Camming to be featured in Hot Girls Wanted: Turned On

[Guy]

Bad news. Camming will be featured in an anti-porn documentary series on Netlix.
https://www.fastcompany.com/3069170...n-netflixs-hot-girls-wanted-turned-on-returns

 

[Bocefish]

Why is that bad?

 

[EspiKvlt]

Dear god, they turned this trash into a SERIES???????

Why is that bad?

Uh, because it's anti-porn whorephobic trash.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

it didn't look that anti porn? But I didn't see the first one...

 

[EspiKvlt]

it didn't look that anti porn? But I didn't see the first one...

The original movie is anti-porn propaganda. And Rashida Jones made it and is extremely whorephobic.

 

[Guy]

it didn't look that anti porn? But I didn't see the first one...

 

[Bocefish]

Haven't seen the series and I'll probably get a whole ration of shit slung my way for this... but with all the sex trafficking going on, the general public has a hard time believing a good portion of camgirls on the web or young women in the sex trade do so voluntarily with a healthy mindset.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Haven't seen the series and I'll probably get a whole ration of shit slung my way for this... but with all the sex trafficking going on, the general public has a hard time believing a good portion of camgirls on the web or young women in the sex trade do so voluntarily with a healthy mindset.

What you say is interesting and sadly seems true. Someone I have known for years told me recently that because I've cammed I have funded and encouraged illegal sex trafficking... Of course, his going to thai brothels or watching porn was apparently exempt from his moral compass. Seemed like an all to common irony, people are perfectly happy to hold judgement on others but feel they should be exempt when it comes to their own pleasures.

I was confused how a completely consenting adult choosing to make porn on her own is encouraging people to be trafficked. Surely with more consenting, happy camgirls, porn stars and escorts doing it completely legally there is less of a market for illegal sex trafficking. And while I am sure there have been those who have forced girls to cam, as far as I have seen from MFC the girls who make the most money are often the girls who love it the most. Those who don't appear to be enjoying themselves don't seem to make much at all. And why would you broadcast your crime so obviously where a girl could easily make an SOS?
I'm also pretty sure that MFC has banned various countries known for this sort of thing and doubt that Leo isn't secretly funding sex trafficking. Why would he when he has all these girls making shit tons for him legally and out of free will?

But it just goes to show just how little people know about webcamming. As a feminist I think it's great for the porn industry and people as it's porn made by women, you get to know the personality behind her, she isn't being sold as a robot, most camgirls will tell members their likes, dislikes and personal boundaries (i.e. that 8 inch dildo hurts if you go for too long). Generally I feel it's a time where you get to enjoy and explore your sexual fantasies with a real person without judgement which teaches men a lot more about female pleasure than a porn film (and possibly sexual partners) would. Porn isn't going away any time soon, nor is prostitution, so I think great if everyone can enjoy it and female sexuality can be shown more on screen without her being objectified aggressively by a male porn star doing things which look pretty painful.
I also think it's a great opportunity for women to explore their own beauty, sexuality and personality while meeting people they might not usually get to interact with. Since being on MFC and ACF my attitude towards men has gone from negative to very positive and I would never have had the opportunity to talk to so many people from different parts of the world of different ages. I know it sounds crazy, but every vanilla job I've worked in I've been treated as a sexual object, constantly getting e-mails or comments from male employees or propositioned by my male managers (I've even been fired immediately after refusing sex). I have had co workers pretend they're friends with me then block me from their lives as soon as I get into a relationship. This has never happened with camming. I'm still friends with my friends I had 5 years ago, I've been in several relationships in that time. Most wouldn't believe it, but camming is a world where I do not get negatively or sexually harassed due to my gender. It is the only work place in my life where I have not felt threatened or pressured by men, and if I am bothered I can ban in an instant. And yet it is the place I am inviting sexuality, but when I do get sexual interaction I am consenting to it. And I get paid 10x or more what I have had in any other job. Kind of a no brainer. It amazes me more girls don't give it a go.

 

[TashaRose]

Ugh. I really didn't like the original documentary. It's a bummer that it seems so difficult for people to understand that while sex trafficking exists, and is fucking awful, but there are so many people in the adult industry by choice, and are happy with that choice.

 

[Guy]

Ugh. I really didn't like the original documentary. It's a bummer that it seems so difficult for people to understand that while sex trafficking exists, and is fucking awful, but there are so many people in the adult industry by choice, and are happy with that choice.

