The Black Lives Matters thread.

[LioraVox]

I don't disagree with you. I was trying to take a step back and look at what "respect" for the police means to me at its most basic level, when you strip away such issues as racism, profiling, corruption and brutality. It doesn't mean saying "yes, sir / no sir" or accepting abuse because it's coming from a cop.

When I'm pulled over for speeding, the LEO normally isn't threatening or abusive or treating me unfairly. It's just a routine, if aggravating, speeding ticket. Plus, I'm white and middle class. Still, there's always the possibility for things to go wrong, or for the LEO to cite me for other violations that he might normally let slide. Given the stakes, I make the practical decision to behave as predictably, unthreateningly and normally as possible. Whatever I feel about the police, good and bad, doesn't matter at those times. I'm not trying to make a political statement; I'm dealing with an individual police officer who is a human being, in a situation where I've broken the law. I just want to take my ticket and leave without incident.

This approach has become all the more necessary in recent years, because I think that the police feel threatened by ordinary citizens much more than in the past, probably due to the prevalence of guns, and the use of behavior-altering drugs.

So your respect for police is more in line with "this is just a person doing their job - i don't need to make this situation any more difficult"? Which is something I agree with. Don't make the situation more than it needs to be.

But like how I was saying, I find that the people who say "you should respect cops" means "accept how they mistreat you, don't make it worse cause if you do its your fault. they are the person in power - just take it" - and I don't agree with that. And in this thread, I've felt like some people who have said that have meant the more "accept it just because" which makes me ask Why should you just respect a cop?

 

[Osmia]

So your respect for police is more in line with "this is just a person doing their job - i don't need to make this situation any more difficult"? Which is something I agree with. Don't make the situation more than it needs to be.

But like how I was saying, I find that the people who say "you should respect cops" means "accept how they mistreat you, don't make it worse cause if you do its your fault. they are the person in power - just take it" - and I don't agree with that. And in this thread, I've felt like some people who have said that have meant the more "accept it just because" which makes me ask Why should you just respect a cop?

To me, respect (or disrespect) for someone or some institution is an interior attitude that helps define what kind of person you are, and how you see yourself. In other words, it affects you more than it affects the object of your disrespect. How and where you express that respect (or disrespect) is the key point.

I would argue that even if the police officer is mistreating someone, that person would be better off not using that occasion to express his disrespect for the police. If the expression of disrespect is limited to, say, angry verbal protests, it won't help his situation, but it may not cause any significant harm. However, if he resists physically, he's just bought himself some serious trouble--and for what benefit?

So, that person who is currently being abused needs to decide how he's going to express his disrespect. I would argue that it's better to swallow one's pride, protect yourself from physical harm as much as possible, but don't otherwise resist or protest. It just isn't going to do you any good, and may cause a lot of harm. Expressions of disrespect would be better focused on the political process, group protests, social media, newspaper columns, legal action, etc.

I'll admit that I've never had such an encounter with police, much less with a lifetime history of experiencing racism and LE harassment, so it's safe to say that what I've suggested above is easier said than done.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

So, that person who is currently being abused needs to decide how he's going to express his disrespect. I would argue that it's better to swallow one's pride, protect yourself from physical harm as much as possible, but don't otherwise resist or protest.

I agree to an extent. But how many generations are you willing to do this?

 

[LioraVox]

To me, respect (or disrespect) for someone or some institution is an interior attitude that helps define what kind of person you are, and how you see yourself. In other words, it affects you more than it affects the object of your disrespect. How and where you express that respect (or disrespect) is the key point.

I would argue that even if the police officer is mistreating someone, that person would be better off not using that occasion to express his disrespect for the police. If the expression of disrespect is limited to, say, angry verbal protests, it won't help his situation, but it may not cause any significant harm. However, if he resists physically, he's just bought himself some serious trouble--and for what benefit?

So, that person who is currently being abused needs to decide how he's going to express his disrespect. I would argue that it's better to swallow one's pride, protect yourself from physical harm as much as possible, but don't otherwise resist or protest. It just isn't going to do you any good, and may cause a lot of harm. Expressions of disrespect would be better focused on the political process, group protests, social media, newspaper columns, legal action, etc.

I'll admit that I've never had such an encounter with police, much less with a lifetime history of experiencing racism and LE harassment, so it's safe to say that what I've suggested above is easier said than done.

That is definitely easier said than done, especially with LEO's who can say "you resisted arrest" because they are annoyed with the situation, like in this video.



