Women judging women (Big Brother UK)

[mynameisbob84]

I don't think I'll ever understand women :?

I'm one of those sad people who watches Big Brother (the UK version) like, unironically. The past few weeks there's been two housemates in particular who have been at the centre of the show. Daley has a girlfriend on the outside and has been flirting with, spooning, and sharing a bed with Hazel, even though he's in a relationship. Hazel meanwhile, has been flirting with Daley more and more as the weeks go by despite knowing he has a girlfriend and despite him telling her to cool things down because Hazel just happens to be a model and he's a man and he lacks restraint, dammit.

On the post-show recap they have a panel of Big Brother "experts" recapping the day's events and they have live phone-ins with viewers calling in to discuss shit. I've noticed a pattern emerging that kinda surprised me. Almost universally, the women who have phoned in have put the blame solely on Hazel, even though Hazel is single and it's Daley who has a girlfriend.

Tonight's show was genuinely uncomfortable to watch. Hazel and Daley have been staying in a separate bedroom away from the rest of the house and both were drunk, slapping each other's ass, flirting and playfighting. Then things took a really ugly turn when a drunk Daley ("jokingly") grabbed Hazel by the throat, pinned her down on the bed and threatened to "nut" her if she didn't "respect her elders". You could tell she was scared and it was apparent that he'd taken the "playfighting" way too far. Not that there's anything wrong with that kind of thing if it's happening between two consenting adults who have discussed boundaries beforehand and both know exactly what they're getting into. But this wasn't that, ya know?

On tonight's show, it was revealed that Daley had been removed from the house. Already on Twitter, there are literally thousands of tweets from women branding Hazel a "manipulative slut". Is this kind of thing common? Do women typically side with men in this kind of thing? Does the fact that a woman happens to be attractive make her more likely to be judged harshly by other women? I just don't get it :?

 

[Deleted member 8603]

Women keep misogyny around nearly as much as men.
Because some women are completely taken in by the idea that women are less and want to keep them in their place, thinking it will make them seem favorable to men?

Basically, all human beings are fucking idiots and will do whatever it takes to make themselves seem better than others.

It all stems from feelings of worthlessness.

Some people hate themselves and lash out at others in a desperate attempt to make themselves feel better.

 

[Kunra9]

 

[Rose]

In situations that I've witnessed firsthand, the women always hated each other for seemingly no reason without even knowing the backstory. I've always found that completely stupid.

If it were me, I'd blame all of that shit on the man since he seems to be the common denominator in all those situations (cheating, taking the play fighting too far.) When past exs cheated on me, whether or not I knew the other woman, I blamed my ex for being a douche bag. I never laid the blame on the other women because, in my case, they didn't know he was in a relationship and didn't purposefully try to 'steal' him.

TL;DR: Men are stupid. Women are stupid. People are just complicated as all fucking hell to deal with and it's usually because of their own idiocy.

 

[Crumb]

you're just noticing this now??

 

[Deleted member 8603]

In situations that I've witnessed firsthand, the women always hated each other for seemingly no reason without even knowing the backstory. I've always found that completely stupid.

If it were me, I'd blame all of that shit on the man since he seems to be the common denominator in all those situations (cheating, taking the play fighting too far.) When past exs cheated on me, whether or not I knew the other woman, I blamed my ex for being a douche bag. I never laid the blame on the other women because, in my case, they didn't know he was in a relationship and didn't purposefully try to 'steal' him.

TL;DR: Men are stupid. Women are stupid. People are just complicated as all fucking hell to deal with and it's usually because of their own idiocy.

THIS!!!

Whose fault is it that you're hurt?
A: The complete stranger/person you've met twice who owes you nothing/person who might not even know you're in a relationship.
B: The person who promised to love and keep you happy, then betrayed you.

 

[JickyJuly]

I think it's pretty simple just sad. We're all raised in a world that embraces patriarchy. Sadly, a lot of women buy into it. They might even think having the opinion that women are temptresses and men victims will make them more attractive to men. How sad is that? Treating men like victims of their own genitals is going to get you more dick?

 

[southsamurai]

lordy, dont ever come to the south of the USA, that kind of behavior is required education in kindergarten almost. our ladies be some catty wenches lol

 

[Gen]

Is this kind of thing common?

Yep, totally.

Do women typically side with men in this kind of thing?

Not all women, obviously. A lot of women, yes. I'd imagine it depends on the sample of women, too.

Does the fact that a woman happens to be attractive make her more likely to be judged harshly by other women?

