ACF 2012 Presidential Election Poll

[jackie_O]

Ask yourself this - why is "support the troops" even a thing, unless it's a right-wing propaganda tactic to brand those objectionable to the war as unpatriotic?

Why does supporting the troops not mean getting them the FUCK out of a pointless war they should never have been exposed to, instead of an implicit excusal of having continued to occupy a foreign country?

For a LOT of people it does mean exactly that. Quite a few people saying they support the troops, say it conditionally. As in "I don't support the war, but I support the troops."

Support the troops is a thing because of the situation during and following Vietnam, where people adamantly didn't support the war, and the troops frequently suffered for it, in some pretty heart wrenching ways. As of our more recent wars people want to be able to express distaste for the war while showing difference to the troops because they acknowledge that the troops shouldn't suffer because of it.

 

[JoleneBrody]

I will point out that I started this by using tax funded VA hospitals and therapy as an example, to which tubby freaked the fuck out in a very emotional and over the top manner, only further proving my point.

Whether or not you do support the troops is pretty off topic. I just used it as an example of something else "aftermath" that all of our tax dollars support unconditionally, and disagreeing with the war effort does not get you off the hook.
As an American we compromise for freedom. If you want to be free to disagree that means you may also have to pay for the things you don't agree with because other do, in the majority.

 

[Bocefish]

It's all your fault JJ! Bad girl!

 

[Mirra]

Alright... then let's go forward with the post I was going to make anyhow. Sorry about that.

Ask yourself this - why is "support the troops" even a thing, unless it's a right-wing propaganda tactic to brand those objectionable to the war as unpatriotic?

Why does supporting the troops not mean getting them the FUCK out of a pointless war they should never have been exposed to, instead of an implicit excusal of having continued to occupy a foreign country?

For a LOT of people it does mean exactly that. Quite a few people saying they support the troops, say it conditionally. As in "I don't support the war, but I support the troops."

Support the troops is a thing because of the situation during and following Vietnam, where people adamantly didn't support the war, and the troops frequently suffered for it, in some pretty heart wrenching ways. As of our more recent wars people want to be able to express distaste for the war while showing difference to the troops because they acknowledge that the troops shouldn't suffer because of it.

My thing is that I know so many of the troops (So many Marines around this area). I know their reasons for serving and the excuses our government give for the conflicts have NOTHING to do with it. Your average enlisted man or woman isn't who deserves the blame. Will that save them if some kind of war crimes are brought against the USA? Probably not but I feel like if that should come to pass, that'll just another reason for me to respect and appreciate these people at the lowest levels for shouldering a blame I don't feel they deserve.

I know where you're coming from and it's easy for me to sit here in the USA in 2012 and condemn everyone who was convicted of war crimes in other times and places. It's another thing for me to condemn the men and women I know who serve... and SERVE is the correct term for them unlike today's politicians.

Edit: For clarification, when I say "I support our troops" I only kind of mean it overall. What I really mean is I support our enlisted men and women.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I will point out that I started this by using tax funded VA hospitals and therapy as an example, to which tubby freaked the fuck out in a very emotional and over the top manner, only further proving my point.

God, we can't take you anywhere! lol

 

[Kradek]

What I really mean is I support our enlisted men and women.

Why just enlisted? Don't support officers?

 

[JickyJuly]

Fortunately, you can be anti-war or against a particular war and still be in favor of supporting our troops and having compassion for what they go through. A lot of people sign up for the armed forces as a way to get out of poverty or get an education. To some degree, they can't really be faulted for how our Government abuses the power of having troops. I personally HATE war especially the current ongoing war, but few things make me more upset than how easily America discards veterans. Tubby's enjoyment of killing the "enemy" (IF he's being truthful about his time in service) is not the norm.

 

[Mirra]

What I really mean is I support our enlisted men and women.

Why just enlisted? Don't support officers?

I support the enlisted men and women more unconditionally than the officers. When things like that bullshit at Abu Ghraib or the soldiers pissing on dead bodies happens, that's unacceptable and flushes any respect I had down the toilet. Officers, on the other hand, are much more accountable for the MILITARY actions that take place. I still support them. Like I said, I still kind of mean it overall when saying "I support our troops." The officers just aren't quite guiltless enough for me to feel comfortable with such a blanket statement so I qualified it in that edit.

