Why aren't trans women allowed models only access?

[Lexi Emerson]

indeed, you possibly can.
I have never looked at what scientific definition this or that government adheres to for determining sex/intersex/etc.
Do they just use genitals like a layman? (probably), or chromosomes, or what?
And does changing your genitals mean you have to change your birth certificate?--if I was in a penis-removing accident, would I have to change my birth certificate to call me a female? if I had a hormone anomaly from birth? am I changing my sex, or am I merely changing the outward appearance of primary indicators of my sex? Getting a tan doesn't mean I'm not Caucasian anymore, it just means I'm not pale.

I don't know how the hell it is 2017 and people are acting this ignorant about this.

Please just pick up a book. Scour the Internet. Do anything to enlighten yourself because people have done plenty to explain here and it's very clear you just wanna go in circles.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

sounds like you're bored as fuck and asking questions for fun.
Maybe go to school for these questions and study them instead of arguing them endlessly on the internet.

see my earlier reply. same reason I wouldn't go to a seminary for an S.T.D.

I was speaking of this
Wtactualf?

wtf back atcha...

how does not identifying with the gender commonly correlated with the sex listed on your birth certificate have a massive, constant, every single day impact on your personal safety? the personal safety bit intrigues me the most.
if I'm a woman but my birth certificate says nothing about me being a woman, but says I'm male (this woman does have XY chromosomes), how is my safety in danger every day?

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I don't know how the hell it is 2017 and people are acting this ignorant about this.
Please just pick up a book. Scour the Internet. Do anything to enlighten yourself because people have done plenty to explain here and it's very clear you just wanna go in circles.

I've scoured the internet and never found anyone educated on the matter (except for the odd blog that talks about various sects of feminism, including mine)
lots of activists who're very interested in virtue-signally, but no one who can actually articulate a coherent position.

 

[Aella]

I kind of hate the whole "educate yourself" thing. I mean, yes, familiarizing yourself with arguments from people you don't agree with is a good thing to do, but I also dislike the implication I feel from that attitude, that current popular academia must necessarily have it all right and we ought to learn from their ideas in full submission. Original thought is really important, and 'take a class' as an answer to objections, even if they are poorly phrased objections, is something that really rubs me the wrong way.

Ideally we should be steelmanning our opponent - interpreting our opponent's arguments in the strongest, most intelligent possible way we can, and responding to that.

In general I feel like both sides, when argued intelligently, have something to offer. I don't buy in 100% to the current cultural narration about how gender works, and I buy in even less to the people who are completely rejecting the idea of gender as a cultural construction.

Here, though, I definitely feel the urge to defend the "traditional" position more, because I feel like the liberal view is equally as unthinking and unoriginal, but even more loud and hive-mindish - even if I do tend to agree with them more in the end.

(I wrote a post related to this attempting to charitably outline both sides https://aellagirl.com/2016/09/11/are-there-other-genders/)

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I kind of hate the whole "educate yourself" thing. I mean, yes, familiarizing yourself with arguments from people you don't agree with is a good thing to do, but I also dislike the implication I feel from that attitude, that current popular academia must necessarily have it all right

they might be right.
but it's like being told 'read infowars.com' by someone who thinks there was no moon landing, or 'read the bible' or 'read the quran', as if the believer who can't articulate why he's so smug about the truth of his opinion will somehow be validated by this book he's fond of.
I've got no reason to have any faith in his book or his viewpoint given how woefully uneducated he comes off when pressed to answer very basic questions*. So, I take it as a kind of smoke-bomb... they need to escape being exposed as having no actual understanding (having plenty of lip-service to the popular opinion of their community, but nothing deeper than that), so they throw a hand-waving reference at you and run away hoping to be believed to be well read and that their opinion is somehow validated by the mysterious unparaphrasable contents of the great book from which they allegedly learned.

*by contrast, if I find arguments from Plantinga and find him to be a surprisingly erudite man for a believer, I might be pushed to read his books, since 'they might be right' has to always be our intellectual stance, and this one person has actually given me good cause to think deeper reading might be justified.

(I wrote a post related to this attempting to charitably outline both sides https://aellagirl.com/2016/09/11/are-there-other-genders/)

will give it a lookover. cheers.

