Why aren't trans women allowed models only access?

[Deleted member 35180]

That's entirely my point. Once you move that line, then the next in line ARE the 'simply crossdressers.' And then they will be just as indignant about not being allowed in as you are about trans-gendered in this thread. Make the line gray, and it will get contested non stop until you obliterate the line. Also, how do you confirm those people are sure of being female? You just made an assumption there. How does Amber determine they are sure of being female?

Again, if I publicly stated tomorrow that I was female. How would you prove me wrong? By your definition that's all it takes to be allowed access. There's no way to confirm that I was lying, or any other male who showed up here. There goes the private female club ya got back there in the MO section. On the other hand, being verified on a cam site as female by an independent company who checks ID's, maybe that's a good standard that isn't so gray of a line. It definitely is a legal one.




Such a leading question. But you do bring up an interesting point. Do I personally think there should be whites only establishments? Of course not, don't be ridiculous. Do I think private establishments should have the right under the law to make white only places? Well...

Hate to burst your bubble, but private and public are two completely different issues under the law. And 'just white' private establishments are completely legal. So are private establishments that don't allow women, or Jews, or homosexuals, or even taxi drivers from Finland for that matter. Anything you want to discriminate in your privately owned club is entirely legal. Hell, there's clubs where you have to be smart to join. If you can't pass an IQ test, MENSA tells you to take your dumb self out the door.

The Federal law you are no doubt thinking of right now about discrimination against a person's race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information. Well, that primarily pertains to employment discrimination. But wait you say, there's also laws against discriminating in clubs! The boy scouts had to open their membership to girls after all. There's several cases like that happening!!!

Well, that's public clubs. Private ones can still discriminate any way they wish. As long as it is not open to the public for membership, they can rule out anyone. This forum has a public section that is open to all, including trans-gendered. But the private section, aka models only, is a private club that has the stipulations of being female, and publicly camming on a site as a female, to enter. Perfectly legal. Another example is Curves for women fitness clubs. Private exercise clubs for women only where males are not allowed to join. Don't like it? Start up your own fitness center that allows everyone.

Ironically there would be first and fourteenth amendment issues at play if someone tried to force Amber to accept people she didn't want to. Because that would then be infringing on the legal rights of a persons privately owned asset. Yeah, she's more protected under the constitution for having the rule in place, than someone is if they try to force her to do away with it.

I had to laugh just cause "Hell, there's clubs where you have to be smart to join. If you can't pass an IQ test, MENSA tells you to take your dumb self out the door." Thanks for the comic relief.

But seriously, I addressed not having a clue on how it could be done to"
Also, how do you confirm those people are sure of being female? You just made an assumption there. How does Amber determine they are sure of being female?

Again, if I publicly stated tomorrow that I was female. How would you prove me wrong? By your definition that's all it takes to be allowed access. There's no way to confirm that I was lying, or any other male who showed up here. There goes the private female club ya got back there in the MO section. On the other hand, being verified on a cam site as female by an independent company who checks ID's, maybe that's a good standard that isn't so gray of a line. It definitely is a legal one."

and I even said "Anyone have any ideas?" at the end of my post. Did I make an assumption there or did you not read my full post? As far as "being verified on a camsite as female should be the standard" Well I dunno, it sounds like some models here are saying that MFC is too strict on this and they'd like to see ACF be a leader in inclusivity here. I don't know much about this, take it up with someone who posted about it? Legality and morality are two different things, and it seems the sjws always fight the battle long and hard before it is recognized as law.

 

[JickyJuly]

Oh I'll agree full force on the "it's ultimately her site and her decision, if people don't like it they can start their own" bit, but just because she's MFC only, doesn't mean she's kept her forum that way.

Dunno if it ever was an MFC only forum? Don't know if it should matter now that it's not anyway.

Yeah. I don't think you've understood my comment. I didn't say anything about if "they" don't like it "they" can start their own or reiterate the obvious fact that this is Amber's site and her decision. I was saying that since Amber is an MFC model and this is her site, I consider this to be an MFC site primarily. It doesn't benefit the trans models (and there are some I believe) of MFC to come out publicly as trans as it is against MFC rules. I was pointing out that it's silly to assume there are no trans models in model's only now instead of just guessing that info is kept private to stay within MFC guidelines. IDK. To me, it makes sense that an MFC model would apply MFC rules to her own site in order to make things easy for herself and protect MFC models who are trans from being too open with other girls and outing themselves in a way that could create problems for them on MFC.