AVN wrote a great article about the first one.
https://avn.com/business/articles/video/hot-girls-wanted-the-bullshit-continues-587800.html

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I did watch both the trailers, and I didn't get an anti porn vibe from the new one. It actually seemed to not present a particularly bad image of camming, though this could just be from the trailer. The original was very clearly anti porn and was showing the worst parts of the industry. Though I don't feel those parts should be ignored as I think it's fucked up how unregulated the porn industry is when it comes to who can become a "director". But in a documentary I feel you should get a rounded and non biased view so the audience can make up their own minds, which this documentary clearly didn't do.
So far I have not seen a newspaper article or a film that has really shown a true image of what it's like to be a camgirl. Often they focus on the craziest sexual acts you've been asked to do (and probably didn't even do and were only asked once in years), and how much money you sometimes make. It always seems a bit sordid and creepy, the image of the horny strange man sat at home in the dark masturbating over some young girl who's just thinking about the money! In reality most of the time it's just online entertainment, pretty much interactive reality tv of a flirty sexual nature.

Actually, edit to add- I just rewatched the newest trailer and can now see the anti porn elements in what they're saying.

 

[faekitty]

Oh yay. A continued series of a documentary that does nothing but paint sex-workers in a negative light.

 

[Mila_]

The first one pretended to paint a picture of what young girls in porn experience at large when in reality it cherry-picked just a couple of negative cases. It had an apocalyptic tone and I thought it was aimed at the soccer mom crowd, something for that demographic to clutch their pearls over and talk about in their next PA meeting... and then I saw it was produced by Rashida Jones so I realized it was made by a feminist for feminist reasons.

Whether SWs like it or not a large section of the feminist crowd dislikes us. Half of it is made up of anti-sex feminists who consider showing your body naked in any way is an "exploitation of the female body" regardless of whether or not it is done voluntarily. An example of this would be Emma Watson who claimed magazines "sexualized" her since she was 14, when the first Fappening happened she passed harsh judgement on all the girls who were in it and even went as far as to say "nothing like these videos/pictures will ever be found of me because I simply would never do such a thing"... and here we are.. a couple of years later and her masturbation and bath tub videos were exposed. It seems like she wasn't an asexual beacon of light, after all.

The other half is okay with sexual expression or nudity as art, but against of doing it for money. So something like SG or posting naked pictures of yourself to /r/gonewild would be deemed cool, but camming or stripping or escorting is dirty work done by dirty women who want dirty money from dirty men.

Now, I am not a feminist by any stretch of the imagination, I actually dislike that collective and the fact that they claim to speak for ALL WOMEN when clearly they represent a tiny fraction of us. I think a recent poll showed that only 10% of women self-identify as feminist.... so naturally I do not recognize or accept the term "whore-phobic" I think it is ridiculous, it is meant to stifle conversation and to demonize anyone who might have a legitimate criticism of our job. I myself do identify some moral problems with sex work that I try not to sweep under the rug even when I am a part of it.

BUT! and this is the important part... none of the criticisms or the faults I may find with being a prostitute, a stripper or a camgirl are MADE UP OUT OF THIN AIR. They are also not a misrepresentation of reality, which is what the first movie did. The feminist crowd will always attack SWs with the BULLSHIT made up argument of "human trafficking". Sure, human trafficking is awful, but it is a tiny, tiny minority of cases, the vast majority of SWs are women who are doing this willingly and having a good time at it. Sex work and trafficking are two different discussions with very distinct problems. Conflating them is not honest, it is just one more leftist fallacy to throw an entire category under the bus just because of it's exceptions.

I really hope this series is better than the original but I highly doubt it if the production team is the same or composed mainly of old feminist twats.

 

[AnonyMouse]

I seen 2 of these so called documentary type films regarding the camming world over the last few years, sorry forget the names but found them so unrealistic compared to the subject matter they were pertaining to convey. In other words utter crap

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Whether SWs like it or not a large section of the feminist crowd dislikes us. Half of it is made up of anti-sex feminists who consider showing your body naked in any way is an "exploitation of the female body" regardless of whether or not it is done voluntarily. An example of this would be Emma Watson who claimed magazines "sexualized" her since she was 14, when the first Fappening happened she passed harsh judgement on all the girls who were in it and even went as far as to say "nothing like these videos/pictures will ever be found of me because I simply would never do such a thing"... and here we are.. a couple of years later and her masturbation and bath tub videos were exposed. It seems like she wasn't an asexual beacon of light, after all.

I disagree with this, just recently Emma Watson said very clearly that feminism is about liberation and freedom to make your own choices, in her words "not a stick to beat other women with". When she refers to being sexualised by the media she is talking about being sexualised aged 14 against her will when her male co workers did not have to deal with that. I can imagine being that age playing a non sexual role having to deal with sexualisation before you've even had sex or understand it would be a pretty difficult thing to deal with. And I wouldn't say her saying she wouldn't do that is attacking women who do. Just saying that it won't happen because that's not something she's interested in. Plus, she is also allowed to change her mind.

