just to be pedantic, I'm just genuinely curious about the concept of documentaries being objective or neutral. I don't think they have any responsibility to be, and that they usually aren't, so I'm legit intrigued that this is an expectation some people have.
"Daddy issues" is such a gross term and thinking a woman can't have an independent view unrelated to her dad's sex life is also gross (and speculative and irrelevant).
Yes kind of agree with you, it was a bit harsh...so I was removing it. Though in this case I think it may be relevant considering that particular family history.
But sometimes there maybe an underlining reason for certain morals. When you are familiar with her father's past and affairs, it makes you wonder if it might be.
Though I believe that is up to her figure out on her own and totally speculative.
Yeah, irrelevant was a bad choice of words. I do think the past is important, I just hate the term daddy issues and think the speculation is invasive and weird. Wasn't one of the complaints about HGW that it was prying into family life? I imagine saying we were all just camgirls because of "daddy issues" would've gotten a similar reaction to the one I gave, even if it might be true for lots of us.
curvyredhead
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I think this has been said before....
I like to imagine those who were involved all had the best intentions...and still might not see any wrong doing
I also agree that docs are rarely nutural regardless of topic. Even the best attempt at shooting a well rounded view on a topic will end up leaving something out, or allow a basis to show in an edit etc.
I like to think that documentary series was shot on any profession would not have people in that profession feeling they were not represented correctly..esp another profession that does not have a clear cut definition or a list of duties/responsibilities/tasks.
But maybe I am wrong.
Also--I just watched the last esp...and I can't tell if I am supposed to feel bad for this girl or what. I wanted to be all "omfg she doesn't deserve such harsh charges" and then watch her pretty much say she still doesn't understand what she did wrong. She is literally equating the other content she saw streamed on periscope (specifically fights) to what she streamed. I am not into the idea of people physically fighting, or people streaming it either---but if this girl can't see the difference between a planned consented fight between two people, and the rape of an underage girl.....there is clearly a bigger issue.
I like to imagine those who were involved all had the best intentions...and still might not see any wrong doing
I also agree that docs are rarely nutural regardless of topic. Even the best attempt at shooting a well rounded view on a topic will end up leaving something out, or allow a basis to show in an edit etc.
I like to think that documentary series was shot on any profession would not have people in that profession feeling they were not represented correctly..esp another profession that does not have a clear cut definition or a list of duties/responsibilities/tasks.
But maybe I am wrong.
Also--I just watched the last esp...and I can't tell if I am supposed to feel bad for this girl or what. I wanted to be all "omfg she doesn't deserve such harsh charges" and then watch her pretty much say she still doesn't understand what she did wrong. She is literally equating the other content she saw streamed on periscope (specifically fights) to what she streamed. I am not into the idea of people physically fighting, or people streaming it either---but if this girl can't see the difference between a planned consented fight between two people, and the rape of an underage girl.....there is clearly a bigger issue.
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I pretty much view marijuana much differently than the harder shit like alcohol, opoids, coke, meth, etc., too.
The only reason I thought it funny is because when she mentioned it in the AVN article, I wondered if maybe part of the issue she had with the episode was the bong passing scene.
If minors can not legally consent, is it time to start punishing camsites/clipsites/pornsites/tubesites/social media sites that make explicit sexual content easily accessible to minors with no more than a "I agree" checkbox (and some not even that)? Is it time to take their profits?
These questions are rhetorical; I don't have an answer. I am not advocating this either.
Still don't know what to make of it. In that essay she makes some good points (don't agree with her completely). And I don't really find her tone as objectionable as I think some do.
I looked out in the back yard one day, saw one of my kids holding a smaller kid down, acting like he was forcing a sexual act on him. Shit came to a full stop. I asked him "What do you think you are doing, and where did you learn it?" The answer? He saw it watching pro wrestling.
After I finished "discussing" the matter (and how to conduct himself), if I had been able to speak publicly and loudly to the pro wrestling community, I believe I could have easily outdone Rashida Jones tonewise. Would I have been incredibly casting judgment if I had? Don't know.
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https://reason.com/blog/2017/04/26/hot-girls-wanted-docu-series-exploits-se
Has a little more about the alleged shenanigans by the producers.
Porn producer and performer Jay Taylor concurred with Knight. "They lied about the nature of the project to get us to sign releases," Taylor told me Tuesday on Twitter. "We ASKED if it was HGW, and they swore up and down it wasn't."
Has a little more about the alleged shenanigans by the producers.
Porn producer and performer Jay Taylor concurred with Knight. "They lied about the nature of the project to get us to sign releases," Taylor told me Tuesday on Twitter. "We ASKED if it was HGW, and they swore up and down it wasn't."
I got a chuckle at the thought of neutral documentaries also. I watch pretty much every PBS Frontline and they are never neutral, PBS even has documentary series called POV (point of view.) The closest thing I've watched to a neutral documentary this century was the BBC series Planet Earth, and even it was pretty Pro-Environment and pro-Animal
Anytime you try and explain a controversial subject, at least one side is going to complain that their side of the story isn't being portrayed fairly.
I imagine that both religious conservatives and the Anti-porn feminists would complain, that not enough scenes were shown of sex-workers being victimized, exploited, doing drugs, and committing unspeakable sins.