 

[Finley]

I haven't read all of this.

Including trans women in models only would be ethical and wise of ACF.

Amber can do whatever she wants, it is her site. But we can ask that she please make ACF an inclusive space for all women, including trans women.

 

[Deleted member 35180]

Yeah. I don't think you've understood my comment. I didn't say anything about if "they" don't like it "they" can start their own or reiterate the obvious fact that this is Amber's site and her decision. I was saying that since Amber is an MFC model and this is her site, I consider this to be an MFC site primarily. It doesn't benefit the trans models (and there are some I believe) of MFC to come out publicly as trans as it is against MFC rules. I was pointing out that it's silly to assume there are no trans models in model's only now instead of just guessing that info is kept private to stay within MFC guidelines. IDK. To me, it makes sense that an MFC model would apply MFC rules to her own site in order to make things easy for herself and protect MFC models who are trans from being too open with other girls and outing themselves in a way that could create problems for them on MFC.

My quotation there was more so on the general comments that have been made here about it being her site. Sorry if you thought I was putting words in your mouth/quoting you specifically. If this is an MFC site primarily that's interesting to know, but I see girls in the models only section that seem to be streamate only, or chaturbate, I don't know what their rules are on trans models? Seems like you've got a very legitimate point there that it might be dangerous to out yourself in the forum before you're legally accepted on MFC. I must have not gotten that.

 

[mynameisbob84]

I can empathise with those on both sides of the argument. I do think that trans-women should be included in MO. If it's a space for female models then trans-women should be welcome.

But at the same time, I don't see how Amber can implement that without making a shit-load of unpaid extra work for herself, making the MO section less of a safe space for models (as it will be easier to gain access to), and still offending groups of people even after opening things up to be more inclusive.

So what should be a simple question and answer - "should trans-women be included in a private section of the forum intended for female models?" "Yes. Yes, they should. Of course they should" - isn't as simple as it would be in a perfect world. How does Amber verify transgendered models? How far along do they have to be in their transition? What's the cut-off point? If I set up a model account on Chaturbate tomorrow and list my gender as "female", am I allowed in? If not, why not? Should the models who would willingly sacrifice the relative security of MO to make it more inclusive have more of a say than those wouldn't? Are those who wouldn't, wrong to be concerned about their privacy?

Pandora's box, innit. I don't envy Amber on this one.

 

[Violet Dawn]

I haven't read all of this.

Including trans women in models only would be ethical and wise of ACF.

Amber can do whatever she wants, it is her site. But we can ask that she please make ACF an inclusive space for all women, including trans women.

I agree with this. It would be nice to have a place for trans models and regular models so they can share helpful tips and such that aren't normally in the public section.

I can still understand people wanting to keep the models only section we have right now though, maybe an add on? But that might be a lot of work to maintain as well.

 

[Pluot]

I am fully aware that this is Amber's site, under her control. All I am aiming to gain from this topic is to have an open discussion- if any changes come from this, that would be wonderful, but are definitely not expected. I don't feel any negativity towards Amber or her decisions; it's her site and her choice, of course.

Why do we continually peg trans women as being possibly dangerous? Why is this still an excuse to exclude them? I can't accept that for being the reason to not allow them in. If you are comparing trans women to men or crossdressers- you are obviously missing the point. You aren't seeing them for who they ARE. Women.

Clearly, I have strong views about this.
I am definitely emotionally invested in this topic. So, instead of attempting to say everything in my own words and getting upset, I'd appreciate it if you'd please educate yourself further on the experience of transgender individuals: http://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq

There is so much information out there about how to be better at being inclusive. Let's all do our part to be kind and empathetic. Thank you for taking the time to be a part of this discussion. Communicating about this is so important.

 

[AmberCutie]

I'll start this post off by saying that I'm taking the night off of camming (my actual job, lol) during my rank megamonth to dive into the process of a new format for ACF. I think many folks feel like it's just the flip of a switch and your wishes are granted as far as how the forum is run. Yes, it's been a couple years since I said I may update the process, so my apologies for the delay. However, Jawbs and I have been brainstorming for a long long while on how to implement a change to the forum that made it more inclusive to everyone.

The ultimate move will be to make site specific subforums available to cam models who are approved and active on those cam sites. This way, folks who are actively camming on specific cam sites are approved for access to a private area for their cam site(s) to exchange chat with their "coworkers", regardless of how they identify. There will also be general areas where ALL approved cam models can convene regardless of site affiliation. The current "Additional Verification" thread will be restarted, and every cam model or couple will post there with a picture and links to their active cam site profiles. Any active cam model will be eligible for their applicable site section.

