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Feminist or Camgirl?

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Sep 15, 2010
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There's a woman who does video projects on the subject of the portrayal of women in popular culture. She had a Kickstarter project that wrapped up last year that is basically a review of how women are portrayed in video games. She raked in almost $160,000, mostly from guys to finance the project. In fact, most of the money came in after she got a *lot* of hate when she turned her attention to video games. Apparently it's news that video games, and most of the ones she mentions are old and Japanese, are sexist and designed mostly to appeal to young guys.

So I'm interested in opinions. Is she a feminist, or a camgirl milking white knights? Or both?
 
Definitely a feminist cause...

I say she's a feminist, whether or not she's also a camgirl.
 
Jessi said:
Feminist and camgirl aren't mutually exclusive states.
I was about to ask why there was an or in the OP's question.
 
Rose said:
Jessi said:
Feminist and camgirl aren't mutually exclusive states.
I was about to ask why there was an or in the OP's question.

Sevrin said:

And yeah, she got a lot of abuse from neanderthals. There's no excuse for that. Mind you, she doesn't tell us anything new. And if you think that's bad, I hope she never opens up the can of worms that is anime.
 
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Sevrin said:
Rose said:
Jessi said:
Feminist and camgirl aren't mutually exclusive states.
I was about to ask why there was an or in the OP's question.

Sevrin said:

And yeah, she got a lot of abuse from neanderthals. There's no excuse for that. Mind you, she doesn't tell us anything new. And if you think that's bad, I hope she never opens up the can of worms that is anime.

Don't you mean that can of Tentacles?? :lol:
 
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She's examining the cultural influence of video games and how they affect us societally. I wouldn't say she's a camgirl because she's not performing sexual acts on camera. She's simply presenting information in a documentary style.

I followed this as it happened and it was horrible. But I don't believe she did all this for the negative attention. It seems like you're implying that she drummed up this drama just to drive kick starter funds, which is a bit insulting to me. The backlash she received was horrible, and inhumane, and an excellent example of why feminism is still an important subject; that event showed that a woman can get death threats and nasty insults thrown at her by men who DON'T EVEN KNOW HER, who simply heard that she will be doing a social critique of video games.

The tone of your original post suggests to me that you think she drummed up this drama to truck and manipulate the emotions of people into funding her kickstarter, and that you think camgirls seem to do the same thing. I know thats not what you said, but thats what it looks like. As everyone has said, feminist and camgirl isn't mutually exclusive, but simply being paid to appear on camera doesn't make you a feminist.

I think I'd have more fun talking about tropes in video games and how they affect women than on the legitimacy of this woman's intentions.
 
NovaNirvana said:
I think I'd have more fun talking about tropes in video games and how they affect women than on the legitimacy of this woman's intentions.

Okay, I'll start:

I was terribly disturbed by the death scenes on the new Tomb Raider. It's as if the developers were getting off on how many ways and how explicitly they could kill a pretty woman. It struck me as really creepy.
 
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zippypinhead said:
NovaNirvana said:
I think I'd have more fun talking about tropes in video games and how they affect women than on the legitimacy of this woman's intentions.

Okay, I'll start:

I was terribly disturbed by the death scenes on the new Tomb Raider. It's as if the developers were getting off on how many ways and how explicitly they could kill a pretty woman. It struck me as really creepy.
That's why I avoided Tomb Raider this time around. I saw a few developer docs where the director talked about how you'd want to 'save' Lara Croft because you couldn't help but feel bad for her. That didn't strike me very much as a character that seemed strong and capable on her own.

Not to mention that I heard they really tried to push attempted rape in there to turn her into a 'caged animal' and explain how she became a badass. Not buying that one either.

Don't know if they caved to the internet's complaints about that before the release date, but it was enough to make me not want to spend my money on it, even if I was very excited for it to begin with.

Now, Bioshock: Infinite on the other hand...
 
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NovaNirvana said:
zippypinhead said:
NovaNirvana said:
I think I'd have more fun talking about tropes in video games and how they affect women than on the legitimacy of this woman's intentions.

