Overspending members and camgirl ethics.

[Guy]

What is Chaturbate's defult spending limit?

 

[Lucid1]

Chaturbate's spending limits depend on whether or not you complete a credit card authorization form. Without it, you are limited to 4 transactions per day, so seeing that their maximum purchase option is $159 for 2025 tokens, it seems to be roughly $600 per day. I'm not sure if BitCoin is the same, or not.

 

[AmiGold]

I had a grey turned blue who tipped me a lot in a couple of shows. He told me he loved it and it gave him a thrill, I told him to be careful as that could be addictive but he didnt listen. He ran up a debt of 20,000 dollars in a month. Now has to pay that off. We can warn them but if they keep tipping what can we do. Btw I didnt even get that much of those dollars either.

 

[Guy]

This is a situation that I believe most successful camgirls have experienced a few times in their career.
One of your top 3 tippers for the last 6 months or more, tells you that he is running out of money.
This is because he has lost his job, or because he is tipping beyond his means and going through his inheritance, kids college funds, or accident payout etc.

To your surprise, over the next month or two, you really don't notice a big decrease in tipping. He does tell you about the financial stress this is causing, huge credit card bills, falling behind on mortgage payments, tuition payments, or wife threatened divorce.

So what are the ethics in this situation?

Is it easy for members to overspend on Amazon wishlists?

 

[MDouble00]

Is it easy for members to overspend on Amazon wishlists?

Honestly @Guy it is easy for a member to overspend on anything if they don't control themselves. A person might think they are doing better by spending more on stuff off of wishlists, instead of buying tokens regularly. But, in the end if they don't really have the money to spare or don't pay attention to how they spend it they will quickly see that they overspend.

I personally have reached a point where I think about how much I spent on tokens similar to how much I've spent partying and drinking. It is not a math equation I want to calculate lol.

 

[Springer16]

I am trying to be cautious though have one model who I want to support, as she has had difficulty getting her cam score high enough and is generous with chat, snaps etc.. But I am a relatively small spender, though spending more than I should. I wish there was a way to send support directly so half or more of the value of the tokens wasn't lost to the site, instead of going to the model directly.

 

[dilligaf0]

I don't think the model has a responsibility to try to control a member's spending but I do think a model should not berate or try to shame a member if their spending habits suddenly change.
Try to be understanding about it. Many models don't want to hear "excuses" and many members are ashamed of admitting a bad financial situation.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

I am trying to be cautious though have one model who I want to support, as she has had difficulty getting her cam score high enough and is generous with chat, snaps etc.. But I am a relatively small spender, though spending more than I should. I wish there was a way to send support directly so half or more of the value of the tokens wasn't lost to the site, instead of going to the model directly.

As much as it might gall you to think of sending a large chunk to MFC, if that is her preferred payment method you are helping her most by using it. Especially if she's struggling to get her camscore up - every tip you make on mfc contributes to raising it higher.

 

[Ms_Gingersnatch]

I think it's a very good idea to give the customer a graceful "out" by assuring him that you understand and won't think any less of him if he has to reduce his spending. An example of a mature conversation of this nature might be: Him: "Hey, my job situation has changed recently, and I need to tighten my budget. I don't want you to think I adore you any less, though!" Me: "I'm sorry to hear that, but I completely understand. Thanks for letting me know that I didn't do anything wrong! I'll look forward to playing with you when you can, and I won't be offended when you can't."

Unfortunately, I've had several scenarios when guys gave me a sob story about their finances in order to angle for free stuff. For example: Him: "Bb, I've been spending so much on you that I'm going broke! I can't keep doing this anymore." Me: basically the exact same answer as the previous example. Him: "But bb, I looooove you soooo much! I neeeeed to see you!" Me: "Um, well, could you either reduce your other expenses or increase your income? Because, you know... math..." Him: Even more detailed sob story, followed by "I know I get you off the best, so maybe when you're horny we could play on Skype just for fun. You must be really wound up after faking it all night* for your other customers, so it would kinda be a favor to you." After I decline this generous offer, they usually continue their regular spending pattern with me or someone else, and I feel no need to worry about their budget.
*I very rarely fake it - only if someone is extremely insistent that I cum in a way that just isn't possible.

