Poll: if you could get rid of stigma, would you?

[AmberCutie]

Sorry you guys didn't like my opinion

There is a distance between liking camgirls because it is "forbidden" and liking camgirls because you want to humiliate them and consider them, and I quote, "cumrags". I was objecting to your second point.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

I banned dudes who spoke to me this way even on a meat market site like Streamate. Still made plenty of money. Doesn't happen because of a stigma or because they like being naughty. Those dudes want to talk to all the women in their lives that way. You don't have to pander to them. They're not going to be the high spenders, and, even if they are, they're going to burn most of us out. If you enjoy being a cum rag, cool. But, you don't have to be to make money in this industry. That's part of the stigma, and part of how the rest of us would benefit without it. I don't want to be lumped in with who you are as a camgirl. Many members don't want to be lumped in with the way you're generalizing men.

I know some people really get off on treating others like a lesser person, or objectifying another. I'm not sure if it's their thought they can get away with it online, or if they really do talk that way in person to women? But, I can never understand the desire to do so and can't bring myself to do it. It just seem s like many look at sex workers as being some kind shitting ground for them to use and abuse. I get some models cater to it. But, thankfuly, it's relatively rare to see in the rooms I go to.

 

[JickyJuly]

I know some people really get off on treating others like a lesser person, or objectifying another. I'm not sure if it's their thought they can get away with it online, or if they really do talk that way in person to women? But, I can never understand the desire to do so and can't bring myself to do it. It just seem s like many look at sex workers as being some kind shitting ground for them to use and abuse. I get some models cater to it. But, thankfuly, it's relatively rare to see in the rooms I go to.

It seems like the men who pay to be humiliated are (now I'm generalizing, noted) successful in their professional lives. I swear 90% of the subs I've had who've divulged their occupation have been lawyers. On the flip side of that, my guess is that men who look to humiliate, paying or not, are probably not as conventionally successful? If the money was in allowing ourselves to be treated as horribly as possible, I doubt there'd be as many camgirls as there are. There'd be way less dommes, and the girls on the lower pages looking desperate would have full rooms.

 

[charleigh_]

Of course these guys get banned. You're overlooking my point but it's cool.

I have apps and bots that are custom-designed to filter certain things I don't alow. We all ban based on what we won't tolerate.

I'm out of this thread, though. Old enough and experienced enough to know that some things aren't worth arguing about on the internet.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

It seems like the men who pay to be humiliated are (now I'm generalizing, noted) successful in their professional lives. I swear 90% of the subs I've had who've divulged their occupation have been lawyers. On the flip side of that, my guess is that men who look to humiliate, paying or not, are probably not as conventionally successful? If the money was in allowing ourselves to be treated as horribly as possible, I doubt there'd be as many camgirls as there are. There'd be way less dommes, and the girls on the lower pages looking desperate would have full rooms.

I have to go with your experience, as well as what other models may share, for the humiliation aspect. Perhaps it's that the more successful ones are tired of having to be in control, and want to just give in to someone else. Or, perhaps a humility/humbleness aspect and how to keep themselves so? One may never know the inner workings of others.

While you did generalize, I do fit into the successful category, yet I find myself despising humiliation whether given or received. My parents would have tanned my ass had I of ever treated someone badly (verbally or physically) But, I do see your point from a general perspective and it may mirror some of human general behaviour in terms of demographics.

 

[JickyJuly]

Of course these guys get banned. You're overlooking my point but it's cool.

I have apps and bots that are custom-designed to filter certain things I don't alow. We all ban based on what we won't tolerate.

I'm out of this thread, though. Old enough and experienced enough to know that some things aren't worth arguing about on the internet.

No one's arguing. Just disagreeing and putting out alternative views. You're awfully defensive for someone who's cool with cumrag status.

 

[charleigh_]

No one's arguing. Just disagreeing and putting out alternative views. You're awfully defensive for someone who's cool with cumrag status.

I never said I was cool with it. I ban them all, which is why I'm left with a community of guys who respect me, my room, my boundaries. I taught them the right way to treat me.