Okay, I'll start:

I was terribly disturbed by the death scenes on the new Tomb Raider. It's as if the developers were getting off on how many ways and how explicitly they could kill a pretty woman. It struck me as really creepy.
That's why I avoided Tomb Raider this time around. I saw a few developer docs where the director talked about how you'd want to 'save' Lara Croft because you couldn't help but feel bad for her. That didn't strike me very much as a character that seemed strong and capable on her own.

Not to mention that I heard they really tried to push attempted rape in there to turn her into a 'caged animal' and explain how she became a badass. Not buying that one either.

Don't know if they caved to the internet's complaints about that before the release date, but it was enough to make me not want to spend my money on it, even if I was very excited for it to begin with.

Now, Bioshock: Infinite on the other hand...


I've always been bemused by the "plots" in tomb raider games. I liked 5, but 6 was weird, as she was running around Paris killing police, while trying to clear her name for a murder or something she was accused of doing.

Is the current one still a jump puzzle game of have they gone the whole way to an RPG?
 
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Red7227 said:
Is the current one still a jump puzzle game of have they gone the whole way to an RPG?

As far as I've seen, it's still pretty firmly in the action puzzler genre.

NovaNirvana said:
Not to mention that I heard they really tried to push attempted rape in there to turn her into a 'caged animal' and explain how she became a badass. Not buying that one either.

Don't know if they caved to the internet's complaints about that before the release date, but it was enough to make me not want to spend my money on it, even if I was very excited for it to begin with.

The "rape as character growth" trope is really lazy and cheap, and from what I've seen, the developers didn't cave to any complaints.
 
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zippypinhead said:
The "rape as character growth" trope is really lazy and cheap, and from what I've seen, the developers didn't cave to any complaints.

Yeah, no kidding. I used the "rape" backstory once, but that was to explain the character being so body-shy, withdrawn, and very "prey"-like despite her extensive training in self defense before the event. Not exactly "growth"...
 
In defence of Tomb Raider:

- The "rape leading to character growth" thing doesn't really exist in this game. There's a brief scene at the beginning of the game where she's captured and one of her captors brushes her cheek in a somewhat lecherous fashion and gets killed (by Lara) for his troubles moments later.

- I think this is one instance where there's just no pleasing people. When computer games marginalize female characters, typically using them to appease boyish fantasies, people complain (as they should). When computer games incorporate a strong female character as its lead, people complain because they don't think that that character should be involved in any death scenes (like any male lead character would be).

- Lara Croft is a bad-ass.
 
mynameisbob84 said:
In defence of Tomb Raider:

- The "rape leading to character growth" thing doesn't really exist in this game. There's a brief scene at the beginning of the game where she's captured and one of her captors brushes her cheek in a somewhat lecherous fashion and gets killed (by Lara) for his troubles moments later.

- I think this is one instance where there's just no pleasing people. When computer games marginalize female characters, typically using them to appease boyish fantasies, people complain (as they should). When computer games incorporate a strong female character as its lead, people complain because they don't think that that character should be involved in any death scenes (like any male lead character would be).

- Lara Croft is a bad-ass.

The difference, I think, is the glee that people seem to take in watching her die. In that particular rapey scene, if you lose the button-pressing contest, you get a nice close-up cutscene of Lara getting strangled to death or having her eye shot out of her pretty face. I've certainly considered the "what if this was a male character" angle, but there's just something that strikes me as different about this particular instance. Perhaps I'm being oversensitive, I don't know if I really am. The day the game dropped, "Lara Croft death scene" compilations hit Youtube, complete with comments about masturbation making the top-voted position. That alone strikes me as something a little off in attitude. But more to the point, the way that the deaths in the game work, making it an explicitly shown cutscene event when it happens, makes it -- to me, at least -- less a matter of "you made a mistake and now you're dead," and more along the lines of, "you've made a mistake, and now we're going to savor your sexy death."