My hip surgery in early 2015 certainly set us back as we were focusing on my recovery, and making the most of my up-time to get my MFC schedule back on track. But now I'm back on my feet, and, since plans were in the works already and this subject comes to blinding light again in the last 2 days, I'll go ahead set some extra time aside to finalize the next/current step to get it underway right now instead of waiting until next month.

The first step toward this was moving to this forum software that would allow us to re-format permissions and subforums (done!).

The next step was identifying the path of least resistance as far as future verification and site organization goes. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, not every girl who has posted in the private section would be open to the idea of their Models Only posts being veiwed by a larger audience than what currently exists. Knowing this, I've already created a few site specific subforum categories to test out how that separation went.

Current step is putting up a dev forum so I can rearrange this thing to high-hell, move and archive some current content, and figure out the final format so that it isn't a jumbled mess when it goes live. I'll make as much progress on that as I can before I run out of gas tonight. Then final pushes will be done very soon.

Last step will be the new approval process, which will likely start in April to give all current ACF models time to help me reorganize previous threads in a comfortable way. (And so I can focus on my megamonth without a ton of extra sidetracking. )

As noted above, it isn't just an on/off switch.

Next I will say that discussion is fine and always encouraged, but comments like this:

You definitely DO have something against trans women if you are actively excluding them.

only serve to insult the person who uses her personal private time to make this place run. It's really just vague name-calling. So if we could not say stuff like this, that would be appreciated. In the past I have welcomed others to create and run their own camming forum if they were unhappy being part of mine when some have assumed "it can't be that hard".

Anyway, It was never a personal bias. It should not need to be stated again, but I personally have NO issues with how people choose to identify themselves. Trying to use the fact that both my husband and I haven't had the personal time to make the necessary changes to the forum and policies as a indicator of my beliefs is pretty uncalled for and unnecessary.

And seriously...

Where's the line? And more importantly, how the fuck does anyone confirm that? Impossible. Oh, large burly hair filled chested man with a 3 foot beard, you SAY you identify as a woman. Welcome in! Fucking nonsense. Once you start pushing the line back, you might as well throw out the standard all together. Because I promise you once you do that, then the next person who 'just barely' doesn't get approved will be bitching up a storm about how dare we in this day and age not allow this and that.

The ultimate reason that ACF hasn't been updated IS because I was afraid of the approval process being a judgment call that could create a huge mess or cause backlash, and additionally not having time to dedicate to implementing propery changes to the format... can you just not? The words used in your post are a bit more inflammatory than necessary to get that point across, friend.

I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong Amber, not going to tag you in case you don't end up reading through this entire thread) that she gets BAF referrals and exposure from us ALL being here, so I believe this is a giant symbiotic community, not just one selfless model creating a forum for the rest.

I do not get BAF or other cam site affiliate income from ACF whatsoever for years now. Back in the early years, I made a few BAF tokens that were sent to other models. I've turned down many sponsor requests to keep ACF clear of banners and ads. I've made precisely $67 over the last couple months from people buying ACF owl gear, but that's all. So yes, this is me running this for you all in my off-cam time, models and members alike. As you note yes my name gets exposure for being at the top of this site, but that can also be a really big responsibility and burden, as we address here with this whole subject, for example.

Dunno if it ever was an MFC only forum? Don't know if it should matter now that it's not anyway.

When I first put this up, yes it was only MFC.

The allure of forbidden fruit is pretty strong. Now, it isn't worth to go through an entire sex change operation to gain access to models only.

However, I'm pretty sure that 18 or 19 year old me, with a higher testosterone level and some decent hacking skills would have devoted time and energy to becoming a verified trans model. It is doubtful that would have resisted the temptation to share some of what I learned in models only with other members. It seems to me this would have a chilling effect of what's posted in MO.

In the past we have dealt with some very persistent trolls whom I have NO doubt would have gone to lengths to get verified on CB to have access to the MO section. Many people here don't know the behind the scenes effort that has gone into dealing with these individuals.

So to wrap this up so I can get to work, I understand and hear everyone's concerns. Clearly I've been defensive of my reasons for doing things how I do because this is NOT my job and it can feel like an attack, or people being entitled or unappreciative, when people go dictating how things should run here at ACF. If you could avoid posting inflammatory remarks and judgey comments in this thread, I'd really be appreciative. I'm working on it. I'll need some assistance in the coming weeks to get things underway, and I'd rather do this in a friendly environment where I don't feel my character is under attack.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Lelo1]

mplement a change to the forum that made it more inclusive to everyone.