 

[RebelleHart]

how does not identifying with the gender commonly correlated with the sex listed on your birth certificate have a massive, constant, every single day impact on your personal safety? the personal safety bit intrigues me the most.

Here are some highlights from a 2015 survey of over 28,000 trans peoples

"Nearly half (46%) of respondents were verbally harassed in the past year because of being transgender.

Nearly one in ten (9%) respondents were physically attacked in the past year because of being transgender.

Nearly half (47%) of respondents were sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime and one in ten (10%) were sexually assaulted in the past year. Respondents who have done sex work (72%), those who have experienced homelessness (65%), and people with disabilities (61%) were more likely to have been sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

More than half (54%) experienced some form of intimate partner violence, including acts involving coercive control and physical harm.

Nearly one-quarter (24%) have experienced severe physical violence by an intimate partner, compared to 18% in the U.S. population."

 

[Gen]

kind of hate the whole "educate yourself" thing.

I hate it because going on to read an article or blog or paper that leaves you with questions, and then having nobody to bounce them off of, sucks. If someone doesn't understand or agree with "you are whatever gender you feel", a Trans 101 page isn't necessarily going to answer their questions or deepen their understanding. Isn't it supposed to be allies' responsibility to do the educating? I guess if you're assuming the question is in bad faith then you can easily dismiss it but you also don't have to reply if you don't want to go back and forth.

 

[Aella]

they might be right.
but it's like being told 'read the bible' or 'read the quran', as if the believer who can't articulate why he's so smug about the truth of his opinion will somehow be validated by this book he's fond of.
I've got no reason to have any faith in his book or his viewpoint given how woefully uneducated he comes off when pressed to answer very basic questions. So, I take it as a kind of smoke-bomb... they need to escape being exposed as having no actual understanding (having plenty of lip-service to the popular opinion of their community, but nothing deeper than that), so they throw a hand-waving reference at you and run away hoping to be believed to be well read and that their opinion is somehow validated by the mysterious unparaphrasable contents of the great book from which they allegedly learned.
.

To a large extent I do agree - quoting authority is pretty easily used as a smoke-bomb, and a lot of authority thought is actually bullshit if you dig deeper. I would probably agree with you a lot if we went down a "list of authority thinkers" and pointed out the people we thought were actually terrible at thinking.

That being said, I think what's going on here (from the traditionalist perspective) is that there is a very obvious pattern (in the way gender works) and other people (liberal gender perspective) are attempting to virtue-signal by covering their eyes and saying "feel-good" things (you can be anything you want!) very loudly and aggressively until they start to feel true. Anyone who objects to the feel-good things must be people who want feel-bad things, and people who want to make you feel bad are terrible!

Does this actually happen? Yes it does. But on the other hand, it can be easy to dismiss 'feel-good' ideas as being weakminded, or 'truth-shirking', which I don't think should always be the case. What's happening on the liberal side is a lot of arguments about the way gender feels, about the way it feels to have society treat you a certain way based on your behavior. It's an emphasis on the recognition that so much of the way we see ourselves is just a story told by the people around us, and the following distrust of everything the story says.

This recognition is really important, and I think that is the gem in the liberal rough. Our realities are subjective, our feeling of gender is just a story.

I think 'why that story exists' is a really important question too, and that seems to be what traditionalist views focus on more. But I also dislike when traditionalist views see the liberal obsession with feel-goodedness and then dismiss the core of it.

....I'm just really long-windedly saying that both sides have important points about different aspects of gender and we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss people from the outgroup.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Here are some highlights from a 2015 survey of over 28,000 trans peoples

"Nearly half (46%) of respondents were verbally harassed in the past year because of being transgender.
Nearly one in ten (9%) respondents were physically attacked in the past year because of being transgender.
[etc.]

those are fun facts, but they're not relevant to any argument I've made.

the kind of data that would back up the safety objection to my argument it's not such a big deal what a document says would be showing how many were harassed (etc. safety issues) because their birth certificate or drivers licence had an 'm' instead of an 'f'?