That this sort of thing is so casual, and a shrug and a "damned if you do, damned if you don't," brush-off response when it is pointed out, to me, just is not good enough. It doesn't strike me as true because, as far as I see it, the way it's presented is not the same. The subject of death in the game has a weird quality of gender difference to it, and the ways in which Lara Croft dies in this particular game, to me, has some kind of creepy sexual horror aspect to it that seems out of place. Is it really so hard to make a strong female character, and put her in peril without the lovingly-animated scenes of torture and mutilation, without the moaning and heavy breathing? I don't know -- I just find it icky. I've seen these scenes played out in context, and it never seems right to me. There's a real creepy vibe to it that takes it out of the realm of simple peril and give it an underlying misogynistic feeling to me.

:dontknow:
 
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zippypinhead said:
The difference, I think, is the glee that people seem to take in watching her die. In that particular rapey scene, if you lose the button-pressing contest, you get a nice close-up cutscene of Lara getting strangled to death or having her eye shot out of her pretty face. I've certainly considered the "what if this was a male character" angle, but there's just something that strikes me as different about this particular instance. Perhaps I'm being oversensitive, I don't know if I really am. The day the game dropped, "Lara Croft death scene" compilations hit Youtube, complete with comments about masturbation making the top-voted position. That alone strikes me as something a little off in attitude. But more to the point, the way that the deaths in the game work, making it an explicitly shown cutscene event when it happens, makes it -- to me, at least -- less a matter of "you made a mistake and now you're dead," and more along the lines of, "you've made a mistake, and now we're going to savor your sexy death."

That this sort of thing is so casual, and a shrug and a "damned if you do, damned if you don't," brush-off response when it is pointed out, to me, just is not good enough. It doesn't strike me as true because, as far as I see it, the way it's presented is not the same. The subject of death in the game has a weird quality of gender difference to it, and the ways in which Lara Croft dies in this particular game, to me, has some kind of creepy sexual horror aspect to it that seems out of place. Is it really so hard to make a strong female character, and put her in peril without the lovingly-animated scenes of torture and mutilation, without the moaning and heavy breathing? I don't know -- I just find it icky. I've seen these scenes played out in context, and it never seems right to me. There's a real creepy vibe to it that takes it out of the realm of simple peril and give it an underlying misogynistic feeling to me.

:dontknow:

Different games have done death scenes differently. Basically, this is Lara, so she is going to look cute while dying. If you think THAT is strange, do to deviant art and type "impale" or "crucifixion" or for an especially horrid one "Death Duet 17". There are thousands of images of women being impaled, drowned, incinerated, hung, guillotined, sawn in two, etc, etc. Its not even faintly rare or unusua, and seriously, I don'tr care as long as it stays in their imagination. Poor taste or being crass isn't a crime, otherwise Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey would have been banned for crimes against vampire lore and general good taste.
 
zippypinhead said:
The difference, I think, is the glee that people seem to take in watching her die.

Two words for you: crash bandicoot
 
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Sevrin said:
Rose said:
Jessi said:
Feminist and camgirl aren't mutually exclusive states.
I was about to ask why there was an or in the OP's question.

Sevrin said:

And yeah, she got a lot of abuse from neanderthals. There's no excuse for that. Mind you, she doesn't tell us anything new. And if you think that's bad, I hope she never opens up the can of worms that is anime.
My comment was simply in reference to the title of the thread, being a tard. :) I didn't actually read the article or most of the OP.... Shame on me. Lol.
 
Red7227 said:
Poor taste or being crass isn't a crime...

Sometimes it is, depending upon the obscenity laws where you live.

Regarding your other examples, I would say that there is a difference between an individual's particular fantasies made manifest in the form of an upload to dA and a popular media product that has been highly anticipated for years, rated well by gaming critics, and sold over 1 million copies in two days. Your comparison of the game to bodice ripper fiction is a little more apt, although I have to say that violence against vampires isn't a pressing social issue, and violence against women is. Considering and deconstructing the crass and casual mistreatment of females as a form of popular entertainment bears a bit more value than considering and deconstructing the crass and casual mistreatment of prose about the undead.
 