I don't think a large section of feminists dislike sex workers, modern feminism (or third-wave feminism) is very much about freedom of choice (including starring in porn). I think a reasonable amount of young women (and young men) now consider themselves feminists. Feminism is just the belief that men and women should be equal. Second-wave feminism, especially radical feminists are extremely anti-pornography and I think are of the idea that women who do it are working against the cause. But this is an outdated view. I think there are many feminists who would prefer porn to be more female friendly and less about aggression towards women (which lets face it, a large amount of it is- I enjoy watching but fuck would I want to be the woman). But a feminist agenda is also to create safer environments for sex workers and a removal of the judgement given to them. I think they realise that if people stop treating porn stars and escorts like "sluts and whores" in a derogatory, shameful way then it could help end this abuse towards women not only in the sex industry. I think a large section of the world in general is still skeptical of sex workers, but many of those people aren't feminists and have their own personal issues with it. As for the feminists who are anti porn, generally being from a more radical point of view they tend to shout loudest so I can see why this impression comes about. But as far as I can tell from posts here and a poll made by Aella on twitter a lot of camgirls do consider themselves feminists.

I'd love to film a realistic documentary about camming from a non judgmental feminist perspective. As in actually seeing the good it does to women and men to have more realistic and interactive porn where the woman is in complete control. How it might actually change the porn industry for the better. I can't help but wonder if with women having the option to make good money camming or selling their own amateur porn will mean less porn producers will get away with bullshit. Problem is, even now a lot of women do not know how good an income camming can be or what it's actually like. I wonder if they did if we'd get less young girls going straight in for porn, instead choosing have a go at camming or selling their own clips first to get a taste of the industry.

 

[MFCGod]

I agree with @IsabellaSnow the trailer didn't seem negative

Watching the preview for the first movie however.. yes I can see peoples displeasure with it, painting girls as idiots with a 1 year shelf life (what?!) where they will be exploited

I was once interviewed for a BBC radio 1 documentary about girls working on TV call in shows and cam sites, they wanted to speak to a member as well as models

They were fair overall but they did chop and edit the questions to make things seem slightly different that what I actually said, here is my clip from it

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I agree with @IsabellaSnow the trailer didn't seem negative

Watching the preview for the first movie however.. yes I can see peoples displeasure with it, painting girls as idiots with a 1 year shelf life (what?!) where they will be exploited

I was once interviewed for a BBC radio 1 documentary about girls working on TV call in shows and cam sites, they wanted to speak to a member as well as models

They were fair overall but they did chop and edit the questions to make things seem slightly different that what I actually said, here is my clip from it

What I realised after watching it is that all the people they're interviewing aren't being negative about it, but the voice over is definitely trying to get at it being bad for everyone. It especially seemed to be implying the members who pay are sad lonely men who are wasting their lives on social media even if the girls are happy and content in their jobs. I guess now it's exploiting men? I feel like when you go down that path we could find people in any industry in the world and find people who spend too much, lose loads of money, don't get any benefits from it etc. Gyms? You could say they make people fit, but you could probably find someone who ended up with an eating disorder or taking steroids. Restaurants? You could probably find someone who gained too much weight/spent too much money on them. Bars? There will always be those who end up alcoholics or get their face smashed in by a drunk person (even though most people enjoy them safely). Shops? Most people use them to buy clothes they need, but some become shopaholics and the consumer industry ruins their lives. I do agree, some people spend too much time on facebook, computer games, camsites or just browsing around the internet. But I'd bet it's a minority that allow it to become a serious problem in their lives. It's ridiculous to focus solely on a minority when conducting a documentary.

 

[Mila_]

I disagree with this, just recently Emma Watson said very clearly that feminism is about liberation and freedom to make your own choices, in her words "not a stick to beat other women with". When she refers to being sexualised by the media she is talking about being sexualised aged 14 against her will when her male co workers did not have to deal with that. I can imagine being that age playing a non sexual role having to deal with sexualisation before you've even had sex or understand it would be a pretty difficult thing to deal with. And I wouldn't say her saying she wouldn't do that is attacking women who do. Just saying that it won't happen because that's not something she's interested in. Plus, she is also allowed to change her mind.

Emma Watson's reaction to the first Fappening was negative, and when she talked about sexualization she also meant some women were complicit with this form of oppression. Then, when people pointed out how much of a hypocrite she was when she did the topless Vanity Fair photo shoot she pulled the "feminism is supporting women choice" wild card out of her sleeve, like ALL feminists do when they get caught doing shit that goes against what they preach.