I think that's part of it but I think all women are judged to similar extents, but in drastically different ways. I'm sure if she was homely she'd be judged for being desperate and willing to take any guy even if he's in a relationship, as opposed to a conventionally attractive women who would probably (and according to this example, seemingly) just be called a slutty whore.

I just don't get it :?

These are some of the reasons that, in my opinion, this stuff happens. As is evident, I look at things from a feminist perspective and am studying social psychology and sociology, so I also attribute a lot to socialization and favour nurture over nature.

- Women aren't exempt to sexist ideas, like that women are sluts/at fault for flirting (or more!) but that men aren't. Most women have a lot of internalized misogyny (aka, have learned and accepted a lot of sexist thoughts like those). Likewise, if the dude on this show got violent with her, there are a lot of women who, like a lot of men, are prone to minimizing violence against women or question it -- well, was she flirting with him? Maybe he didn't realize how strong he was, maybe he just accidentally took it too far but didn't realize she'd get upset, whatever. (And, obviously on the flip side - there are also loads of women AND men who don't do this!)

- Women have been socialized to be competitive and to view other women as something to compare yourself to. Additionally I think that we're encouraged to cut each other down, and to voice those opinions. Especially if the woman can be seen as a threat (a hot model) - if you view someone competitively, you want to try and neutralize that by drawing attention to their faults.

- There's a lot of social cost to speaking out for women...this is more in the case of the second incident, but saying "what he did was wrong" can peg you as overreactive, irrational, an angry feminist, etc. This is the reason why I take ages to type out forum posts on stuff like this - because I don't want to come across as an angry feminist spouting our generalities and making irrational claims, or (as is often said about stuff like this) making something out of nothing. But I do think that how women relate to each other is ribboned with sexist ideas, and this is one reason why you may see a lot of women speaking against Hazel but less against Daley. Even saying something might maybe kind of be sexist can shut down a conversation at times. A lot of women I know who would agree with the guy being kicked out wouldn't be comfortable saying that publicly, especially if the general consensus was that Hazel was a manipulative bitch. I think this social cost can go for men, too - I believe most men aren't sexist but just like women are often passive to stepping in and being like "whoa, no, I disagree, it's not her fault that he choked her" - but I think there is more stigma for women to come across that way.

(I feel like I'm overthinking this but now I can't stop, hahah.)

- Men's sexuality is seen as inevitable -- guys are supposed to be horny 24/7, thinking about sex every seven seconds, absolutely unable to resist a hot girl (especially a model!), whatever. Women's is seen less-so, so it makes sense to me that these women calling in might rationalize (like Daley did) that of course when a hot girl is flirting with him, he is gonna flirt back, but that she (who isn't as sexually aggressive or needy) could resist him - so therefore, she should be the one shutting this whole thing down.

- Some women just have different opinions. I mean, duh and that sounds stupid but it does bear a mention if I'm going to go into so much detail about socialization and whatever else. But while I don't think (from what you've told me) that Hazel is a manipulative slut, although I don't think it's nice to flirt with someone you know is taken, some people view relationships and monogamy and all that stuff differently. Many women I know have a stark "it's never the other person's fault" viewpoint, I tend to be a little more in the middle (it's not their fault, but it sure isn't a nice thing to do), and obviously these women phoning in are on the other end. As much as I wish everyone agreed with me, sadly they don't



As for understanding women...we're no more or less complex than men. :dontknow:


ETA: And Jicky sums up in three lines what I rambled about for paragraph! :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

Is this kind of thing common? Do women typically side with men in this kind of thing? Does the fact that a woman happens to be attractive make her more likely to be judged harshly by other women? I just don't get it :?

It sure seems like it. You hear about a woman (whose bf cheated on her with another woman) wanting to beat "that slut's" ass. And then afterwards, she goes and makes up with the slimeball bf who the fight was about.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Women defended Chris Brown when he beat up Rihanna. Women have much smaller brains than men(SCIENTIFIC FACT) so I don't think we should hold all of their shortcomings against them.

 

[Rose]

lordy, dont ever come to the south of the USA, that kind of behavior is required education in kindergarten almost. our ladies be some catty wenches lol

Seriously. That shit is like some kind of virus down here. It's disgusting.

My own mother almost thought that way about my father cheating on her until she realized, "nope! He's just a jerk and can't control his own weiner. That other lady didn't even know that buttface has three infants and a wife at home." I have no clue how they're still together.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

On tonight's show, it was revealed that Daley had been removed from the house. Already on Twitter, there are literally thousands of tweets from women branding Hazel a "manipulative slut". Is this kind of thing common? Do women typically side with men in this kind of thing? Does the fact that a woman happens to be attractive make her more likely to be judged harshly by other women? I just don't get it :?