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zippypinhead said:
Red7227 said:
Poor taste or being crass isn't a crime...

Sometimes it is, depending upon the obscenity laws where you live.

Regarding your other examples, I would say that there is a difference between an individual's particular fantasies made manifest in the form of an upload to dA and a popular media product that has been highly anticipated for years, rated well by gaming critics, and sold over 1 million copies in two days.

I think you are taking the thought process behind these decisions too seriously. It is not a plot to disenfranchise women, its a bunch of geeks in a room, who are just out of puberty, deciding what is going to happen when she dies. Being strangled to death is hardly unique, and having an eyeball go flying is more in the "lets be really gross" rather than lets add deep sexual innuendo to the story. Basically, i don't care, I don't think it matters and I'm sure there will be far more gratuitous sex and violence in Saints Row 4 and GTA 5 than there is in a game about some 20 year old Brit prancing about an island.
 
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Red7227 said:
zippypinhead said:
Red7227 said:
Poor taste or being crass isn't a crime...

Sometimes it is, depending upon the obscenity laws where you live.

Regarding your other examples, I would say that there is a difference between an individual's particular fantasies made manifest in the form of an upload to dA and a popular media product that has been highly anticipated for years, rated well by gaming critics, and sold over 1 million copies in two days.

I think you are taking the thought process behind these decisions too seriously. It is not a plot to disenfranchise women, its a bunch of geeks in a room, who are just out of puberty, deciding what is going to happen when she dies. Being strangled to death is hardly unique, and having an eyeball go flying is more in the "lets be really gross" rather than lets add deep sexual innuendo to the story. Basically, i don't care, I don't think it matters and I'm sure there will be far more gratuitous sex and violence in Saints Row 4 and GTA 5 than there is in a game about some 20 year old Brit prancing about an island.

No, see, that's where the "casual" part comes in. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. It is certainly enough that the dynamic is structured in a way that caused people to just not look around at what they're doing and say, "Hey, you guys think that maybe gutting our heroin while she moans and pants is a bit over the top?" It is enough that the dynamic is structured in a way that when it's pointed out, the first statements of defense are either "don't look at it, then!" or "there's worse out there." Gaming is not exclusively a geeky boys' club, anymore. People need to stop pretending like it is.
 
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zippypinhead said:
No, see, that's where the "casual" part comes in. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. It is certainly enough that the dynamic is structured in a way that caused people to just not look around at what they're doing and say, "Hey, you guys think that maybe gutting our heroin while she moans and pants is a bit over the top?" It is enough that the dynamic is structured in a way that when it's pointed out, the first statements of defense are either "don't look at it, then!" or "there's worse out there." Gaming is not exclusively a geeky boys' club, anymore. People need to stop pretending like it is.

Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about. She is pretty and she dies, its been reasonably well handled.

 
In movies/tv/video games, female deaths are generally depicted off-screen, without any sort of comic or graphic feel. Men dying, however, is far more frequent and far more gruesomely depicted. It's usually due to the concept that men are 'powerful' creatures, and their failure is their own fault; however women are 'weaker' creatures, and them failing isn't indicative of any character or ability flaw - but usually the fault of a man who failed to protect her.

To portray a woman character in a video game dying gruesomely just strikes me as viewing her on the same 'powerful' ground as a man - she is responsible for her life, and her own death is significant because it is completely her own responsibility.

So yeah, pervs might comment constantly about masturbating to it, but just cause people respond disgustingly to a portrayal of equality doesn't mean that portrayal is wrong.
 
I don't know if I buy that, either, but maybe what I'm about to say is a connection to your point, Aella. The gruesome death of women is plentiful horror films, where it might be missing in other genres, so maybe that's why this particular bit feels a bit "off" to me. Certainly, when I watch stuff like the clip provided by Red7227, it comes across as horror instead of some different genre, like the action or adventure game that it's sold as. I'll own up to that as a personal feeling; I watch this and I feel horrified. Maybe that makes me a horrible sexist who thinks all women are weak, but I doubt it.