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

attempting to virtue-signal by covering their eyes and saying "feel-good" things (you can be anything you want!)-

except a Sagittarius

Similarly, you find conflict with the vegan community from people who 'feel' that comparing 6-billion chickens slaughtered annually to the Jewish holocaust diminishes the value/importance of this genocide, when the actual intention (as you say with the allegation of feel-bad motives) of the vegan is a positive intention: to assert 'these lives are ethically important, TOO, and this is an atrocity, TOO'. It's only seen as diminishing the suffering and massacre of the Jews (et al.) by people who don't share the breadth of the vegan's empathy (people who the crowd might, in the cowardice of the crowd, rush to call assholes for daring to disagree with the conclusions for which they've provided no argument). The goal is to increase empathy, not decrease it, but people with no desire to broaden theirs claim the contrary and take great offense rather than offering some form of relevant objection. ...all pathos no logos. (and that's fine, it doesn't mean we can rule them uneducated...many a wise rhetor will use manipulative crowd-winning arguments to ensure their untruth wins, as Kierkegaard would say).

Anyone who objects to the feel-good things must be people who want feel-bad things, and people who want to make you feel bad are terrible!

man, are you part of the skeptic community or something?
you sound like you're familiar with a good deal of kooky communities and their reactions/strategies.

What's happening on the liberal side is a lot of arguments about the way gender feels, about the way it feels to have society treat you a certain way based on your behavior.

I'm sure it feels bad to be laughed at for believing the world is flat or we didn't go to the moon, but that has no bearing on an intellectual discussion about the truth-claims of the matter.
it's relevant to their lives, it's an important something, it's just not an argument on these truth-claims, it's a red herring taking us away from them. we can't fail to explore basic scientific or philosophical questions because someone might be sad about the galling effrontery of not being agreed with sans argument and sans comprehension.

And if minds are never changed, because no one ever actually provides arguments, you're always going to have plenty of bigots you'll have to deal with until mere social forces change things. the avoidance of discourse ('just read the bible') and emotional pandering ('jesus loves you'/you'll go to hell, sinner') helps no one on either side of the argument.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

If someone doesn't understand or agree with "you are whatever gender you feel", a Trans 101 page isn't necessarily going to answer their questions or deepen their understanding.

indeed.
I like to as much as possible not even make it a trans issue. it's a philosophical/linguistic issue to me, and the trans/cis distinction means it is a cis issue, inherently, which means we can talk about the cis aspect with cis people.

For that reason, I prefer to just broach the subject with intellectuals, but so often I find them replying 'well, I'm cis so I can't answer it for you, you'll have to ask them'. ... of course "asking" them, people who have to deal with shit as it is, is usually taken as trolling, so I would prefer to avoid it as much as possible. and, of course, just because they are something doesn't mean they're intellectuals about it -- a 15 year old kid might be a Christian, but he's no Thomas Aquinas (i.e., he's not an intellectual with respect to Christianity), so talking to him does not inherently have more value than talking with a Muslim or Buddhist scholar who also studied Christianity.

"you're in love if you feel you're in love" - tell me what it feels like to be in love, and I'll know if I'm in love.
"you are depressed if you feel depressed" - show me the newest DSM checklist and I'll find out if I'm depressed.
"you are whatever gender you feel" - ok, that's fine. tell me what it feels like to be a man, and then I'll know whether or not I'm a man. This doesn't have to be a women's issue or a trans issue. let's start with linguistics and find out if your scribbles are even words. that's all I want to do.

 

[swagger]

So as one of the resident trans people, I thought I'd chime in...

I've basically stopped coming here because there simply isn't much reason to be here if you're trans. There was some useful stuff to be had at first and I made some great contacts through here that I treasure; however, there isn't much point to hanging around if you're anything other then a verified cam girl. Still, it is Amber's site and she can do whatever she wants with it. It doesn't really bother me all that much. It is just a reality that unless you want to just shoot the shit, there isn't much reason to hang around here if you're like me. I appreciate what I've gotten from the place, at least.

I'm not trans or much into trans, but from your brief time on the forums, I dug your posts, is shooting the shit so wrong?

 

[MFCGod]

Here are some highlights from a 2015 survey of over 28,000 trans peoples

"Nearly half (46%) of respondents were verbally harassed in the past year because of being transgender.