Fortunately, you can be anti-war or against a particular war and still be in favor of supporting our troops and having compassion for what they go through. A lot of people sign up for the armed forces as a way to get out of poverty or get an education. To some degree, they can't really be faulted for how our Government abuses the power of having troops. I personally HATE war especially the current ongoing war, but few things make me more upset than how easily America discards veterans. Tubby's enjoyment of killing the "enemy" (IF he's being truthful about his time in service) is not the norm.

Amber! Your forum won't let me thank this more than once.

 

[Bocefish]

Speaking of the military and our current campaigner in chief...

This is one of the reasons I watch Fox. The MSM is pitiful in reporting anything that puts Obama in a bad light. If this happened under Bush's watch, the MSM would be all over it like stink on shit.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/192475941300 ... peaks-out/

Obama & his admin have been lying their asses off about Benghazi since day 1.

 

[Bocefish]

Father of Slain Navy SEAL in Libya Says Obama 'Had No Remorse,' Biden Made Disrespectful Joke

The father of one of the Navy SEALs killed in the September attack on the U.S. consulate in Libya says that President Barack Obama did not seem sorry when he met him at the ceremony in which the bodies of the four slain Americans were returned to the United States. Vice President Joe Biden, he says, also made a disrespectful joke about his son.

Charles Woods, the father of Tyrone Woods, described meeting Obama and Biden at Andrews Air Force Base to Glenn Beck on the conservative commentator's program Thursday night.

"His face was pointed towards me but he would not look me in the eye," Woods says of meeting Obama. "I could tell he was not sorry. He had no remorse."

When Beck suggested that perhaps the president was struggling with how to talk to someone who just lost a son, Woods said he had another story to tell that showed the White House wasn't sorry.

Woods says Biden started his address to the grieving families that day by saying that he, too, had "received one of these damn phone calls," referring to the car crash that killed Biden's first wife and first daughter.

[RELATED: Navy SEALs Will Air Anti-Obama Ads During 'SEAL Team Six' Film]

"An hour later, he came over and approached me," Woods told Beck. "And in an extremely loud and boisterous voice, [he asked,] 'Did your son always have balls the size of cue balls?'"

Woods asked Beck: "Are these the words of someone who is really sorry?"

The father says that while he initially declined to speak publicly about the loss of his son, he decided to call Beck after hearing reports alleging that the White House watched the Libya attack in real time and declined to help.

[PHOTOS: Navy SEALs Jump From Planes, Kick in Doors]

That allegation surfaced after the public release of E-mails that were sent to the State Department Operations Center during the attack, some of which showed a known terrorist group claiming credit for the attack immediately afterward. The White House has said those E-mails were not an official intelligence assessment, and do not contradict what officials knew at that time.

But Woods says he does not believe the White House.

"My son's life was sacrificed because of the White House's decision," he told Beck.

[SEE ALSO: Obama Outraises Romney Among Defense Donors]

The father also criticizes Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who he says told him at Andrews Air Force Base that she would ensure the person who made the film "The Innocence of Muslims" would be arrested and prosecuted. The anti-Islamic film was initially blamed for sparking the protests at the consulate, but is now believed to have played a far lesser — if not negligible — role.

"She had to know she was not telling the truth," Woods said.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washin ... ctful-joke

 

[Bocefish]

Charles Woods, father of Navy Seal Tyrone Woods who was killed in the attack on the Libyan embassy, talks to Glenn about his son...

 

[Jupiter551]

You sound like those assholes that spit on returning Vietnam vets with your rhetoric.

The US Military is now 100% volunteer, however, they have no choice but to follow orders once enlisted or face Court-martial.

Don't be ridiculous - you're just reinforcing exactly what I said, that anyone who questions the "support the troops" rhetoric is immediately branded some kind of anti-social, ungrateful dissident.

Let me spell it out for you - of course I respect men and women who risk their lives to protect our freedoms. That is a fucking given, I don't need to go round yelling it - it's a freaking obvious, default position for any sane member of a society! "Support our troops" on the other hand is right-wing propaganda that more-or-less translates to "don't question the war" - and THAT I will not buy into, nor will I passively agree with continued international aggression because I'm scared of being thought treasonous.

