Why I no longer tip - one member's experience

[VeronicaChaos]

You get paid to get naked, masturbate, sell homemade porn videos, and various raffles. My bartender does none of these things.
When I tip my bartender its because they work long hours and the pay is low. They went to school to become a bartender and it takes some skill. I tip on MFC to see your breast, ass, pussy, and cum show.

I'm not saying that it doesn't take skill to be a bartender, but the implication that camgirls just get naked and that it takes no skill is pretty fucking insulting. Also, you think that camgirls DON'T work long hours for low pay? Bartenders can make next to nothing as well as a lot, just like with camgirls. Anyway, he wasn't comparing what camgirls physically do with what bartenders do, just the concept of tipping someone for moderating a social establishment.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

Internet porn is for short term satisfaction, not a life investment. And it certainly isn't worth a grand a month.

Not trying to give you a hard time, because I DO get what you're saying (the amounts of money some members spend on MFC is shocking...not necessarily a BAD thing, though)...but the bolded part of your statement kinda rubs me the wrong way. MFC is more than "internet porn," for some of the members on the site. They're not all on there to just jerk off and then log off. They get to experience LIVE webcam chat with lovely ladies they enjoy and look forward to seeing x times a week. We are a form of entertainment and - for some people - the highlight of their day, so who's to say how much it's "worth" a month?

Perhaps he just means it's because the OP said he only used MFC to fap, and never really socialized or cared about the girls on cam. If there's no social aspect, no tipping just to see someone smile, then I understand why $1000 just seems kinda excessive.
Seriously I don't think he was saying that there's anything wrong with spending that much on models you care about, more that $1000 is a lot for a guy to spend on his own penis.

At least that's my interpretation

yeah, what she said. That's what I was talking about, the OP's statement he is in it to get spank material.

I didn't make myself clear as I was stunned over the money spent on what to the Op is simply... internet porn.

If you are getting some additional social benifit from it, and satisfaction that you are after all, helping a nice young lady make a safe and decent living plus making friends, then ok, if you have it, 1K a month while IMHO is a bit much, at least the price is befitting more than your unsatisfiable libido.

In the former, I agree, it's no different than frequenting a club or a bar, being a good tipper and keeping the place in business. Everyone benefits.

The aspect I was referring to is the very narrow slice where the OP seem to be getting only a short lived sexual high and has no other real goal. For that, a grand a month in my mond is no better than a grand a month for a bag of crack. It was more of an WTF are you doing? at the OP's frame of mind than anything else.

You can blow a grand a month on a lot of things, some things are more destructive and selfish than others and that is a fairly relative call.

My nephew shells out a pile of cash monthly for a huge gas hogging new pickup truck he never gets dirty. In my view, he's wasting his money. He doesn't think so... and it is his money, and his kids and wife want for nothing.

Now, if he was sitting in a room spending that sand 1K on MFC, while his kids play outside and his wife is out working or something.... yeah I'd consider that a destructive waste also. If you're young and single, and you spend that and all your time on MFC.... sorry, I think you are wasting your life and your money..... go live life in the real world with that cash.

And if you have a healthy social life, plenty of money, and free time to sit and relax with MFC models, ok I will agree it's the same as sitting at the local club socializing and relaxing, tipping the bartender and the bar maids and patronizing the local business.... fine. That's cool.

Maybe I got a bad first impression from the OP, but it sounded like he was Spending money, being socially disconnected an doing it only to chase a high he'll never catch, while viewing the models as simply material to purchase.

Did I clear that up? :lol:

 

[AmberCutie]

...it's no different than frequenting a club or a bar, being a good tipper and keeping the place in business. Everyone benefits.

It's nice to hear that from a member's mouth.

 

[mynameisbob84]

I almost spit out my drink when I read the comparison of MFC to a local bar. You get paid to get naked, masturbate, sell homemade porn videos, and various raffles. My bartender does none of these things.
When I tip my bartender its because they work long hours and the pay is low. They went to school to become a bartender and it takes some skill.

I'd say it's an apt comparison. Camgirls are hosts, there to keep you entertained and happy as long as you're spending money in their rooms. Bartenders are also hosts of sorts, paid to keep you happy and comfortable as long as you're spending money in their bars.
And while I'm not gonna partake in a debate about whether camming or bartending is the tougher profession, I will say that many, many camgirls work long hours for low pay, and that to be successful on a site like MFC requires more than simply being born with a pair of tits and a vagina that dispenses semen when rubbed just right.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

I read the whole thread, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around WHO spends $1000 a month on internet porn.

I mean no offense, it's your money, you're free to spend it on whatever you like.

However, from my view spending $1000 a month on internet porn seem more like a psychological problem than a luxury.

No offense... but between what you can gleen for free, and perhaps $50 a month I'm not able to grasp what it is that you need that badly.

If I had a kid that was blowing a grand a month on internet porn I'd sit him down and point out all of the wonderful stuff he's not buying.

Romantic dinners and dates with women who will actually love and fuck you.
Savings for your children
Retirement security
Gifts for your loved ones
for fucks sake... give $400 a month to an animal shelter, $400 to a homeless shelter, $100 for the lovely hard working cam girls and $100 for a monthly chat with a cut rate shrink.

I'm sorry if it pisses anyone off, but if the OP isn't a shockingly wealthy person, he has a some serious personal issues.

Quite frankly, even if you're shockingly wealthy, blowing $1000 a month on internet porn is a waste.

And I know, there are people to whom 1K is like $10 to the rest of us. It's actually a pity that money ends up blinding people to that degree once they get it, and they forget it's value to do something constructive.

The idea anyone spends $1000 a month, to beat off in front of a computer gives me a headache, a nose bleed and makes me really, really sad all at the same time.

For $1000 bucks a month, you could make a wife really, really happy. Just sayin. :?

Ok Paulie, I have two words for you: Disposable income.

When I was studying fashion/marketing we used to spend a lot of time looking at customers and what they spend on. There are some people who have fairly high wages, but they also have a wife/husband, children, a dog, a cat, mouths to feed, a mortgage, which means their free money (which is another word which I can't remember right now) actually doesn't come down to much.

But you get some people, in fashion it's the kind of women/men who'd shop at high end high street or maybe even designer shops. Yes to many many people buying a dress worth £800 if ridiculous, but if you're earning 4 grand a month, you don't have children, not currently saving much for the future, your apartment could cost you an extra grand a month, but you still end up having a couple of grand left over after essentials, so hey! you put 1 away into savings, and you spend the rest on shopping! Or some people go out for meals/order take away every night/day, never cooking, it works out the same.
In this case the luxury/thing you'd be buying is interactive porn.
You absolutely never know someone's situation. Some people don't want to get married, some don't want/don't have children. Yes that money could make a wife very happy, but if you ain't got no wife and can't get no dates, then does that mean you shouldn't spend it on something that you do enjoy?

It's very easy for someone else to say "Oh my god, you spend so much on that! you could give some to charity!" Without once looking at their own spending.

I think you'd only have a problem spending that much if you couldn't afford it and did have a wife/family, because then you'd run them/yourself into the ground. If you're single you are allowed to be selfish with your money, and I don't think it's fair for other people to bitch about it because they chose a different life. Yes it's a lot, but I bet there are things everyone spends a bit too much money on! With me it's nice food and going out with my friends, for smokers sometimes they're dirt poor but choose to spend £15 on cigarettes a day! I know some people who spend £20 per day on taxi's when there are easy buses/things are in walking distance! It's silly but it's a luxury that person it choosing to enjoy! If having a decent wank per day is what someone wants, then who says they can't have it because it's not how we'd spend our free cash?

I understand the idea of disposable income. I agree, the goal of making money in business is to have disposable income to do things you couldn't do before.

In my mind however, no income is "disposable". Spending $50 on something simply because you have $50 and it's not something you really want, like or need is one of the problems with making buttloads of money.... you lose sight of it's value, and you end up never being satisfied.

I've never met anyone who is really wealthy, who was actually happy with any of the crap they buy. Spending "disposable income" is like a drug, after a short time, you need more, and enjoy it less.

But my comment was directed narrowly a the OP's statement he spent that much simply to beat off, with no residual benefit or social enjoyment past the act.

Maybe I didn't understand his point?

 

[Matt255]

I almost spit out my drink when I read the comparison of MFC to a local bar. You get paid to get naked, masturbate, sell homemade porn videos, and various raffles. My bartender does none of these things.
When I tip my bartender its because they work long hours and the pay is low. They went to school to become a bartender and it takes some skill.

I'd say it's an apt comparison. Camgirls are hosts, there to keep you entertained and happy as long as you're spending money in their rooms. Bartenders are also hosts of sorts, paid to keep you happy and comfortable as long as you're spending money in their bars.
And while I'm not gonna partake in a debate about whether camming or bartending is the tougher profession, I will say that many, many camgirls work long hours for low pay, and that to be successful on a site like MFC requires more than simply being born with a pair of tits and a vagina that dispenses semen when rubbed just right.

My best friend is a bartender who is with my right now and feels completely offended by the comparison. Bartenders and hosts are completely different. Bartenders are there to make your drinks and to provide a friendly service as do all people who work with people. She said she would love to sit on a camera for a few hours while getting paid to pleasure herself,but she does not feel it a long term career choice.

 

[JickyJuly]

I almost spit out my drink when I read the comparison of MFC to a local bar. You get paid to get naked, masturbate, sell homemade porn videos, and various raffles. My bartender does none of these things.
When I tip my bartender its because they work long hours and the pay is low. They went to school to become a bartender and it takes some skill.

I'd say it's an apt comparison. Camgirls are hosts, there to keep you entertained and happy as long as you're spending money in their rooms. Bartenders are also hosts of sorts, paid to keep you happy and comfortable as long as you're spending money in their bars.
And while I'm not gonna partake in a debate about whether camming or bartending is the tougher profession, I will say that many, many camgirls work long hours for low pay, and that to be successful on a site like MFC requires more than simply being born with a pair of tits and a vagina that dispenses semen when rubbed just right.

My best friend is a bartender who is with my right now and feels completely offended by the comparison. Bartenders and hosts are completely different. Bartenders are there to make your drinks and to provide a friendly service as do all people who work with people. She said she would love to sit on a camera for a few hours while getting paid to pleasure herself,but she does not feel it a long term career choice.

Let her try camming for a few days and then she can say whether she's "offended" by the comparison. Heck, tell her to try bartending in the nude for a night. It'll up her tips, but it also ups the shit you'll be dealing with factor. I certainly don't think bartender is any more illustrious a long term career choice than camgirl. Your assertion that bartenders are not well compensated is also incorrect. A good bartender in a decent place can make bank. The reason that camgirls can easily be compared to bartenders, waitstaff, hairdressers, strippers etc is that we're all in the service industry. No service industry job is especially easy or short on asshats waiting to try to get something for free. As a failed waitress and a retired cosmetologist (I went to school for that btw... does that somehow make me more deserving of tips or respect?) I can say for sure that we all deal with the same crap just worded differently.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

If they swapped places for a week, both the bartender and the cam model would find they both work for a living, just doing different jobs.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, until you get on the other side, and discover another fence with apparently greener grass on the other side. Cut your losses and understand, it's all the same grass.

 

[DanniShimmers]

My best friend is a bartender who is with my right now and feels completely offended by the comparison. Bartenders and hosts are completely different. Bartenders are there to make your drinks and to provide a friendly service as do all people who work with people. She said she would love to sit on a camera for a few hours while getting paid to pleasure herself,but she does not feel it a long term career choice.

If she thinks that's all we've got to do to make money, she's got some serious misconceptions about what it takes to be a successful cam model. If I just sat on camera for a few hours and did nothing, I'd make absolutely jack shit. Sometimes I feel like my room is a circus and I'm the ringleader, and I've got to hustle hustle hustle. I've served customers in a restaurant and run a webcam room. They're the same amount of work. And with camming, my shift doesn't end when I log off for the night - I've still got to prep for my next cam session. And honestly, sometimes the pay is the same too... if not worse.

 

[VeronicaChaos]

Bartenders are there to make your drinks and to provide a friendly service as do all people who work with people. She said she would love to sit on a camera for a few hours while getting paid to pleasure herself,but she does not feel it a long term career choice.

I would love to chill in a bar for a few hours while getting paid to play with alcohol, but I don't think it would be a good long term career choice.

(I'm obviously being sarcastic, they're both hard jobs. I'm pointing out that your friend is a dick.)

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

As for the poor bartender crap... I was a bartender for a few yrs in a shithole dive in the backwater of nowhere. I'll say one thing for alcoholics and bar patrons, they spend a lot of money. We were only busy on the weekends but that was a great job, I made a lot of cash. Real cash nobody ever saw, BTW. A cam model has to deal with bank accounts and traceable incomes that they get taxed and fee'd to death over.

yeah... poor hard working bartenders who earn no money. Right.
The barmaids made MORE, but they also put up with all the drunken bullshit I didnt have to behind the bar. So I never thought "damn, I wanna be a bar maid, they make more money and all they have to do is ferry drinks around the room!"

BTW... a lot of bartenders do not and have never attended or paid for "schooling" to be a bartender. If you want to work in a high end club, sure... it'll help you get a good job. Most middle class bars and clubs have bartenders who just learned really fast one busy night, how to be a bartender.

 

[sweetiebatman]

But the first Rule of Bartending school, is you dont talk about bartending school!

IO think we are going for some kind of record of condescending posts made inone thread by different users here! :lol:

 

[mynameisbob84]

I almost spit out my drink when I read the comparison of MFC to a local bar. You get paid to get naked, masturbate, sell homemade porn videos, and various raffles. My bartender does none of these things.
When I tip my bartender its because they work long hours and the pay is low. They went to school to become a bartender and it takes some skill.

I'd say it's an apt comparison. Camgirls are hosts, there to keep you entertained and happy as long as you're spending money in their rooms. Bartenders are also hosts of sorts, paid to keep you happy and comfortable as long as you're spending money in their bars.
And while I'm not gonna partake in a debate about whether camming or bartending is the tougher profession, I will say that many, many camgirls work long hours for low pay, and that to be successful on a site like MFC requires more than simply being born with a pair of tits and a vagina that dispenses semen when rubbed just right.

My best friend is a bartender who is with my right now and feels completely offended by the comparison. Bartenders and hosts are completely different. Bartenders are there to make your drinks and to provide a friendly service as do all people who work with people. She said she would love to sit on a camera for a few hours while getting paid to pleasure herself,but she does not feel it a long term career choice.

Is she really that easily offended? That must be exhausting :?

I've been working in retail for about ten years now and I've done bar work in the past too (don't worry, I'm also at school getting a degree right now - I assume that makes my opinion more valid) and I can confirm that any job that requires you to be on your feet all day, dealing with the asshole public is the shitz.
Camgirls may not have the most physically taxing job in the world (and to be clear, neither do I and neither does your friend) but they still have to deal with the asshole public day in day out, they still have to work potentially long hours, they still have to work hard, and if they're gonna be successful, they need to be smart (like, smart enough to go to school and stuff, yeah?). Plus, they don't have the safety net of guaranteed income and an hourly wage. If they don't get tipped, they don't get paid.
I wouldn't presume to know what it's like to be a camgirl but nor would I be so ignorant as to assume that while camming may look "easy" from an outsiders point of view, it isn't every bit as challenging, frustrating and worthwhile as the jobs I've held and the job your friend currently holds.

 

[Matt255]

Hopefully she will make her own account so you guys discuss this with her personally. Do not call my friend a dick I did not post anything calling you a cunt or bitch nor did she ask me to post it for her. Yes, she was offended and please you can easily offend anyone. Everyone deals with asshole public on a 24/7 basis. Especially if you are the on the internet where you can be criticized by anonymous people around the world.

 

[sweetiebatman]

So let me get this straight, SHE was offended so you thought you would come on here and offend a good 75% of this site, being a camgirls site?

Give us a wave from up there on the moral high ground :lol:

 

[mynameisbob84]

Hopefully she will make her own account so you guys discuss this with her personally. Do not call my friend a dick I did not post anything calling you a cunt or bitch nor did she ask me to post it for her. Yes, she was offended and please you can easily offend anyone. Everyone deals with asshole public on a 24/7 basis. Especially if you are the on the internet where you can be criticized by anonymous people around the world.

Nowhere did I call your friend a dick, sir. You're inferring things that simply aren't there. Yes, people can become offended easily, but that doesn't make their opinion any more reasoned. And not every profession calls for daily interaction with the public. Camming, retail, bartending... sure. Office work, journalism, working in a warehouse etc... not so much.

EDIT: I just read back, and just saw that your friend was in fact branded a dick (though not by me).

 

[JickyJuly]

Where's Jolene? Bring on the ear punches!

 

[Loslonelyboy]

Time to offend someone......Matt255.......You sir, are a douchebag! How dare you pretend to know what a cam model goes through or how hard her job is? A lot of these girls pour their heart and souls into what they do and for you to come on here and act like their job is easy..........that makes you...let me say again.......a douchebag! :handgestures-salute:

 

[AmberCutie]

 

[meggleheart]

Time to offend someone......Matt255.......You sir, are a douchebag! How dare you pretend to know what a cam model goes through or how hard her job is? A lot of these girls pour their heart and souls into what they do and for you to come on here and act like their job is easy..........that makes you...let me say again.......a douchebag! :handgestures-salute:

This. Matt, you have no fucking clue how HARD it is to "please" yourself for money. We have to do all the work, selling ourselves, getting guys in there paying. We have to keep the conversation going, otherwise people will start leaving. We have to come up with good enough shows that people will want to tip/pay for. As a cam girl, you have to tease for free (and sometimes make min wage or less), deal with assholes, people who want to be your friend and get sad when you remind them it's how you make a living, people who are paying who are still really hard to deal with, etc. Most privates I am not pleasing myself, but the customer. I'm catering to his requests. I'm getting in doggy and fucking myself for him until my hand hurts, or fucking myself all day until my pussy gets sore (do you know what it's like to have a vagina? seems pretty easy right? no), or riding a dildo (harder than riding dick for sure) until I get sweaty. A lot of times I'm catering to his specific fetish/fantasy -- most of the time not one I share. I'm dealing with creepers who come into my room with names of my old user accounts. It doesn't stop there. It's worth it because I enjoy it but to say it's easy, that all we do is sit there and masturbate? No fucking no. By the way this is how I support myself as a college student, watching all my friends struggle to find jobs even with cars and experience -- not that the circumstances of a cam girl's life should even matter one bit.

 

[AmberCutie]

It doesn't matter if people think one job is harder than another. They are comparable because they both involve providing a service for people, and also the amount we/they make can be greatly increased by the amount of entertainment and friendliness/personable interaction we provide alongside this service.

I most definitely agree that comparing sitting around on MFC for hours on end chatting with a group of regulars/friends and tipping the model (whose room you're in) with sitting around a bar/restaruant for hours chatting with a group of regulars/friends and tipping your waitress or bartender is very accurate. The fact that the bartender ain't diddling her fiddle, and the model ain't pouring glasses of beer is irrelevant and doesn't need to be brought up.

Unless of course you're on a high horse and think that just because the bartender/waitress is DRESSED makes her more deserving... then sure it should be brought up. But prepare to be called a dick or a douche.

Edited to add: I tip my bartenders and waitresses very very well if they provide more than just "here's your beer and food".

 

[LilyMarie]

Regarding the whole 'camgirls just pleasure themselves for money'...
It's understandable to have preconceptions about something when you don't know a lot about it.
Most people I know would say, 'A camgirl? So you mean, you get naked and masturbate and that's all you do?' if I told them about my job. Then I'd tell them about all the networking, computer work, thinking and shopping that goes into it, and in the end they'd be a bit smarter!
It's not cool to go around sticking to your rock solid views even though people who clearly know more about the subject keep telling you you're wrong. Makes you look pretty stupid and unreasonable.

 

[ComicOzzie]

I read the whole thread, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around WHO spends $1000 a month on internet porn.

I mean no offense, it's your money, you're free to spend it on whatever you like.

However, from my view spending $1000 a month on internet porn seem more like a psychological problem than a luxury.

No offense... but between what you can gleen for free, and perhaps $50 a month I'm not able to grasp what it is that you need that badly.

If I had a kid that was blowing a grand a month on internet porn I'd sit him down and point out all of the wonderful stuff he's not buying.

Romantic dinners and dates with women who will actually love and fuck you.
Savings for your children
Retirement security
Gifts for your loved ones
for fucks sake... give $400 a month to an animal shelter, $400 to a homeless shelter, $100 for the lovely hard working cam girls and $100 for a monthly chat with a cut rate shrink.

I'm sorry if it pisses anyone off, but if the OP isn't a shockingly wealthy person, he has a some serious personal issues.

Quite frankly, even if you're shockingly wealthy, blowing $1000 a month on internet porn is a waste.

And I know, there are people to whom 1K is like $10 to the rest of us. It's actually a pity that money ends up blinding people to that degree once they get it, and they forget it's value to do something constructive.

The idea anyone spends $1000 a month, to beat off in front of a computer gives me a headache, a nose bleed and makes me really, really sad all at the same time.

For $1000 bucks a month, you could make a wife really, really happy. Just sayin. :?

I don't spend my money on internet porn. I spend my money on MFC.

 

[AllisonWilder]

Have any of you non-models ever danced, fucked yourself, danced, gagged on a dildo, danced, fucked yourself again, danced, fucked yourself and then danced some more all while wearing a smile on your face and being witty and entertaining and dealing with assface trolls for 4-8 hours straight? I highly doubt it. Some of these dedicated ladies do 12-24 hour cam-a-thons. Can you even imagine how fucking exhausting that must be?



For Matt's imaginary friend:

 

[Matt255]

This is clearly snowballing because I never said easy or hard I was comparing what webcam girls do for tips compared to a bartender. Like I posted before if she makes account complain to her about it.

 

[sweetiebatman]

NO, this is clearly backtracking :lol:

 

[LailaBaise]

Why the hell should we complain to her about it when you thought it pertinent to bring this information to our attention?

 

[Matt255]

Its not my problem that your pussy is sore are you have to fake a smile to get tips. Find another profession since it is so hard. If one comment like that can offend so many there must be some truth behind it. Every time I post my words are taken LITERAL sometimes I get a response that makes me see a different view. Most of the time its just white knights and non popular opinions trolling. I am done with this particular discussion in this thread. If you want you can pm me with your problems.

 

[mynameisbob84]

This is clearly snowballing because I never said easy or hard I was comparing what webcam girls do for tips compared to a bartender. Like I posted before if she makes account complain to her about it.

I had a post typed out but then my computer crashed and I lost it and I can't be arsed to re-type it but the gist of it can be found in this video between 2:11 and 2:16...

 

[LadyLuna]

I almost spit out my drink when I read the comparison of MFC to a local bar. You get paid to get naked, masturbate, sell homemade porn videos, and various raffles. My bartender does none of these things.
When I tip my bartender its because they work long hours and the pay is low. They went to school to become a bartender and it takes some skill.

I'd say it's an apt comparison. Camgirls are hosts, there to keep you entertained and happy as long as you're spending money in their rooms. Bartenders are also hosts of sorts, paid to keep you happy and comfortable as long as you're spending money in their bars.
And while I'm not gonna partake in a debate about whether camming or bartending is the tougher profession, I will say that many, many camgirls work long hours for low pay, and that to be successful on a site like MFC requires more than simply being born with a pair of tits and a vagina that dispenses semen when rubbed just right.

My best friend is a bartender who is with my right now and feels completely offended by the comparison. Bartenders and hosts are completely different. Bartenders are there to make your drinks and to provide a friendly service as do all people who work with people. She said she would love to sit on a camera for a few hours while getting paid to pleasure herself,but she does not feel it a long term career choice.

1. A bartender earns an hourly wage + tips. A camgirl earns commission, part of which is the tips, part of which is the private. So yes, the earnings are not quite comparable. If none of the customers give the bartender money, she will still get a paycheck from the bar, but if none of the customers give them camgirl money, she will not get paid.

2. A bartender just has to know how to mix drinks to get paid, but if they know how to deal with people, they will get the tips on top of their paychecks. A camgirl who doesn't know how to deal with people will never get money.

3. A bartender simply has to mix drinks for the customers, and maybe provide friendly conversation, and occasionally signal to the bouncers that this or that customer needs to go away. A camgirl has to try to stay sexy while dealing with people doing their damndest to make them feel not sexy. She can choose to make less and stick with only doing what she likes, or she can choose to make more and pretend to like things that really make her pussy dry up, or make even more and deal with things that make her want to run away screaming and/or crying.

4. By saying that you tip the bartender cause of their skill, but don't tip camgirls for their skill, you are implying that camming takes no skill. The truth is, some camgirls don't need skill, but the majority of camgirls need more than just skill, they need creativity and imagination. Skills can be learned by people who have none. Creativity and imagination can be expanded, but there MUST be some there to start with.