 

[Deleted member 35180]

I'll start this post off by saying that I'm taking the night off of camming (my actual job, lol) during my rank megamonth to dive into the process of a new format for ACF. I think many folks feel like it's just the flip of a switch and your wishes are granted as far as how the forum is run. Yes, it's been a couple years since I said I may update the process, so my apologies for the delay. However, Jawbs and I have been brainstorming for a long long while on how to implement a change to the forum that made it more inclusive to everyone.

The ultimate move will be to make site specific subforums available to cam models who are approved and active on those cam sites. This way, folks who are actively camming on specific cam sites are approved for access to a private area for their cam site(s) to exchange chat with their "coworkers", regardless of how they identify. There will also be general areas where ALL approved cam models can convene regardless of site affiliation. The current "Additional Verification" thread will be restarted, and every cam model or couple will post there with a picture and links to their active cam site profiles. Any active cam model will be eligible for their applicable site section.

My hip surgery in early 2015 certainly set us back as we were focusing on my recovery, and making the most of my up-time to get my MFC schedule back on track. But now I'm back on my feet, and, since plans were in the works already and this subject comes to blinding light again in the last 2 days, I'll go ahead set some extra time aside to finalize the next/current step to get it underway right now instead of waiting until next month.

The first step toward this was moving to this forum software that would allow us to re-format permissions and subforums (done!).

The next step was identifying the path of least resistance as far as future verification and site organization goes. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, not every girl who has posted in the private section would be open to the idea of their Models Only posts being veiwed by a larger audience than what currently exists. Knowing this, I've already created a few site specific subforum categories to test out how that separation went.

Current step is putting up a dev forum so I can rearrange this thing to high-hell, move and archive some current content, and figure out the final format so that it isn't a jumbled mess when it goes live. I'll make as much progress on that as I can before I run out of gas tonight. Then final pushes will be done very soon.

Last step will be the new approval process, which will likely start in April to give all current ACF models time to help me reorganize previous threads in a comfortable way. (And so I can focus on my megamonth without a ton of extra sidetracking. )

As noted above, it isn't just an on/off switch.

Next I will say that discussion is fine and always encouraged, but comments like this:



only serve to insult the person who uses her personal private time to make this place run. It's really just vague name-calling. So if we could not say stuff like this, that would be appreciated. In the past I have welcomed others to create and run their own camming forum if they were unhappy being part of mine when some have assumed "it can't be that hard".

Anyway, It was never a personal bias. It should not need to be stated again, but I personally have NO issues with how people choose to identify themselves. Trying to use the fact that both my husband and I haven't had the personal time to make the necessary changes to the forum and policies as a indicator of my beliefs is pretty uncalled for and unnecessary.

And seriously...


The ultimate reason that ACF hasn't been updated IS because I was afraid of the approval process being a judgment call that could create a huge mess or cause backlash, and additionally not having time to dedicate to implementing propery changes to the format... can you just not? The words used in your post are a bit more inflammatory than necessary to get that point across, friend.


I do not get BAF or other cam site affiliate income from ACF whatsoever for years now. Back in the early years, I made a few BAF tokens that were sent to other models. I've turned down many sponsor requests to keep ACF clear of banners and ads. I've made precisely $67 over the last couple months from people buying ACF owl gear, but that's all. So yes, this is me running this for you all in my off-cam time, models and members alike. As you note yes my name gets exposure for being at the top of this site, but that can also be a really big responsibility and burden, as we address here with this whole subject, for example.


When I first put this up, yes it was only MFC.

In the past we have dealt with some very persistent trolls whom I have NO doubt would have gone to lengths to get verified on CB to have access to the MO section. Many people here don't know the behind the scenes effort that has gone into dealing with these individuals.

So to wrap this up so I can get to work, I understand and hear everyone's concerns. Clearly I've been defensive of my reasons for doing things how I do because this is NOT my job and it can feel like an attack, or people being entitled or unappreciative, when people go dictating how things should run here at ACF. If you could avoid posting inflammatory remarks and judgey comments in this thread, I'd really be appreciative. I'm working on it. I'll need some assistance in the coming weeks to get things underway, and I'd rather do this in a friendly environment where I don't feel my character is under attack.

Thanks for reading.

Amber, I could cry. THANK YOU for taking time out of your camming schedule to do this, acknowledge all that has been said, etc.

 

[Deleted member 35180]

Also, I'm just going to leave this here in response to everyone who participated in this thread, cause it was the heated one I was referring to.

https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/on-logical-discourse-disagreeing.27201/

 

[Pluot]

Next I will say that discussion is fine and always encouraged, but comments like this:



only serve to insult the person who uses her personal private time to make this place run. It's really just vague name-calling. So if we could not say stuff like this, that would be appreciated. In the past I have welcomed others to create and run their own camming forum if they were unhappy being part of mine when some have assumed "it can't be that hard".

Anyway, It was never a personal bias. It should not need to be stated again, but I personally have NO issues with how people choose to identify themselves. Trying to use the fact that both my husband and I haven't had the personal time to make the necessary changes to the forum and policies as a indicator of my beliefs is pretty uncalled for and unnecessary.

Hi Amber, thanks so much for responding.
I'm really glad to see that you're working for the site to be more inclusive- that's great to hear!

I apologize if my comment made you feel attacked- it was not meant to be a personal judgement aimed directly at you, but I can definitely see how it came across that way. Like I said, this subject is something I am emotionally invested in. It's hard to see my friends be excluded, attacked, and bullied on a daily basis, and to realize that my cam community as well was excluding trans women was upsetting. I spoke based on emotions- and that can be messy. I appreciate all of the hard work you have put into/continue to put into this site, and I really respect the time you took to write your response to this. Thank you.

 

[mynameisbob84]

However, Jawbs and I have been brainstorming for a long long while on how to implement a change to the forum that made it more inclusive to everyone.

I'm choosing to infer from this that there's finally going to be a "Bob Only" section of the forum.

 

[Lexi Emerson]

I don't really have a strong feeling on the subject. But in my six+ years on MFC and ACF I can say that I've seen very little information move from the model only section to the general public not only on ACF but on MFC in general.

I genuinely don't want this to come off as rude but how would you know what is/isn't leaked from MO without actually knowing what goes in there? In my 2 1/2 years on ACF I have had things leak about myself multiple times and I know many other instances when something is said in MO and later on talked about with other parties. Basically my point was just that it already happens, it will happen in the future- male OR female.

Amber addressed the issue anyways, thanks for always being so cool and letting some good discussions go on.

 

[BraisleeAdams]

However, Jawbs and I have been brainstorming for a long long while on how to implement a change to the forum that made it more inclusive to everyone.

Will you be resetting the forums in the general MO sections? There are definitely post I'd be uncomfortable opening up to a larger audience.

 

[AmberCutie]

Will you be resetting the forums in the general MO sections? There are definitely post I'd be uncomfortable opening up to a larger audience.

This is why I'm having an in-between time from reorganizing the subforums and when new models will be approved into them. I'm hoping you ladies will help me identify which threads should be either archived (set invisible to future viewers, which makes them un-viewable to you too, but still accessible to me if we need it in the future) or moved to specific site subforums.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

This is why I'm having an in-between time from reorganizing the subforums and when new models will be approved into them. I'm hoping you ladies will help me identify which threads should be either archived (set invisible to future viewers, which makes them un-viewable to you too, but still accessible to me if we need it in the future) or moved to specific site subforums.

Reorganizing 7 years of posts. You're going to need to stock up on more wine Amber.


Buy A Barrel of Wine

 

[AmberCutie]

Reorganizing 7 years of posts. You're going to need to stock up on more wine Amber.

It's going to take some hefty brain power figuring out how to deal.

People have been asking for this for a few years now. I'm not sure they realize that means that ALL new models will have access to many areas that were once thought to be completely girlygirl eyes only. I'm also not sure that many realize that allowing EVERYONE means camguys are gonna be in many sections too. I was asked to be more inclusive... this is as inclusive as it gets. With no in-between guess work.

That's why we have period of time before the new "everyone" approval process goes live where I'll have input on what should be moved where, if at all.

 

[Deleted member 35180]

@AmberCutie I'd really like to know your feelings on people pm'ing you about how things are run in the future. My thought was, if you have an opinion, don't bother the moderator cause she has a life/has probably already heard it. However it seems, as you said, that having your name on the site can be a blessing and a curse when things like this are going on. This conversation was great imo cause it seems a lot of people learned something/had to take a second glance at their approach and/or pov, but it seems the whole controversy of the thing public on your site could have been avoided if OP knew what you were ultimately going to end up saying/had messaged you first.

 

[ExcellaExe]

I'll start this post off by saying that I'm taking the night off of camming (my actual job, lol) during my rank megamonth to dive into the process of a new format for ACF. I think many folks feel like it's just the flip of a switch and your wishes are granted as far as how the forum is run. Yes, it's been a couple years since I said I may update the process, so my apologies for the delay. However, Jawbs and I have been brainstorming for a long long while on how to implement a change to the forum that made it more inclusive to everyone.

The ultimate move will be to make site specific subforums available to cam models who are approved and active on those cam sites. This way, folks who are actively camming on specific cam sites are approved for access to a private area for their cam site(s) to exchange chat with their "coworkers", regardless of how they identify. There will also be general areas where ALL approved cam models can convene regardless of site affiliation. The current "Additional Verification" thread will be restarted, and every cam model or couple will post there with a picture and links to their active cam site profiles. Any active cam model will be eligible for their applicable site section.

My hip surgery in early 2015 certainly set us back as we were focusing on my recovery, and making the most of my up-time to get my MFC schedule back on track. But now I'm back on my feet, and, since plans were in the works already and this subject comes to blinding light again in the last 2 days, I'll go ahead set some extra time aside to finalize the next/current step to get it underway right now instead of waiting until next month.

The first step toward this was moving to this forum software that would allow us to re-format permissions and subforums (done!).

The next step was identifying the path of least resistance as far as future verification and site organization goes. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, not every girl who has posted in the private section would be open to the idea of their Models Only posts being veiwed by a larger audience than what currently exists. Knowing this, I've already created a few site specific subforum categories to test out how that separation went.

Current step is putting up a dev forum so I can rearrange this thing to high-hell, move and archive some current content, and figure out the final format so that it isn't a jumbled mess when it goes live. I'll make as much progress on that as I can before I run out of gas tonight. Then final pushes will be done very soon.

Last step will be the new approval process, which will likely start in April to give all current ACF models time to help me reorganize previous threads in a comfortable way. (And so I can focus on my megamonth without a ton of extra sidetracking. )

As noted above, it isn't just an on/off switch.

Next I will say that discussion is fine and always encouraged, but comments like this:



only serve to insult the person who uses her personal private time to make this place run. It's really just vague name-calling. So if we could not say stuff like this, that would be appreciated. In the past I have welcomed others to create and run their own camming forum if they were unhappy being part of mine when some have assumed "it can't be that hard".

Anyway, It was never a personal bias. It should not need to be stated again, but I personally have NO issues with how people choose to identify themselves. Trying to use the fact that both my husband and I haven't had the personal time to make the necessary changes to the forum and policies as a indicator of my beliefs is pretty uncalled for and unnecessary.

And seriously...


The ultimate reason that ACF hasn't been updated IS because I was afraid of the approval process being a judgment call that could create a huge mess or cause backlash, and additionally not having time to dedicate to implementing propery changes to the format... can you just not? The words used in your post are a bit more inflammatory than necessary to get that point across, friend.


I do not get BAF or other cam site affiliate income from ACF whatsoever for years now. Back in the early years, I made a few BAF tokens that were sent to other models. I've turned down many sponsor requests to keep ACF clear of banners and ads. I've made precisely $67 over the last couple months from people buying ACF owl gear, but that's all. So yes, this is me running this for you all in my off-cam time, models and members alike. As you note yes my name gets exposure for being at the top of this site, but that can also be a really big responsibility and burden, as we address here with this whole subject, for example.


When I first put this up, yes it was only MFC.

In the past we have dealt with some very persistent trolls whom I have NO doubt would have gone to lengths to get verified on CB to have access to the MO section. Many people here don't know the behind the scenes effort that has gone into dealing with these individuals.

So to wrap this up so I can get to work, I understand and hear everyone's concerns. Clearly I've been defensive of my reasons for doing things how I do because this is NOT my job and it can feel like an attack, or people being entitled or unappreciative, when people go dictating how things should run here at ACF. If you could avoid posting inflammatory remarks and judgey comments in this thread, I'd really be appreciative. I'm working on it. I'll need some assistance in the coming weeks to get things underway, and I'd rather do this in a friendly environment where I don't feel my character is under attack.

Thanks for reading.

Thank for taking time to address this! I know your schedule during your megamonths is crazy. I completely understand how much effort this will take, trust me, and I really, really appreciate that you and Jawbs are going to undertake this for the community. You're awesome.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Why can't we include trans women into a space for women? Trans women ARE women. Genitals don't define gender.

I agree about the genitals thing. but what is a woman? (I would lerrrrrv to talk about this in PM or in the appropriate subforum/thread, I've never met anyone who could give me an honest answer, because I don't want to go an basically look like an outsider and a troll by approaching some forum specifically for people of that particular philosophical belief)
for all I know I'm a trans woman, too.
I know whether or not I have ADHD or depression because there's a spectrum and checklist. how do I go about finding out whether or not I'm a man? I only know I'm male so far.

a space for women?

what I don't get is why they don't just dig into the code and rename it a woman's space instead of a model's space. there are a lot of things that as a model I can't say out here in the public arena. but I guess I need to find a guy's version of this kinda website, this wasn't made for us, and that's perfectly legitimate. you shouldn't have to change what you do to cater for people it wasn't intended for.

 

[Rose]

My two cents: I'm all for inclusion. Totally! Help all the cam sluts! Keep bathrooms safe private spaces for everyone to safely go potty!

BUT I have a few threads in the models only section specifically related to pregnancy and severe gynecological health problems that I would be extremely uncomfortable with sharing with an audience beyond those born female because of the gory details shared there. The problems that I created those threads about are problems that literally only cis-females can experience, no other way around it. There are also several other threads in the models only section with similar topics started by other camgirls. I can imagine what an uncomfortable spot this puts @AmberCutie in.

Amber's already created public sections for things like male cam models, threads on streamate, threads on clips4sale, etc. Since the change for inclusion will, presumably and understandably, take a long while and involve lots of messy business of admin-ing, I think it would be in the best interest of progress and inclusion to continue to use/start using those public threads. They were initially created after the last discussion about inclusion to begin breaching that closed door and they have some quite valuable information on the websites mentioned. If you're worried about inclusion, your best option (for now, for immediate effect) is to post in those threads frequently or with offers for those reading to contact you so that those reading know you are open and available.

Quick grab of relevant links for inclusive threads:
https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/welcome-new-acfers-advice-for-getting-started.26758/

https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/the-cam-guy-thread-male-model-stuff.19855/

https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/lighting-tips-tricks-links-etc.19567/

https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/clips4sale-top-categories.19538/

https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/got-a-clips4sale-question-post-it-here.17890/

https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/the-iwantclips-thread.22295/

https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/streamate-sm-questions-and-info.5367/

 

[THE MOLLIE MARIE]

for all I know I'm a trans woman, too.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that precludes you. A trans woman is a woman and would likely call herself a woman without uncertainty, don't you think?

And thanks, Amber! Your efforts here on the forum as a whole are appreciated.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that precludes you. A trans woman is a woman and would likely call herself a woman without uncertainty, don't you think?

then it also precludes me from being a man (I only know what the prejudices of my culture say a man is, I don't know what the more progressive fluid non-biologically non-culturally determined perspective regards one as - I can only say I'm a man if I say a transwoman is a man, I'm employing the unambiguous terms of a culture I don't agree with, and without them I don't presently have a way to understand what taxonomy fits either of us). which means I should identify as what? since I'm neither...? I generally say I'm a gender nihilist, but I don't know if there's a proper term the community use.

 

[THE MOLLIE MARIE]

then it also precludes me from being a man (I only know what the prejudices of my culture say a man is, I don't know what the more progressive fluid non-biologically non-culturally determined perspective regards one as - I can only say I'm a man if I say a transwoman is a man, I'm employing the unambiguous terms of a culture I don't agree with, and without them I don't presently have a way to understand what taxonomy fits either of us). which means I should identify as what? since I'm neither...? I generally say I'm a gender nihilist, but I don't know if there's a proper term the community use.

Again, that's a personal thing. Which is what I stated in my first reply, a trans woman would call herself a woman. I am not going to police what you want to use to describe your identity, that's up to you. I don't know how this fits into the previous discussion, which was not about the boundaries or terminology surrounding the gender spectrum, but about how this particular space is run based on the stated rules.

 

[AmberCutie]

@AmberCutie I'd really like to know your feelings on people pm'ing you about how things are run in the future. My thought was, if you have an opinion, don't bother the moderator cause she has a life/has probably already heard it. However it seems, as you said, that having your name on the site can be a blessing and a curse when things like this are going on. This conversation was great imo cause it seems a lot of people learned something/had to take a second glance at their approach and/or pov, but it seems the whole controversy of the thing public on your site could have been avoided if OP knew what you were ultimately going to end up saying/had messaged you first.

I've been noting for years now that I was working on reorganizing the forum. A simple search or a look at posts linked in the "how to get model approval" thread would have showed people what was up.

As far as suggestions about how things are run, as has been noted I personally run this and it's not necessarily a democracy. I ask for opinions on things in threads when I need them.

 

[AmberCutie]

BUT I have a few threads in the models only section specifically related to pregnancy and severe gynecological health problems that I would be extremely uncomfortable with sharing with an audience beyond those born female because of the gory details shared there. The problems that I created those threads about are problems that literally only cis-females can experience, no other way around it.

This was a HUGE reason why I knew this undertaking would be time consuming. We've been up for 7 years now, and for that long, MANY people have posted assuming the MO area was regulated a certain way.

 

[Issa]

This was a HUGE reason why I knew this undertaking would be time consuming. We've been up for 7 years now, and for that long, MANY people have posted assuming the MO area was regulated a certain way.

Yeah, and to piggy back on that, this is the reason I find it problematic to move any content over to a new forum under new membership rules. I've always posted in MO assuming it is and forever will be female eyes only. I think I speak for many when I say that I'm deeply uncomfortable with any of my posts being moved over just because it's difficult to remember what all has been said and editing posts isn't really an option.

I have no personal issue whatsoever with trans models being included. Purely from a business standpoint, I think trans-women have a lot in common with cis-women in the camming industry, and that they can contribute new perspectives and help to many topics. They also deserve safe spaces (i.e. verified) to post in. I feel the same for male models. To be fair, I started on StripperWeb, which was a semi-public camming forum that allowed full inclusion for trans ladies from day one. I've always known the potential audience for my posts.

All that said, I would still hope for a Female Only and Male Only division between some verified sections. Many models here don't post to the public sections because they wish to be free from male eyes.

Conclusion: I'd be much more comfortable with a total clean slate and the current MO sections being archived for viewership only by previously approved models. That way, whatever the new set up, every member can move forward knowing exactly what information is accessible to who.

 

[AmberCutie]

Yeah, and to piggy back on that, this is the reason I find it problematic to move any content over to a new forum under new membership rules. I've always posted in MO assuming it is and forever will be female eyes only. I think I speak for many when I say that I'm deeply uncomfortable with any of my posts being moved over just because it's difficult to remember what all has been said and editing posts isn't really an option.

I have no personal issue whatsoever with trans models being included. Purely from a business standpoint, I think trans-women have a lot in common with cis-women in the camming industry, and that they can contribute new perspectives and help to many topics. They also deserve safe spaces (i.e. verified) to post in. I feel the same for male models. To be fair, I started on StripperWeb, which was a semi-public camming forum that allowed full inclusion for trans ladies from day one. I've always known the potential audience for my posts.

All that said, I would still hope for a Female Only and Male Only division between some verified sections. Many models here don't post to the public sections because they wish to be free from male eyes.

Conclusion: I'd be much more comfortable with a total clean slate and the current MO sections being archived for viewership only by previously approved models. That way, whatever the new set up, every member can move forward knowing exactly what information is accessible to who.

I feel like a huge majority of the verified models on ACF feel the same as you. Hence my hesitance to jump right into it, and taking so long to try to find a hard solution. I hate to say I feel like I am disrupting a large crowd to appease a smaller crowd, but in the end I it's something that has to be done for the changing modern times.

Stripperweb is much different than ACF in that ALL model posts are publicly viewable. I know they have a verified cam girl group but there's like, what, 20 girls in that? A different feel than the hundreds we've had active at any given time here. So I am sorry if anyone feels that dynamic is changing. We will still have a lot of the same aspects in the revised models only areas, I promise. Just a little adjustment will be necessary.

It's a consideration to simply move every MO post to an archive, and only repost certain super-helpful posts over anonymously to their coordinating cam site subforums. I'm not completely confirmed on that process, I'll ask for more input soon.

As far as completely female-only areas, the MyFreeCams subforum would technically be the only space for that.

 

[Guy]

BUT I have a few threads in the models only section specifically related to pregnancy and severe gynecological health problems that I would be extremely uncomfortable with sharing with an audience beyond those born female because of the gory details shared there. The problems that I created those threads about are problems that literally only cis-females can experience, no other way around it. There are also several other threads in the models only section with similar topics started by other camgirls. I can imagine what an uncomfortable spot this puts @AmberCutie in.

I always assumed that MO was for posts that potentially contianed
personally identifiable information.