Western Culture VS Indigenous Culture

[RubyDimples]

At the moment I'm taking a course on Multiculturalism and was wondering peoples feelings towards the two. Western Culture is saturated with selfishness, greed and cut throat competition. Indigenous on the other hand tends to focus more so on community, harmony and togetherness. Anyone have opinions or thoughts?

 

[SpencerStorm]

What specifically are you asking...I understand the two concepts but what specifically are you trying to banter about?

 

[RubyDimples]

Just general thoughts or opinions about the two.

 

[zippypinhead]

We have this tendency to romanticize the things that we aren't. "Indigenous" cultures are not homogenous, just as "Western" cultures are not wholly homogenous. Indigenous cultures have just as much capacity to commit, and in fact have committed the same sorts of sins that Western cultures have been guilty of. It isn't all frou-frou, hippie, one-with-the-earth bullshit, and anyone who would teach it as such is conveniently glossing over the uglier facets that seem to be part of all human nature. We're all animals. We all have the ability to dehumanize and destroy the "other" due to greed, selfishness, and cut-throat competition, whether we live in third-world tribes or first-world cities.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Some indigenous tribes are so sad. Instead of using medicine they allow their kids to die by refusing proper treatment. Women are barely considered people in some. Not a fan of those that refuse science and help.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

We have this tendency to romanticize the things that we aren't. "Indigenous" cultures are not homogenous, just as "Western" cultures are not wholly homogenous. Indigenous cultures have just as much capacity to commit, and in fact have committed the same sorts of sins that Western cultures have been guilty of. It isn't all frou-frou, hippie, one-with-the-earth bullshit, and anyone who would teach it as such is conveniently glossing over the uglier facets that seem to be part of all human nature. We're all animals. We all have the ability to dehumanize and destroy the "other" due to greed, selfishness, and cut-throat competition, whether we live in third-world tribes or first-world cities.

Exactly.. I wouldn't characterize the three main indigenous central and south American culture Mayan, Inca, and especially the Aztec as being cooperative, unless you characterize ripping the heart out of your defeated opponents as being a harmonious event. I don't know a ton about Native American tribes, but the Apache, Comanche, Iroquois, and Sioux were all war-like long before the white man arrived and quickly adapted things like horse for use in warfare and as property . You could make decent case that Navajo and Pueblo Indians were fairly peaceful and might meet your professors definition.Similarly the indigenous Hawaiian culture, which I'm pretty familiar with was both extremely hierarchical and not all sharing. The concept of taboo (Kapu in Hawaiian) comes to us from Polynesia culture, and for the most part was designed to keep the good stuff (food, beaches etc) for the Ali (royalty).

Australia's Aboriginal probably fit your concept the best, but New Zealand Maori's far less so. Most Melanesian tribes of Papua New Guinea, Solomon Island and other island chains in the Southwest practiced practiced cannibalism, I'd ask your professor if indigenous cultures are so wonderful, how come cannibalism was practiced routinely in indigenous culture and was very rare in Western cultures?

 

[Red7227]

Some indigenous tribes are so sad. Instead of using medicine they allow their kids to die by refusing proper treatment. Women are barely considered people in some. Not a fan of those that refuse science and help.

True, but we are not talking about the Seventh Day Adventists and the Mormons :mrgreen:

 

[Red7227]

We have this tendency to romanticize the things that we aren't. "Indigenous" cultures are not homogenous, just as "Western" cultures are not wholly homogenous. Indigenous cultures have just as much capacity to commit, and in fact have committed the same sorts of sins that Western cultures have been guilty of. It isn't all frou-frou, hippie, one-with-the-earth bullshit, and anyone who would teach it as such is conveniently glossing over the uglier facets that seem to be part of all human nature. We're all animals. We all have the ability to dehumanize and destroy the "other" due to greed, selfishness, and cut-throat competition, whether we live in third-world tribes or first-world cities.