After watching this video would you say that she is protecting herself or is she disrespecting the officer? And what happened in this video for you to decide that choice? Where would you say the line is drawn between protecting yourself & disrespecting an officer?

 

[n_i_c_u]

because they are annoyed with the situation,

She wasn't following the "command presence" of the officer as far as I can tell. I'm not making a judgement, but, just sayin. In this world, for as long as I can remember -- I'm 40 something, you play or you pay. Sorry it happened to her (I'm one of those people that just keeps taking it and have been raised to do that--and it doesn't help my opinion of police, fwiw).

Edit: I base my comments on a yahoo video i saw without commentary and editing.

 

[Osmia]

I agree to an extent. But how many generations are you willing to do this?

As long as it takes. I'm not being glib. It's just a statement of fact that social change takes a long time. It takes as long as it takes. But trying to speed up the process by resorting to violence will usually have the opposite effect.

We're having this conversation over 150 years after black people were supposedly given their freedom, and they're not really free even today.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

As long as it takes. I'm not being glib. It's just a statement of fact that social change takes a long time. It takes as long as it takes. But trying to speed up the process by resorting to violence will usually have the opposite effect.

We're having this conversation over 150 years after black people were supposedly given their freedom, and they're not really free even today.

I don't think you are being glib. And I wholeheartedly agree about the violence part.

I also think when a system resists change, it makes violence seem like the only option. Not endorsing it, merely voicing a worry.

 

[n_i_c_u]

Can you post that video, I wanna be sure I have the full story before making a comment.

I know!!!!!! I keep looking for it. I saw it yesterday at work (not kidding! It was just reporting with no bias to the situation--they even had her account on CNN, I think). Apparently she had her purse in her car trunk and got out of the car to get it. And then mayhem. I'll keep looking for it.

 

[LioraVox]

She wasn't following the "command presence" of the officer as far as I can tell. I'm not making a judgement, but, just sayin. In this world, for as long as I can remember -- I'm 40 something, you play or you pay. Sorry it happened to her (I'm one of those people that just keeps taking it and have been raised to do that--and it doesn't help my opinion of police, fwiw).

Edit: I base my comments on a yahoo video i saw without commentary and editing.

By "She wasn't following his "command presence" " you mean that she was questioning his authority by calling for other officers ? And so, as a result it isn't (more or less) suprising that that's how the officer reacted?

 

[n_i_c_u]

you mean that she was questioning his authority by calling for other officers ?

Not following instructions given to you by a Police Officer (get back in the car, etc) just based upon watching numerous episodes of COPS. They really can't handle not being listened to (it doesn't seem to be something they like--kinda like my grade school teachers and especially the nuns).

 

[LioraVox]

Not following instructions given to you by a Police Officer (get back in the car, etc) just based upon watching numerous episodes of COPS. They really can't handle not being listened to (it doesn't seem to be something they like--kinda like my grade school teachers and especially the nuns).

Oh ok. Yeah they don't, same with parents. The whole "who you do think you are to ask questions/ just do as I say (end of story)". I don't like these types of people.

 

[Osmia]

That is definitely easier said than done, especially with LEO's who can say "you resisted arrest" because they are annoyed with the situation, like in this video.



After watching this video would you say that she is protecting herself or is she disrespecting the officer? And what happened in this video for you to decide that choice? Where would you say the line is drawn between protecting yourself & disrespecting an officer?

I think both parties (the woman and the police officer) made some bad judgment calls. To be honest, I think most of the fault lies with her (the driver). Assuming nothing serious or provocative happened before the video started, what I see is someone pulled over for what appears to be a fairly minor traffic infraction. Just accept the ticket and drive away! Contest it in court if desired.

She started to escalate it when she called 911, which is kind of a silly thing to do unless (for example) she wasn't sure that he was a real police officer (impostors do happen). She started getting more and more agitated, and I could tell that the police officer knew he had to quickly make a decision about what to do. Maybe with some training and better interpersonal skills, he could have talked with her and de-escalated the situation (or prevented it in the first place). But like @n_i_c_u noted above, she was threatening his "command presence" by not complying with his lawful orders. And with police, command presence is everything; it's how they do their job without having to resort to force. If they lose that, they're basically a paper tiger and deadly violence is much more likely.

I do think that the officer could have handled the situation better, by not letting it get out of control in the first place. Also, it might be a good idea if there was a procedure for the officer to call for backup or a supervisor when encountering a situation like this, but that's probably not practical.

