Why aren't trans women allowed models only access?

[Vera]

@uncoveredmanhole

Didn't say I didn't care. This isn't about apathy -- read my post and you will see where I lie on the topic of this thread -- and while I appreciate your taste in polemics, this isn't what this was about. Besides, I am something more of a Camus kind of girl.

And with that, I leave you with an excellent podcast, as you and I have at least one thing in common.

http://philosophizethis.org/

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Didn't say I didn't care. This isn't about apathy, and while I appreciate your taste in polemics, this isn't what this was about. Besides, I am something more of a Camus kind of girl.

And with that, I leave you with an excellent podcast, as you and I have at least one thing in common.

http://philosophizethis.org/

nice
I'm happy to shift gears to 'why live at all?' before we worry about this minutiae about how to live well. j/k, have fun

(oh, and I don't mean to accuse you personally of apathy so much as to give an apologia for the general question of why some people might bother in what seems like unproductive mental effort to other people. That you have bigger priorities doesn't mean you don't care at all, I get that.)

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

It seems to me we live in a culture where if someone isn't doing something the way you want them to, the course of action is to complain about it.

I want to point out that even though this is a topic that comes up heavily about once a year, I have never ONCE seen someone offer to make their own trans-inclusive ladies only model forum.

amen.
how does that quote go, 'people write the books they can't find on the library shelves'? . . . If someone thinks it's important enough, they'll do it themselves.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

It makes sense for transgender women cam models to be grouped with women cam models because we have the same clientele. It doesn't make sense for cam models who are men to be grouped with me when we will rarely see the same clientele.

I'm not so sure about that.
I've seen a fair bit of 'let me see your dick' stuff in trans rooms from people who are seemingly fans, not trolls. the same kinda stuff you see in gay and hetero male rooms.
I've even been recommended a few trans cammers to check out by my followers, suggesting we have an overlap in clientele. I don't have a clue which overlap is bigger, so I won't make it a pissing contest

 

[CharlieCharma]

I'm not so sure about that.
I've seen a fair bit of 'let me see your dick' stuff in trans rooms from people who are seemingly fans, not trolls. the same kinda stuff you see in gay and hetero male rooms.
I've even been recommended a few trans cammers to check out by my followers, suggesting we have an overlap in clientele. I don't have a clue which overlap is bigger, so I won't make it a pissing contest

I share a few customers with my transwoman cam model friend pre-op. Also, you've quoted one comment like three times. Condense this shit in one post man. It's spammy when it's coming from the same goddamn comment on my end.

 

[AudriTwo]

(not saying it doesn't happen, but straight men are far more likely to get high fived and congratulated for having such a great job or profiting off sex while women are far more likely to be labeled as p-slurs, have to fight for custody of their kids, be assaulted, and the list goes on)

I disagree. I would say more on sexuality, yes. But sex work in general is believed to be morally corrupt for a large chunk people, especially religious communities..Like females, males also have social expectations. I think we can all agree that people can be absolute assholes.

I would love to see a study on this, cause I find it all interesting. On my hour research attempt, I found a good read on legalization of prositution that kinda touched on female and male counterparts of sexwork. Here

 

[Pluot]

In response to why I'm not making a forum of my own- I acknowledge that I do not have the time/energy/knowledge or patience to do so. I made this post because it feels like a small step towards change- it's what I have the time/energy to do. I figured I could use the tools I have available to myself to bring this discussion up. It's clear that many people feel the same way- I just ended up being one of many people that were concerned about this. I accept that since I was the one to bring this up, I invited criticism. I can understand the frustration about having to repeatedly talk about this subject and having no one make a new forum of their own. If I had the ability to do so, I would, but I am not one to push the boundaries of what I am able to do. Maybe in the future, when I am in a more stable place in my life, I can do more work to help promote the inclusion of trans and non-binary folks. That would make me happy.

I am just trying to do my small part to bring a bit more empathy towards trans women in this community. I am not trying to make myself look good, I only want this to be something that people are actively thinking about and considering. If this site could be one less place that a trans woman feels unwanted, I think that would be cool.

Anyway, Amber has addressed this, a change is on its way, and we don't need to keep arguing over opinions. I don't think I have the power to change anyone's opinion. That's on them to keep their opinion or do their own work to better understand the trans experience.

I hope y'all can understand where I'm coming from, but if not, that's cool too. This isn't about me or my ego.

 

[Gen]

profiting off sex while women are far more likely to be labeled as p-slurs

Guess I'm old but what is the p-slur...?

Exactly. The last time this issue came up we created public threads regarding websites to allow all genders in an attempt to be more inclusive, but nothing else ever came of said complaints and not too many people actually took advantage of them.

The number of openly trans models we've had posting in the time I've been here is so tiny. Hopefully this will make them feel more welcome so the people everyone is advocating for will come participate!! And hopefully the public threads (and the wiki Amber made for the same purpose) are helping people out, even if they don't join up and say so.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Guess I'm old but what is the p-slur...?

pornstar would make sense. but she probably means prostitute (since lay people might confuse porn with prostitution)

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I share a few customers with my transwoman cam model friend pre-op. Also, you've quoted one comment like three times. Condense this shit in one post man. It's spammy when it's coming from the same goddamn comment on my end.

one post, many comments. I have many replies, you might agree with one and facepalm the next. the machine is set up to encourage me to post in this fashion I can't apologize for that, I didn't build it.

 

[Finley]

@GenXoxo it doesn't have anything to do with being old, I'm 33 haha. But p-slur is prostitute because people use that as a derogatory term all the time

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

what is the best term people have come up with, anyway?

I mean, there are some cam 'models', and there are some cam 'strippers', and there are even cam 'exhibitionists' - is cam 'whore' the only term for doing sex acts for money on cam? if that's the case, then prostitute is just a rather clinical sounding name for what we (most, not all) actually are. 'camgirl' is more of a polite euphemism like 'street walker', than the best/most accurate/descriptive/befitting title.

 

[ExcellaExe]

what is the best term people have come up with, anyway?

I mean, there are some cam 'models', and there are some cam 'strippers', and there are even cam 'exhibitionists' - is cam 'whore' the only term for doing sex acts for money on cam? if that's the case, then prostitute is just a rather clinical sounding name for what we (most, not all) actually are. 'camgirl' is more of a polite euphemism like 'street walker', than the best/most accurate/descriptive/befitting title.

depends on what branch of sex work you fall under, but we're all technically sex workers. I personally like camgirl and sex worker because they both are basically what I do.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

depends on what branch of sex work you fall under, but we're all technically sex workers. I personally like camgirl and sex worker because they both are basically what I do.

I guess I'll have to see if I can get accustomed to that one. it does fit, it's accurate, but vague/inclusive (usually I only hear 'sex worker' in the context of a police investigation). maybe 'online sex worker' or something would sit better with me, it just sounds so formal/embarrassed. I'd kinda rather just own 'camwhore' (since I'm not a girl, though I get a giggle out of saying I'm a camgirl), but since some people find it offensive it's iffy, like people who're happy to call their friends fags/gays/queers/etc. whatever orientation the friends happen to be... it mostly seems to work, but you could get into the habit of it and find yourself in another community where suddenly you seem like an asshole.

 

[Vera]

I like where this has turned, even if I swore off the thread. Oops. I would be super stoked if the powers that be maybe just nuked this into its own thread, though I am not about to ask that as I know they are under immense pressure currently.

Meh, it all comes down to personal identity. I pro-domme openly and participate in fringe activities somewhat stigmatized by that profession in addition to my various fetish porn endeavors, phonesex lines, cam career, whatever. I am conscientious of my safety but I make no secrets of my work here or elsewhere on the forum. I used to be a stripper. Like low class club stripper. Whatever. I didn't balk at being called a stripper, even though that has a negative connotation. Obviously our experiences in the trade are all different and I make no blanket statements. But I don't think using the word prostitute is necessarily degrading.... I think those words only become degrading if they are allowed to be. If someone is a prostitute and refers to themselves as such happily, let them own it. Sexworker is more courteous to people one doesn't know, but wholly blacklisting terminology is damaging. I do refer to industry folk I don't know as sexworkers out of consideration. It's all about intention. But nuking a word off the planet is fucked.

(In self disclosure, I also own camwhore, hookerbot, and domtron3000 as pet names. Those could all be terribly offensive but it's all about the application.)

I appreciate the end goal of inclusive language but I feel like censorship becomes incredibly dangerous to free speech. Be kind to one another. If a preference for a term is expressed, use it. Be socially active on a physical, meatspace level if you are that concerned. I can point those who are toward some marvelous SW-er oriented charities, one of which saved my ass a few years ago.

If you aren't into that shit, I have some awesome little hobo Ziploc care packages that are pretty awesome and maybe set you back a few bucks a pop, plus a $5 giftcard to Wally World if you feel like Moneybags McGee. Stuff em in your car, pass them out as appropriate. (I was a horrible, horrible hippie activist in my teens and early 20s. I am full of good/bad ideas.) Protip: if you also suffer from crippling existential angst, helping critters and other people will make you feel less like a waste of oxygen.

I don't know. I appreciate the intention but creating a shame based censorship culture is incredibly hindrant to free speech and intellectualism.

Anyway, I don't want to post links to those organizations directly to this thread as it is not really a great venue but I do believe I have an old thread floating around from last year or so that I will happily resurrect in the new and beautiful ACF model forum.

 

[Guy]

Why is that when ever I hear somone say the term sex work, they're always referring to prostitution?

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Why is that when ever I hear somone say the term sex work, they're always referring to prostitution?

because it's sex work, and probably the most common kind?

not all porn (cam or otherwise) involves "sex" (intercourse) (often just "sex acts" without a partner). if we call anyone who doesn't have sex for money a sex worker, we're starting to broaden the term to people who "sell sex" in a looser sense (sex appeal, fantasy, eroticism, etc.), so strippers and hooters waitresses and promo girls and the like could be considered sex workers).

 

[Lexi Emerson]

because it's sex work, and probably the most common kind?

not all porn (cam or otherwise) involves "sex" (intercourse) (often just "sex acts" without a partner). if we call anyone who doesn't have sex for money a sex worker, we're starting to broaden the term to people who "sell sex" in a looser sense (sex appeal, fantasy, eroticism, etc.), so strippers and hooters waitresses and promo girls and the like could be considered sex workers).

(Most) camgirls fuck themselves for money. Almost all of us use sex appeal. Strippers use sex appeal. Therefore they are sex workers. It is an exchange of a sexual service, even it is not physical sex.

 

[Gen]

Why is that when ever I hear somone say the term sex work, they're always referring to prostitution?

Because when sex work is talked about in the media and in public discourse, it's usually prostitution that they're talking about. If it's a specific branch of sex work like stripping or camming, they usually just say stripping or camming. But there's no real good word for prostitution since "prostitution" is out of favour and "sex work" isn't specific. I always use "full service sex work" but even then most non-sex workers don't really know what it means, haha.

because it's sex work, and probably the most common kind?

not all porn (cam or otherwise) involves "sex" (intercourse) (often just "sex acts" without a partner). if we call anyone who doesn't have sex for money a sex worker, we're starting to broaden the term to people who "sell sex" in a looser sense (sex appeal, fantasy, eroticism, etc.), so strippers and hooters waitresses and promo girls and the like could be considered sex workers).

I've wrestled with the same issue (if literally everything sexy = sex work, what do we call prostitution since "prostitution" doesn't work anymore), but ultimately I think it was @JickyJuly who helped me realize that the term "sex work" is inherently too broad to mean one thing. I still feel weird about where the line is, because I like lines and clear definitions, but I do think it makes sense to include camgirls in the definition, whatever the definition winds up being. Even if they don't get naked or whatever. But - I don't think it's crystal clear to everyone and I imagine if we all tried to pin down who is and isn't a sex worker, we wouldn't all agree.

 

[Lelo1]

I know of a couple instances where SO of models read and post as their partner. Because of that, I kind of assume there are none models and all genders reading the models only section.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I've wrestled with the same issue (if literally everything sexy = sex work, what do we call prostitution since "prostitution" doesn't work anymore)

another issue I wonder about wrestling with is the distinction between sex work and sex busking. ...'here are your drinks, sir, I hope you tip for good service' ::titty shake::, vs 'here's a close up of my g-string, wouldn't surprise me if money fell into it', vs 'look at these titties' ::ding:: oh yea like that do ya baby? ::jiggles around:: . . . ::ding::, vs 'BJ is $50, sex $100, greek $150' ::gets into strangers car::

I've done very little sex work, and a lot of sex busking, in my time camming. I hope my lawyer can make the same case if I'm ever rich enough to be worth more in tax revenue than an audit would cost ...apparently 'begging' 'gifts' aren't taxable, but 'busking' 'donations' are.
...maybe I should incorporate as a sex begging company. Or maybe just say most of the income is 'gifts', no different to someone saying 'might I buy you a drink lil lady?' -- you don't put that drink on your tax return as a liquid $10 profit, so why are tokens any different when given in the same spirit rather than negotiated for as sex work? (while camsites keep records of all your income, there's no way of them, us, or the IRS, telling which parts of it were sex work and which parts of it were gifts, except where explicitly stated.)

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I know of a couple instances where SO of models read and post as their partner. Because of that, I kind of assume there are none models and all genders reading the models only section.

yeh. anyone who couples cams would have access if they wished to have it.
I'm kinda surprised there's no wikileaks event where someone just blows it open and goes 'there, now there's nothing more to um and ah over'.