Exactly.. I wouldn't characterize the three main indigenous central and south American culture Mayan, Inca, and especially the Aztec as being cooperative, unless you characterize ripping the heart out of your defeated opponents as being a harmonious event. I don't know a ton about Native American tribes, but the Apache, Comanche, Iroquois, and Sioux were all war-like long before the white man arrived and quickly adapted things like horse for use in warfare and as property . You could make decent case that Navajo and Pueblo Indians were fairly peaceful and might meet your professors definition.Similarly the indigenous Hawaiian culture, which I'm pretty familiar with was both extremely hierarchical and not all sharing. The concept of taboo (Kapu in Hawaiian) comes to us from Polynesia culture, and for the most part was designed to keep the good stuff (food, beaches etc) for the Ali (royalty).

Australia's Aboriginal probably fit your concept the best, but New Zealand Maori's far less so. Most Melanesian tribes of Papua New Guinea, Solomon Island and other island chains in the Southwest practiced practiced cannibalism, I'd ask your professor if indigenous cultures are so wonderful, how come cannibalism was practiced routinely in indigenous culture and was very rare in Western cultures?

Yup, Western civilisations didn't invent war, they are just better at it. The Indians have the charming practice of Sati when the widow is thrown on the funeral pyre with the husband, its currently illegal but it still happens. The Arab influenced cultures like to slice off the external genitalia of girls around the age of 10 and circumcise boys around the same age, while the Australian Aborigines would give guests a wife to fuck and keep them warm.

Current western civilisation is the most egalitarian and humane society that has ever existed in the history of the earth.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Seventh Day Adventists

Had never heard of these people, funny stuff.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Current western civilisation is the most egalitarian and humane society that has ever existed in the history of the earth.

 

[camstory]

Quick thought - Our best chance as a species at survival on this earth is to move toward a life style much more like indigenous cultures than the one now of the western world. Two huge loses that have occurred in our move toward modern western culture is the disconnect from our fellow humans of other cultures, class, and social make up, and from the natural world.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Quick thought - Our best chance as a species at survival on this earth is to move toward a life style much more like indigenous cultures than the one now of the western world. Two huge loses that have occurred in our move toward modern western culture is the disconnect from our fellow humans of other cultures, class, and social make up, and from the natural world.

Really why? I mean subsistence agriculture which requires 70+% of the folks to farm. How is that such a good system?

Now, I'll grant that one of the problem of modern Western culture is a disconnect from nature. But one characteristic of indigenous culture is that quite literally have no or minimal contact with other classes, culture, or social makeup. When Christopher Columbus meet the Arwaks the only people they were in contact with were tribe from other island who were trying to take their island and capture slaves. Hardly a goal to aspire to. In large part due to the internet we have far more awareness, understanding and acceptance, of other cultures than anytime in history.

 

[camstory]

Quick thought - Our best chance as a species at survival on this earth is to move toward a life style much more like indigenous cultures than the one now of the western world. Two huge loses that have occurred in our move toward modern western culture is the disconnect from our fellow humans of other cultures, class, and social make up, and from the natural world.

Really why? I mean subsistence agriculture which requires 70+% of the folks to farm. How is that such a good system?

Now, I'll grant that one of the problem of modern Western culture is a disconnect from nature. But one characteristic of indigenous culture is that quite literally have no or minimal contact with other classes, culture, or social makeup. When Christopher Columbus meet the Arwaks the only people they were in contact with were tribe from other island who were trying to take their island and capture slaves. Hardly a goal to aspire to. In large part due to the internet we have far more awareness, understanding and acceptance, of other cultures than anytime in history.

Yes I understood that the disconnect with other ppls was wrong as I put it when I wrote it. I did not have a lot of time and should have waited to post.

Today we can live across town from a group of ppl and if we chose we can functionally isolate ourselves from those ppl. And it is OK to ignore the fringes of less fortunate ppl, of ppl with mental difficulties - hell we just jail them and they are out of sight. We pass laws about public camping, that are really just ways to keep the homeless out of sight, and out of mind, - they have nothing to do with camping! We gate off everywhere to keep any not like us out. Even at our YMCA's we have established different levels of membership, not allowing those lesser members access during certain times. Today in our world you are some sort of virtuous example of goodness if you pay any attention to the dregs of society. If you volunteer 1 day a month at a troubled youth community center, or a homeless resource center it's worthy of inclusion to your introduction at awards ceremony. And if you give a few hours every week, you are some sort of saint. Because it is OK to just live your life paying no attention to such things - when really IMO everybody should be doing something.