To the original question, do models have a moral obligation to stop their customers from ruinous spending? No, we're all grown adults, and telling someone how to manage their own budget is incredibly rude. On the other hand, insinuating that a lower level of spending is unacceptable to you isn't especially ethical and is a terrible business decision (no one wants to feel pressured and guilty in a cam room).

 

[Ms_Gingersnatch]

Regarding spending limits on sites, those aren't there to enforce anyone's personal budget. As long as you don't take the money back, sites give zero fucks about whether you spend yourself into horrible debt. Limits are there to reduce fraud, charge backs, and payments that may be too large for the sites' processors to handle without a hassle.

The reason that SM has a relatively low spending limit is that it's pretty much the only site where you don't pay up front by getting tokens or loading up your account. It would be totally possible to go private, stay longer than intended, and rack up a much larger bill than you anticipated. Let's face it, most guys don't enter a private thinking "My budget allows me to stay in private for X minutes. Let me set a timer so I don't overspend." Without a reasonable spending limit, a lot of guys could easily spend well into the high 3 figures (if not more) and then freak the fuck out and do a charge back. The limit is a friendly reminder of how much you've spent, but most customers can easily raise it and continue spending. SM just wants to be sure that you're aware of how much you're spending and are doing it intentionally.

On other sites, the limit can be much higher because you buy tokens up front, and it tells you right on the screen how much you're about to spend. It would be pretty rare for someone to freak out because they honestly didn't realize how much they were spending.If you buy tokens within your budget limits and spend them faster than you'd like, you can either be an adult and stick to your budget or go buy more tokens, but it's hard to argue that you didn't know what you were doing.

 

[dilligaf0]

I think it's a very good idea to give the customer a graceful "out" by assuring him that you understand and won't think any less of him if he has to reduce his spending. An example of a mature conversation of this nature might be: Him: "Hey, my job situation has changed recently, and I need to tighten my budget. I don't want you to think I adore you any less, though!" Me: "I'm sorry to hear that, but I completely understand. Thanks for letting me know that I didn't do anything wrong! I'll look forward to playing with you when you can, and I won't be offended when you can't."

Unfortunately, I've had several scenarios when guys gave me a sob story about their finances in order to angle for free stuff. For example: Him: "Bb, I've been spending so much on you that I'm going broke! I can't keep doing this anymore." Me: basically the exact same answer as the previous example. Him: "But bb, I looooove you soooo much! I neeeeed to see you!" Me: "Um, well, could you either reduce your other expenses or increase your income? Because, you know... math..." Him: Even more detailed sob story, followed by "I know I get you off the best, so maybe when you're horny we could play on Skype just for fun. You must be really wound up after faking it all night* for your other customers, so it would kinda be a favor to you." After I decline this generous offer, they usually continue their regular spending pattern with me or someone else, and I feel no need to worry about their budget.
*I very rarely fake it - only if someone is extremely insistent that I cum in a way that just isn't possible.

To the original question, do models have a moral obligation to stop their customers from ruinous spending? No, we're all grown adults, and telling someone how to manage their own budget is incredibly rude. On the other hand, insinuating that a lower level of spending is unacceptable to you isn't especially ethical and is a terrible business decision (no one wants to feel pressured and guilty in a cam room).

I would suggest this conversation be held in a private message exchange and not in the general chat room.

 

[Ms_Gingersnatch]

I would suggest this conversation be held in a private message exchange and not in the general chat room.

Yes, absolutely! This isn't a public type of conversation! I was raised to be very averse to discussion of money/income in ANY context, so I forgot that some people do not feel shame about discussing their financial situation in a group setting. (And if you are shameless about public financial disclosure, there's really nothing wrong with that. In the right context, it could even be helpful for others. Just not in a public cam room!)

 

[JickyJuly]

This is an interesting topic. My initial feeling would be that they were looking for a domme thing. If that weren't the case, I would personally ban. I do not, however, think it would be ethically my job to ban or really helpful to the member for me to do so. If we're talking about an actual addict, infantilizing them or removing all personal responsibility by blaming whatever they've become addicted to will not help them long term.

