Why is it, that straight hetero men have so much more problems to exchange intimacy with each other than straight hetero women? Or is it?

[Freddy_Fantastic]

at least thats my impression.

As far as I know I'm straight hetero . But among the persons I love there are more men than women. So why is it harder for us to exchange tenderness?

Or does it only look that way?
But I'm almost certain that on average its easier for women (not for all of course).

only biology or is it our christian society?
I guess for centuries women looking for real love and tenderness had to seek out other women to get that (thats very black/white but in general I think while men were slaves, women were the slaves' slaves) . maybe that background has something to do with it.

on the other hand its also biology, at least for me, I just don't find dicks beautiful. Its my impression that women like pussies more than men like dicks. I'm just talking about the average. And I have no scientific data to back that up.

When I cried because something hurt as a little boy I was told (its a very bad German saying, dont know, maybe international)
"An Indian (meaning native american) doesn't know pain"

Funny, now that I think of it I remember when I started to become more aware telling my uncle when he said the same bullshit to another boy: "this is doubly wrong! 1st: He is not an Indian, 2nd: Indians do know pain.

Generations of men have been told to never be weak, afraid, or emotional. That's a pity.

I know experiences may vary, but I'd love to hear your take on this.

 

[Vixxen81]

LMMFAO

Men are the weakest creatures on earth. You get told no and decide the rational thing to do is kill the person who told you no. You get turned down and go postal shooting up groups of people more marginalized than you actually are. Get the fuck out of here with that shit. Men created the world they wanted to live in and "OMG it's sooooooo hard for me, a man," is such disingenuous bullshit. Your viagra is tax free. Your doctors appointments are without question and written every prescription you ask for. You get jobs you aren't qualified for and run households you don't care about.

 

[Nigerian Prince]

I guess for centuries women looking for real love and tenderness had to seek out other women to get that (thats very black/white but in general I think while men were slaves, women were the slaves' slaves) . maybe that background has something to do with it.

on the other hand its also biology, at least for me, I just don't find dicks beautiful. Its my impression that women like pussies more than men like dicks. I'm just talking about the average. And I have no scientific data to back that up.

Bro, what are you talking about...

 

[Freddy_Fantastic]

Men are the weakest creatures on earth. You get told no and decide the rational thing to do is kill the person who told you no. You get turned down and go postal shooting up groups of people more marginalized than you actually are. Get the fuck out of here with that shit. Men created the world they wanted to live in and "OMG it's sooooooo hard for me, a man," is such disingenuous bullshit. Your viagra is tax free. Your doctors appointments are without question and written every prescription you ask for. You get jobs you aren't qualified for and run households you don't care about.

then I clearly didnt find the right words for it. It seems that you understood the opposite of what I was trying to say. My fault probably, I should have focused more on the crimes against women, but that was not my point. My point is that behind this vast crime against women, there is another smaller crime against men too.

In my opinion a big crime doesn't make a small one disappear.

 

[Freddy_Fantastic]

Men are the weakest creatures on earth.

how weak do you think I am?

You get told no and decide the rational thing to do is kill the person who told you no.

I don't kill. its too much paperwork lol

You get turned down and go postal shooting up groups of people more marginalized than you actually are.

I don't understand that. But it seems that's not me you are talking about.

Men created the world they wanted to live in and "OMG it's sooooooo hard for me, a man

Its 's not hard for me at all. Its just an interesting question I think , and your answer confirms it's relevance as far as I can see.

Your doctors appointments are without question and written every prescription you ask for

Certainly not in my country. I know that from experience.

You get jobs you aren't qualified for

thats true, but also true for women.

run households you don't care about.

again not me.

I realize you talk about men in general and for this you are right, and I'm sorry that you have made all these experiences.

However I'm talking about myself and my thoughs about this and I refuse to cite all the crimes against women in detail every time I want to share an observation.

 

[Marceline]

To answer the question asked in the title, I think a lot of men aren't very secure in their own masculinity or sexuality and are afraid of doing things that are considered "feminine" or "gay" and being labeled as less of a man if they are more physically affectionate, even in a platonic way, with other men. I think society is finally starting to change their views on what was traditionally considered masculine. But, a lot of men were raised in a way that discouraged anything that could be seen as feminine. Such as being affectionate with other men, showing emotions like crying or expressing how they feel in a productive manner, etc.

It's a shame, because I personally enjoy how I'm able to be tender or affectionate with the people I care about. Like my relationship with my best friend for example. We can watch movies and have our legs over each other's, we can hug, hold hands, be touchy feely. It's all platonic, and it feels completely natural. Most guys won't be like that with their male friends out of fear of what others will say. I've only ever dated one guy who was like that with his close guy friends, and that's because he was secure with his masculinity and sexuality. But, any dude could also be like that if they decided not to care about any potential social stigma and just did whatever they felt was right.

Its my impression that women like pussies more than men like dicks.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I think women are more capable of admitting when another woman is attractive, but that doesn't mean we automatically like pussy. Sure, women, even straight women, will watch lesbian porn, but it's not about liking vagina. It's because lesbian porn is generally more realistic and focuses more on female pleasure, so it's easier to insert ourselves into that as opposed to watching straight porn where a lot of the times the focus is more on the male's pleasure. (Will say, when I refer to this sort of porn, I'm referring more to traditional studio porn, not independent porn).

Also, I can guarantee you, a lot more guys are attracted to or turned on by dick than you realize. I'd honestly say the reverse of what you said is true. It's my own personal believe that dudes who are obsessed with dick size have a bit of a liking for dick themselves. Most men just won't say that out loud, for fear of getting branded a certain kind of way by those around them.

 

[misterical]

This is like one of those bar conversations you walk into at 2am. One where it makes sense to everyone except those with any sense. Ultimately there is one standard way to deal with it.

You put your hand on the shoulder of the person delivering the monologue and say "Have a nice night mate".

Then leave.

 

[Freddy_Fantastic]

thx @Marceline for the answer. I find that more useful than the hate speech further above.
Still I apologize if I hurt feelings with my OP.

Its my impression that women like pussies more than men like dicks.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

I've tried my best to make it clear that these thoughts are from my very limited experience concerning that subject. And this limitation is the reason I've posed the question. As a secondary job I've been working as event manager in sleazy techno clubs for years and backstage the women seemed to have no problem getting intimate with each other. Talking to them is part of this limited experience. That and studio Cam Models who SEEMED to have no problem being tossed into the same room by their managers. Initially I thought they were besties, but after talking to some of those couples (yes I tipped) they made it clear that they knew each other only for a few days. Still not representative, because Models are generally more open to these kinds of things I believe.
That's where I'm getting this from.

To answer the question asked in the title, I think a lot of men aren't very secure in their own masculinity or sexuality and are afraid of doing things that are considered "feminine" or "gay" and being labeled as less of a man if they are more physically affectionate, even in a platonic way, with other men. I think society is finally starting to change their views on what was traditionally considered masculine. But, a lot of men were raised in a way that discouraged anything that could be seen as feminine. Such as being affectionate with other men, showing emotions like crying or expressing how they feel in a productive manner, etc.

I think that is very on point. At least concerning my biography. Thanks again.

 

[Freddy_Fantastic]

This is like one of those bar conversations you walk into at 2am. One where it makes sense to everyone except those with any sense. Ultimately there is one standard way to deal with it.

You put your hand on the shoulder of the person delivering the monologue and say "Have a nice night mate".

Then leave.

So you and those liking your comment are saying this subject doesn't make any sense at all? Completely irrelevant? Then why do you comment at all? Where is the sense in that?

 

[misterical]

I find that more useful than the hate speech further above.

If you think that people wondering what the fuck you are on about is hate speech then you've clearly never been on the receiving end of hate speech.

 

[Freddy_Fantastic]

If you think that people wondering what the fuck you are on about is hate speech then you've clearly never been on the receiving end of hate speech.

Then you know more about me than I've told. Still wrong because I've clearly been on the receiving end of hate speech.

you see no hate in post#2 ? I do. No problem if you disagree.

care to answer my questions in post#9 ? no problem if not.

it's both off topic anyway.

 

[Vixxen81]

The fragile male. Grow up.

 

[Brit]

This is like one of those bar conversations you walk into at 2am. One where it makes sense to everyone except those with any sense. Ultimately there is one standard way to deal with it.

You put your hand on the shoulder of the person delivering the monologue and say "Have a nice night mate".

Then leave.

Meh, I think it's one of those conversations that are often had amongst a group of people who have dropped some psychedelics, friends sharing a bottle of nice whisky, or even just a group of people interested in discussing/learning about deeper things other than the weather.

-----

There are two separate things here - intimacy and sexual attraction, but I think you're mixing them together under the same term - intimacy. Not sure if it's due to German-English translation not matching or if you actually feel that they are one and the same. While one can lead to another, they do not always go together and an individual can feel the one without it ever leading to the other. Regardless, I do believe that culture and biology play a role in both and culture and biology affect one another.

I'm extraordinarily warm and have pregnancy brain, but I'll try share my thoughts about just the culture and biology part in a coherent way.

Bonobos, along with chimps are our closest living ancestors. Bonobos aren't really talked about very often, but chimps are. Why? I'm not sure, but they are equally as important. Chimps solve their disagreements by fighting. Bonobos solve theirs with fucking. Chimps are patriarchal. Bonobos are matriarchal. Sexual fluidity isn't as common among chimps. All bonobos are bisexual. Bonobos are more socially intelligent than chimps, while chimps are more intelligent when it comes to things like memory and using tools. Bonobos are associated with more stereotypical femme traits while chimps are more stereotypical masculine. However, bonobos and chimps are so closely related that they can interbreed. And again, they are both equally related to humans.

It's thought that the reason for their evolutionary split is because one group ended up on one side of a river while the other ended up on the other side. One side had abundant resources while resources were scarce on the other. Can you guess which side evolved into bonobos and which into chimps? If you guessed that the abundant resources caused the bonobos to evolve into what they are now, then you are correct and well, it matches very well with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. If your basic needs are met, then you have more freedom to explore other things. If your basic needs aren't met, then you're stressed at a very fundamental level, which leads to aggressive behavior.

Humans, for most of us and for much of our history, have been stressed. Basic needs have not been met. Thus, we have had less energy and time to pursue higher interests and instead are driven to compete against one another for limited resources. We have more practice with the chimp side of us than we do with the bonobo side. Of course, not all humans and not all societies. Not trying to romanticize native-americans here as I know that they fought each other, but they were, for the most part, relatively peaceful (comparing them to European cultures). Resources were abundant in the States. Resources were abundant for many Romans and Greeks. Resources were abundant in India. What these cultures had in common, besides abundant resources, is acceptance of different genders and sexualities. Resources were not abundant for the Israelites. On the contrary, after losing their homeland to a natural disaster, they were often enslaved and persecuted. They are the founders of Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - all of which have been staunchly opposed to other sexualities other than heterosexuality.

These Abrahamic religions began to spread and take over (whole other tangentially related topic) and here we are today. Western culture is based on Abrahamic religions. However, resources have become more abundant. I'm sure you see where I'm going. With more resources, more people are able to shoot for and attain higher levels (Maslow's hierarchy) and more people have access to more things that increase intelligence of all types. This also leads to more sexual fluidity.

It's also important to look at the role epigenetics plays. Yes, an individual has certain things hardcoded in their DNA, but the way that DNA is interpreted (and thus changing said individual's potential into a different potential) is influenced by a variety of factors both while in the womb and after being born. Thus, the way a baby is treated is already setting the stage for their temperament. A parent may be more likely to have their baby boy "cry it out" but would hold and soothe a baby girl. This teaches the boy to "be tough" even before he can understand the concept. While useful in the wild with scarce resources, it is detrimental in modern society.

As you can see, hopefully anyway, biology influenced culture and culture influences biology. A key difference between humans and our closest living relatives is that we have a choice. Well, the illusion of choice anyway (tangentially related free will discussion) We can choose how to deal with scarce resources. We can choose how to shape our culture. We can choose how to influence biology. We don't need to fuck or fight in order to resolve conflict. We can discuss and compromise. We are not beholden to our most basic drives. Yes, it's more difficult to think about and make good choices, but it's not impossible.

 

[Freddy_Fantastic]

The fragile male.

Yes I am, and many others too. Thanks for finally getting to the point even if it might have been out of another intention.

Thanks a million @Brit , I'll need some time to chew through this.

 

[Marceline]

Meh, I think it's one of those conversations that are often had amongst a group of people who have dropped some psychedelics, friends sharing a bottle of nice whisky, or even just a group of people interested in discussing/learning about deeper things other than the weather.

-----

There are two separate things here - intimacy and sexual attraction, but I think you're mixing them together under the same term - intimacy. Not sure if it's due to German-English translation not matching or if you actually feel that they are one and the same. While one can lead to another, they do not always go together and an individual can feel the one without it ever leading to the other. Regardless, I do believe that culture and biology play a role in both and culture and biology affect one another.

I'm extraordinarily warm and have pregnancy brain, but I'll try share my thoughts about just the culture and biology part in a coherent way.

Bonobos, along with chimps are our closest living ancestors. Bonobos aren't really talked about very often, but chimps are. Why? I'm not sure, but they are equally as important. Chimps solve their disagreements by fighting. Bonobos solve theirs with fucking. Chimps are patriarchal. Bonobos are matriarchal. Sexual fluidity isn't as common among chimps. All bonobos are bisexual. Bonobos are more socially intelligent than chimps, while chimps are more intelligent when it comes to things like memory and using tools. Bonobos are associated with more stereotypical femme traits while chimps are more stereotypical masculine. However, bonobos and chimps are so closely related that they can interbreed. And again, they are both equally related to humans.

It's thought that the reason for their evolutionary split is because one group ended up on one side of a river while the other ended up on the other side. One side had abundant resources while resources were scarce on the other. Can you guess which side evolved into bonobos and which into chimps? If you guessed that the abundant resources caused the bonobos to evolve into what they are now, then you are correct and well, it matches very well with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. If your basic needs are met, then you have more freedom to explore other things. If your basic needs aren't met, then you're stressed at a very fundamental level, which leads to aggressive behavior.

Humans, for most of us and for much of our history, have been stressed. Basic needs have not been met. Thus, we have had less energy and time to pursue higher interests and instead are driven to compete against one another for limited resources. We have more practice with the chimp side of us than we do with the bonobo side. Of course, not all humans and not all societies. Not trying to romanticize native-americans here as I know that they fought each other, but they were, for the most part, relatively peaceful (comparing them to European cultures). Resources were abundant in the States. Resources were abundant for many Romans and Greeks. Resources were abundant in India. What these cultures had in common, besides abundant resources, is acceptance of different genders and sexualities. Resources were not abundant for the Israelites. On the contrary, after losing their homeland to a natural disaster, they were often enslaved and persecuted. They are the founders of Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - all of which have been staunchly opposed to other sexualities other than heterosexuality.

These Abrahamic religions began to spread and take over (whole other tangentially related topic) and here we are today. Western culture is based on Abrahamic religions. However, resources have become more abundant. I'm sure you see where I'm going. With more resources, more people are able to shoot for and attain higher levels (Maslow's hierarchy) and more people have access to more things that increase intelligence of all types. This also leads to more sexual fluidity.

It's also important to look at the role epigenetics plays. Yes, an individual has certain things hardcoded in their DNA, but the way that DNA is interpreted (and thus changing said individual's potential into a different potential) is influenced by a variety of factors both while in the womb and after being born. Thus, the way a baby is treated is already setting the stage for their temperament. A parent may be more likely to have their baby boy "cry it out" but would hold and soothe a baby girl. This teaches the boy to "be tough" even before he can understand the concept. While useful in the wild with scarce resources, it is detrimental in modern society.

As you can see, hopefully anyway, biology influenced culture and culture influences biology. A key difference between humans and our closest living relatives is that we have a choice. Well, the illusion of choice anyway (tangentially related free will discussion) We can choose how to deal with scarce resources. We can choose how to shape our culture. We can choose how to influence biology. We don't need to fuck or fight in order to resolve conflict. We can discuss and compromise. We are not beholden to our most basic drives. Yes, it's more difficult to think about and make good choices, but it's not impossible.

This was so fascinating to read! Thank you for this thought provoking post, I wish I could “like” it more than once!

 

[AudriTwo]

If the question starts with is "why are men..."

99.5% the answer is always patriarchy.

 

[MaryCorner]

... I should have focused more on the crimes against women, but that was not my point. My point is that behind this vast crime against women, there is another smaller crime against men too.

In my opinion a big crime doesn't make a small one disappear.

However I'm talking about myself and my thoughs about this and I refuse to cite all the crimes against women in detail every time I want to share an observation.

You are talking about misogyny/patriarchy, you just don't realize it.
That's what all those male behaviors are. Internalized misogyny.
You struggle, because you refuse to let patriarchy behind.
You can't even hold each other in pain, that's how deeply rooted it is.
Wanna help your kind get over this? Support, accept and respect our kind.
And *PUFF* all the ridiculous struggles be gone!

And THIS is why you SHOULD cite the crimes against women, when you feel like sharing observations about such male struggles.

 

[Freddy_Fantastic]

You struggle, because you refuse to let patriarchy behind.

Where do you get this from? I was raised by my mom alone who was a very strong woman, fought for women's rights in the sixties, helped free female students from communist east Berlin by escorting them at night through the death zone and fabricating fake passports for them. She was one of the first female German students of conducting music. She had to keep it a secret because her father wouldn't let her. Sadly he found out ant took her from university by force. He was a high ranking SS Nazi, one of those who weren't prosecuted because the Americans needed his expertise as an architect. THAT was a patriarch of the worst kind. So my mom knew what she was fighting and made sure I'll never turn out like this. I realize it sounds hard to believe. But in all honesty I don't care if a random forum member believes me or not.
I was in Ballet class for 10 years as a boy and had to keep it a secret, because I also wanted to be cool and respected by other boys. Call it weak if you need to.

Wanna help your kind get over this? Support, accept and respect our kind.

I do. But I'm still learning.

So where exactly did I support patriarchy?

 

[AudriTwo]

 

[misterical]

We don't care if you don't care if we believe. Why are you here banging on about all this stuff?

 

[AmberCutie]

Why are you here banging on about all this stuff?

This is my question.

This is a cam model forum. This thread wasn’t even posted in the “random” section, it’s in cam/creator chat. Zero to do with that.

 

[Maxi]

I knew this would happen

 

[Freddy_Fantastic]

Then I apologize. It wasn't my intention to be this personal. It seems I picked the wrong spot and the wrong words for that. I got carried away somewhat, especially in my last post. If I was disrespectful, I 'm sorry. Normally I like to think I'm not. But it has given me a lot to think about. Admittedly it wasn't the first time (other place) so I'll be silent in this forum for a while now.