You are right indigenous ppl had no scope of ppl remote from them, and our understanding and knowledge of other ppl is world wide. The difference I had wanted to point out but failed to do so, was that indigenous ppl in general had a great respect for their fellow ppl's. They may have also had a great despise for their neighboring ppl's and even be making active war against them, but they did not ignore them. It is our lack of respect and attention to other ppl that was the disconnect I meant.

 

[Red7227]

Quick thought - Our best chance as a species at survival on this earth is to move toward a life style much more like indigenous cultures than the one now of the western world. Two huge loses that have occurred in our move toward modern western culture is the disconnect from our fellow humans of other cultures, class, and social make up, and from the natural world.

Really why? I mean subsistence agriculture which requires 70+% of the folks to farm. How is that such a good system?

Now, I'll grant that one of the problem of modern Western culture is a disconnect from nature. But one characteristic of indigenous culture is that quite literally have no or minimal contact with other classes, culture, or social makeup. When Christopher Columbus meet the Arwaks the only people they were in contact with were tribe from other island who were trying to take their island and capture slaves. Hardly a goal to aspire to. In large part due to the internet we have far more awareness, understanding and acceptance, of other cultures than anytime in history.

Yes I understood that the disconnect with other ppls was wrong as I put it when I wrote it. I did not have a lot of time and should have waited to post.

Today we can live across town from a group of ppl and if we chose we can functionally isolate ourselves from those ppl. And it is OK to ignore the fringes of less fortunate ppl, of ppl with mental difficulties - hell we just jail them and they are out of sight. We pass laws about public camping, that are really just ways to keep the homeless out of sight, and out of mind, - they have nothing to do with camping! We gate off everywhere to keep any not like us out. Even at our YMCA's we have established different levels of membership, not allowing those lesser members access during certain times. Today in our world you are some sort of virtuous example of goodness if you pay any attention to the dregs of society. If you volunteer 1 day a month at a troubled youth community center, or a homeless resource center it's worthy of inclusion to your introduction at awards ceremony. And if you give a few hours every week, you are some sort of saint. Because it is OK to just live your life paying no attention to such things - when really IMO everybody should be doing something.

You are right indigenous ppl had no scope of ppl remote from them, and our understanding and knowledge of other ppl is world wide. The difference I had wanted to point out but failed to do so, was that indigenous ppl in general had a great respect for their fellow ppl's. They may have also had a great despise for their neighboring ppl's and even be making active war against them, but they did not ignore them. It is our lack of respect and attention to other ppl that was the disconnect I meant.

That might be the case in the USA, but in most civilised countries its not. In Australia if you have a car accident and end up disabled, the government will award you a few million dollars to establish a lifestyle. Its less clear cut with other accidents, but its usually the way it works. We have laws to prevent discrimination, and bigots get very little attention here. There are still homeless and disenfranchised but its actually hard work to end up homeless as we have a very effective welfare state. As for other cultures, we see them everywhere and have for decades. It usually takes a couple generations for new immigrant cultures to become assimilated, and people who are offended by such things are a true minority. Australia is certainly nothing exceptional, most of Europe and the UK take even better care of their populations.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

The Arab influenced cultures like to slice off the external genitalia of girls around the age of 10 and circumcise boys around the same age, while the Australian Aborigines would give guests a wife to fuck and keep them warm.

Australian Aborigines were the worst of the lot for circumcision practices. Here's one tribe's method.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/unambal/circumcision_initiation.php

A very important event in the life of a young male Aborigine is the initiation ceremony which makes him an adult man, and is performed at the first signs of puberty. These initiation ceremonies consist of circumcision and the incision of scars on his chest, shoulders, arms and buttocks. The wounds are filled with sand in order to produce larger scars. In the case of a young girl the initiation ceremony happens at the onset of the first menstruation, when scars are incised on their buttocks. She is then deflowered by members of her own marriage class, after which she can cohabit with all young men who are classed as possible husbands.