The same thing happened to Chloe Moretz. She first reacted negatively at Kim K's topless instagram picture, while at the same time she had posed semi-naked for NYLON in the past. When confronted by her hypocrisy, guess what she said? "Feminism is about choice!" For these feminists it is only about choice when the person making the choice is themselves and they are caught red handed participating in the same shit they bashed weeks before (or later). The rest of the time feminism is simply a stick to poke other women with to feel morally superior to everyone else without having to do anything to warrant that feeling. And guess who is really easy to put down? Sex workers and sexy women in general. "I dont need to do what SHE does to be worthy!" "My mom taught me that we are more valuable than JUST OUR BODIES!" "We need to be careful what example we set for YOUNGER women!" and "Your values were set by the Patriarchy!" in short: you are an enemy to women everywhere if you choose to embrace your sexuality and they are better than you because they have higher moral standards and don't "use" their bodies like you do.

 

[AnonyMouse]

I disagree with this, just recently Emma Watson said very clearly that feminism is about liberation and freedom to make your own choices, in her words "not a stick to beat other women with". When she refers to being sexualised by the media she is talking about being sexualised aged 14 against her will when her male co workers did not have to deal with that. I can imagine being that age playing a non sexual role having to deal with sexualisation before you've even had sex or understand it would be a pretty difficult thing to deal with. And I wouldn't say her saying she wouldn't do that is attacking women who do. Just saying that it won't happen because that's not something she's interested in. Plus, she is also allowed to change her mind.

I don't think a large section of feminists dislike sex workers, modern feminism (or third-wave feminism) is very much about freedom of choice (including starring in porn). I think a reasonable amount of young women (and young men) now consider themselves feminists. Feminism is just the belief that men and women should be equal. Second-wave feminism, especially radical feminists are extremely anti-pornography and I think are of the idea that women who do it are working against the cause. But this is an outdated view. I think there are many feminists who would prefer porn to be more female friendly and less about aggression towards women (which lets face it, a large amount of it is- I enjoy watching but fuck would I want to be the woman). But a feminist agenda is also to create safer environments for sex workers and a removal of the judgement given to them. I think they realise that if people stop treating porn stars and escorts like "sluts and whores" in a derogatory, shameful way then it could help end this abuse towards women not only in the sex industry. I think a large section of the world in general is still skeptical of sex workers, but many of those people aren't feminists and have their own personal issues with it. As for the feminists who are anti porn, generally being from a more radical point of view they tend to shout loudest so I can see why this impression comes about. But as far as I can tell from posts here and a poll made by Aella on twitter a lot of camgirls do consider themselves feminists.

I'd love to film a realistic documentary about camming from a non judgmental feminist perspective. As in actually seeing the good it does to women and men to have more realistic and interactive porn where the woman is in complete control. How it might actually change the porn industry for the better. I can't help but wonder if with women having the option to make good money camming or selling their own amateur porn will mean less porn producers will get away with bullshit. Problem is, even now a lot of women do not know how good an income camming can be or what it's actually like. I wonder if they did if we'd get less young girls going straight in for porn, instead choosing have a go at camming or selling their own clips first to get a taste of the industry.

I find today's feminism to be geared towards hatred of this patriarchy and men.
I also find it hypocritical to the extreme, they will call for the death penalty if a 21 year old guy who has sex with a 11 year old girl yet remain silent when a 21 year old woman has sex with a 11 year old boy. So is it okay for women to sexually assault minors,the whole young boy with the older sexy woman scenario but older men with younger girls isn’t ?
Debra LaFave, Jade Hatt and Haeli Noelle are just three cases that spring to mind.

Emma Watson is a champagne socialist and just like her elder peer Lily Allen, is irrelevant.

 

[MFCGod]

What I realised after watching it is that all the people they're interviewing aren't being negative about it, but the voice over is definitely trying to get at it being bad for everyone. It especially seemed to be implying the members who pay are sad lonely men who are wasting their lives on social media even if the girls are happy and content in their jobs.

There's a lot of lonely men on cam sites, I think that's fair to point out personally

I would class myself under that somewhat

 

[Shia]

Vice did an interview with Rashida Jones about her films. https://www.vice.com/en_se/article/...out-her-porn-documentary-hot-girls-wanted-186 . I will be watching this new installation on camming to see how they portray it, very curious to see if it has a "negative" tone or not.

 

[AnonyMouse]

There's a lot of lonely men on cam sites, I think that's fair to point out personally

I would class myself under that somewhat

I think it's more the way our society has gone since the internet and mobile phones really sprung into life in the late 90's
The day's of going down the pub to get pissed up and get your leg over are a distant memory.
Go to a Bar now and people at tables spend more time engulfed on their phones than interacting with other humans

 

[MFCGod]

I think it's more the way our society has gone since the internet and mobile phones really sprung into life in the late 90's

Maybe you just didn't hear about these lonely men because they didn't have a platform to let themselves be known

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Emma Watson's reaction to the first Fappening was negative, and when she talked about sexualization she also meant some women were complicit with this form of oppression. Then, when people pointed out how much of a hypocrite she was when she did the topless Vanity Fair photo shoot she pulled the "feminism is supporting women choice" wild card out of her sleeve, like ALL feminists do when they get caught doing shit that goes against what they preach.