You know who doesn't support our troops? Idiot politicians who send them into wars that could have been avoided. I'd say needlessly killing troops (not to mention civilians) by starting a pointless war qualifies as NOT SUPPORTING them.

It's beside the point, but for your own education troops are only required to follow lawful orders. Unlawful orders do not have to be followed, and doing so leaves the soldier open to criminal liability.

 

[Nordling]

Jeezus! Now we're posting Glenn Beck? Why don't you just post people who've recently been released from insane asylums?

 

[Bocefish]

Jeezus! Now we're posting Glenn Beck? Why don't you just post people who've recently been released from insane asylums?

Typical BS lame response, bash the source instead of the content. I'm posting what Mr Woods had to say but if that's too hard for you to understand, it's your loss. Just because it doesn't come frome some leftist site doesn't mean it's not worth posting or true.

 

[Bocefish]

You sound like those assholes that spit on returning Vietnam vets with your rhetoric.

The US Military is now 100% volunteer, however, they have no choice but to follow orders once enlisted or face Court-martial.

Don't be ridiculous - you're just reinforcing exactly what I said, that anyone who questions the "support the troops" rhetoric is immediately branded some kind of anti-social, ungrateful dissident.

Let me spell it out for you - of course I respect men and women who risk their lives to protect our freedoms. That is a fucking given, I don't need to go round yelling it - it's a freaking obvious, default position for any sane member of a society! "Support our troops" on the other hand is right-wing propaganda that more-or-less translates to "don't question the war" - and THAT I will not buy into, nor will I passively agree with continued international aggression because I'm scared of being thought treasonous.

You know who doesn't support our troops? Idiot politicians who send them into wars that could have been avoided. I'd say needlessly killing troops (not to mention civilians) by starting a pointless war qualifies as NOT SUPPORTING them.

It's beside the point, but for your own education troops are only required to follow lawful orders. Unlawful orders do not have to be followed, and doing so leaves the soldier open to criminal liability.

Here's some education for you, if a soldier doesn't follow an unlawul order, he will still face a court-martial to determine whether it was lawful or not which is what I said.

That "support the troops" rhetoric has done nothing but serve the interests of those who declared and prolonged the war in the first place. You guys really did turn into a neo-fascist state for a while

Calling us neo-fascists for supporting our troops does make you sound like those assholes that spit on returning Vietnam vets, but maybe you forgot saying that part.

 

[Nordling]

Jeezus! Now we're posting Glenn Beck? Why don't you just post people who've recently been released from insane asylums?

Typical BS lame response, bash the source instead of the content. I'm posting what Mr Woods had to say but if that's too hard for you to understand, it's your loss. Just because it doesn't come frome some leftist site doesn't mean it's not worth posting or true.

Typical shallow response. The SOURCE determines the CREDIBILITY. That this guy even was willing to TALK to that moron, means HE has no credibility. And shit like, "he never looked me in the eye." Blah blah blah blah blah. This crap is not worthy of your thread, Sir!

 

[Nordling]

Regarding the contention of returning soldiers being spit on by anti-war protesters, I have yet to see any video of this or any actual, credible news reports of it ever happening. I don't doubt that there may have been isolated instances, but if so they were most likely very rare. Most instances we hear about are second or third hand anecdotes, or from people who may not be telling the truth.

Another bit more violent instance than spit

May 4, 1970
Four anti-war hippies shot to death at Kent State. And this DID happen.

 

[Jupiter551]

That "support the troops" rhetoric has done nothing but serve the interests of those who declared and prolonged the war in the first place. You guys really did turn into a neo-fascist state for a while

Calling us neo-fascists for supporting our troops does make you sound like those assholes that spit on returning Vietnam vets, but maybe you forgot saying that part.

I most certainly did not forget it, and I stand by it, although the statement about the (slogan) "supporting the troops" and the statement about becoming a neo-fascist state for a while, are two seperate statements. Note the period in between them.

the point of public relations slogans like "Support Our Troops" is that they don't mean anything [...] that's the whole point of good propaganda. You want to create a slogan that nobody is going to be against and I suppose everybody will be for, because nobody knows what it means, because it doesn't mean anything. But its crucial value is that it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something, do you support our policy? And that's the one you're not allowed to talk about.
~Noam Chomsky

A country that can ostracise and persecute people for expressing an opinion (see Dixie Chicks criticising Bush and the subsequent backlash) is not the kind of nation I had thought the USA ever was. Whatever happened to liberty and free speech? I'm glad your country has pulled back from that, because for a while it didn't look very free or fair.