For the young man Circumcision is followed by Subincision when his beard starts to grow. The young man is seated on rock while his penis is split open with a stone knife along its full length on the underside. The penis once split open is pressed flat against the rock on which the young man is sitting. The Aborigines explained that this is done in order to make it "lighter and more beautiful".

A red blossom is placed in the wound because the penis is to be as red as possible on the inside. After the young man has been initiated in this way he is allowed to make stone spearheads. The Wandjina cast the first bolt of lightning by splitting open his penis and in this way was able to discharge fire and lightning from it. The Wandjina created fire by turning the red inside of his split penis outwards so that fire could come out. The Wandjina can direct lightning by taking his penis in his hand and with his club show the lightning the direction it is to take.

In this way he can strike his enemies with lightning or shatter trees to get firewood for himself. I have often observed the aborigines in thunderstorms trying to follow the Wandjina's example of directing flashes of lightning, and no amount of failure was able to shake their belief. The aborigines decorate their Spearthrowers with a yellow serpent to represent lightning.

 

[Red7227]

The Arab influenced cultures like to slice off the external genitalia of girls around the age of 10 and circumcise boys around the same age, while the Australian Aborigines would give guests a wife to fuck and keep them warm.

Australian Aborigines were the worst of the lot for circumcision practices. Here's one tribe's method.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/unambal/circumcision_initiation.php

Yup, none of that is going to hurt or risk infection. The upside for boys is that they get to root anything that moves, which i think most 16 year old male might actually be OK with :-D Still sucks to be a girl of course, but that is standard across most non horse nomad cultures.

 

[camstory]

Quick thought - Our best chance as a species at survival on this earth is to move toward a life style much more like indigenous cultures than the one now of the western world. Two huge loses that have occurred in our move toward modern western culture is the disconnect from our fellow humans of other cultures, class, and social make up, and from the natural world.

Really why? I mean subsistence agriculture which requires 70+% of the folks to farm. How is that such a good system?

Now, I'll grant that one of the problem of modern Western culture is a disconnect from nature. But one characteristic of indigenous culture is that quite literally have no or minimal contact with other classes, culture, or social makeup. When Christopher Columbus meet the Arwaks the only people they were in contact with were tribe from other island who were trying to take their island and capture slaves. Hardly a goal to aspire to. In large part due to the internet we have far more awareness, understanding and acceptance, of other cultures than anytime in history.

Yes I understood that the disconnect with other ppls was wrong as I put it when I wrote it. I did not have a lot of time and should have waited to post.

Today we can live across town from a group of ppl and if we chose we can functionally isolate ourselves from those ppl. And it is OK to ignore the fringes of less fortunate ppl, of ppl with mental difficulties - hell we just jail them and they are out of sight. We pass laws about public camping, that are really just ways to keep the homeless out of sight, and out of mind, - they have nothing to do with camping! We gate off everywhere to keep any not like us out. Even at our YMCA's we have established different levels of membership, not allowing those lesser members access during certain times. Today in our world you are some sort of virtuous example of goodness if you pay any attention to the dregs of society. If you volunteer 1 day a month at a troubled youth community center, or a homeless resource center it's worthy of inclusion to your introduction at awards ceremony. And if you give a few hours every week, you are some sort of saint. Because it is OK to just live your life paying no attention to such things - when really IMO everybody should be doing something.

You are right indigenous ppl had no scope of ppl remote from them, and our understanding and knowledge of other ppl is world wide. The difference I had wanted to point out but failed to do so, was that indigenous ppl in general had a great respect for their fellow ppl's. They may have also had a great despise for their neighboring ppl's and even be making active war against them, but they did not ignore them. It is our lack of respect and attention to other ppl that was the disconnect I meant.