Last time my husband fell off the wagon (it's off right?), I spent a couple of weeks trying to fight the drugs, the drug dealers, anyone who was giving him money. I just wanted to insulate him from all of it until he went back to wanting sobriety...until he went back to the person I wanted. But, that's not how it works. He cleaned me out while I worried and fought for him. He didn't get back to reality until he wanted to. Once I did everything I needed to to insulate myself from the nonsense, he owned all of his choices and I was safe. That's how I see banning a member who is acting squirrely. It is in MY best interest. I hope they make better choices, but I'm not going to be drained by the drama.

Counter question: If you know that a camgirl is addicted to money, food, shopping or substances, do you, as a member, feel personal responsibility for spending tokens on her?

 

[opphs]

Unfortunately, I've had several scenarios when guys gave me a sob story about their finances in order to angle for free stuff. For example: Him: "Bb, I've been spending so much on you that I'm going broke! I can't keep doing this anymore." Me: basically the exact same answer as the previous example. Him: "But bb, I looooove you soooo much! I neeeeed to see you!" Me: "Um, well, could you either reduce your other expenses or increase your income? Because, you know... math..." Him: Even more detailed sob story, followed by "I know I get you off the best, so maybe when you're horny we could play on Skype just for fun. You must be really wound up after faking it all night* for your other customers, so it would kinda be a favor to you." After I decline this generous offer, they usually continue their regular spending pattern with me or someone else, and I feel no need to worry about their budget.
*I very rarely fake it - only if someone is extremely insistent that I cum in a way that just isn't possible.

This makes me so damn sad. It reveals that certain members who seemingly get it actually don't, and that's depressing.

 

[thedozer50]

Never had a show where I was worried about that. As a male, my highest show was 1300. Longest I've spent in a private was 15 minutes at 60 a minute. But I've seen guys too thousands of tokens at once. One, couldn't imagine spending that. Two, I'd cry if I even got that. I get happy with 100s...multiple 1000s? Sheesh

 

[MrSwoob]

I just recently was chatting with another member at MFC, we have a mutual camgirl that we are fans of. He shared he recently got a new credit card and maxed it out on the camgirl that we both like. He also lost his job. I was "WTF dude"

Is the camgirl responsible? NO he is. She is always appreciative of any tip, I know I am a small tipper, she calls me her splenda daddy.

Yet she also offers premium service for those that tip alot, pvt skypes, pvt snaps and more all for a premium. That is a perfect business model but for those that are compulsive when it comes to camming and money they can go broke quick.

No easy solutions, the models are not checking credit scores or are they psychologist to know when someone is over the edge. So it has to rest on the member.

 

[dilligaf0]

I think of it as a business transaction. Remove all "moral" aspects of it and that's all it is. If someone maxes out their credit card buying some furniture or electronics at a store, is the store responsible? NO!
If someone gets in over his / her head by going into debt buying a car, is the dealer responsible? NO!
Same situation with the "moral" aspect of "sex work" removed from it.

 

[Gen]

I think of it as a business transaction. Remove all "moral" aspects of it and that's all it is. If someone maxes out their credit card buying some furniture or electronics at a store, is the store responsible? NO!
If someone gets in over his / her head by going into debt buying a car, is the dealer responsible? NO!
Same situation with the "moral" aspect of "sex work" removed from it.

Honest question, do you think bars have a responsibility to stop serving alcohol to someone who's drunk? Alternatively, if someone says "I'm an alcoholic and drinking here is a problematic part of my addiction", do they have a responsibility to stop?

Either way, I think a key point of @HiGirlsRHot's argument is that the camgirl is made aware of the issue. That doesn't seem to be the case in your example @MrSwoob as far as I could tell?

For my opinion, I guess if I strip it down to really basic argument of responsibility, nobody has any responsibility to anyone but themselves. It reminds me of the argument that if your husband cheats on you, you can't be mad at the woman he's sleeping with because *technically* she has no responsibility to you. Like, yeah I guess she didn't marry me, but if she's doing it knowingly I can still think she's a cunt. It's still icky, questionable behaviour and I have no responsibility to not be judgmental, lol. I wouldn't want money from someone who's told me it's affecting them negatively.

That said, like Jolene, I'd likely ban them if they kept saying that and then tipping. Too much drama and I have no interest in playing the scolding nanny to someone who clearly enjoys the back-and-forth. And if you're addicted to tipping, get off the camsites. I wouldn't want that person in my room.

 

[dilligaf0]

Honest question, do you think bars have a responsibility to stop serving alcohol to someone who's drunk? Alternatively, if someone says "I'm an alcoholic and drinking here is a problematic part of my addiction", do they have a responsibility to stop?

Either way, I think a key point of @HiGirlsRHot's argument is that the camgirl is made aware of the issue. That doesn't seem to be the case in your example @MrSwoob as far as I could tell?

For my opinion, I guess if I strip it down to really basic argument of responsibility, nobody has any responsibility to anyone but themselves. It reminds me of the argument that if your husband cheats on you, you can't be mad at the woman he's sleeping with because *technically* she has no responsibility to you. Like, yeah I guess she didn't marry me, but if she's doing it knowingly I can still think she's a cunt. It's still icky, questionable behaviour and I have no responsibility to not be judgmental, lol. I wouldn't want money from someone who's told me it's affecting them negatively.

That said, like Jolene, I'd likely ban them if they kept saying that and then tipping. Too much drama and I have no interest in playing the scolding nanny to someone who clearly enjoys the back-and-forth. And if you're addicted to tipping, get off the camsites. I wouldn't want that person in my room.

I'm not sure the physical addiction to alcohol / drugs would be equivalent to an emotional addiction like a sex addiction would be. However, I do think if someone is drunk the bartender has a responsibility to stop serving them if nothing else to avoid possible liability from what may result from it. A person that is an alcoholic or drug addict has a personal responsibility to avoid situations where they can relapse.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

This is an interesting topic. My initial feeling would be that they were looking for a domme thing. If that weren't the case, I would personally ban. I do not, however, think it would be ethically my job to ban or really helpful to the member for me to do so. If we're talking about an actual addict, infantilizing them or removing all personal responsibility by blaming whatever they've become addicted to will not help them long term.

Last time my husband fell off the wagon (it's off right?), I spent a couple of weeks trying to fight the drugs, the drug dealers, anyone who was giving him money. I just wanted to insulate him from all of it until he went back to wanting sobriety...until he went back to the person I wanted. But, that's not how it works. He cleaned me out while I worried and fought for him. He didn't get back to reality until he wanted to. Once I did everything I needed to to insulate myself from the nonsense, he owned all of his choices and I was safe. That's how I see banning a member who is acting squirrely. It is in MY best interest. I hope they make better choices, but I'm not going to be drained by the drama.

Counter question: If you know that a camgirl is addicted to money, food, shopping or substances, do you, as a member, feel personal responsibility for spending tokens on her?

Regarding your question. I'm not sure how you become addicted to food, or money. I have on a few occasion felt responsible (or fall victim to a sob story) to bail a model out who through a combination of bad luck/lack of camming, said they were broke and need money for "rent". In one of the cases after doing this a couple of times only to find the model went out a bought luxury items (expensive concert tickets and clothes, etc) instead of paying off her credit cards. I did stop tipping her.
If one of my favorite models developed a substance abuse addiction, I'd urge her to get help but if they didn't work I won't hesitate to cut her off. I don't want to contribute to the epidemic of drug ODs in the country.
While you are right that ultimately only the addict can fix the problem, don't underestimate the impact that family and loved ones can do to help the addict. A good friend of mine's son become an Ice addict in high school, she did everything you did and more including telling his friend that she was holding them responsible if he got high and they didn't tell her. The family consensus is he'd be dead if she didn't do this stuff and dozen years later he has a lovely wife, good job, adorable kid and one of the gentlest giants (6' 5") I know.
Both your and Jolene approach from practical level makes sense, but I suspect there is an element of it doesn't feel right either.

either way, I think a key point of @HiGirlsRHot's argument is that the camgirl is made aware of the issue. That doesn't seem to be the case in your example @MrSwoob as far as I could tell?

For my opinion, I guess if I strip it down to really basic argument of responsibility, nobody has any responsibility to anyone but themselves. It reminds me of the argument that if your husband cheats on you, you can't be mad at the woman he's sleeping with because *technically* she has no responsibility to you. Like, yeah I guess she didn't marry me, but if she's doing it knowingly I can still think she's a cunt. It's still icky, questionable behaviour and I have no responsibility to not be judgmental, lol. I wouldn't want money from someone who's told me it's affecting them negatively.

Gen is exactly right. I certainly don't think camgirls have any moral responsibility to determine if a member is financially able to afford their ere level of tipping. The 20 something college student living at home, who has tipped you 100,000 tokens a month for the last 3 months, could have a trust fund, or an internet startup. It is true that sometimes members are more open about the financial strains of heavy tipping, and will hide it from models. But that's not always true sometimes they tell the models but don't mention it to their fellow regulars, and plenty of whales never talk to other members.

 

[Smores]

Do you all think addiction to camsites/tipping can be a real thing?

Absolutely this is an issue. I see guys who are working very middle class jobs dumping their entire paychecks into tipping their favorite models. These guys seem to fall in love and lose a healthy perspective on where the limits are. So you get the feeling that there is some kind of delusional element to it, on top of some kind of real love addiction issue.

You do feel bad for such people, but I never feel it is my place to talk to them about it. It is sad though. For the model, I agree with Ms Lollipop that it falls under personal ethics, rather than a moral duty.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

Regarding your question. I'm not sure how you become addicted to food, or money.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/...ating-disorder/mental-health-food-addiction#1

Food addiction is an eating disorder. You get an emotional rush, compulsions to eat past the point of hunger etc. Negative consequences in your life but you can't stop yourself.
I'm a bit confused that you're asking this?

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/...ating-disorder/mental-health-food-addiction#1

Food addiction is an eating disorder. You get an emotional rush, compulsions to eat past the point of hunger etc. Negative consequences in your life but you can't stop yourself.
I'm a bit confused that you're asking this?

Ya you are right. I was just thinking of food, money, and rent as sort of the standard reasons camgirls work. But even I'm not dumb enough to comment on camgirl's weight. Especially since I'am, what's the PC term nowadays? a person of size

 

[JickyJuly]

Regarding your question. I'm not sure how you become addicted to food, or money. I have on a few occasion felt responsible (or fall victim to a sob story) to bail a model out who through a combination of bad luck/lack of camming, said they were broke and need money for "rent". In one of the cases after doing this a couple of times only to find the model went out a bought luxury items (expensive concert tickets and clothes, etc) instead of paying off her credit cards. I did stop tipping her.
If one of my favorite models developed a substance abuse addiction, I'd urge her to get help but if they didn't work I won't hesitate to cut her off. I don't want to contribute to the epidemic of drug ODs in the country.
While you are right that ultimately only the addict can fix the problem, don't underestimate the impact that family and loved ones can do to help the addict. A good friend of mine's son become an Ice addict in high school, she did everything you did and more including telling his friend that she was holding them responsible if he got high and they didn't tell her. The family consensus is he'd be dead if she didn't do this stuff and dozen years later he has a lovely wife, good job, adorable kid and one of the gentlest giants (6' 5") I know.
Both your and Jolene approach from practical level makes sense, but I suspect there is an element of it doesn't feel right either.

People can definitely be addicted to food or money. Those are just acceptable addictions in our culture, and a lot of addicts move from something less acceptable to something like food or even work. I didn't mean to come off cold. I definitely believe that loved ones can assist an addict along with medical help. My husband moved across the country with me a couple of months after we met and was able to stay sober because it gave him a new start without contacts, he had a doctor, he had my support and HE wanted to be sober. I just disagree with climbing on the moral high horse and acting like some naked girl on the internet is changing an addict's behavior by cutting him off. It might be tempting to feel good about yourself for turning down money, and turning down money is certainly the right thing to do for your own self, but it's not saving anyone from anything. I guess the approach that Jolene and I are taking feels more respectful to me. If I ban someone because their problems are too much for me to carry, I'm treating them as an equal. If I say "hey, dude. you're addicted to me, and I need to save you from yourself!" I'm not.

 

[Gen]

Gen is exactly right.

Gosh I love hearing this

 

[zoober]

to put it in business school terms - you can take a transactional or a relational approach to camming. if its transactional i.e. one off transactions - then sure sure rip the guy off like a mofo. but he won;t be back, but if you can replace him, then that's dandy.

If it's relational and you wanting to buildup some regulars - then maybe not so good.Practical example seen today - dude came into room, was happy to catch cam girl not seen in weeks and tipped c.2,300 tokens. And hell yeah it was for a skype show no one was mentioning - but it was still getting paid

Transactional mofos have to re-climb that hill every day. Relational approach - not so much

 

[caireen]

Honest question, do you think bars have a responsibility to stop serving alcohol to someone who's drunk? Alternatively, if someone says "I'm an alcoholic and drinking here is a problematic part of my addiction", do they have a responsibility to stop?

Either way, I think a key point of @HiGirlsRHot's argument is that the camgirl is made aware of the issue. That doesn't seem to be the case in your example @MrSwoob as far as I could tell?

For my opinion, I guess if I strip it down to really basic argument of responsibility, nobody has any responsibility to anyone but themselves. It reminds me of the argument that if your husband cheats on you, you can't be mad at the woman he's sleeping with because *technically* she has no responsibility to you. Like, yeah I guess she didn't marry me, but if she's doing it knowingly I can still think she's a cunt. It's still icky, questionable behaviour and I have no responsibility to not be judgmental, lol. I wouldn't want money from someone who's told me it's affecting them negatively.

That said, like Jolene, I'd likely ban them if they kept saying that and then tipping. Too much drama and I have no interest in playing the scolding nanny to someone who clearly enjoys the back-and-forth. And if you're addicted to tipping, get off the camsites. I wouldn't want that person in my room.

100% this.

Any yah, I agree with what is said above about not infantalizing members/ trying to save them. I went through this situation recently, and banned the member, and sent him resources for help, but he is still around, tipping more than ever. I am definitely "losing out" on a lot of money, but I don't want that money. I would personally feel terrible finding out that that person legitimately ruined their life while I sit on my pile of cash.

But I still think as humans we have a responsibility to look out for other people. And as camgirls to not take advantage of members' vulnerabilities. But that is my own personal code of ethics.

 

[CharlieCharma]

One thing i sometimes wonder: what about findommes? They, I think, are in somewhat of a different financial relationship with members than the average camgirl. Do they have a responsibility?

I've been contemplating this, because part of the fetish of femdom, for some men, is the Domme saying "Go broke for Me, ruin your finances for Me, give Me everything". Do the Dommes mean it? Personally, I'd rather have a sub who steadily tributes a more modest amount than one who drops a huge amount and can't continue.

I had to tell a guy to fuck off until he got paid because he kept trying to come back for more blackmail fantasy role play when he was in between paychecks. It's not my job to control how much they spend. No, I don't want anyone to actually go in financial ruin, I just like the fantasy. But I am providing a service and 100% believe any dude who brings up his sob story is just trying to be manipulative.

Unfortunately, I've had several scenarios when guys gave me a sob story about their finances in order to angle for free stuff. For example: Him: "Bb, I've been spending so much on you that I'm going broke! I can't keep doing this anymore." Me: basically the exact same answer as the previous example. Him: "But bb, I looooove you soooo much! I neeeeed to see you!" Me: "Um, well, could you either reduce your other expenses or increase your income? Because, you know... math..." Him: Even more detailed sob story, followed by "I know I get you off the best, so maybe when you're horny we could play on Skype just for fun. You must be really wound up after faking it all night* for your other customers, so it would kinda be a favor to you." After I decline this generous offer, they usually continue their regular spending pattern with me or someone else, and I feel no need to worry about their budget.

Yeah, that's straight up manipulative.They're trying to get free shit. They know what they're doing. This is exactly why I don't believe sob stories.

 

[Guy]

Absolutely this is an issue. I see guys who are working very middle class jobs dumping their entire paychecks into tipping their favorite models. These guys seem to fall in love and lose a healthy perspective on where the limits are. So you get the feeling that there is some kind of delusional element to it, on top of some kind of real love addiction issue.

You do feel bad for such people, but I never feel it is my place to talk to them about it. It is sad though. For the model, I agree with Ms Lollipop that it falls under personal ethics, rather than a moral duty.

What do you think of this article? https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140212153252.htm

 

[Smores]

What do you think of this article? https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140212153252.htm

It's a great article. Maybe what we call porn addiction is - more often than not - actually a porn fetish. It can be just another form of sexual expression.

I guess the question is at what point does any fetish become destructive to your overall life, and who makes those judgements? What is the criteria?