If you asked a group of people who identified as being Goth or a sub culture like that, I wonder how similar the results would be?

I would imagine the instances of abuse on the street and physical violence might be just as high, especially in teens; I know from personal experience of dressing a bit "emo" or "scene" I was shouted at regularly in public when I was younger

It feels like there a difference in seriousness though between someone abusing a transgender person and a goth

Maybe it's the choice? you don't choose to be your gender but you choose the fashion?

They're both forms of personal expression though which people should be able to do (within certain limits)

I wonder if the people shouting the abuse realise the difference or if they just programmed to see "different" as bad

Are the people being abusive transphobic or just have a herd mentality and don't like to see difference

^ Does it even matter, maybe when it comes to helping curb it hmm

I'm just thinking out loud, not sure there is much point to this post sorry lol.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Maybe it's the choice? you don't choose to be your gender but you choose the fashion?

I'm just thinking out loud-

that's a really fun aspect of this discussion! (I suspect it has a lot to do with people's coy obscurantism)

one of my favorite ?women? almost exclusively wears sneakers, long pants, t-shirts, hoodies, no make-up, enjoys violent hobbies, she's aggressive and unrepentant, hilarious, swears like a sailor, prefers the company of men and gay men, likes to sleep with women, and has short finger-nails and long hair.
I dressed and acted like* that yesterday.
if I dress and act like that today, BUT today I see myself as a transwoman, what's going to happen to me? what new dangers are in my life?
...Maybe I better go back to yesterday's life.

*though in a lot of ways she's more of a man than I am...by traditional society's standards. so I'm not sure what to call either of us.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

(I wrote a post related to this attempting to charitably outline both sides https://aellagirl.com/2016/09/11/are-there-other-genders/)

if I dress and act like that today, BUT today I see myself as a transwoman, what's going to happen to me? what new dangers are in my life? or will I just have some sort of crisis because I'm not being a proper woman?
. . .
There are people out there who genuinely don’t adhere to either gender role.

indeed, so why validate and reinforce the tradition we're trying to escape? Why be so half-assed in the revolution. As you suggest, since neither role might fit a woman, and neither role might fit a man, not only do we have men women transmen and transwomen, we also have a lot of people who aren't accounted for, a 'none of the above' gender, with who knows how many variations unarticulated by the pigeon hole... and who knows what they mean (no one in the liberal camp even seems to know what the first two mean). If we're going to be inclusive, it would be silly to say 'not everyone is the same, so we recognise you and the importance of you having the word you want... but you only get to choose from one of these four words'...that's scarcely any better than 'you matter and, here, pick from these two words'.

why call yourself a transwoman or a woman or a transman or a man, why not just be whatever you are? You can call me a filthy Aussie 'til you're blue in the face if you want, but I'm a Kiwi and I'm going to get on with my life. Hell you could call me a race traitor or an grizzly bear for all I care, I don't quite know what you mean by that, and I don't see why I should care either whether you're right or wrong.

I might readily identify with NBA players or comedians, but that doesn't mean I'm one of them. We have some affinity, but why does it need to be any more than that? why does it have to come with baggage, or why do I have to claim baggage that isn't actually mine? why do I become a trans-comedian or a trans-NBA star? Why can't I just be me, and why can't 'me' be merely a person who might've been a good NBA player if I was one, but who isn't? Why do I have to be offended if someone says I'm not an NBA star? why do I have to assert that I'm a trans-comedian and make others recognize how much I have in common with professional stand-up comics? Why does any of this have to become an issue for me and why do I have to make it an issue for everyone around me? It seems like I could just get on with life rather than making it a big drama where everyone has to think and care about how special I am.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Why does any of this have to become an issue for me and why do I have to make it an issue for everyone around me?

been wondering that for the last few pages of this thread.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

been wondering that for the last few pages of this thread.

for you is it not an important political or social issue to try to make progress on? like all those kids dying in Africa, is it just kind of something we should joke about and otherwise ignore the so-called 'plight' of? I can't blame you for feeling that way, but it's hard for me to turn a blind eye.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

sounds like you're bored as fuck and asking questions for fun.