That might be the case in the USA, but in most civilised countries its not. In Australia if you have a car accident and end up disabled, the government will award you a few million dollars to establish a lifestyle. Its less clear cut with other accidents, but its usually the way it works. We have laws to prevent discrimination, and bigots get very little attention here. There are still homeless and disenfranchised but its actually hard work to end up homeless as we have a very effective welfare state. As for other cultures, we see them everywhere and have for decades. It usually takes a couple generations for new immigrant cultures to become assimilated, and people who are offended by such things are a true minority. Australia is certainly nothing exceptional, most of Europe and the UK take even better care of their populations.

I believe you are right. I was talking about the only western culture I know with any breath, the U.S. Though we too have a pretty good welfare system, lots are left behind. Unfortunately the exposure of awful, abusive systemic mental health care in the 70's resulted in wholesale closures and not reform. The huge rise in the homeless population and ppl being jailed for such things as drunk in public, trespassing, disturbing the peace, etc, that resulted in the 80's was greatly due to these closures.

But I don't wish to get too far off topic. I just feel in general - in the US - that we do not have a strong sense of connectedness. That is, - I think the attitude is much more of one where we figure gov or charity will fix the broken so they are not our concern. We don't have any sense of what is bad for our fellow man is also bad for us in the long run.

 

[eyeteach]

At the moment I'm taking a course on Multiculturalism and was wondering peoples feelings towards the two. Western Culture is saturated with selfishness, greed and cut throat competition. Indigenous on the other hand tends to focus more so on community, harmony and togetherness. Anyone have opinions or thoughts?

Sources please.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

At the moment I'm taking a course on Multiculturalism and was wondering peoples feelings towards the two. Western Culture is saturated with selfishness, greed and cut throat competition. Indigenous on the other hand tends to focus more so on community, harmony and togetherness. Anyone have opinions or thoughts?

Sources please.

My first thought was i'd try to get that teacher fired for being that naive.

 

[Sevrin]

The grass is always greener, and all. There are young westerners adopting Islam and joining terrorist groups in response to the perceived emptiness of Western culture. I mean, it is empty, but so's Islam, FFS. It's easy to be seduced by romantic notions of "noble savages" gazing over herds of wild buffaloes, but it's all the same shit.

 

[camstory]

I have been trying to articulate my thoughts on why I feel our best bet is to move toward a life style of the indigenous ppls. And life style is not exactly what I want to suggest, but more of finding a mindset that will allow us to find our Independence again. I will work on it. Until I find my voice anyone interested in hearing it much better than I could, you should take the time to watch this.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I believe you are right. I was talking about the only western culture I know with any breath, the U.S. Though we too have a pretty good welfare system, lots are left behind. Unfortunately the exposure of awful, abusive systemic mental health care in the 70's resulted in wholesale closures and not reform. The huge rise in the homeless population and ppl being jailed for such things as drunk in public, trespassing, disturbing the peace, etc, that resulted in the 80's was greatly due to these closures.

But I don't wish to get too far off topic. I just feel in general - in the US - that we do not have a strong sense of connectedness. That is, - I think the attitude is much more of one where we figure gov or charity will fix the broken so they are not our concern. We don't have any sense of what is bad for our fellow man is also bad for us in the long run.

Ok fair enough and I generally agree there is a lack of connectedness in our culture. My only comment with respect this topic, is indigenous culture are so widely varied that it is pretty much impossible to hold them up as role model. Many possibly even most indigenous culture, dealt with the disabled, old, and mentally ill, by either killing them at birth or casting them out of society where presumably died quickly. An effective but not exactly humane solution.

I watched the CNN 60s documentary on the Hippie culture (Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll) recently. It sort of sounds like you are advocating a return to the hippie culture perhaps?

 

[Red7227]

Ok fair enough and I generally agree there is a lack of connectedness in our culture. My only comment with respect this topic, is indigenous culture are so widely varied that it is pretty much impossible to hold them up as role model. Many possibly even most indigenous culture, dealt with the disabled, old, and mentally ill, by either killing them at birth or casting them out of society where presumably died quickly. An effective but not exactly humane solution.

Subsistence cultures do not have the means to support people with disabilities. The old are usually respected and kept around for their knowledge, in the absence of written records. There are 50,000 year old sites where we have evidence of older people in their 50s and 60s with sometimes crippling injuries who continued to be looked after by the group. Brutal initiation ceremonies were one way of keeping the unfit as children. It would be a logical extension to kill babies with infirmities to avoid the burden of raising them.