Take the blinkers off and try to see a little more clearly, my country is far from perfect, nor is yours or any other country.

 

[Bocefish]

Jeezus! Now we're posting Glenn Beck? Why don't you just post people who've recently been released from insane asylums?

Typical BS lame response, bash the source instead of the content. I'm posting what Mr Woods had to say but if that's too hard for you to understand, it's your loss. Just because it doesn't come frome some leftist site doesn't mean it's not worth posting or true.

Typical shallow response. The SOURCE determines the CREDIBILITY. That this guy even was willing to TALK to that moron, means HE has no credibility. And shit like, "he never looked me in the eye." Blah blah blah blah blah. This crap is not worthy of your thread, Sir!

WOW! This man raised a son that fought for our country as a Navy Seal and was brutally murdered while heroicly giving his life in defense of others due to Obama's ineptness and he's the one who has no credibility. I guess it really shouldn't surprise me you feel that way.

 

[Neudiin]

 

[Bocefish]

That "support the troops" rhetoric has done nothing but serve the interests of those who declared and prolonged the war in the first place. You guys really did turn into a neo-fascist state for a while

Calling us neo-fascists for supporting our troops does make you sound like those assholes that spit on returning Vietnam vets, but maybe you forgot saying that part.

I most certainly did not forget it, and I stand by it, although the statement about the (slogan) "supporting the troops" and the statement about becoming a neo-fascist state for a while, are two seperate statements. Note the period in between them.

the point of public relations slogans like "Support Our Troops" is that they don't mean anything [...] that's the whole point of good propaganda. You want to create a slogan that nobody is going to be against and I suppose everybody will be for, because nobody knows what it means, because it doesn't mean anything. But its crucial value is that it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something, do you support our policy? And that's the one you're not allowed to talk about.
~Noam Chomsky

A country that can ostracise and persecute people for expressing an opinion (see Dixie Chicks criticising Bush and the subsequent backlash) is not the kind of nation I had thought the USA ever was. Whatever happened to liberty and free speech? I'm glad your country has pulled back from that, because for a while it didn't look very free or fair.

Take the blinkers off and try to see a little more clearly, my country is far from perfect, nor is yours or any other country.

As far as the Dixie Twits go, freedom of speech works both ways and can sometimes be a real bitch.

Your support our troops nonsense is exactly that, nonsense.

 

[Jupiter551]

As far as the Dixie Twits go, freedom of speech works both ways and can sometimes be a real bitch.

Your support our troops nonsense is exactly that, nonsense.

Just forget it, you're a moron. I'm only slightly less of one for not figuring that out 43 pages ago.

 

[Nordling]

Jeezus! Now we're posting Glenn Beck? Why don't you just post people who've recently been released from insane asylums?

Typical BS lame response, bash the source instead of the content. I'm posting what Mr Woods had to say but if that's too hard for you to understand, it's your loss. Just because it doesn't come frome some leftist site doesn't mean it's not worth posting or true.

Typical shallow response. The SOURCE determines the CREDIBILITY. That this guy even was willing to TALK to that moron, means HE has no credibility. And shit like, "he never looked me in the eye." Blah blah blah blah blah. This crap is not worthy of your thread, Sir!

WOW! This man raised a son that fought for our country as a Navy Seal and was brutally murdered while heroicly giving his life in defense of others due to Obama's ineptness and he's the one who has no credibility. I guess it really shouldn't surprise me you feel that way.

Being the father of a brave warrior does NOT confer any particular credibility onto you. Lots of fine people have fools as parents. It doesn't surprise me that since you hate our President you love to spit on him in any way you can, even when it stretches credibility.

 

[Bocefish]

Jeezus! Now we're posting Glenn Beck? Why don't you just post people who've recently been released from insane asylums?

Typical BS lame response, bash the source instead of the content. I'm posting what Mr Woods had to say but if that's too hard for you to understand, it's your loss. Just because it doesn't come frome some leftist site doesn't mean it's not worth posting or true.