What I am trying to say is that just because we ban the abusers it doesn't change their attitude or behavior and some of these people we ban for their degrading behavior towards us could very well be people in the position to end the stigma -- politicians first come to mind.

This is a huge rabbit hole and it's not as simple as "just stop calling us whores and let us have a non-SW career without stigma when we decide we're done camming". That's part of it, but the stigma exists because of centuries old beliefs that a woman in control of her own body and using it to make money is shameful to her and a blemish on the respect of the family.

You have to start pulling on that thread first before the rest will unravel. We live in a country where states are STILL trying to figure out ways to ban abortion, parenthood planning aids and other care where a woman makes the decision. If you think all of those things aren't tied together, pay attention to politics a little more (if you can stand to, it's pretty sickening out there).

(I'm not defensive, I'm passionate.)

There are some men who degrade women because another broke their heart. One of my highest tippers one night, in the middle of a show, suddenly got really snarky with me and threw a small fit. I was blindsided, we were dancing and having fun. The current goal cleared and I set the new goal for nekkidness. That's apparently all it took for him to tip me one last time saying, "sorry char, I guess too much baggage from other rooms, gonna take off".

I've always catered to him, I've always gone private when he wanted to, given him priority in chat and wham! Because some other girl on a different day took advantage of his generosity I was lumped together and summarily discarded. I haven't seen him since. In this particular case the stigma was 'gold digger'. Which I'm not. I set reasonable goals with flashes and such. I'm not asking for 10k in tokens a day and sometimes never get close to hitting it.

There are a lot of emotions and reasons tied into the stigmas.

The vast majority of the people I connect with are just guys looking to hang out with someone cool and get a little naughty. It doesn't change the underlying idea that we are there to serve as entertainment for them or why they came looking for us.

And that's fine, I am there to entertain and flirt and make them feel special. I'm not there to let them unload their mommy issues or ex-wife/girlfriend issues.

Lest we forget that before women were given the vote, we were property. That was 98 years ago. That's not much time. Did you know that in the 1960's women weren't even allowed to have their own credit cards? They had to be married, it was in his name, and the store would call the husband to make sure the wife wass allowed to make the purchase.

Porn gave us a shot to get out, at first. Then it turned into a seedy, drug den of physical, psychological, and mental abuse. Playboy did much to help bring erotica to the forefront with less shame and stigma, but Vanessa Williams still lost her crown.

There are reasons steeped in a lot of history, both accurate and made-up, that keep the stigma going strong.I could keep going but I need to go.

 

[JickyJuly]

I never said I was cool with it. I ban them all, which is why I'm left with a community of guys who respect me, my room, my boundaries. I taught them the right way to treat me.

What I am trying to say is that just because we ban the abusers it doesn't change their attitude or behavior and some of these people we ban for their degrading behavior towards us could very well be people in the position to end the stigma -- politicians first come to mind.

This is a huge rabbit hole and it's not as simple as "just stop calling us whores and let us have a non-SW career without stigma when we decide we're done camming". That's part of it, but the stigma exists because of centuries old beliefs that a woman in control of her own body and using it to make money is shameful to her and a blemish on the respect of the family.

You have to start pulling on that thread first before the rest will unravel. We live in a country where states are STILL trying to figure out ways to ban abortion, parenthood planning aids and other care where a woman makes the decision. If you think all of those things aren't tied together, pay attention to politics a little more (if you can stand to, it's pretty sickening out there).

(I'm not defensive, I'm passionate.)

There are some men who degrade women because another broke their heart. One of my highest tippers one night, in the middle of a show, suddenly got really snarky with me and threw a small fit. I was blindsided, we were dancing and having fun. The current goal cleared and I set the new goal for nekkidness. That's apparently all it took for him to tip me one last time saying, "sorry char, I guess too much baggage from other rooms, gonna take off".

I've always catered to him, I've always gone private when he wanted to, given him priority in chat and wham! Because some other girl on a different day took advantage of his generosity I was lumped together and summarily discarded. I haven't seen him since. In this particular case the stigma was 'gold digger'. Which I'm not. I set reasonable goals with flashes and such. I'm not asking for 10k in tokens a day and sometimes never get close to hitting it.