 

[camstory]

I watched the CNN 60s documentary on the Hippie culture (Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll) recently. It sort of sounds like you are advocating a return to the hippie culture perhaps?

No, is the simple answer.

That is not to say that I think the culture we find ourselves in today is any better! (BTW I was not aware of "The Sixties" the CNN special that I will check out, thanks.)

I do believe there were many good ideas/movements that came to light in the sixties that lost momentum and were quashed by the ills the sixties became.

“We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing-oriented" society to a "person-oriented" society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered.” Martin Luther King Jr.

The above quote very much expresses concerns I have. I think there has been considerable progress made on the race front, but I would argue we have gone backwards on materialism, and militarism.

The 3 tags I most identify with have more or less been vilified in recent years. Liberal, Socialist, Hippie, are all part of how I would describe myself. Hippie is prolly the least easy to define, and I think my description is not like that of many who would put it down.

The recent mass of ppl who wish to berate the idea of socialism is so appalling it is almost comical. When the right started denouncing Obama for being a socialist I really wished he had embraced that definition, but of course he is no socialist. The popular notion that socialist ideas are inherently wrong or evil in some way is what has allowed, at least in part, our capitalist culture to become so huge that it threatens to swallow our personal liberties, and has left us to a great extent slaves to the western/US god $. In a nation with such a great disparity of wealth - in a nation in which lobbyist and campaign contributions have so much influence in the government - we have lost much of our independence. "We The People" have taken the back seat to the capitalist powers for the control of our future.

I don't wish to vilify, or suggest the ideas of capitalism are inherently evil, but the fact is that the engine of capitalism is run on profit of wealth - the exchange of goods at a profit in wealth. When such a system is allowed to become too large, too overpowering, it bares greed it's fruit.

To tie this to topic, I would like to suggest that in many ways indigenous cultures were less greed driven, and influenced by material wealth than the one we live in today. That is not to suggest they fit well into socialist framework either, or that there was any great degree of equality in all aspects. But the idea that modern western/US culture is one inhabited to a greater extent by greed and material wealth, and is less concerned with the community at whole than most indigenous cultures, is neither naive, or incorrect. And yea, that's just my opinion man.

Edit: And yes I realize I have used "culture" in places where "society" is prolly the right word, but I understand the difference better than many understand socialism I think.

 

[Sevrin]

All that stuff sounds fine, when you don't have 7 billion mouths to feed, and most people living in urban areas. Truth is, communistic economies fail after a while because we are at our most productive and creative when there is incentive for the individual to excel and that incentive is individual reward. It's just how we function.

 

[RubyDimples]

Wow, what great responses!

I'm still learning about culture and doing so through my Multiculturalism course.
I'm like a sponge and love to learn about things I don't understand.
Expanding my knowledge is incredibly important for me.

Keep the conversation going tehe :-D

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Excellent response camstory. I guess having gone to school at Berkeley in the late 70s ( the hippie movement was alive there) and fascinated by the 60s since I was kid my enthusiasm for most of these schemes is tempered by the reality how badly they fail in the real world.

We do have a very different perspective. I think capitalism is the greatest positive force in human history and greed is good. My concern is helping the Chinese farm family I meet. I guess there is some romantic appeal to them living off the grid, and shitting in buckets and then using that as fertilizer. But to me it seems like hard, smelly, and extremely unsanitary work. The family was soon moving into a modern house (in no small part, cause the tour operator was paying them to talk to us tourists). I ask the 20 year old son what he was most looking forward to, he told me running water and indoor toilet. So for me seeing hundreds of million Chinese, Indian and Brazilian peasants get indoor plumbing is a huge deal and direct benefit of global capitalism It is important enough that I don't give a shit how big Larry Ellison yacht is or how many billions Jack Ma is worth after the Alibaba IPO. The rising tide does in fact lift all boats, and the fact that American middle class hasn't benefit much in the last 20 years, is really a function that we were all born in the hill by comparison to the rest of the world. What matters to me are two things the prosperity of the poorest,and wealth of the median person. When Bill Gates says that there will only a be handful of poor countries by 2035 that is pretty remarkable testimony to capitalism. In less than 50 years capitalism will have succeeded where thousands of years of others systems have failed.