Typical shallow response. The SOURCE determines the CREDIBILITY. That this guy even was willing to TALK to that moron, means HE has no credibility. And shit like, "he never looked me in the eye." Blah blah blah blah blah. This crap is not worthy of your thread, Sir!

WOW! This man raised a son that fought for our country as a Navy Seal and was brutally murdered while heroicly giving his life in defense of others due to Obama's ineptness and he's the one who has no credibility. I guess it really shouldn't surprise me you feel that way.

Being the father of a brave warrior does NOT confer any particular credibility onto you. Lots of fine people have fools as parents. It doesn't surprise me that since you hate our President you love to spit on him in any way you can, even when it stretches credibility.

Far from spitting on him but I do enjoy exposing him as the incomptent leader he is.

 

[Anonymous]

Ooh, I wanna see Neudiin's squirrel!



EDIT: It's cute!!!

 

[Nordling]

Far from spitting on him but I do enjoy exposing him as the incomptent leader he is.

Except you're not, you're just spewing hate. The sources you use for your inept EXPOSÈS are incredibly lacking ANY credibility.

NEWS: Fox News hates the President and will lie to make him look bad! Local cam girl message board member repeats what Fox says to no effect.

 

[Nordling]

Ooh, I wanna see Neudiin's squirrel!



EDIT: It's cute!!!

Ha ha! Every time I've tried to pet a squirrel I got severely bitten. lol

 

[Anonymous]

Ha ha! Every time I've tried to pet a squirrel I got severely bitten. lol

I'd be afraid to pet one.

 

[Bocefish]

Far from spitting on him but I do enjoy exposing him as the incomptent leader he is.

Except you're not, you're just spewing hate. The sources you use for your inept EXPOSÈS are incredibly lacking ANY credibility.

NEWS: Fox News hates the President and will lie to make him look bad! Local cam girl message board member repeats what Fox says to no effect.

The fox segment I posted, she actually stood up for the president, but by all means... continue living in your own little liberal world with blinders on.

 

[Mirra]

Being the father of a brave warrior does NOT confer any particular credibility onto you. Lots of fine people have fools as parents. It doesn't surprise me that since you hate our President you love to spit on him in any way you can, even when it stretches credibility.

Far from spitting on him but I do enjoy exposing him as the incomptent leader he is.

I'm sorry but I just can't make myself get riled up over an unverifiable story. This, as well as so many of your arguments, don't really make me question this administration's leadership. To me, most of them are more like a case of shoe-in-mouth disorder and not downright incompetence.

Here, let me make it a bit easier for you. I'm going to tell you the reasons I am voting for Obama in hopes he will beat Romney. Please tell me where I'm wrong or why I should support Romney instead on these issues rather than telling me what someone claims the President did without any way of backing it up or attacking the President's use of teleprompters or attacking the fact he hasn't released information about himself that no President ever has been expected to release. I'm looking for some substance here.

• Romney's jobs plan sounds like a version of "trickle down economics" which I just don't believe actually works based on previous administrations' attempts at that approach.
• Romney's tax plan doesn't add up in my head. If the wealthiest 5% are going to still pay 60% of the taxes that means the bottom 95% are still going to pay 40% of the taxes but Romney claims he's cutting taxes on the middle class! Besides his jobs plan, which I don't believe will work, I don't see where he plans on increasing the size of the middle class enough to back up his claims.
• I don't actually know what Romney's foreign policy is. If we go based on his latest statements, there's little different from Obama. If we go based on his statements over the last 8 years, I think he's been wrong on the middle east and China a few times. Obama's not been perfect but I think he's done an okay job.
• Romney left most of the socially conservative "Family Values" alone as governor but has spoken positively of the pro-life side of things a couple times since then. I don't know which Mitt we'll get as President.
• Romney has condemned the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act despite being responsible for similar legislation in his own state. I personally think it could work to save the government money over the long haul and want to see for myself once it's in effect. We've tried trickle down economics, why not give this a shot? Surely no one disagrees that the healthcare industry desperately needs changes to be more affordable. It seems like a question of what changes to me.
• Romney's claims of being able to be so bipartisan don't impress me. I think he could do it but I think that's because the Democrats won't present the same organized, unyielding, uncompromising, uncooperative front in Congress that the Republicans have.