There are a lot of emotions and reasons tied into the stigmas.

The vast majority of the people I connect with are just guys looking to hang out with someone cool and get a little naughty. It doesn't change the underlying idea that we are there to serve as entertainment for them or why they came looking for us.

And that's fine, I am there to entertain and flirt and make them feel special. I'm not there to let them unload their mommy issues or ex-wife/girlfriend issues.

Lest we forget that before women were given the vote, we were property. That was 98 years ago. That's not much time. Did you know that in the 1960's women weren't even allowed to have their own credit cards? They had to be married, it was in his name, and the store would call the husband to make sure the wife wass allowed to make the purchase.

Porn gave us a shot to get out, at first. Then it turned into a seedy, drug den of physical, psychological, and mental abuse. Playboy did much to help bring erotica to the forefront with less shame and stigma, but Vanessa Williams still lost her crown.

There are reasons steeped in a lot of history, both accurate and made-up, that keep the stigma going strong.I could keep going but I need to go.

The initial question though was if you could push a button to end the stigma, would you. If we're changing the question to in order to rid sex work of stigma will you retrain grown men to see you as human (because their mommies, daddies and society have failed, somehow, to do so) my answer switches from yes to no. That's not my job. I don't have time for it, and there are enough decent, enjoyable, secure men on camsites to keep us in the money without pandering to the men who are so small. I also disagree with the idea that the stigma comes from many places. It's economic. You mentioned unmarried women being unable to have credit, gold diggers etc. That's all economic. Men who want to control women do not like seeing us be financially free. They want to believe we're all drug addled and desperate because thinking that we're just running our business makes them feel smaller and less necessary. Sex work is stigmatized for the same reason that women who date outside of their socioeconomic level, single mothers, successful but single women, and lesbians are stigmatized. Insecure men don't like seeing women who don't need for men. They can't live in a world where a woman has to want them instead of need them. Our society is already catering to and validating those men. They don't deserve special attention from sex workers in order to sway them to think differently, and, if they were bringing much to the table $ wise, they wouldn't be insecure.

 

[charleigh_]

The initial question though was if you could push a button to end the stigma, would you. If we're changing the question to in order to rid sex work of stigma will you retrain grown men to see you as human (because their mommies, daddies and society have failed, somehow, to do so) my answer switches from yes to no. That's not my job. I don't have time for it, and there are enough decent, enjoyable, secure men on camsites to keep us in the money without pandering to the men who are so small. I also disagree with the idea that the stigma comes from many places. It's economic. You mentioned unmarried women being unable to have credit, gold diggers etc. That's all economic. Men who want to control women do not like seeing us be financially free. They want to believe we're all drug addled and desperate because thinking that we're just running our business makes them feel smaller and less necessary. Sex work is stigmatized for the same reason that women who date outside of their socioeconomic level, single mothers, successful but single women, and lesbians are stigmatized. Insecure men don't like seeing women who don't need for men. They can't live in a world where a woman has to want them instead of need them. Our society is already catering to and validating those men. They don't deserve special attention from sex workers in order to sway them to think differently, and, if they were bringing much to the table $ wise, they wouldn't be insecure.

So, we do agree. If your church congregation knew you were camming you would be shunned or tried to be talked out of it. That's what I meant by many places. Some friends would shun you. Some men would take it as license to do you harm. Women also, primarily, have a huge problem with their husbands or boyfriends consuming porn and resent the women that provide it. Then there are those that don't care.

It's not black and white nor can camming be excluded from the industry. It's still sex work, whether you show a nipple every 4 days or take the bedpost in the pooper. For some people those two acts are equally as depraved as the other.

 

[Emberblaze]

*Or take the bedpost in the pooper*

Omg.
Crying laughing.

Hahahahahahaha!