The same thing happened to Chloe Moretz. She first reacted negatively at Kim K's topless instagram picture, while at the same time she had posed semi-naked for NYLON in the past. When confronted by her hypocrisy, guess what she said? "Feminism is about choice!" For these feminists it is only about choice when the person making the choice is themselves and they are caught red handed participating in the same shit they bashed weeks before (or later).

You are talking about two very young women who've been in a media since childhood... Could it be possible that they've learned from their errors? Part of being young is learning, and it's fine to express your opinion at the time, but you also have the right to change that opinion and not be a hypocrite. Or in your opinion do you have to make your mind up at 18 and preach that for the rest of your life ignoring all else?

I know that my opinions are dramatically different from when I was say 20. I think that being on ACF has helped me see a broader view of the world and the different opinions of people in it. You could probably find posts I've written here 5 years ago and find me completely counteracting the argument now. I am older now, I have learned more and seen more to change my opinions and views. I mean even Stephen Hawking, possibly the greatest mind of our time has disproved his own theories and has changed his mind on what he thinks is true. Having that fluidity is one of the reasons he has a great mind, it doesn't make him a hypocrite. Only ignorant people stick to their guns their entire lives without ever accepting new information.

The world is also not black and white. You can like one thing and not like another. Being a camgirl doesn't mean I am going to be good with every aspect of the sex industry. Being a feminist doesn't mean I can't be a sex worker. Having been topless on camera doesn't mean I have to like page 3 girls in a newspaper. Being a camgirl doesn't mean I approve of the messages written in lads mags. Someone having previously worked as a sex worker doesn't mean they can't express dislike for the industry later in life. These decisions don't make people hypocrites, they make them human. Which is good, humans are complex, we are not clones of one another.

And isn't it a good thing that these women are now saying that we should be able to choose to be topless? I don't see why we would attack women who are promoting our cause, even if they previously had different opinions. Maybe they're becoming liberated and are making the decision to explore their sexuality on camera and are telling the world that they've enjoyed it and didn't feel exploited. IMO this is a good thing and I will not condemn them for it. I've noticed from some of your posts you often mention practices which were common about 30 years ago but have changed since, I don't know if this is because of different schooling or different practice where you're from or if we're of a different age group. I am interested because some of what you mention is what I study, but we study it as historical influences rather than present day. Please don't take that the wrong way, I am interested in cultural differences. I have been very lucky that lots of people here have answered my questions, otherwise I'd just be on my little island learning this culture and what we're taught here and would never get to hear completely opposite opinions and have them properly explained so I can understand them.

 

[Mila_]

You are talking about two very young women who've been in a media since childhood... Could it be possible that they've learned from their errors? Part of being young is learning, and it's fine to express your opinion at the time, but you also have the right to change that opinion and not be a hypocrite. Or in your opinion do you have to make your mind up at 18 and preach that for the rest of your life ignoring all else?

I know that my opinions are dramatically different from when I was say 20. I think that being on ACF has helped me see a broader view of the world and the different opinions of people in it. You could probably find posts I've written here 5 years ago and find me completely counteracting the argument now. I am older now, I have learned more and seen more to change my opinions and views. I mean even Stephen Hawking, possibly the greatest mind of our time has disproved his own theories and has changed his mind on what he thinks is true. Having that fluidity is one of the reasons he has a great mind, it doesn't make him a hypocrite. Only ignorant people stick to their guns their entire lives without ever accepting new information.

The world is also not black and white. You can like one thing and not like another. Being a camgirl doesn't mean I am going to be good with every aspect of the sex industry. Being a feminist doesn't mean I can't be a sex worker. Having been topless on camera doesn't mean I have to like page 3 girls in a newspaper. Being a camgirl doesn't mean I approve of the messages written in lads mags. Someone having previously worked as a sex worker doesn't mean they can't express dislike for the industry later in life. These decisions don't make people hypocrites, they make them human. Which is good, humans are complex, we are not clones of one another.

I was using Emma Watson and Chloe Moretz as an example of a behavior that MANY feminists hold whether or not they changed their mind is irrelevant to this debate. Feminists don't fit into neat little drawers: "Oh! she is a third wave feminist!" or... "she belongs to the outdated second wave movement!" No. Feminists are messy, their ideas overlap, they support one thing today and another one tomorrow and even though the dictionary definition of the movement is "fighting for equal rights for men and women" or even "fighting for women's freedom of choice" it is obvious to many that this movement has nothing to do with those ideals anymore, otherwise more women would embrace the movement. But we don't. Why? because we realize that is not the goal of feminism.

