Why aren't trans women allowed models only access?

[Submissivemaid]

Thanks for calling me a jerk, I speak four languages and english is obviously not my main one so maybe I'm losing something.
It's not about you, this is topic is everywhere and most cis women out there are saying that trans fellas shouldn't share our spaces because of the genitalia thing. They experience much more discrimination than us and I was just pointing that.

I obviously respect your opinion and your desire to keep your medical condition for you. I was trying to point the "people who owned a penis before", "vaginas", "periods" and all the genialia references that have been discussed in this topic before so excuse me, I wasn't talking directly about your experience. Sorry.

 

[Aella]

I'm late to the party, and only read the first and last few pages, but I wanna try to get out some thoughts

I wonder if the hesitance to accept trans women is a matter of trans women still having access to 'male privilege' or 'male societal role,' whatever that means? Regardless of self identification or presentation, they still have the ability, if they wanted, to inhabit a fully male role in society. As in, they probably still have male genitals, and were probably raised in a more male role, and as such could more easily pass as a man than a cis woman could.

And maybe on some level we consider the 'male role' as a threat, and we don't consider biological woman to hold this threat because it's much more difficult for them to inhabit the male role than it is for trans women to inhabit the male role.

I don't mean to make any sort of argument either way on trans inclusiveness on this forum, I think the issue is a grey one - but the fact that trans women have more power to inhabit a threatening role (even if they have no intention of using it) might make them feel scarier to cis women?

This isn't the best example, but I'm imagining a CEO at a company where I work coming to hang out with me after hours. The CEO might have no intention of letting her power influence our interaction, and might engage in behaviors meant to downplay her role (dressing down, not mentioning her job), and even if I try really hard to treat her informally, deep down there will still be the knowledge that, if the CEO so chose, she could make use of her role in a different context.

This isn't anybody's fault, it's not the fault of the CEO, it's a fault of the way society treats the CEO role - much as it's not trans women's fault that cis women might be more wary, it's a fault of the way society treats male roles, which the trans women potentially has access to.

Again: I am NOT necessarily agreeing with this, just trying to find a way to explain the hesitation of allowing trans women into delicate female spaces.

 

[Phoenix4987]

No rebuttal @Nikola Tesla? Are those alternative science facts? Do I need to list sources? Or cite different kinds of fish that change sex all the time? Even biology isn't clean cut. Chromosomal sexing and gendering is flawed.

Those would be called genetic mutations and outside the norm of the baseline that has been established and repeated for thousands of years. No matter what plastic surgery someone undergoes, it doesn't change their genetic makeup. Men who undergo plastic surgery to appear on the outside female, or go through whatever psychological reconditioning to make themselves believe they are female (and in turn force or manipulate others to believe it as well) are still men at the end of the day.

A man doesn't have a period, can't bear children, doesn't produce milk from his breast to nurture a baby, and all the other things a natural female reproductive system can do that even the best plastic surgery can't imitate in a man.

Whatever euphemisms they want to use to identify themselves as makes no difference to me and has no affect on how I treat a person. If you're respectful and kind to me, I will mirror that behavior right back.

However, at the end of the day, your sexual organs were grown in the womb of a nurturing woman for 9 months and aren't a choice. If you choose to overwrite the social role you have in the world, so be it. But you cannot change what nature has birthed you. You may be able to artificially take hormones, undergo plastic surgery, but you will never be able to just take on another gender and all of the intricacies the individual sexual reproductive organs of that gender.

Yes, that is primarily the difference between a male and a female in all species, not just humans. This is without going into the more complex difference between the brain of a natural male and female.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

Yes, that is primarily the difference between a male and a female in all species, not just humans.

Really? Are you sure.
Some species would not agree with you.

has some science:
https://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/capture-367.png?w=483&h=600

 

[AudriTwo]

I only skimmed the thread, but I wanted to throw in my two cents

I for one have no issue with transwomen wanting to join verified. On Stripperweb they have a a rule set in place to be allowed in verified, you have to 100 posts and be an active member for 3 months. You also have to be actively camming too during that period. Luckily there are sites out there that archive hours you stream and your actual stream too. Loveshooks, the mod over in camming connection, will come and check to see if you are online the times you tell her you'll be online. Say a code word, and you reply with said code. I think it's a very solid checks and balances.

 

[Phoenix4987]

Thank you for showing me there are some species which have unique properties in regards to their sexuality, but it isn't the norm across the entire board. And definitely not to humans.

 

[JoleneBrody]

I just want to throw my two cents in that I've never had any issue with trans women being allowed access to models only, though would prefer no male models for girly chat reasons. If we had a girly chat MO that included trans women I would be pretty happy about that.