I think this game still works just fine as an illustration of the disparity in its treatment of men vs. its treatment of women. As you say, men get themselves killed all the time in all sorts of stories, and we just shrug it off, yet when a woman is killed, it's generally in order to elicit some sort of thrill. This game doesn't get out of that, not as far as I can see. When I see Lara Croft struggling in vain under the weight of a guy as he pins her down, stabs her in the chest, and then grabs her face and coos at her as she dies, I'm not thinking to myself, "now THAT'S empowerment!" Victimization is not a form of empowerment. The myriad creative deaths of Ms. Croft is not a step forward in gender equality.

And I think that the way that people react to it is just as important as the material itself. The way that people react goes in toward the type of person that this sort of thing is intended to appeal to, and the type of appeal it's supposed to generate. When Isaac Clarke gets ripped apart by space mutants in Dead Space, where are the masturbatory comments then? Dismissing the fact that people -- a lot of them -- are relating violence against a female character with sex is telling. There's either a cue in the material that eliciting the response, or there's something in the culture that normalizes such a response. Either way, that the game or the audience doesn't really seem even be aware of it, let alone willing to really address it in a meaningful way, means to me the that there's a disconnect going on. That we seem so willing to just put up with that sort of behavior, to me, is not okay, because it's not treating the death of women in media as the same sort of device as the death of men.

At any rate, I'm up too late, and I feel like I'm just rambling and spinning my wheels with this particular thread of discourse at the moment, so I'll just switch it up a bit wit two things.

First, the subject of Sevrin's original post, Anita Sarkeesian, has actually posted the first video of her project. So, I guess she's not a big fake faker after all. Notice that it's hit over a million views in two weeks, and also notice all of the response videos there on the sidebar menu.

Second, I'll call attention to the #1ReasonWhy movement on Twitter that's been happening over the last few months, which began as a call for women in the gaming industry to voice their experiences. (Trying to search the hashtags on Twitter can be a bit awful, so I'll just link to this HuffPo article that makes for a good jumping-off point.)

This is an entertainment industry that makes more money than the movies, by the way. I think it's time we stop excusing rampant sexism in something so big and with so much cultural impact as "boys will be boys" behavior, or, worse yet, treating it as if it doesn't exist at all.

Okay, off to bed with me.
 
Aella said:
In movies/tv/video games, female deaths are generally depicted off-screen, without any sort of comic or graphic feel. Men dying, however, is far more frequent and far more gruesomely depicted. It's usually due to the concept that men are 'powerful' creatures, and their failure is their own fault; however women are 'weaker' creatures, and them failing isn't indicative of any character or ability flaw - but usually the fault of a man who failed to protect her.

To portray a woman character in a video game dying gruesomely just strikes me as viewing her on the same 'powerful' ground as a man - she is responsible for her life, and her own death is significant because it is completely her own responsibility.

So yeah, pervs might comment constantly about masturbating to it, but just cause people respond disgustingly to a portrayal of equality doesn't mean that portrayal is wrong.
 
Aella said:
In movies/tv/video games, female deaths are generally depicted off-screen, without any sort of comic or graphic feel. Men dying, however, is far more frequent and far more gruesomely depicted. It's usually due to the concept that men are 'powerful' creatures, and their failure is their own fault; however women are 'weaker' creatures, and them failing isn't indicative of any character or ability flaw - but usually the fault of a man who failed to protect her.

To portray a woman character in a video game dying gruesomely just strikes me as viewing her on the same 'powerful' ground as a man - she is responsible for her life, and her own death is significant because it is completely her own responsibility.

So yeah, pervs might comment constantly about masturbating to it, but just cause people respond disgustingly to a portrayal of equality doesn't mean that portrayal is wrong.

Crap, pushed the wrong button and forgot to edit in time

There is a long interview with the female writer of the latest tomb raider doing the rounds where she covers most of is being discussed.

http://killscreendaily.com/articles/int ... ara-croft/

http://killscreendaily.com/articles/int ... croft-gay/
 
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