If feminism truly was about freedom of choice for women, we wouldn't need feminism. We already had a movement for that. It is called INDIVIDUALISM. If feminism was about equal rights for men and women, we wouldn't need feminism as those rights are already written into every western country's constitution. It is evident that feminism is about a completely different thing when you see how feminists gang up against anyone who doesn't agree with them including feminine women and sex workers. Look at what they did to Kaley Cuoco when she dared to say she loves to cook dinner for her husband and let's him be in charge. They fucking ripped her apart to the point where her handlers had her ditch her husband and get a Hillary Clinton haircut.

And isn't it a good thing that these women are now saying that we should be able to choose to be topless? I don't see why we would attack women who are promoting our cause, even if they previously had different opinions.

No, it isn't. They are hypocrites who only say this after they got caught. Their views now have 0 value to me. If they had said "oh gee I changed my mind, I no longer feel female sexuality is expoitation! and I am sorry Kim K for bashing you publicly, I am sorry Fappening actresses for taking a dump on you all" BEFORE they got caught, then sure, I would support them. But not after. They can go fuck themselves for all I care.

I've noticed from some of your posts you often mention practices which were common about 30 years ago but have changed since, I don't know if this is because of different schooling or different practice where you're from or if we're of a different age group. I am interested because some of what you mention is what I study, but we study it as historical influences rather than present day. Please don't take that the wrong way, I am interested in cultural differences.

Most of the people who feel the need to defend a tribe like you do will always paint the dissenter as an ignorant, someone who comes from a backward country, or an alien. I am neither. I have lived in the US, in Canada, in Europe, in South America and in Asia. I have done a hell of a lot of reading when it comes to Critical Theory, Feminism, and marxist movements in general. My views are not the product of ignorance or of coming from a backward hellhole. Anyone who doesn't belong to the tribe can SEE feminism for what it is, not for what they claim to be publicly.

This is what feminist Anita Sarkeesian thinks TODAY about feminism and freedom of choice. I doubt any of you would claim she ISNT a feminist or that she belongs to an obsolete crowd.



Here is an article that paraphrases Anita's views and what a large subset of feminists believe TODAY. RIGHT NOW:

http://theconversation.com/no-feminism-is-not-about-choice-40896

If you don't feel like reading it, let me sum it up: they think feminism isn't about choice because that would be a liberal (or corrupt) form of feminism. To them feminism is about destroying the Patriarchy and in order to do this you can't support the women who, through their actions, are bolstering it. So feminine women = bad women. Sex workers = bad women. Liberal women = bad women.

It obviously isn't just Sarkeesian, there are countless feminists who hold these views. They get together and do symposiums in Australia, the US and Canada. They make up 99% of European feminists (the only notable exception would be FEMEN) This is the reasaon the international feminism symbol is a purple flag with a fist in the air.

 

[JickyJuly]

It would be great if instead of saying "anti-sex feminists" we just said "misogynists".
They shouldn't be allowed to veil their crap by hijacking a decent human sentiment.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I was using Emma Watson and Chloe Moretz as an example of a behavior that MANY feminists hold whether or not they changed their mind is irrelevant to this debate. Feminists don't fit into neat little drawers: "Oh! she is a third wave feminist!" or... "she belongs to the outdated second wave movement!" No. Feminists are messy, their ideas overlap, they support one thing today and another one tomorrow and even though the dictionary definition of the movement is "fighting for equal rights for men and women" or even "fighting for women's freedom of choice" it is obvious to many that this movement has nothing to do with those ideals anymore, otherwise more women would embrace the movement. But we don't. Why? because we realize that is not the goal of feminism.

If feminism truly was about freedom of choice for women, we wouldn't need feminism. We already had a movement for that. It is called INDIVIDUALISM. If feminism was about equal rights for men and women, we wouldn't need feminism as those rights are already written into every western country's constitution. It is evident that feminism is about a completely different thing when you see how feminists gang up against anyone who doesn't agree with them including feminine women and sex workers. Look at what they did to Kaley Cuoco when she dared to say she loves to cook dinner for her husband and let's him be in charge. They fucking ripped her apart to the point where her handlers had her ditch her husband and get a Hillary Clinton haircut.



No, it isn't. They are hypocrites who only say this after they got caught. Their views now have 0 value to me. If they had said "oh gee I changed my mind, I no longer feel female sexuality is expoitation! and I am sorry Kim K for bashing you publicly, I am sorry Fappening actresses for taking a dump on you all" BEFORE they got caught, then sure, I would support them. But not after. They can go fuck themselves for all I care.



Most of the people who feel the need to defend a tribe like you do will always paint the dissenter as an ignorant, someone who comes from a backward country, or an alien. I am neither. I have lived in the US, in Canada, in Europe, in South America and in Asia. I have done a hell of a lot of reading when it comes to Critical Theory, Feminism, and marxist movements in general. My views are not the product of ignorance or of coming from a backward hellhole. Anyone who doesn't belong to the tribe can SEE feminism for what it is, not for what they claim to be publicly.