 

[LioraVox]

Imo & going by her saying "this officer pulled me over for driving over a line & is yelling at me which is making me afraid"; I don't see anything wrong with her calling for backup because of how she describes him acting towards her. I see her calling for other cops as a "I feel this could escalate because of his actions/tone of voice towards me & I would feel safer if there were other officers here to keep everything calm."

I feel like it is his responsibility to acknowledge what she was saying, like if he wasn't trying to make her feel unsafe & just wanted her to do what he asked. Then he could've taken a deep breathe and directed her to do things in a calmer tone versus "yelling at her". So what his authority is being questioned, protect your ass and your job and just wait for backup. Backup helps both of you, it makes the "criminal" feel safer and it gives you a witness if things get out of hand.

I also feel like his "command presence" was already lacking if he had to yell or raise his voice to get her to do things. If he had a good "command presence" why did he have to yell or be so assertive that it scares the person in the first place? From what I read "command presence" is a vibe or air about a person that others perceive them to be, without this person having to say that they are that. ie, telling people you're hot shit vs. walking into a room with your head high, back straight, and looking people in their eyes when you speak to them.

 

[Ms_Diane]

In response to change and violence - wanting things to change is exactly why BLM protests started in the first place. Yes, change takes time but that doesn't mean people should wait around for it, someone has to do things to make the people in power make changes or else it will never happen. The people in power like being in power and will try to keep it that way for as long as they can. Enter civil disobedience. Of course that doesn't mean that every time you get pulled over by the police you should act like a douche nozzle, but people are fed the fuck up.

@LioraVox is right about the the BLM protests in Baltimore. The DOJ investigation in Baltimore would never have happened without those protests. Protesting isn't clean or pretty and it isn't nice. Cops in riot gear are not deescalating anything though. I agree that it would be great if there was less violence, but the whole point of these protests was because people are angry over police violence and the deaths of people in their communities and no one was listening or doing anything about it, and the people who are supposed to help are the actual perpetrators. It makes a lot of sense to me that people feel like they have to resort to protesting and that it wasn't always peaceful.

I think the context of what POC have to put up with is something that often isn't taken into consideration when people judge how someone reacts to the police. For example, in the video above, this lady may not have been reacting only to this one officer, but to all the interactions she has had with the police in the past, and the climate around policing in general today. This woman might have feared becoming the next Sandra Bland.

In terms of respect, pretending to be respectful so that a situation doesn't make a turn for the worse, is not actually having any respect at all. It's actually really sad that so many people do not have respect for the police and are just acting that way to get away from them, mostly I think out of fear. Sometimes it seems like there is not a real understanding that people are going to have their own biases about cops. So many people have bad experiences and there is a bad public image casting a shadow over a lot of police departments. I think to be fair, some police departments realize this or are starting to realize this and know they have to work on having better relationships with the public. I also think that it is easier for white people to respect or even pretend to respect cops. If you are white you do not know what it feels like to be targeted or to be fearful of being targeted the way people of colour are targeted.

Also I gotta wonder why is it up to the person who is being stopped by the cops to prevent a situation from going sideways? Part of a police officer's job is to deescalate situations and if someone is being uncooperative or mouthy isn't it exactly the kind of situation that an officer is supposed to be trained to deal with? Cops have just as much choice in their behaviour as the person they have pulled over. Both can choose to either remain calm and deal, or let it get out of hand. Anyway, I think this is where better training comes in and why more oversight around the culture of the police is needed.

 

[Camgirl]

She did not comply with any of the Officer's orders. She is required to do that when being pulled over. She did not remain in her car, she did not provide identification, she resisted everything this Officer ordered, and she in turn was arrested.


Her ID was not in the trunk, it was in the car. But that has literally no relevance here. She immediately got out of her vehicle when being pulled over. As far as that officer knows, you are jumping out of your car with a weapon. That is a VERY real thing that happens, and an Officer is not just going to make an assumption that is not the case. Traffic stops can be very dangerous for LEOs. There are reasons you are ordered to stay in your vehicle. Even if her ID WAS in the trunk, why on earth would a LEO allow someone they have pulled over to jump out of their car and go into their TRUNK to grab something. In that case, HE would be the one to grab it while she remained in her vehicle. That would be standard procedure. For SAFETY reasons. When being pulled over you remain in your vehicle. Period. That is common knowledge. And if it isn't, fine, he ordered you to stay in your car. Do it.