 

[MFCGod]

Straight men have it the hardest in this industry? Really? K

I imagine generally money wise it's the worst paid, but if you have figures etc to prove me wrong then I am open to being corrected

men do not deal with the amount of stigma women deal with (not saying it doesn't happen, but straight men are far more likely to get high fived and congratulated for having such a great job or profiting off sex

100% if you're a guy and it's found out you're camming you will be assumed to be gay

Do you believe there is a stigma in society against gay men? if not then this isn't a problem, but sadly I fear there still is..

Men love whining when they aren't at the forefront

You say inflammatory things to get a rise out of people (specifically men) then you act as though "oh you want to make it about you!"

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

And I don't mean to sound blunt with this sort of reply, but all day both in private DM/PMs as well as some open threads, I've been saying the same thing all. goshdang. day.

The only subforum staying in-tact is the MFC one, which will not be open to anyone who does not have an approved and active MFC profile. Which means it's just girls.

I'm really not trying to make your hard job even worse but for clarification purpose and to avoid people getting upset in the future.

Is this summary correct?
Current M/O forum, open to CIS females, archives not open to Trans females
In the future. some Sub-forums will be open to Trans females
MFC subforum will still be CIS females.

Question what will happen if MFC allows trans-female in the future?
Will the MFC sub-forum use the same rules as MFC for models, or will it remain CIS-females in the future?

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Is this summary correct?
Current M/O forum, open to CIS females, archives not open to Trans females
In the future. some Sub-forums will be open to Trans females

are trans females the same thing as trans women? (I would assume a 'trans female' isn't inherently a woman just as a cis-female might be a F2M (a man), since the 'a female/vagina/XX = a woman' synonym definition of women is exactly what we're getting way from).

if I understand it correctly. it was believed to be a place only suitable for cis-women who are cis-females, so neither trans-women nor trans-females would be any more welcome than F2M men or M2F men or F men.

 

[MFCGod]

Will the MFC sub-forum use the same rules as MFC for models, or will it remain CIS-females in the future?

If a womans ID says they're female who are MFC to say different?

I would assume there are already trans women on MFC

Edit> I see on the MFC wiki it says

• NOT currently accepting trans-gender models.

But again as above, if you ID says you're female how can they say different.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

If a womans ID says they're female who are MFC to say different?
...
But again as above, if you ID says you're female how can they say different.

weird. neither of my two forms of photo ID offer either a gender or a sex. I wonder why the US feels a need to get into that quagmire.

my birth certificate offers a sex, but not a gender. so it would never prove to anyone that I am or am not a man.

 

[MFCGod]

my birth certificate offers a sex, but not a gender. so it would never prove to anyone that I am or am not a man.

Maybe I'm getting mixed up with terms, gender, sex

I mean if you have idea with an F

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Maybe I'm getting mixed up with terms, gender, sex

I mean if you have idea with an F

lol, double-checked. front and back. I'm sure my passport would have something, but the only other 2 forms of universal New Zealand photo IDs I can get don't say 'M/F' or 'M/W'. they have nothing. name, birthdate, donor or not, card number, expiry, that's about it... why would a card need to tell you about what's in my pants or my kinky head? (it can't be that important if my whole country gets by just fine without it, so I wonder why you guys take it for granted as something important to include and get right... why not do away with it. ...kinda like the gay marriage debate: how about 'this is dumb, let's all stop doing it - get rid of marriage, don't make more of it!'? no more need to convince bigots of anything, it just becomes nothing. none of us get married, but we can have a civil union if we need one, and none of us get rightly or wrongly identified on documents. equality n shit)

...but if I ever get a US ID, I suspect I'll be quite annoyed if they don't let me change the sex or gender or whatever is on it. likewise, I identify more as a Sagittarius than a Gemini, so I hope they'll let me change my birthdate, too. why should it be a mere record of birth facts of a humanoid object that have nothing to do with my life or the person I became?

 

[Confessor]

If this site could be one less place that a trans woman feels unwanted, I think that would be cool.

I couldn't figure out where to like a post but this said it better than I could.

When a new member read the old verification or the thread linked in it, that sent a message. A different forum wouldn't change that.

But I don't think using the word prostitute is necessarily degrading.... I think those words only become degrading if they are allowed to be. If someone is a prostitute and refers to themselves as such happily, let them own it.

I won't speak on anyone's behalf, and I can't speak to everyone, but I do know several escorts and in my second hand experience none of them use it like that. Of the one's whose opinions I specifically do know, all of them dislike it (or more specifically, are not cool with someone who isn't one using it). Again that doesn't necessarily apply to every single escort ever. I don't think anyone is saying to tell any who do that they can't, it's saying members shouldn't start calling models camwhores just because Vera calls herself one.