This is what feminist Anita Sarkeesian thinks TODAY about feminism and freedom of choice. I doubt any of you would claim she ISNT a feminist or that she belongs to an obsolete crowd.



Here is an article that paraphrases Anita's views and what a large subset of feminists believe TODAY. RIGHT NOW:

http://theconversation.com/no-feminism-is-not-about-choice-40896

If you don't feel like reading it, let me sum it up: they think feminism isn't about choice because that would be a liberal (or corrupt) form of feminism. To them feminism is about destroying the Patriarchy and in order to do this you can't support the women who, through their actions, are bolstering it. So feminine women = bad women. Sex workers = bad women. Liberal women = bad women.

It obviously isn't just Sarkeesian, there are countless feminists who hold these views. They get together and do symposiums in Australia, the US and Canada. They make up 99% of European feminists (the only notable exception would be FEMEN) This is the reasaon the international feminism symbol is a purple flag with a fist in the air.

I didn't call you ignorant or say you're from a backwards country. Just that I also do a lot of reading too, I read at home all the time and I go and study it during the day. Psychology is my career path but I also study sociology, primarily Feminism. I have written long essays on exactly this subject from all points of views. What you talk about in modern day is what every single book on the subject and countless articles talk about as historical. So yes, I am curious why I am being taught something different to you and you don't seem to have read what I have read, yet you say you read a lot. Or maybe you have but have shrugged it off because it isn't what you believe in.

Third wave feminism has also been called individualism. Third wave feminism doesn't have strict outlines, the only thing it really agrees on is reducing rape culture and gender equality. It sounds like you are a third wave feminist even if you say you're not. By definition if you believe in gender equality you are a feminist. The reason feminism is still used as a word is because it is highlighting the issues that women face. If you just used equalism or individualism then women's issues easily get lost in the crowd as they have so many times before. It's not acknowledging the statistical evidence that women are not equal in any society and there is a big problem. This has a bit of information about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism

I can understand why you and others dislike feminism as a concept, when I talk about 2nd wave feminism it is what started in the 60s and died off in the 90s. It formed many different branches, radical, liberal, marxist, you name it. They formed different branches because like you they felt that other women did not speak for them and were not addressing their issues. This is not a good thing, it means women are not united and several of the branches were anti men so men would not stand with women either.
Third wave feminism is very different, it is about choice and freedom in making choices. It is about women standing together united rather than focusing on differences or making rules for women. The only thing it's very clear on is removing rape culture and getting equal wages. This is why I say third wave feminism is not to be confused with the various branches of second wave feminism. They are different groups with different agendas. Some modern feminists have not learned from previous mistakes, but a lot of them have.

Saying you dislike feminism because of a minority of radicals is no different from those radicals saying they dislike sex workers because a minority of bad cases. My point is not to judge an entire movement by a few people screaming loudest. There are many women who are trying to remove this negative stigma of feminism, and hey, believe it or not it is working. Men are starting to take sexual harassment seriously. In my country it's even been turned into a hate crime to catcall on the street or make comments at women in certain counties. Awareness is being raised when it comes to sexism in the media, in politics, in schools etc. Things are starting to change. But with women and men like you still shouting down feminism because of these minorities you are taking attention away from the true message, and are just as bad as these radicals which continue to damage the cause. I'm not really into fighting fire with fire. More an open mind and persistence.
I think me and you will rarely see eye to eye, we have clashed on other threads. You have your opinions and that's ok, but some of the things you say are a little willfully ignorant. I am sorry to say this, I am not doubting you read a lot and are very passionate about your interests, you clearly have looked at various sources of information, but a lot of your facts are outdated, extremely biased and a bit of academic reading, or even a quick google search could show why. Your lack of flexibility makes it very difficult to have a discussion with you without it feeling like a full frontal attack. Don't get me wrong, I've written some pretty controversial posts on here and have had plenty of disagreements, but I've always been open to new information and opinions. This is why I'm asking you about where you're getting your information, your information isn't exactly wrong either, it's just you seem to be missing a big piece of the jigsaw puzzle and I want to understand why this is. I want to know about your cultural influences and if feminism is different where you are to where I am which might explain this. I was not asking to try and demean your existence or experiences. I was asking because I live in a very small part of the world. Sure I have moved around a lot and lived in various countries as well as travelling, but people tend to spend time with those with similar opinions and education level which isn't really a realistic view of the world. Your view of the world is different from my view, and I would like to know why that is. Whether personality, upbringing or culture.

 

[Mila_]

I didn't call you ignorant or say you're from a backwards country. Just that I also do a lot of reading too, I read at home all the time and I go and study it during the day. Psychology is my career path but I also study sociology, primarily Feminism. I have written long essays on exactly this subject from all points of views. What you talk about in modern day is what every single book on the subject and countless articles talk about as historical. So yes, I am curious why I am being taught something different to you and you don't seem to have read what I have read, yet you say you read a lot. Or maybe you have but have shrugged it off because it isn't what you believe in.

You did imply that I am either ignorant or come from a country where these "views from 30 years ago" would be the norm. You just did it in a backhanded way. It is okay I am used to discussing things with progressives, they ALWAYS end up dragging the conversation to the PERSONAL level, discussing what my personal background is, or whether or not I have the right to speak on these matters instead of debating the argument being discussed. They also try to always tell you what you truly think even before you tell them yourself like you do here:

It sounds like you are a third wave feminist even if you say you're not. By definition if you believe in gender equality you are a feminist.

I don't believe in equality. I never said I did. To me women and men are distinct and should have different roles. I don't believe in social equality in any way, shape or form. I also don't believe in individualism. I am a reactionary and an essentialist. But thanks for telling me what my beliefs are.

The reason feminism is still used as a word is because it is highlighting the issues that women face. If you just used equalism or individualism then women's issues easily get lost in the crowd as they have so many times before. It's not acknowledging the statistical evidence that women are not equal in any society and there is a big problem. This has a bit of information about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism

I can understand why you and others dislike feminism as a concept, when I talk about 2nd wave feminism it is what started in the 60s and died off in the 90s. It formed many different branches, radical, liberal, marxist, you name it. They formed different branches because like you they felt that other women did not speak for them and were not addressing their issues. This is not a good thing, it means women are not united and several of the branches were anti men so men would not stand with women either.

Third wave feminism is very different, it is about choice and freedom in making choices. It is about women standing together united rather than focusing on differences or making rules for women. The only thing it's very clear on is removing rape culture and getting equal wages. This is why I say third wave feminism is not to be confused with the various branches of second wave feminism. They are different groups with different agendas. Some modern feminists have not learned from previous mistakes, but a lot of them have.

I know feminism history and all the theory, I don't need a class on it. I am talking about what feminists say and do today. The feminism of choice you are talking about is also known within feminist circles as pop-feminism. Feminism that is convenient to the Patriarchy precisely because it doesn't challenge it. Which is why things like Vogue, Beyoncé and a camgirl like yourself support it. As of "rape culture" and "the pay gap" both are myths. It has been debunked a million times by now, perhaps you should also read stuff outside the realm of sociology and feminism.

Saying you dislike feminism because of a minority of radicals is no different from those radicals saying they dislike sex workers because a minority of bad cases. My point is not to judge an entire movement by a few people screaming loudest. There are many women who are trying to remove this negative stigma of feminism, and hey, believe it or not it is working. Men are starting to take sexual harassment seriously. In my country it's even been turned into a hate crime to catcall on the street or make comments at women in certain counties. Awareness is being raised when it comes to sexism in the media, in politics, in schools etc. Things are starting to change. But with women and men like you still shouting down feminism because of these minorities you are taking attention away from the true message, and are just as bad as these radicals which continue to damage the cause. I'm not really into fighting fire with fire. More an open mind and persistence.

I dislike feminism for a million reasons, but mostly it is because I don't take anything they say seriously. Everything they fight for is a joke with no basis in reality and I can't support any movement based on lies. Especially when that movement pretends to speak for all women and is there with a clear political agenda that goes against everything I believe in.

I think me and you will rarely see eye to eye, we have clashed on other threads. You have your opinions and that's ok, but some of the things you say are a little willfully ignorant. I am sorry to say this, I am not doubting you read a lot and are very passionate about your interests, you clearly have looked at various sources of information, but a lot of your facts are outdated, extremely biased and a bit of academic reading, or even a quick google search could show why. Your lack of flexibility makes it very difficult to have a discussion with you without it feeling like a full frontal attack.

You keep saying you never wanted to imply I am ignorant, or come from a backwards place, but keep saying shit like this 3 sentences later. Again, it doesn't surprise me, this is the tactic tribe members use when faced with opposition: instead of addressing their arguments you simply discredit them through character attacks. Everyone from Jehova's Witnesses to Scientologists, to LGBTs militants to feminists will do this. If you feel under full frontal attack is because I don't take condescending bullshit from anyone, ever. And you have been dragging the conversation into the personal sphere, saying condescending shit to me, and derailing the thread for several posts now just because you are butthhurt that I don't agree with you.

 

[Nikola Tesla]

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Look at what they did to Kaley Cuoco when she dared to say she loves to cook dinner for her husband and let's him be in charge. They fucking ripped her apart to the point where her handlers had her ditch her husband and get a Hillary Clinton haircut.

Can anyone confirm this, point me to a source? (not contesting it, just curious)