When he told her to get back in her car she did, and grabbed her phone and called 911, and then got back out of her car. WTF? She sat there and argued to 911 she didn't agree that she crossed the white line and did not want to give over her ID. ????? He stood there for quite awhile while she spoke with 911. I believe that she unnecessarily escalated the situation.

So you disagree about crossing over the solid line? So what. Lot's of people disagree with the tickets they receive and they argue that in court. She has no idea whether she was even going to GET a ticket. You don't argue with the cop and call 911 on him for raising his voice when you are not being compliant and totally ignoring his command presence.

By not complying with the officer she was breaking the law. You have been pulled over. You have been told WHY you have been pulled over. You have been ordered to remain in your car. You have been ordered to provide your ID. Yes, ordered. You are required to identify yourself when a LEO pulls you over. You are required to follow orders when being pulled over by law enforcement. Period.

This is a situation where simply handing over your ID and complying with an officer who asks you to remain in your car would have prevented this. IMO, she showed her ass and he arrested her. He pulled her over and she did not follow a single command he gave her.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I have about a million thoughts running through my head over this.

Something to ponder http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/08/10/downtown-protest-organizer-arrested-on-trespassing-charge/

 

[LioraVox]

She did not comply with any of the Officer's orders. She is required to do that when being pulled over. She did not remain in her car, she did not provide identification, she resisted everything this Officer ordered, and she in turn was arrested.


Her ID was not in the trunk, it was in the car. But that has literally no relevance here. She immediately got out of her vehicle when being pulled over. As far as that officer knows, you are jumping out of your car with a weapon. That is a VERY real thing that happens, and an Officer is not just going to make an assumption that is not the case. Traffic stops can be very dangerous for LEOs. There are reasons you are ordered to stay in your vehicle. Even if her ID WAS in the trunk, why on earth would a LEO allow someone they have pulled over to jump out of their car and go into their TRUNK to grab something. In that case, HE would be the one to grab it while she remained in her vehicle. That would be standard procedure. For SAFETY reasons. When being pulled over you remain in your vehicle. Period. That is common knowledge. And if it isn't, fine, he ordered you to stay in your car. Do it.

When he told her to get back in her car she did, and grabbed her phone and called 911, and then got back out of her car. WTF? She sat there and argued to 911 she didn't agree that she crossed the white line and did not want to give over her ID. ????? He stood there for quite awhile while she spoke with 911. I believe that she unnecessarily escalated the situation.

So you disagree about crossing over the solid line? So what. Lot's of people disagree with the tickets they receive and they argue that in court. She has no idea whether she was even going to GET a ticket. You don't argue with the cop and call 911 on him for raising his voice when you are not being compliant and totally ignoring his command presence.

By not complying with the officer she was breaking the law. You have been pulled over. You have been told WHY you have been pulled over. You have been ordered to remain in your car. You have been ordered to provide your ID. Yes, ordered. You are required to identify yourself when a LEO pulls you over. You are required to follow orders when being pulled over by law enforcement. Period.

This is a situation where simply handing over your ID and complying with an officer who asks you to remain in your car would have prevented this. IMO, she showed her ass and he arrested her. He pulled her over and she did not follow a single command he gave her.

Okay, she could've been threatening towards the officer, she could've caused him harm, but obviously, he wasn't worried about that, which you can see by how close he stands next to her while she's out of the car for any length of time. She definitely could've just stayed in the car, told him where her id was/ handed it over and everything would've been fine. But because she didn't do that, she is at fault for everything escalating to that point? No.

The officer is also responsible because he should have control of the situation. There nothing wrong with a civilian saying, "you, person of authority, are making me feel unsafe". Despite her "breaking the law" for not doing as he said, he wasn't in danger so he still could've have waited for other officers to show up before proceeding with any action. The moment he reaches for his handcuffs shows that he was fed up & annoyed with the situation, and used his power to gain control in the wrong way.

He could've waited til other officers came, and told them "shes refusing to show me her id, and shes refusing to remain in her car when I ask her to so I'm going to arrest her." & then proceeds with arresting her, while having back up in case she actually decides to physically fight back/ resist.

I guess I don't see the justification in using force to arrest someone when 5 seconds ago you were just standing there. Like if a cop is being threatened - fine put your safety first. But if the person didn't do an actual crime/ actually threaten you then there's no need for any level of force to be used. Just wait it out. Or handle the situation differently.

 

[Camgirl]

Okay, she could've been threatening towards the officer, she could've caused him harm, but obviously, he wasn't worried about that, which you can see by how close he stands next to her while she's out of the car for any length of time.