I have however understood fully the discomfort Amber felt with the possible judgments she would have to make and know that I, myself would be very uncomfortable if I felt I had to judge someones Trans-ness. I think the plan she has laid out is pretty incredible and generous of her time.
The camming world has changed SO much since this forum started. Hell, Chaturbate didn't even exist when I first signed up here and I appreciate Amber giving so much of her time to mold this community with such a rapidly growing and evolving industry.

 

[BiancaBaker]

I've never had any issue with trans women being allowed access to models only, though would prefer no male models for girly chat reasons. If we had a girly chat MO that included trans women I would be pretty happy about that.

This is exactly how I feel.

And same as men having access to location threads, etc.

 

[AmberCutie]

And same as men having access to location threads

If you ladies start new ones of those in the new MO areas that are open to all, that's on you. As I keep saying, all the previous threads will not be open to the new folks that get approved for the new MO.

 

[AmberCutie]

that's on you

And I don't mean to sound blunt with this sort of reply, but all day both in private DM/PMs as well as some open threads, I've been saying the same thing all. goshdang. day.

The only subforum staying in-tact is the MFC one, which will not be open to anyone who does not have an approved and active MFC profile. Which means it's just girls.

 

[Lexi Emerson]

And I don't mean to sound blunt with this sort of reply, but all day both in private DM/PMs as well as some open threads, I've been saying the same thing all. goshdang. day.

The only subforum staying in-tact is the MFC one, which will not be open to anyone who does not have an approved and active MFC profile. Which means it's just girls.

Sorry to bug you more with questions but just an idea I had for the girls who are worried about it... would starting a location thread in the MFC forum that both MFC girls and all the grandfathered in models not necessarily on MFC could reply to without the worry of males seeing it be a nono since it's not solely an MFC topic? Because if you're cool with a couple random threads like that that may be a little out of place but make it possible for girls to still do location connections without concerns, that could be a solution?

Not trying to tell you how to do things, just figured I'd throw an idea out there since you're getting so much flack. I'm sorry you're getting so overrun about all this. *hugs*

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I think what @uncoveredmanhole in his terribly unclear, rouindabout and overly complicated way is simply trying to ask what is the defiinition of a woman, or man?

well, in my defense, I did try a simple "what does [define a man/woman]?" ... but people seem to need it spelled out to them how they're being unclear.

It used to be a simple question to answer but now is so complex I literally have no idea and it doesn't even seem like there is an answer.

mhmm. apparently there are some branches of feminism a stance at the point where I have a questionmark, so maybe that's all there is to it (I assume they've tried equally unsuccessfully to produce an informative dialogue).

 

[AmberCutie]

Sorry to bug you more with questions but just an idea I had for the girls who are worried about it... would starting a location thread in the MFC forum that both MFC girls and all the grandfathered in models not necessarily on MFC could reply to without the worry of males seeing it be a nono since it's not solely an MFC topic? Because if you're cool with a couple random threads like that that may be a little out of place but make it possible for girls to still do location connections without concerns, that could be a solution?

Not trying to tell you how to do things, just figured I'd throw an idea out there since you're getting so much flack. I'm sorry you're getting so overrun about all this. *hugs*

Honestly I imagine something like that will end up happening. I don't want to promote the MFC section as the "girls forum" though, as it sort of defeats the purpose of the new format, but it's likely to be treated a bit like that.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

This has never been clear-cut and that's a good part of the reason things never changed in the first place. Yes, the world is a safe space for men, but it's not a safe space for gay men who there are a ton of on CB for example. Do these gay men not deserve excess in to resources and support that can help them in an industry that is quite harder for gay men and transmen to make money in?

is it harder inherently, or do guys (irrespective of orientation) just make less money (not in some wage gap myth sense, but purely because we're appealing to a smaller audience)?

I'd propose that the industry may be even harder for straight men. life is easier, but camming is harder, since the predominant fanbase and customer base are gay/bi/homoflexible/heteroflexible/etc. males, rather than females), desiring to share gay fantasies, and see the male form in ways that may not appeal to females / be the way straight males are used to performing/conforming. (the exception would be males who can couples-cam, which would draw a bigger audience than gay couples-cams or solo male cams.)

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

A man has both the X and the Y chromosome. This is a man

A woman has two X chromosomes. This is a woman.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I am not meaning to single out your post Fandango.

so, your viewpoint is that "woman" is a handy brief synonym for 'female human', just as a "bitch" is a 'female dog', or "stallion" is an 'uncastrated adult male horse', or a "eunuch" is a 'castrated male human'? nothing more than a shorthand for a physiological fact?

whether or not I agree with you, I appreciate that your position is plainly articulated, and I'm able to (at least attempt to) rephrase what you're saying, to confirm whether or not I understand your view. I only wish the people of contrary views were capable of doing the same (i.e., actually offering a contradiction, an explanation, an alternative hypothesis).