 

[JickyJuly]

I don't spend time with anyone who would shun me. My interest in shedding the stigma with the push of a button revolves mostly around the fact that I'm a mother, and it is beneficial to society. I'm not sure what we're agreeing on or disagreeing on really? Obviously, the stigma exists. Everything you've just said is pretty well accepted. No one has disagreed with that. I'm disagreeing with you that the stigma is necessary for sex work to be exciting for those consuming or prosperous for those selling.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

It's not black and white nor can camming be excluded from the industry. It's still sex work, whether you show a nipple every 4 days or take the bedpost in the pooper. For some people those two acts are equally as depraved as the other.

I know some who are secondarily associated with sex work, such as @Dan Epstein from a supportive role perspective and they get shunned as well due to being tied to it somehow. Sad how sex has such a dual identity in the world Yet, it's okay for murder, abuse, rape, etc to the looked upon differently.

 

[RebelleHart]

*Or take the bedpost in the pooper*

Omg.
Crying laughing.

Hahahahahahaha!

OMG! I used to have a really pretty metal bed with posts and I'd get asked to fuck it all the time! I didn't even know this was a thing haha.

I'd always say the same thing, "Umm, I assembled this bed myself; there's no way I will risk death by IKEA for any amount of tokens."

The members were less concerned for my personal safety

 

[yummybrownfox]

*Or take the bedpost in the pooper*

Omg.
Crying laughing.

Hahahahahahaha!

I lmao at that too, because I know exactly what she's talking about. Lmao. WOWSERS!

 

[yummybrownfox]

Some men would take it as license to do you harm.

True. I remember in an episode of Law and Order Special Victims Unit (where some asshole was raping prostitutes), the perp flat out said to the detective "You can't rape a WHORE!" Ugh.

 

[caireen]

In this day and age, having a large gap in your resume isn't that big of deal. Fill in the gap with "Self-employed" and say you walked dogs for 8 years. Or that you had an in-home daycare or knitted sweaters for cats. They don't have the time nor the desire to dig that deeply into what your business was. You're not actually lying because you ARE self-employed.

Yup but it's a different skill set and won't help me into a career that i'm interested in. If I say "social media management" or something I would get asked to show examples of accounts I've managed. Sure I can make something up to fill in the gaps, but it does make a difference when looking for career jobs. If I was just trying to be a server or work in retail or something I wouldn't worry that much about it.
Edit: and many jobs DO have time or desire to dig into your previous work experience. It's silly to think that what you write on a resume or claim in a job interview doesn't matter.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Yup but it's a different skill set and won't help me into a career that i'm interested in. If I say "social media management" or something I would get asked to show examples of accounts I've managed. Sure I can make something up to fill in the gaps, but it does make a difference when looking for career jobs. If I was just trying to be a server or work in retail or something I wouldn't worry that much about it.
Edit: and many jobs DO have time or desire to dig into your previous work experience. It's silly to think that what you write on a resume or claim in a job interview doesn't matter.

I meet and work with a lot of entrepreneurs involved in startups. Good camgirls actually pick up a lot of transferable skills especially in the areas of marketing and sales, and social media that are valuable to employers especially small companies where the ability to do a lot of jobs is critical. However, the stigma associated with sex work makes communicating this a real challenge. It is hard to make a resume to accurately reflect what you've done. Folks like myself are going to be hesitant to make a recommendation, and of the hiring manager is taking a big risk hiring a sex worker into a professional job.

If somebody claims they've done XYZ on the internet there is 100% chance I'm going to spend some time googling to verify their claim.

 

[caireen]

I meet and work with a lot of entrepreneurs involved in startups. Good camgirls actually pick up a lot of transferable skills especially in the areas of marketing and sales, and social media that are valuable to employers especially small companies where the ability to do a lot of jobs is critical. However, the stigma associated with sex work makes communicating this a real challenge. It is hard to make a resume to accurately reflect what you've done. Folks like myself are going to be hesitant to make a recommendation, and of the hiring manager is taking a big risk hiring a sex worker into a professional job.

If somebody claims they've done XYZ on the internet there is 100% chance I'm going to spend some time googling to verify their claim.

And now with how popular LinkedIn- people's resumes literally contain links to their previous employers- it's way harder to stretch the truth or make false claims about past employment.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

And now with how popular LinkedIn- people's resumes literally contain links to their previous employers- it's way harder to stretch the truth or make false claims about past employment.

I've been searched as far back as early 2000's when I've looked at a job change. So, its been around for a long time. But, the best thing one can do when attempting to change careers is document the relevant tasks for the job you're after. That'll help immensely.

 

[emahlee]

Model, Professional Cam Model, Entertainer, Pornstar, Dancer, Photographer, Stripper, Lighting Specialist, SEO Expert, Social Media Expert, Webmasters, Publishers, Authors, Entrepreneurs, Independent Contractors, Business Owners, Interior Designers, Makeup Artist, etc!!! Depending on what all we do (if not all of these), IMHO, we kick @$$! I don't think we give ourselves enough credit! If we did, then just maybe the world "might" follow our lead?...

 

[Starman]

I was hoping more people would discuss their own preference in a selfish way more than trends in society

OK, my personal preference would be for the stigma to go away. It would be cool to be able to openly discuss cam models like people discuss their favorite musicians or movie stars.

However, I think the normalization of cam work would have repercussions we would not like. Someone said it would lead to a proliferation of cam sites. No, it would lead to the domination of 1 or 2 and those companies would be part of huge corporations - Disney for example.

With legitimization comes regulation, licensing, and businesses that feed on performers: legal specialists, model agencies, agent representatives, advertising platforms, etc.

Compare with another stigmatized thing that is becoming legit - marijuana. The more it is legalized or in the process of being legalized, the more corporate it is looking. There are big bucks behind the pro-marijuana lobby groups. In twenty years the marijuana industry will look a lot like the current liquor industry.

The upside of that for cam models is that when you retire, you can become a trainer, or find an advertising sponsor. You could be on the Wheaties box!

 

[yummybrownfox]

OK, my personal preference would be for the stigma to go away. It would be cool to be able to openly discuss cam models like people discuss their favorite musicians or movie stars.

Yup @ this. Whenever you tell people that you work from home, the next thing they ask is "Cool! How do you get into doing that?" and/or "What do you do?" Lol. I'm hoping to have enough work-from-home jobs lined up (where I can choose my own hours, or work whenever I want) + my Easter bunny job where I can just use one of those as a cover story...since we know how judgmental folks can be.

I'm also sick of the slut-shaming that so many people do (in real life, and on social media), with comments about how women who take their clothes off for money "have no respect for themselves." Sorry, but that is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. Go into several cam girls' rooms, and you will see the way they take charge, and stand up for themselves against trolls and whatnot. Cam girls are some of the most inspiring, badass chicks around...

 

[emahlee]

I guess it helps that I have vanilla websites that generates money. so i'm not quite being fair.

regardless of how I prefer to play the game of life. it would be sooo nice for people to open up to real true human sexuality.

vodka at 6pm talkin: it's not just customers that "get something" from camming, it's the model too! both cam models and consumers (of a cam models works) absolutely should not be stigmatized whatsoever, period!

(at least we arent outside causing problems! like having too much sex, babies, and making pollution!) I'm serious!

...and peeps, we are changing humanity for the better, right now as we speak.
WE are real, good people and the world just can't look the other way any longer.

(gosh i'm freakin' kinda, poetic when tipsy!) hehe

(that said, tell them you write articles for a super big website.. maybe : ..."wish i could tell you, but I don't want any non-legitimate traffic to the website." "wait don't know what I mean>? something about invalid impressions and ad revenues here. "bla bla..

today not everyone gets to know "what you do" i hope this tipsy-rant kinda helps! if not (haha) i shall fix the confusion at a later time.

 

[Lexi Lovegood]

I don't know, there are lots of jobs that most people don't particularly want to do that aren't horribly stigmatized. I don't want to be a nurse because I don't want to have to watch people die or regularly wipe people's asses, but I don't look down on the job. Similarly, even without the stigma of sex work, I can still see a lot of people not wanting to show their junk to a live audience and deal with people's commentary (not that you all show your junk, but you get my drift). Even without stigma, there are still a whole lot of occupational hazards that I can see people not wanting to deal with. I guess in my perfect world I would want it to be like it is in the Firefly universe; some people are still dicks about it, but it's respected in general. Inara still made bank (although I'm aware there are ALL sorts of reasons for why that's problematic comparison).

 

[Mila_]

I guess in my perfect world I would want it to be like it is in the Firefly universe; some people are still dicks about it, but it's respected in general. Inara still made bank (although I'm aware there are ALL sorts of reasons for why that's problematic comparison).

I think the difference with Inara is a matter of formality that in the Firefly universe being a companion is not something you fall back on. It is something you train for almost since childhood, it's like being a geisha. In Japan being a prostitute or an escort is stigmatized, but being a geisha is not. Because in order to be a geisha you have to study and train for a long time, put a lot of effort into it, and they are sought after for their skills in entertaining as well as for the erotic component. A geisha can dance, play a variety of instruments, some sing, etc.

 

[Lexi Lovegood]

I think the difference with Inara is a matter of formality that in the Firefly universe being a companion is not something you fall back on. It is something you train for almost since childhood, it's like being a geisha. In Japan being a prostitute or an escort is stigmatized, but being a geisha is not. Because in order to be a geisha you have to study and train for a long time, put a lot of effort into it, and they are sought after for their skills in entertaining as well as for the erotic component. A geisha can dance, play a variety of instruments, some sing, etc.

Hey I totally just got tipped yesterday for being a good conversationalist. Not a lot, but still.
No, I totally agree. The fact that she had to train for it her whole life is definitely most of the difference. And not everyone gets to go train on that planet either. The episode with the women in the brothel who weren't official companions showed that without that label, they got treated exactly how you would expect.

Edit: That smiley came out looking a lot more smug than I intended it to. I was going for playful. Maybe I'm reading too deeply into the expressions of the smileys. Don't mind me.

 

[Mila_]

Hey I totally just got tipped yesterday for being a good conversationalist. Not a lot, but still.
No, I totally agree. The fact that she had to train for it her whole life is definitely most of the difference. And not everyone gets to go train on that planet either. The episode with the women in the brothel who weren't official companions showed that without that label, they got treated exactly how you would expect.

Edit: That smiley came out looking a lot more smug than I intended it to. I was going for playful. Maybe I'm reading too deeply into the expressions of the smileys. Don't mind me.

I agree! Tokensite camgirls are entertainers first and SW second, but we still lack the training and the formality of companions/geishas!

 

[Lexi Lovegood]

I agree! Tokensite camgirls are entertainers first and SW second, but we still lack the training and the formality of companions/geishas!

Have you ever read or watched Memoirs of a Geisha? I've been thinking about it as the difference between Sayuri and Pumpkin (after the war). I know they both had the training, but as far as approach.

 

[Mila_]

Have you ever read or watched Memoirs of a Geisha? I've been thinking about it as the difference between Sayuri and Pumpkin (after the war). I know they both had the training, but as far as approach.

I think I watched the movie when it first came out but I can't remember most of it. What I know is from visiting Kyoto. I have no idea what the Sayuri and Pumpkin are... to my knowledge the only distinction with geishas is maiko/geiko with maiko being girls in training normally 16-20 and geikos being full geishas. But I dont know much about it

We also had a similar thing in the West, we had courtesans which played a very important role in high society and were respected for their services up until the Modern era. It was Industrial Society and the Revolution in France that wiped the concept.

 

[Lexi Lovegood]

I think I watched the movie when it first came out but I can't remember most of it. What I know is from visiting Kyoto. I have no idea what the Sayuri and Pumpkin are... to my knowledge the only distinction with geishas is maiko/geiko with maiko being girls in training normally 16-20 and geikos being full geishas. But I dont know much about it

We also had a similar thing in the West, we had courtesans which played a very important role in high society and were respected for their services up until the Modern era. It was Industrial Society and the Revolution in France that wiped the concept.

They were just characters. Both were traditionally trained, but after WWII Pumpkin ended up switching her approach to appeal to the US soldiers, and she would take shots with them and get all rowdy and party with them etc., while Sayuri still acted really traditional. I feel like camgirls are more like Pumpkin in their approach.