She was breaking the law. I do not believe she should be able to escalate, and yes, she escalated the situation, without a consequence. There are consequences for breaking the law. He should accommodate her because she literally refused to follow the law? I disagree.

Why should he have to stand there and allow her to break the law and wait to arrest her for it? The longer he allowed that situation to continue, the worse it could have gotten. She is clearly showing she is not compliant. Who is to say she doesn't decide to jump in her car and try to leave? She was breaking the law. He was patiently allowing her to do so, probably because he was afraid to arrest her for it.

He showed her a lot of patience before finally just arresting her.

In watching that video from the very beginning you can tell how that went down, and why the officer was raising his voice.

The moment she gets out of the car she waved, and he very very likely said "Ma'am please get back in your vehicle." in a very stern voice, as I mentioned before, this is a BIG red flag to jump out of your car when being pulled over. Her facial expression immediately changed. She started to step towards her car, but did not comply. He very likely, while approaching cautiously, continued to order her to get back in her vehicle, his voice getting louder each time. She did not comply. As he was approaching, and seeing that she was NOT complying with his orders, he removed his handcuffs, continuing to approach, her continuing to NOT be in her vehicle. He could have lawfully arrested her RIGHT THEN. But, in stead, he then likely is explaining to her while they are standing at her car something along the lines of "ma'am, I asked you to get back in your vehicle. You need to get back in your vehicle" She FINALLY gets in her vehicle and calls 911 and gets back OUT of her vehicle. WTF? While she is on the phone he actually puts his handcuffs back in his cuff pocket. And she complains that he raised his voice. Well, yes, of course he did. She clearly was not listening.

There are many Officers who likely would not have allowed her to get as far as she did before putting her in handcuffs.

This video is actually quite ridiculous and if anything shows exactly the kind of shit a LEO has to go through just to give a ticket to someone.

 

[Camgirl]

There nothing wrong with a civilian saying, "you, person of authority, are making me feel unsafe".

The thing is, HE was the one with the right to feel unsafe. She felt unsafe because he was raising his voice because she refused to get back in the car? Really? C'mon.

 

[LioraVox]

The thing is, HE was the one with the right to feel unsafe. She felt unsafe because he was raising his voice because she refused to get back in the car? Really? C'mon.

So.. a civilian can't feel unsafe with a cop raising their voice towards them? Let's acknowledge that she could just be afraid of cops for any reason, plus the fact that she didn't recognize anything that she was doing as threatening or dangerous. So, possibly him raising his voice to her made her weary of the situation - so she called for backup. That's ridiculous to you? A cop can feel unsafe because a person is out of their car, but a civilian can't feel unsafe because a cop is more or less yelling at them?

Right now, I feel like you're trying to justify his actions instead of acknowledging that he could've handled the situation better and I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I see where you're coming from because she definitely could've handled it better. But she didn't and that to me, puts the situation in his hands.

Imo, any person who states that it's crazy/ridiculous/etc for a civilian to be afraid of a cop is making asinine remarks, especially considering the climate & opinions around police vs civilian interaction.

 

[Camgirl]

So.. a civilian can't feel unsafe with a cop raising their voice towards them? Let's acknowledge that she could just be afraid of cops for any reason, plus the fact that she didn't recognize anything that she was doing as threatening or dangerous. So, possibly him raising his voice to her made her weary of the situation - so she called for backup. That's ridiculous to you? A cop can feel unsafe because a person is out of their car, but a civilian can't feel unsafe because a cop is more or less yelling at them?

Right now, I feel like you're trying to justify his actions instead of acknowledging that he could've handled the situation better and I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I see where you're coming from because she definitely could've handled it better. But she wasn't and that to me, puts the situation in his hands.

Imo, any person who thinks it's crazy/ridiculous/etc for a civilian to be afraid of a cop is asinine, especially considering the climate & opinions around police vs civilian interaction.

If she was following his orders and there was no logical reason for him to be raising his voice, yes, I totally get it. But when you are knowingly and purposely totally ignoring the orders of of law enforcement during a traffic stop, I think it is ridiculous to act as if the officer is the one at fault for raising his voice..

Could he have handled it differently. Of course. SHE could have handled it differently as well. But it is 100% her fault she was arrested. Period.

I watched the unedited video before I made judgements. You made judgements on the cop having the nerve to raise his voice to her in the first place. I assume prior to seeing the video form the beginning.