 

[Finley]

Straight men have it the hardest in this industry? Really? K

 

[AudriTwo]

Straight men have it the hardest in this industry? Really? K

I think if you are looking at the performer aspect of the industry, not behind the scenes. Straight males who only market themselves to women do have a lower audiences. Only because women don't usually have same sexual libidos as men.

 

[CharlieCharma]

I'd propose that the industry may be even harder for straight men. life is easier, but camming is harder, since the predominant fanbase and customer base are gay/bi/homoflexible/heteroflexible/etc. males, rather than females), desiring to share gay fantasies, and see the male form in ways that may not appeal to females / be the way straight males are used to performing/conforming. (the exception would be males who can couples-cam, which would draw a bigger audience than gay couples-cams or solo male cams.)

Wait, I have to deal with fantasies I'm uncomfortable with everyday. Guys asking me to pretend to be underage. Guys asking me to roleplay non-consent. Also, where do you get this idea that I wanna see dick? I open cams. It's always a dick. Also, I get men pretending to be women and actual women who want shows and I'm straight.

The customers I see will not be the same as the customer a man sees. It would be the same kind of customer a transgender woman sees. It makes sense for transgender women cam models to be grouped with women cam models because we have the same clientele. It doesn't make sense for cam models who are men to be grouped with me when we will rarely see the same clientele. Also, transgender women are women so I feel comfortable talking to them about woman stuff.

Everybody has to do shit they don't wanna do so get the fuck outta here with the "straight men have it harder" nonsense.

 

[Finley]

I think if you are looking at the performer aspect of the industry, not behind the scenes. Straight males who only market themselves to women do have a lower audiences. Only because women don't usually have same sexual libidos as men.

Oh definitely, they have a much smaller market. If you want to make it in this industry as a male you pretty much have to be open to performing for men. That being said... straight men do not deal with the amount of stigma women deal with (not saying it doesn't happen, but straight men are far more likely to get high fived and congratulated for having such a great job or profiting off sex while women are far more likely to be labeled as p-slurs, have to fight for custody of their kids, be assaulted, and the list goes on). We also deal with men all day every day, which brings even more things to the forefront.

 

[VeronicaChaos]

This is a bit of a tangent, I apologize.

It seems to me we live in a culture where if someone isn't doing something the way you want them to, the course of action is to complain about it.

I want to point out that even though this is a topic that comes up heavily about once a year, I have never ONCE seen someone offer to make their own trans-inclusive ladies only model forum.

People complain about the way someone else is doing something and then when they offer a solution they don't like it because it's not the one they wanted. I think it's unfair to expect others to do things exactly the way you want them to, and then complain about the solution offered.

Recently the ADA complained about Berkeley's free online courses not being accessible for disabilities. To comply, they are just taking them all down.

I guess what I'm trying to say is be the change you want to see or something like that, and maybe check entitlements when using services nobody is entitled to.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I think if you are looking at the performer aspect of the industry, not behind the scenes. Straight males who only market themselves to women do have a lower audiences.

and, to clarify. I mean also that straight males who market themselves to gay males, still have a lower audience (just as women have a lower audience than couples... it's just how the niches go), and moreover they may not be as capable at the mindgame of camming to appeal to the gay audience as gay males for their audience or straight women for their audience, making it 'harder' because they're less well suited for doing what earns money in the industry.

. . . women don't usually have same sexual libidos as men.

that's one more variable to note, too. -- the ability to do cumshows ad infinitum! lol. I wish I could cum 4 times a day, I could make 4 times as many tks, since that's a huge part of what tippers are after.

 

[Finley]

and, to clarify. I mean also that straight males who market themselves to gay males, still have a lower audience (just as women have a lower audience than couples... it's just how the niches go), and moreover they may not be as capable at the mindgame of camming to appeal to the gay audience as gay males for their audience or straight women for their audience, making it 'harder' because they're less well suited for doing what earns money in the industry.


that's one more variable to note, too. -- the ability to do cumshows ad infinitum! lol. I wish I could cum 4 times a day, I could make 4 times as many tks, since that's a huge part of what tippers are after.

The adult industry is one of the few women dominated industries in the world. We've been dealing with what you are trying to debate since the beginning of time. Men love whining when they aren't at the forefront

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Wait, I have to deal with fantasies I'm uncomfortable with everyday. Guys asking me to pretend to be underage. Guys asking me to roleplay non-consent.

fair point. though I think 'have to' is a bit strong.
non-consent role/age-play is forbidden, just as fisting is, so being requested to do it isn't a big thing, you can just dismiss it. worse is the permissible stuff you just don't like, since that means they can get it from a competing model.

Also, where do you get this idea that I wanna see dick?

LOL. you're talking to the wrong guy. I know my guys want to see dick, but I know girls (in general) prefer to see my stomach or even just a cute smile.

gay guys though, man. little big, big dick. soft dick, hard dick. dick in your hand, dick helicopter in your face, helmets and turtlenecks, dick POV, dick thrusting. it's a Dr Seuss book how they love dick! So I can totally understand why a gay guy would send dick pics to someone, but I don't get why straight guys think it's a good idea.

 

[Rose]

I want to point out that even though this is a topic that comes up heavily about once a year, I have never ONCE seen someone offer to make their own trans-inclusive ladies only model forum.

Exactly. The last time this issue came up we created public threads regarding websites to allow all genders in an attempt to be more inclusive, but nothing else ever came of said complaints and not too many people actually took advantage of them.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

The adult industry is one of the few women dominated industries in the world.

well, if you agree I don't know why you took issue with my post in the first place.
cheers

 

[SMuser69]

The adult industry is one of the few women dominated industries in the world. We've been dealing with what you are trying to debate since the beginning of time. Men love whining when they aren't at the forefront

You have to understand it's not woman dominated because women are the best at it. It's dominated because the largest customer base is men looking for women. Men sports dominate all professional sports not because there are no women sports it's because the largest consumer group of sports is men wanting to watching other men play them. It's like saying fast food is the best restaurant experience just because fast food is the largest food service industry. The shortage of male teachers isn't because there aren't men that want to teach it's because men that have that level of knowledge often can get better paying jobs than teaching.

I've never met a woman that told me, "I want a career in sex performance because that's where the women are at". Money and customers create industry not who the workers are.

Also the adult industry may have more women employee and contractors but I can assure you the person that makes the most money every year on MFC are the male owners.

 

[Vera]

I acknowledge the amount of douchenozzlery/hypocrisy in my comment but, aren't there better things we could all be doing rather than arguing in circles with people who will not change their minds? And it goes both ways. We all have opinions, we don't all agree. This thread went from a question about the forum from a newer user, to Amber getting the squeeze put on her for having the gall (THE GALL!) to put out an incredible resource on her own time, to a totally unproductive pissing match. This is the last time I am looking at the thread because it's aggravating to see it come to this. We are all smart, hardworking people. We have different views. The forum changes are scary and exciting but let's give each other a break. This is not the right foot to start out on.

Y'all, it's been said before. This stuff makes Amber look bad, and doesn't do anything for site relations.

Go get on cam and make some $, or insert member equivalent. That's where I am headed.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Everybody has to do shit they don't wanna do so get the fuck outta here with the "straight men have it harder" nonsense.

you've kinda contradicted yourself, if you're saying we're all equal in doing what we don't want to do, but orders of magnitude different in how much money we earn, then you're saying it's harder for some than others. (it's harder for the trans niche, it's harder for uglier people, it's harder for non-english speakers, there are plenty of variables to consider. it's probably the easiest for a conventionally hot young english-speaking bi white chick awake US-hours, but every other gradation is 'arguable', not 'fuck outta here' territory.).

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I can assure you the person that makes the most money every year on MFC are the male owners.

well, there are Beyonces and Oprahs in the world who're quite capable of funding this kind of scheme if they want to, it's not like it's inherently something men can succeed at better than women can like a million dollar basketball career.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I acknowledge the amount of douchenozzlery/hypocrisy in my comment but, aren't there better things we could all be doing rather than arguing in circles with people who will not change their minds? And it goes both ways. We all have opinions, we don't all agree.d.

it's relative. if you don't care about something, even just sitting outside feeding the sparrows could be a better thing to do than talk about it.

for me, Diderot's caution about censorship (which we could here rephrase and water down to a concern about mere apathy) applies: "It seems to me that if one had kept silence up to now regarding religion, people would still be submerged in the most grotesque and dangerous superstition ... regarding government, we would still be groaning under the bonds of feudal government ... regarding morals, we would still be having to learn what is virtue and what is vice. To forbid all these discussions, the only ones worthy of occupying a good mind, is to perpetuate the reign of ignorance and barbarism."

sure, everyone has their own opinion, but if the opinion is 'blacks are inferior to whites' or something, don't you want their opinion to change to one that is better informed? how will that happen without somehow educating them out of their ignorance? should we wait for dumb luck or the slow progress of new generations to improve in 20-year breeding cycles what could be improved in a few hours of conversation?