:shhh: Let's just leave things as they are. When women stop blaming the other woman and start blaming the guy then balls get glued to legs or they just get cut off all together. Ain't nobody got time for that. Let's not give 'em ideas now.

 

[Kunra9]

It's the one thing about women that baffles me the most.

Women (generally) really do hate other women.

Guys fight over women. They will beat eachother's brains into pavement over a woman. But often times, those same two guys will share a beer and a laugh over it that same night. Guys like other guys. We help eachother meet women. We "wingman" and work in teams to meet and get women.

I never see women do that. Women will go out as a group, with the intention of meeting men, and if they find a group of guys they will have a quick huddle and each call "dibs" on a guy they're interested in. Then it's every woman for herself. If things work out with your guy, good for you. If not... stay the fuck away from me and the guy I'm talking to.

So many friends who have been cheated on repeatedly go back to the guy and hate all the women he's boned. Yet... HE IS THE PROBLEM! 9 times out of 10, those girls didn't know he had a girl. Often times he deliberately told the girls he was single. But no. Those bitches are sluts.

If women really did get past all that, Women as a whole, Women truly would rule the planet.

 

[SexySteph]

Women defended Chris Brown when he beat up Rihanna. Women have much smaller brains than men(SCIENTIFIC FACT) so I don't think we should hold all of their shortcomings against them.

WHAT?!

Brain size does not equate to less intelligent. So, thank you for that Victorian-ized tid bit.
Also. as genxoxo misogyny is often internalized by women. We are taught our whole lives that we are competing against other women and we are taught to keep each other in our place with insults like "bitch, slut, whore" etc. These women who are calling her a slut are unconsciously reacting this way because of the way our brains are trained by our misogynistic surroundings. I have other things I'd like to say but, your one sentence has angered me to the point that I'll just leave it at this.

ETA: I just wanted to add that patriarchy as a system pits women against each other, while it does not do the same for men.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

 

[Just Me]

Women defended Chris Brown when he beat up Rihanna. Women have much smaller brains than men(SCIENTIFIC FACT) so I don't think we should hold all of their shortcomings against them.

WHAT?!

Brain size does not equate to less intelligent. So, thank you for that Victorian-ized tid bit.
Also. as genxoxo misogyny is often internalized by women. We are taught our whole lives that we are competing against other women and we are taught to keep each other in our place with insults like "bitch, slut, whore" etc. These women who are calling her a slut are unconsciously reacting this way because of the way our brains are trained by our misogynistic surroundings. I have other things I'd like to say but, your one sentence has angered me to the point that I'll just leave it at this.

ETA: I just wanted to add that patriarchy as a system pits women against each other, while it does not do the same for men.

Exactly. It is propaganda used to control what people think. It is so ingrained in the culture and society they do not realize they have been brainwashed.

While it might be scientific fact that women's brains on average are smaller. Common sense since their heads are on average smaller than men's. Causation does not imply correlation. There are plenty of studies and reports saying that women's brains work more efficiently. Equating smaller brains with shortcomings is just more misogyny and sexist propaganda.

My biggest gripe against this kind of behavior is blaming someone other than the person you have a relationship with. This goes for both men and women, they almost always want to beat up or hurt the person their significant other is cheating with, who many times did not even know they were in a relationship. Of course violence should not be done to either party but why beat up the person you do not know and had no clue about you rather than the person actually hurting you?

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Women defended Chris Brown when he beat up Rihanna. Women have much smaller brains than men(SCIENTIFIC FACT) so I don't think we should hold all of their shortcomings against them.

You only quoted one part of the study and left out the part that negates your entire reasoning.

A new study has revealed that while female brains are smaller than those of males, females use their brains more efficiently, achieving the same results.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/4/womens-brains-smaller-mens-used-more-efficiently/

 

[Nordling]

Not to mention, that if absolute brain size were the only factor in intelligence, then the rulers of the world would be elephants and whales.

 

[Rose]

Not to mention, that if absolute brain size were the only factor in intelligence, then the rulers of the world would be elephants and whales.

I don't know..... Some of them seem to be.

jk, lol

 

[Nordling]

Oh, and as far as Chris Brown's beating of Rihanna, whenever a celebrity does some horrendous deed, you can always find people who continue to defend them. Why isn't your little bit of trollery balanced with HOW MANY MEN DEFEND CHRIS BROWN? What's the ratio? Have there been polls taken?