I think it is crazy that now cops are not allowed to raise their voices if someone is not complying during a traffic stop or they are "not handling it" properly. They are the police. They are meant to be authoritative. If they have tried numerous times to get you to comply, and you refuse, then that is on you. People are supposed to fear the consequences of breaking the law. They are not supposed to be treated with kids gloves because the consequences make them uncomfortable.

I am sorry that you put such a broad stroke on my comments and turned them into:

"any person who thinks it's crazy/ridiculous/etc for a civilian to be afraid of a cop is asinine"

when it was clear I was commenting on this particular situation.

We have different opinions on this. I doesn't make you asinine.

 

[Bocefish]

The thing is, HE was the one with the right to feel unsafe. She felt unsafe because he was raising his voice because she refused to get back in the car? Really? C'mon.

WOW, just WOW.

Right to feel unsafe?

This has nothing to do skin color.

You've got an obstinate, uncooperative fearful woman and an impatient control freak cop.

Both were well within their rights the way I see it, given the current state of things, sadly enough.

 

[Camgirl]

WOW, just WOW.

Right to feel unsafe?

This has nothing to do skin color.

You've got an obstinate, uncooperative fearful woman and an impatient control freak cop.

Both were well within their rights the way I see it, given the current state of things, sadly enough.

Yes, I believe when he was raising his voice telling her to get back in her vehicle as he was walking towards her he had a right to feel uncertain and unsafe on what was going to transpire in that moment. Many cops have been shot as a suspect is getting out of their vehicle. I assume he no longer felt unsafe when he put his cuffs back in his pocket as they were both standing at her car. Which is why I mentioned that in my previous post.


I probably shouldn't even post about law enforcement on here. My opinions will not be popular, and I have a very vested interest considering the man I love and many of my close friends are LEOs. And considering I have seen first hand the pain caused by the loss of two very wonderful men, who happened to be LEOS who were shot and murdered at gunpoint during a traffic stop, I can empathise with a cop being cautious during a traffic stop and wanting someone to stay in their vehicle.

 

[LioraVox]

If she was following his orders and there was no logical reason for him to be raising his voice, yes, I totally get it. But when you are knowingly and purposely totally ignoring the orders of of law enforcement during a traffic stop, I think it is ridiculous to act as if the officer is the one at fault for raising his voice..

Could he have handled it differently. Of course. SHE could have handled it differently as well. But it is 100% her fault she was arrested. Period.

I watched the unedited video before I made judgements. You made judgements on the cop having the nerve to raise his voice to her in the first place. I assume prior to seeing the video form the beginning.

I think it is crazy that now cops are not allowed to raise their voices if someone is not complying during a traffic stop or they are "not handling it" properly. They are the police. They are meant to be authoritative. If they have tried numerous times to get you to comply, and you refuse, then that is on you. People are supposed to fear the consequences of breaking the law. They are not supposed to be treated with kids gloves because the consequences make them uncomfortable.

I am sorry that you put such a broad stroke on my comments and turned them into:

"any person who thinks it's crazy/ridiculous/etc for a civilian to be afraid of a cop is asinine"

when it was clear I was commenting on this particular situation.

We have different opinions on this. I doesn't make you asinine.

The officer can raise his voice & assert his position, but the moment a civilian says "you are making me afraid" or calls for other cops to come because this cop is making them afraid. IT IS that cops responsibility to assess and gain control over the situation. My point is just because a person is in a position where they can assert power doesn't mean they have to remain at a certain level to assert that power. Nothing she did changed between him standing there while she was on the phone with the operator - to him arresting her while she was still on the phone with the operator. Aside for his patience, and that's on him. She didn't curse at him, she didn't gesture at him like she was going to harm him. That escalation is on him. I'm not even saying she shouldn't have been arrested. I'm saying that the point that he decided to arrest her - is on him. He didn't arrest her when she got out of her car the second time so.. he could've waited for other officers to show up to arrest her.

Regardless if you're in an authoritative position, it's not "babying" to step back and recognize that your actions are coming off as harsh or threatening especially if that's not your intention. You can be authoritative without being threatening, and regardless of how we interpret the situation she saw this officer as being a potential threat to her safety. So saying that its ridiculous for her to feel that way is asinine. She felt what she felt, and how you interpret it isn't going to change that moment of her life.

I just chose to word is this way, because I didn't want you to take it as a personal "she thinks i am foolish". The statement "She felt unsafe because he was raising his voice because she refused to get back in the car? Really? C'mon." dismisses any other causes she could have to an inherent fear of an officer. She could be afraid of men, and it's a male officer who's raising his voice at her. She could have a fear of cops because of how she's seen/heard other peoples experiences with cops & how it goes wrong. We don't know, but how you worded your statement says that you think its crazy/ridiculous for her to be afraid of him - period.

 

[Ms_Diane]

I think it is really hard to see the other side, no matter what way you are looking at it. I think you are both right in different ways. Makes me think that part of improving the relationship between the police and the public should be not only for police to make changes to their training and how they interact with the public but for us to also see all the bs that cops have to put up with. I don't doubt that cops feel unsafe sometimes, but it is also kind of effed up that people feel unsafe around cops when they are being pulled over for a traffic violation. I don't know how to talk about one side of things without invalidating the other side.

When I was in high school we had a cop come talk to us on a career day, and she told us that the thing that surprised her the most about her job when she first started was how much she had to learn in terms of dealing with people. That the number one thing you need to be a cop is people skills. So being a cop is a super tough gig with very real stakes, but there is also the very real widespread issues of police violence and racism in so many police departments. So part of the reason this woman in the video reacted the way she did is because she is freaked out by how people of colour are so often treated by the police. The police need to address this. But the police still need to be able to do their jobs. No one is winning.

@Camgirl I really appreciate your point of view and am glad you voiced your opinions and perspective. I hope you won't leave the conversation, but I understand if you do of course.

 

[LioraVox]

Yes, I believe when he was raising his voice telling her to get back in her vehicle as he was walking towards her he had a right to feel uncertain and unsafe on what was going to transpire in that moment. Many cops have been shot as a suspect is getting out of their vehicle. I assume he no longer felt unsafe when he put his cuffs back in his pocket as they were both standing at her car. Which is why I mentioned that in my previous post.


I probably shouldn't even post about law enforcement on here. My opinions will not be popular, and I have a very vested interest considering the man I love and many of my close friends are LEOs. And considering I have seen first hand the pain caused by the loss of two very wonderful men, who happened to be LEOS who were shot and murdered at gunpoint during a traffic stop, I can empathise with a cop being cautious during a traffic stop and wanting someone to stay in their vehicle.

I like your opinion in this thread because it shows a side that isn't widely expressed. And after your paragraph, I can see that that's definitely where you're speaking from. Tbh, we're both speaking from the same place just different sides. Because I can empathise with someone being afraid of an officer.

For me, the issue is that a lot of the time, people who empathise with police put blinders onto the other person in the situation because they always give the LEO the benefit of the doubt, "you had to do what you had to do". And often times, I find s/o's or friends, family to LEOs rarely ever question their actions. Often times, these people are always trying to justify the LEO's actions instead of acknowledging the other side's argument or position of opinion and that's where I understood your post to be- absolving the officer for his part and putting most of the blame on the woman.

I know that if a cop uses force, in situation where they aren't in danger/they aren't using force to prevent the person from getting away, I will probably always side with the "criminal" because, to me, the use of force is never justifiable unless either of this instances are happening. I will always feel that if there's room to criticise how a cop reacted there's room to address it so that situation doesn't happen again. Not saying they need to be perfect, but there's an unsaid expectation that comes with the job, that doesn't apply to a civilian because the civilian didn't swear an oath of protecting and serving. So while a civilian isn't "obeying their orders" the officers job is still to protect them & you can't protect someone while simultaneously harming them with force.

 

[Camgirl]

Regardless if you're in an authoritative position, it's not "babying" to step back and recognize that your actions are coming off as harsh or threatening especially if that's not your intention.

Ok, I hear you. But at what point should she have recognized her own part in what happened? Why was she fearful to listen to the officer and get back in her vehicle, where she would have been much safer and there would have been a barrier between her and the Officer. He didn;t say GET ON THE GROUND! PUT YOUR HANDS UP!!"

From the perspective of a LEO, I am sure it appeared like this woman was trying to do whatever she could to get out of a ticket, including suggesting the officer was being brutal with her, which, raising your voice is not police brutality. She really just appeared to me like a woman who was ready, from the moment she was getting pulled over, to create a scene and disobey the police. People who intend to cooperate do not jump out of their car and walk towards police when getting stopped, and then refuse to get back in their car.

that's where I understood your post to be- absolving the officer for his part and putting most of the blame on the woman.

You are correct though. I do place most of the blame on her. Not all, but most. I do think he should have handled it differently, but I do not think the outcome should have been much different. I think she deserved to be put in handcuffs when she displayed that she was not going to get back in her car. Handcuffs do not = arrest.He had not yet run her license. For all he knew she could have had warrants out. In her car or in handcuffs, she is contained until he runs her ID. That is the goal. Her staying put in one place. Officers will ask a person to step out of their vehicle after they have run their license, usually to arrest them. Likely, she would have gotten a ticket and never even had to get out of her car.

But from the start, she was having none of it. Period. She knew from the start she was not going to comply. Had she just got back in her vehicle - a totally reasonable and expected thing to request - this would not have escalated. This is not a situation where she was doing what she was supposed to and then being treated poorly. She was literally breaking the law - on tape. He should have not let it go on as long as he did, but why should she be excused from the consequences of breaking the law because she fears the police? I mean, she is on video breaking the law and the expectation is she is not in the wrong. I feel like you might be having blinders as well.

I am buzzed.

ETA: Do you feel because of her fear she should not have had to get back in her car as requested? Maybe I am unclear.

 

[Bocefish]

she could have to an inherent fear of an officer. She could be afraid of men, and it's a male officer who's raising his voice at her. She could have a fear of cops because of how she's seen/heard other peoples experiences with cops & how it goes wrong. We don't know

Ya, but it's pretty obvious she was just another white pants suit drama queen trying to abuse the system for her advantage.

 

[LioraVox]

Ok, I hear you. But at what point should she have recognized her own part in what happened? Why was she fearful to listen to the officer and get back in her vehicle, where she would have been much safer and there would have been a barrier between her and the Officer. He didn;t say GET ON THE GROUND! PUT YOUR HANDS UP!!"

From the perspective of a LEO, I am sure it appeared like this woman was trying to do whatever she could to get out of a ticket, including suggesting the officer was being brutal with her, which, raising your voice is not police brutality. She really just appeared to me like a woman who was ready, from the moment she was getting pulled over, to create a scene and disobey the police. People who intend to cooperate do not jump out of their car and walk towards police when getting stopped, and then refuse to get back in their car.



You are correct though. I do place most of the blame on her. Not all, but most. I do think he should have handled it differently, but I do not think the outcome should have been much different. I think she deserved to be put in hand cuffs when she displayed that she was not going to comply. Handcuffs do not arrest. But from the start, she was having none of being pulled over. Period. She new from the start she was not going to comply. Had she just got back in her vehicle - a totally reasonable and expected thing to request - this would not have escalated. This is not a situation where she was doing what she was supposed to and then being treated poorly. She was literally breaking the law - on tape. He should have not let it go on as long as he did, but why should she be excused from the consequences of breaking the law because she fears the police? I mean, she is on video breaking the law and the expectation is she is not in the wrong. I feel like you might be having blinders as well.

I am buzzed.

I agree with you, and definitely, can acknowledge her part in her arrest. I never said it wasn't deserved as an end result. My whole point of posting the video was to create a discussion about where the line is between a) a civilian protecting themselves and b) disrespecting an officer by resisting or protesting arrest and what's the difference between the two. Where is this special moment that changed things from A to B. Making that difference known helps. Like, you saying "she should've stayed in the car when he said to get in the car/exaggerated the threat of the officer" explains how her actions are seen as disrespectful towards the officer. While looking at it from her side, calling for backup and then pulling away from an officer,she has claimed to be afraid of, while they are trying to subdue her of can be seen as her protecting herself from his actions.

What makes this situation one thing & not the other? Is it possible for a person to not be disrespectful towards a cop while also trying to protect themselves from force?

 

[Camgirl]

While looking at it from her side, calling for backup and then pulling away from an officer,she has claimed to be afraid of, while they are trying to subdue her of can be seen as her protecting herself from his actions.

I understand what you are saying and the thinking behind it, but I think in THIS CASE it is called resisting an officer. IN THEORY, it does not become forceful until there resistance. This isn't really a respect thing. This is a you are breaking the law and now you are being detained, and by law (not respect) you should not resist.

What makes this situation one thing & not the other? Is it possible for a person to not be disrespectful towards a cop while also trying to protect themselves from force?

I think the actions that led up to it all (her getting out of the car, refusing to comply, etc) make this one and not the other.

I do understand, acknowledge, and know that this is not always the case though, especially recently. This particular video gets under my skin because there are serious problems regarding police brutality and racism out there, and I truly feel like this was not one of them. I do not feel like anything that happening in this video has to do with race. I feel like this video shows someone who was using the current climate of LEO relations to get out of a ticket she didn't feel like she deserved, and it blew up in both of their faces.