It struck me that Chinese people were both the most materialistic people I've meet in my life, and also very entrepreneurial. On the other hand most American have had indoor plumbing for 2 or 3 generations, and we've always enjoyed a choice of clothing beyond a Mao jacket. It very well may take them several generations to be as jaded as we are.

I should add I am not a believer in Ayn Rand orLaissez-faire capitalism. We do agree that crony capitalism is a real problem in the US and even a worse one in places like Russia, and China.

Red said this "Subsistence cultures do not have the means to support people with disabilities". Exactly and that to me is the greatest knock against indigenous cultures. If you struggling for survival so much that you can't even keep the infirmed and disabled alive, how truly people oriented is your culture?

Still it has been good thread.. . I do recommend this book The Birth of Plenty: How the Prosperity of the Modern World was Created

 

[camstory]

It's interesting you spent the late seventies in Berkeley - I did as well. I grew up in the east bay, and had a close friend during high school who lived a few blocks off Telegraph, between Telegraph and College. I currently have a friend who lives in Emeryville. His father is a regular vendor weekends on Telegraph, selling Batik dyed garments. He also holds the distinction of having the third longest dreads ever recorded. (Jenei ((my friend) says it can be pretty funny when his dad drops one of his dreads moving from the front room to go to bed, and it gets caught on a piece of furniture or under a door, and he jerks to a stop head first. LMAO) The hippie culture is still pretty active in Berkeley. I digress (Does that work when one starts off, off topic?)

I don't know exactly how to make my point in favor of a Marxist philosophy, or even if that is what I want to do. I am not well enough educated in economics, socialism, or capitalism, to make a good argument.

There are two things I wish to question. 1: The assertion that communistic society lacks the incentive (personal reward) to foster creativity.

Though there has never been a society that was 100% true to the Marxist philosophy, the USSR under Lenin was very close. That period, though marked by many problems, also saw a good deal of creative progress in nearly all walks of life from the sciences, to the arts, and in regards to equality of life. The latter being something that grew more divisive during the same period in much of the western world that was then embracing the capitalist structure.

2: That greed is a positive force in the world.

One might easily argue that the fortune of Bill Gates was amassed by the hands of greed in part, and I would not debate that. But, is it not the selflessness of Bill and Melinda Gates, Warren Buffett, and others who have created the largest private philanthropic organizations in history? It is the altruistic efforts by these ppl that has made the dream of an end to world poverty a foreseeable reality, not greed.

Greed is the force that motivates ppl like the Koch brothers who fight against everything that would work to even the distribution of wealth, and provide the world answers to world poverty. It is greed that has focused the single sightedness of huge world corporate interest to see the gains of shareholder as the only goal, blinded to all else. It is this same greed that has rebuffed ppl like Gates and Buffett when they sought to increase the taxation of the mega rich.

I like to think I do not know anything for certain, and am open to learn that there are things which I thought I knew, that were incorrect, or less than 100% true, but I fail to see how greed works as a positive force in a world of 7+ billion ppl in which we must find a way to share the wealth.

Bottom line, and this will sound profoundly idealistic, I think in some ways, some indigestion cultures, had a greater respect for love. I think the modern societies that we now find ourselves in are lacking love in many aspects - A love of the world we share with all other living things, including, but not most important, love of our fellow man.

An idealistic personal mission statement, but one I stand by.​

 

[schlmoe]

some indigestion cultures, had a greater respect for love.

Many centuries from now, history will record that most of the indigestion cultures were not wiped out by greed, but by Pepto-Bismol :mrgreen:

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

some indigestion cultures, had a greater respect for love.

Many centuries from now, history will record that most of the indigestion cultures were not wiped out by greed, but by Pepto-Bismol :mrgreen:

I wouldn't dare make fun of a typo since it's a rare paragraph I don't make one. Still that was pretty goddamn funny. :mrgreen: