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Horrors of Stalinist concentration camps
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EspiKvlt
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Did you not know about this?
I'm not trying to be rude, I'm genuinely curious, as America's education system almost never talks about it.
I'm not trying to be rude, I'm genuinely curious, as America's education system almost never talks about it.
I did know about it. I have read books about Joseph Stalin and the Gulag.
Ive been reading about it since I was 14. It took almost nothing for someone to be sent into the Gulag system. During World War II the NKVD (secret police) sent a Hungarian teenager to one of the camps for owning a radio.
Really? Maybe its because I was in school during the tail end of the Cold War, but the brutality of Soviet punishment, especially during Stalin's despotism, was taught to the point of oversaturation in social studies when I was a kid. I still associate Siberia with the same sort of go-there-and-don't-come-back, openly-secret-horrors that Guantanamo is associated with today. Only worse, because Commies.
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EspiKvlt
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They didn't even teach us that Stalin committed genocide. And I was in the AP European History class in high school and everything. I didn't learn about that until I found out by myself.
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Here is what is completely screwed. Working my way through "The Greatest Story Never Told" documentary. It is 6 hours long I think, still have about an hour to go.
Without excusing or denying the Holocaust (haven't seen any of that yet), I have to say Hitler is completely understandable considering what was going on at the time. It is not like he just popped up for no reason.
Look at the turmoil Germany was in during the 20s-30s, look at all the craziness that was going on with Stalin and elsewhere in Europe. I bet most people would have gone along with Hitler (non Jewish people).
Course I had read about this already in bits and pieces. Documentary is a little hard to take in the beginning, kind of starts off like a Hitler worship piece.
Doesn't fit the us good = them bad story line though.
Without excusing or denying the Holocaust (haven't seen any of that yet), I have to say Hitler is completely understandable considering what was going on at the time. It is not like he just popped up for no reason.
Look at the turmoil Germany was in during the 20s-30s, look at all the craziness that was going on with Stalin and elsewhere in Europe. I bet most people would have gone along with Hitler (non Jewish people).
Course I had read about this already in bits and pieces. Documentary is a little hard to take in the beginning, kind of starts off like a Hitler worship piece.
Doesn't fit the us good = them bad story line though.
I'm pretty sure I didn't learn it in history classes in school either. On the other hand, lots of kids don't know who fought in WWII, so it is hardly a surprise.
The Gulag Archipelago by Nobel Laurate Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn is amazing and terrifying look at life inside Stalin's camps.
I also have this book. https://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Genocides-Rights-against-Humanity/dp/0691152381
If you find yourself understanding genocidal tyrants, may want to step back and think where you misstepped.
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No. I disagree.
I don't think the USA would have been any different tbh if they had been in Germany's place. Stalin was fucked up. Collectivization, famine in Ukraine? Had Communists raising hell in Germany, brawls and shootings in the streets, they were burdened by reparations? Their world was falling apart. Situation was ripe for a strongman. If it wasn't Hitler, probably would have been someone else.
Understanding tyrants good I think. Loathing them or worshipping them, maybe not so much.
Doesn't excuse the Holocaust; but considering the history of anti-Semitism in Europe, hardly surprising that featured as well. Stalin himself even dabbled a little supposedly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism.
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That is indeed what I said. From afar, of course. If you have suffered under one it is a different matter.
If you are trying to understand anyways.
It is estimated that 2 million german women and girls were raped by Red Army soliders during WWII.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-war-crime-Russia-Germany-tried-ignore.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-war-crime-Russia-Germany-tried-ignore.html
There is a difference in understanding how an authoritarian gets in and maintains power and framing the situation as understanding Hitler and somehow it affecting the "us good, them bad" concept.
Cus, uh, that frames it as the idea of 'them bad' being wrong.
Like, yeah, the rise of Hitler and fascism in general in Europe (ie: Italy and Spain as the main examples, Romania too) and other authoritarian regimes can be analyzed in an academic causal way but you're framing it in terms of literally having empathy for the situation and given tyrants.
And you see nothing wrong there?
Cus, uh, that frames it as the idea of 'them bad' being wrong.
Like, yeah, the rise of Hitler and fascism in general in Europe (ie: Italy and Spain as the main examples, Romania too) and other authoritarian regimes can be analyzed in an academic causal way but you're framing it in terms of literally having empathy for the situation and given tyrants.
And you see nothing wrong there?
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Nope.
Hitler was not the cause of the situation, but the result of it. I guess you could say the same was true for Stalin.
Were they bad? Yep. We all are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment)
And always for the greater good I guess.
Have you never completely lost your way, then looked back and wondered "How did I get so far out there?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Personal_life_and_characteristics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Childhood_and_education
They were people. You cannot empathize with people?
There is no possibility that the US could have ever ended up in Germany's place. There were geographical and political elements at play that I don't believe could ever be replicated in North America.
I understand you're making broad statements, here, but I think Behemoth has it nailed.
My area of study in undergrad was the Wiemar Republic, and the tides of culture that were in motion leading up to the rise of the Nazi party. Yes, it's quite possible to understand an entity and loath it at the same time. Given the damage that those particular people had done to Europe, the repercussions of which we are still dealing with generations later -- on many fronts -- no, I don't believe that those particular people are deserving of empathy. No, I do not believe I can look at people responsible for systematically dismantling and destroying quite a lot of Western culture, up to and including making modern innovations to genocide, and think to myself, "yeah, I guess I can see where they're coming from." That's a very worrying line to toe, let alone cross.
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No, that is not what I meant. Not talking about geography, or the differences in the political climates at the time.
I meant if you took the people of the USA, put them in the Germans/Russians shoes, facing the same circumstances, they probably would have behaved the same.
Perhaps. Mainly I think his objection is to the idea that the Commies/Nazis weren't bad, and that we weren't good. Not sure at this point.
If those people do not deserve empathy, then none do imo. This was not a first time occurrence. This did not start with the Wiemar Republic or the Bolshevik Revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
(A serious question here, considering you have more education on this matter than me. What is your view on the role WWI reparations played in leading to WW2? I have heard it blamed completely, ignored entirely, and combinations in between. Interested in your opinion, not baiting you.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history
Genocide is nothing new. Neither is using the latest innovations to enact it.
Is genocide caused by empathy?
Or is it caused by a lack of empathy (and an abundance of propaganda)?
To be clear, I am not a Soviet (Stalinist, what have you...) or a Nazi (neo, white supremacist, etc...). And I certainly don't endorse their crimes, their gulags, or their gas chambers.
And I disagree. I'm not saying that there is any moral superiority either way. I am saying that there are circumstantial elements at play, forming two distinct cultures that have been shown historically to act and react differently given similar circumstances. And honestly, I don't believe that you can separate geography from this topic.
I don't think "Nazis and Stalinists are bad" is a particularly controversial position to hold.
You keep using the word "empathy" to describe an approach to understand Nazis and Stalinists, and I find that to be a big problem. I will not ever empathize with the likes of Stalin or Hitler. The very notion of doing so is absurd and sickening to me. So then, the question is whether or not those who fell in line with those regimes deserve any empathy. Those who may have found themselves caught up in the currents of those regimes might benefit from some empathy, but those who actively helped establish and support those regimes do not. From where I'm standing, there is a particularly wild-eyed, paranoid, destructive form of reactionism at play in these situations, and I don't find that outlook to be especially defensible on either moral or practical grounds.
Let's rephrase the question: Can there be any empathy involved in the act of rounding up and destroying entire populations of people?
It seems to me that your argument rests on the idea that because people might be easily swayed to act out or at least condone evil, and that acts of evil continue to be repeated, then perhaps we need to learn to empathize with evil people. Or, perhaps you're trying to say that there's no such thing as true evil? Either way, I'm disturbed by the notion. You'll excuse me if I don't mince words, here. I want to make my position abundantly clear.
Even today, in a culture where everything is on a spectrum, and nothing is supposed to be absolute, I'm willing to state with no equivocation that there is such a thing as acts of true evil. If we can't classify something like genocide, no matter what form it takes, as true evil, then I think we've failed both morally and rationally as people. Again, how can that possibly be a controversial position to hold?
Reparations played a major role in the destruction of democracy in Germany during the Great Depression. I don't think that holding Germany so wholly responsible for the outcome of WWI was all that fair, and I think the consensus of history has mostly landed on the same conclusion. The economic problems that had such potent effects on the world at the time were especially compounded in Germany, and it ultimately meant the collapse of the Weimar Republic and the installation of Hitler as a dictator.
The Great Depression was that point where a lot of social structures in the West were reset or replaced, and Fascism proved to be a strong contender at a time when so much seemed to be going wrong, and so much was unstable for such a long time. A focus on social order and a turn inward toward a collective (national) identity definitely has a certain appeal, especially to the naive and idealistic, and those who look at inevitable change and recognize it as chaotic. I don't think that sort of thinking is evil in itself. I do think it's a way of thinking that is easily manipulated to commit or at least abide by evil, though -- at least in so far as history has shown us. I don't know if Fascism can avoid evil. I think the mechanisms that define it are far too susceptible to really vile forms of extremism. So, by the time Germany turned toward a fascist dictatorship, too many pieces had fallen into place.
Genocide is an obvious trump card, but even if the Nazis hadn't committed genocide, they still did quite a lot of other despicable stuff. The military aggression, the astonishing amount of cultural looting, the active impediment of social progress -- there is a gestalt of very bad things that form a pretty horrific whole. This may come off as a bit glib, but the fact of the Nazi acts of genocide helps to make the debate moot. Still, even without that factor, I think there's enough to indict the Nazis as "bad".
And given that Stalinists are guilty of the same sort of stuff, including genocide, just perpetrated in a different way and via a different named political ideology, I have no trouble identifying them as "bad", too.
Whether or not others (like the US) could or should be seen as "good", currently or in the past, might be more debatable, but that's not the discussion we're having.
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I can separate the cultural differences and the geography quite easily. Mainly because the idea of moral superiority is what I am talking about. It was heavily emphasized in my indoctrination.
That is exactly what I was remarking on. Not so much the names Nazis/Stalinists/Americans/Allies/Axis...
Us good = them bad.
empathy: ability to share someone else’s feelings or experiences by imagining what it would be like to be in that person’s situation
I have no trouble doing this on this topic. Stalin/Hitler/etc...are not off limits to me. But I understand where you are coming from. I guess we all have different capacities for this.
If you think I am suggesting that genocide is not evil, that is not the case. Can there be any empathy?
"The woman said to me: ‘Even if I die, please, I beg you, let my child, Aline, survive.’ She was the youngest, a girl aged nine. I hid her in a basket where I used to store my grain. I was scared but I did it because they were close neighbours...
After that, I started to participate in the killings. I felt free to kill because the government told us to do it...
They were begging for forgiveness. But because of the government order to kill them, we didn’t forgive them. We killed them...
When you are killing, you don’t feel anything. You’re like an animal. But afterwards, you wonder why did I kill those people? When I got home, I thought about how I used to visit them at their house, how they used to invite me over. I felt sick...
I was not normal. It’s like I was two different people. One part of me had to save the life of this Tutsi child. Another part felt like I had to kill Tutsi...
When I remember those people I killed, I feel sick. Sometimes I think about how I’m living and how they’re supposed to be alive as well...
After the genocide, I took Aline to an orphanage. Now she’s married with two children. She has a good life in Kigali.”
http://news.trust.org//item/20140402103837-orbum/
Man, the Rwandan Genocide. That shit makes me sick to my stomach when I think about it. It's ironic, because you've obviously presented that quote because it serves as evidence for a way in which you can empathize, but I would have presented the same quote for exactly the opposite reason. In my mind, a person who had real empathy would have looked at their neighbors, seen human beings, and not killed anyone because he was told to by the government. There is a dark sort of mania that is involved with this behavior that I can't wrap my head around. Beyond the people who succumb to this sort of mania, there are others who orchestrate it. Even if I was to find my way to understanding the mindset that leads to killing my neighbors for no good reason, I sure as hell will never be able to empathize with those who came up with the idea in the first place.
I think you're right -- I think we find ourselves at different capacities for this sort of thing. I'm comfortable with despising genocidal despots and anyone who might aspire to be one.
I think you're right -- I think we find ourselves at different capacities for this sort of thing. I'm comfortable with despising genocidal despots and anyone who might aspire to be one.
So, this was of course worse than Hitler and Germany but history made sure you only focused on Hitler.
Who needed to do that and why?
While you're at it. Have you ever actually considered the 6 million Jews killed story? Even if they weren't all Jews,that number is impossible to accomplish in 4 years with the amount of camps and ovens they had..but people just believe it at face value.
Most everything you think you know about the world is revisionism, propaganda and lies.
Who needed to do that and why?
While you're at it. Have you ever actually considered the 6 million Jews killed story? Even if they weren't all Jews,that number is impossible to accomplish in 4 years with the amount of camps and ovens they had..but people just believe it at face value.
Most everything you think you know about the world is revisionism, propaganda and lies.
EspiKvlt
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Always gonna be a wild thread when @Cal_blue shows up.
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Holocaust denial. That's just what this thread needs.
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Main reason I posted that was not an example of his empathy, but mine from afar. Can I put myself in his shoes?
Subjected to the social tensions, the hatred and anger, the fear, the propaganda...I wonder, what would I have done? Swung my machete when it was expected of me? Turned on those closest to me and accepted my place with the victims? It's a real headfuck alright.
I have considered that part. And I consider it silly quibbling over details. White supremacists I knew in the past were quite certain it meant something.
Suppose we prove beyond a shadow of doubt only 1 million Jews died in the Holocaust (not likely, this is just an example). What am I supposed to say? "whew, that's a relief!"?
You are posting like an idiot @Cal_blue.
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