The last episode was my least favorite of the series, and I also was ambivalent about Marina. Maybe it was just her introversion and personality but she came off as not being very remorseful and still being clueless about understanding what she did a wrong. I do think the technology can make us desensitized and we forget there are actually humans involved and not just images on a screen.
I have been accused multiple times by anti-SWs of being part of the "pimp lobby" because I talk about SW from the perspective of a white college student who grew up middle class, so obviously my experience is not representative of REAL sex work which is all tragedy and violence.
The funny thing is, I don't totally disagree with them and I think drawing lines between the various types of SW is a vital part of acknowledging that certain sects are more dangerous, more prone to exploitation, and more full of vulnerable women. But, I don't think anyone saying "my SW experience has been ______" should be silenced or told it doesn't count just because it isn't the worst. Everyone's got something to add to the convo and it's dishonest to me to write off someone's opinion because it doesn't support their agenda. Especially bugs me when it's a white college-educated woman who's never done sex work telling me not to speak for sex workers. What the fuck are you doing then?!
That goes both ways though, I've unfortunately seen pro-SW activists at times dismiss or silence those who are critical by saying "just because you had a bad experience, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the industry" or implying it's an anomaly or whatever. Like @IsabellaSnow said, acting like the industry is perfect and anyone who disagrees is wrong is just silly. And in that case it especially bugs me when it's someone from a safer sect of sex work dismissing someone from a less safe one.
(As an aside, this thread has been a really interesting discussion and I'm glad to be reading all your thoughts, everyone.)
That is really fucked up and terrible.
One of the directors of HGW directed a 2012 documentary called
Sexy Baby. Its no longer available on Netflix but it is on itunes and Google Play.
Sexy Baby. Its no longer available on Netflix but it is on itunes and Google Play.
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I am not anti-SW, not calling you a pimp
. No agenda here; just an observation.There is lot of difference between
- a beautiful young white woman who is making enough bank to go to Europe to do her drugs, whose biggest problem atm is her distant family finding out she's prancin around in her undies on Periscope, who is wailing because she left her real first name on her Facebook page.....(media inspired caricature)
- and a young woman who was born into a situation where she honestly didn't have a realistic shot, she got turned out way too young, she's getting roughed up on the goddamn streets, and everybody in her local community knows all about her nastiness. (somebody I knew irl)
Somebody like @Booty_4U will happily throw sex worker number 2's pain in to her victim statistics under the the SW flag; but when is her poor black ass going to start popping up in the all the informative links Guy is posting? Or do we need to set her up in a cam room and get her on Twitter before that can happen?
Do we just borrow her pain when it is convenient, then forget about her and leave her voiceless when get our labias in a knot over Rashida Jones?
Read a little rant about how "feminism" is all about the beautiful young white women; didn't agree with it entirely, but I could certainly understand why they felt that way.
Not trolling you here, I think your thoughts are as intelligent and rational as any I have read in this thread. I don't want to make light of issues you have to deal with either. Not disagreeing; just venting a little about what I see as a huge disconnect, and a lot of misguide outrage.
I mostly understand the sex worker solidarity concept, don't say that camgirl is better than a prostitute or call girl better than porn star who does gang bangs. But I do find strange not to acknowledge that there is a wide range of experiences and vast differences in the work. For many girls (and guys) sex work is a crappy job, with some potentially serious short and long term consequences. The chances of becoming rich via sex work are not very high. Documentaries should at least touch on negatives even if there isn't the main focus. Films about a subject as glamorous and prestigious as astronauts, do point out that dying is a real risk, and divorce is the norm. So it would dishonest for a documentary about sex work not to do the same.
Even the difference among camgirls is huge. One of the things I liked about Camgirlz is that showed camgirls who weren't all young, very pretty white girls with big boobs. They had older models and woman of color. They didn't discuss that as far as making big bucks, pretty thin white girls had a big advantage. However, the one thing Camgirlz did that I found very misleading is what it showed girls doing on a cam. On cam they sang, they danced to cool light show, they wore horseheads, they mimed, they were ventriloquists, they partied. The one thing Camgirlz didn't show camgirls doing was getting naked and masturbating, which is how most camgirls make most of their money.
That is the one thing, that I thought CGW:TO did which was very honest was show the sexual nature of the job. The did it in a respectful way, but it was clear there was a virtual sexual relationship between Alice and Approximate and it was a big deal. On the other hand, as Isabella says, much of what camgirls do isn't that exciting. So both films were probably more interesting by featuring the unusual but more dramatic aspects of camming.
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How accurate this is, idk. Can't really sit through enough of it to make up my mind.
Most days I despise living in the United States of JerrySpringer. Leave it to the BBC to make me briefly grateful.
Holly Kingstown reviews the first episode and is not impressed:
http://straight.fleshbot.com/602074...rls-wanted-turned-on-episode-one-women-on-top
http://straight.fleshbot.com/602074...rls-wanted-turned-on-episode-one-women-on-top
Booty_4U
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It means that sex worker number 2 in my comparison has a clear place in the statistics used to justify some of the doctrinal positions you have shared.
And those doctrines are sometimes used to support a sensationalistic tabloid journalism culture that has never given two shits about her, and never will. Unless, of course, she is fortunate enough to wind up lying dead in the woods with 30 other women.
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