:angry4:

 

[PunkInDrublic]

The brain comment was meant as a joke. Buncha sensitive sallies.

 

[Nordling]

The brain comment was meant as a joke. Buncha sensitive sallies.

Your delivery system is a muddy road.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

The brain comment was meant as a joke. Buncha sensitive sallies.

Sarcasm is best left to the experts.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

I blame the audience.

 

[Gen]

I blame the audience.

Silly women, our tiny brains can't understand humour!
Or maybe men just aren't funny?

 

[zippypinhead]

Not to mention, that if absolute brain size were the only factor in intelligence, then the rulers of the world would be elephants and whales.

Whales are the rulers of the seas, and the seas are most of the world. They've been secretly running things forever.


One thought that occurs to me, but takes us a bit away from the gender politics that are being discussed, is the fact that these shows are designed to elicit certain reactions from certain types of people. Producers employ folks like demographers and psychologists and skilled writers and editors in order to filter the material into narratives that may or may not actually be happening, which attract certain people to watch it unironically. But make no mistake: it's total fabrication. People who are so invested into this narrative to want to call in and voice their opinions are, frankly, putting forth the least objectively reliable reactions. They are the people who totally and willfully suspended disbelief. They call Hazel a manipulative slut because that's how she's been painted in the minds of these people. This reaction might be lost on you because you're an anomaly that falls far enough away from the target that the cues might be lost on you, but I'd be willing to wager that if you went back and looked a bit harder at how they'd set up the mechanics of her "character" arc, you'd find the markers that prompt people to be so disapproving of her and so forgiving of the philanderer. It's soap operas.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Silly women, our tiny brains can't understand humour!

Exactly.

Or maybe men just aren't funny?

Kinda young to already hate men.

 

[Rose]

Not to mention, that if absolute brain size were the only factor in intelligence, then the rulers of the world would be elephants and whales.

Whales are the rulers of the seas, and the seas are most of the world. They've been secretly running things forever.


One thought that occurs to me, but takes us a bit away from the gender politics that are being discussed, is the fact that these shows are designed to elicit certain reactions from certain types of people. Producers employ folks like demographers and psychologists and skilled writers and editors in order to filter the material into narratives that may or may not actually be happening, which attract certain people to watch it unironically. But make no mistake: it's total fabrication. People who are so invested into this narrative to want to call in and voice their opinions are, frankly, putting forth the least objectively reliable reactions. They are the people who totally and willfully suspended disbelief. They call Hazel a manipulative slut because that's how she's been painted in the minds of these people. This reaction might be lost on you because you're an anomaly that falls far enough away from the target that the cues might be lost on you, but I'd be willing to wager that if you went back and looked a bit harder at how they'd set up the mechanics of her "character" arc, you'd find the markers that prompt people to be so disapproving of her and so forgiving of the philanderer. It's soap operas.

The beauty of television and why so many people like watching their 'stories'.

 

[Nordling]

Not to mention, that if absolute brain size were the only factor in intelligence, then the rulers of the world would be elephants and whales.

Whales are the rulers of the seas, and the seas are most of the world. They've been secretly running things forever.


One thought that occurs to me, but takes us a bit away from the gender politics that are being discussed, is the fact that these shows are designed to elicit certain reactions from certain types of people. Producers employ folks like demographers and psychologists and skilled writers and editors in order to filter the material into narratives that may or may not actually be happening, which attract certain people to watch it unironically. But make no mistake: it's total fabrication. People who are so invested into this narrative to want to call in and voice their opinions are, frankly, putting forth the least objectively reliable reactions. They are the people who totally and willfully suspended disbelief. They call Hazel a manipulative slut because that's how she's been painted in the minds of these people. This reaction might be lost on you because you're an anomaly that falls far enough away from the target that the cues might be lost on you, but I'd be willing to wager that if you went back and looked a bit harder at how they'd set up the mechanics of her "character" arc, you'd find the markers that prompt people to be so disapproving of her and so forgiving of the philanderer. It's soap operas.

Ha ha re: whales running shit. I wish they did.

And whoa! I hope that wasn't addressed to me but to the OP. lol I was only responding to the general comments about women; I don't know jack about Big Brother, UK or US. I tried to watch it once and fell into a deep sleep that lasted forty years, and when I finally woke, I had a beard to my toes and all of my friends and family were history.