Like a Troll? I think yes.

like all those kids dying in Africa

Fuck the kids in Africa. Let em starve. Until you're willing to pay the shipping and handling to Africa just to send a spoonful of mushy peas and five pieces of boiled carrot, I'm still not cleaning my plate!

Whoa, flashback there.




And finally, where's a good Doghouse banner when ya really need one?

 

[Val Vega]

Although after seeing this last page, I can understand wanting to keep those forums closed to only a select few, lol.

 

[AudriTwo]

You can never change your chromosomes, but if someone wants to live their life as thier opposite gender, and it is not infringing anyone's rights, and it makes them happy, I feel like they should. Why does it bother you? Someone else being different?


Trans people are people end of the day, who want to belong in this society as much as I weirdly do and I'm sure anyone else on this board in their own way.

Some reading material:
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract
https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/gender-dysphoria

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

You can never change your chromosomes, but if someone wants to live their life as thier opposite gender, and it is not infringing anyone's rights, and it makes them happy, I feel like they should.

I agree. same with the star sign thing--be a sagittarius all you want, just don't expect the government to do anything about it.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract

it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find the same evidence about the friend I mentioned earlier. she seems to share a lot of the signs listed in your psychology today link that people with gender dysphoria have, but without having gender dysphoria. Though she's one of the smartest people I know, so maybe she's just aware that there's no inherent logical connection to warrant such a dysphoria,

I don't suppose you have access to the DSM V? (I'm trying to do a little deeper digging on what the psychtoday page outlines but doesn't define).

it's curious that they say "People with gender dysphoria desire to live as members of the opposite sex", how do I live as a female? show me the checklist. I have a strong suspicion that we're not dealing with anything more than prejudices, and the very people victimized by those prejudices are the ones so strongly insisting on the importance of maintaining them.

 

[JickyJuly]

Whenever trans topics come up, it seems like science gets brought in as the be all end all. Chromosomes! Genitals! I could be wrong, but it seems like the problem that trans people work against is the social construct of gender roles. If boys and girls weren't expected to like pink or blue or baseball or dolls, and we were just allowed to exist as humans wherever we fit on the gender spectrum without having to label ourselves and weigh our worth on how well we fit there, would trans even be a thing? Is that an offensive question? I just think it is weird that we accept all of the strings we attach to gender from the time a baby is born as normal. They're not.

Also, your birthday doesn't belong to you. It belongs to your mother. She suffered that day for you. How you feel about the date is irrelevant.

 

[MFCGod]

I just think it is weird that we accept all of the strings we attach to gender from the time a baby is born as normal.

Perhaps a lot of it in the west is pushed by consumerism, make a lot more money if boys and girls have different toys

 

[SaffronBurke]

Whenever trans topics come up, it seems like science gets brought in as the be all end all. Chromosomes! Genitals! I could be wrong, but it seems like the problem that trans people work against is the social construct of gender roles. If boys and girls weren't expected to like pink or blue or baseball or dolls, and we were just allowed to exist as humans wherever we fit on the gender spectrum without having to label ourselves and weigh our worth on how well we fit there, would trans even be a thing? Is that an offensive question? I just think it is weird that we accept all of the strings we attach to gender from the time a baby is born as normal. They're not.

Also, your birthday doesn't belong to you. It belongs to your mother. She suffered that day for you. How you feel about the date is irrelevant.

I think it likely that people would still be trans if we didn't have such strict gender roles. However, without those strict roles, someone being trans wouldn't be perceived as being as big of a deal socially as people currently think it is. A person would decide to use hormones and/or surgery to alter their body's appearance and everyone would go about their lives, because a person's body is nobody's business but their own.

 

[Thornn]

I think it likely that people would still be trans if we didn't have such strict gender roles. However, without those strict roles, someone being trans wouldn't be perceived as being as big of a deal socially as people currently think it is. A person would decide to use hormones and/or surgery to alter their body's appearance and everyone would go about their lives, because a person's body is nobody's business but their own.

As a trans person, I agree. Even science goes beyond basic xy chromosomes. For me, its not even society pushing gender rolls, its body/gender dysphoria.

That being said, I feel like a new inclusive section would be a good alternative. The models only section now has some sensitive material that people wouldn't want to share with people w/o vaginas.

 

[ExcellaExe]

Maybe it's just me, but I've always seen the rigidity of Western gender roles as weird. My people have always just accepted people who want to change their gender roles or gender in general (hell, you were even allowed same sex marriage and could adopt children with your spouse), so I guess that's why I'm always ??? about this debate.

 

[Sevrin]

it's curious that they say "People with gender dysphoria desire to live as members of the opposite sex", how do I live as a female? show me the checklist. I have a strong suspicion that we're not dealing with anything more than prejudices, and the very people victimized by those prejudices are the ones so strongly insisting on the importance of maintaining them.

For that matter, how are the cisgendered "supposed to live"? I have the feeling that most of us are guessing at it a lot of the time. We put up these fronts, and it might look like we're all secure in our sexual identities, but how many of us truly are? I was raised by women and learned how to shave by buying a razor and going at it and have gone through life trying to figure out the rest of how to be a man in pretty much the same way, and I'm far from certain that I'm doing any of it right. Now I'm at an age where I figure it's rarely worth worrying about.

Cisgendered people, because we have lived our whole lives as one gender have a certain amount of experience to draw on when we decide to adopt a given behavior in or react to a given situation, and we still often get it "wrong". Transgendered people don't have that lifetime of experience and certainly haven't lived through events specific to the gender they identify with like, say, without implying equivalence, their first period or first ejaculation, which make a huge impression on us as we go through puberty, that time when our bodies tell us what we have to look forward to as adults. I'd imagine that they experience these as events that contradict their perception of who they are, and my guess is that some may feel cheated that they will never have an equivalent defining experience as the gender they identify with. That has to create a certain amount of dissonance that you can never get rid of, and it's compounded by all the uncertainty that even the most cisgendered live with.

 

[AudriTwo]

Here is a radical thought, maybe we should let people, be people?

You need to subscribe to view or a one time purchase of $35 to view anything on the JPR. Bandwidth doesn't grow on trees

 

[yummybrownfox]

I'm taking a bit of a breather from ACF until next week (my bday is tomorrow, going to enjoy a break through Monday other than cam time), but before I do, want to remind folks to read through the thread before clicking reply, as there are posts in here that outline changes that are coming to the verification process and MO sections.

Happy Birthday!!!!!

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Whenever trans topics come up, it seems like science gets brought in as the be all end all. Chromosomes! Genitals! I could be wrong, but it seems like the problem that trans people work against is the social construct of gender roles.

I totally agree.
If someone makes scientific claims, you bring in science; if they make philosophical claims, you bring in philosophy. It's not always clear what people are arguing in this topic. Even in the psychologytoday article there seems to be some confusion of 'transexual' and 'transgender'*, as they claim people with 'gender dysphoria' often want to live as the opposite sex. You would think, if we hold these two as distinct and independent, that sex/science issue would be an additional diagnosis from the one relating to gender/philosophy.

*I know fetlife still likes these terms, but apparently the trans community isn't united on it.

WIf boys and girls weren't expected to like pink or blue or baseball or dolls, and we were just allowed to exist as humans wherever we fit on the gender spectrum without having to label ourselves and weigh our worth on how well we fit there, would trans even be a thing? Is that an offensive question? I just think it is weird that we accept all of the strings we attach to gender from the time a baby is born as normal. They're not.

indeed. that's why I find it fascinating that they're the ones most sure to perpetuate those expectations. it's like a self-victimization. they're buying into and perpetuating the very system that harms them more than anyone else.
This is why I seem to fall into that kinda gender nihilist branch of feminism. I suspect you're in a similar spot.

Also, your birthday doesn't belong to you. It belongs to your mother. She suffered that day for you. How you feel about the date is irrelevant.

that's an entirely new discussion I would love to have in the right forum.

“Creating new people, by having babies, is so much a part of human life that it is rarely thought even to require a justification. . . . Those who do indeed decide to have a child might do so for any number of reasons, but among these reasons cannot be the interests of the potential child. One can never have a child for that child’s sake.”
― Prof. David Benatar.

She suffered that day for herself, because she had concerns about adoption because she herself was adopted. We've talked about it.