Trayvon Martin

[Bocefish]

According the probable cause affidavit filed, the prosecution is basing their 2nd degree murder charge on 3 things:

1. Zimmerman failed to heed the dispatcher saying "We don't need you to do that."

2. The person screaming for help was supposedly Trayvon and not Zimmerman.

3. They interviewed the friend of Martin's who was talking to him by phone just before the shooting. The affidavit says Martin told the friend that he was being followed and was scared. It says Martin tried to run home, but that Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him.

Not exactly "smoking gun" type evidence we weren't aware of.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/to ... ZMeHg.cspx

 

[Jupiter551]

Not exactly "smoking gun" type evidence we weren't aware of.

Right, but at this stage they're hardly going to release into the public domain any new evidence that they don't need to. They established probable cause - that's enough for the arrest.

 

[Bocefish]

The affidavit also states that Martin tried to run home but was followed by Zimmerman. As if stubby legged 28 year old Zimmerman could catch Trayvon, being a 6'3", 17 year old athlete in a foot pursuit. :lol:

I heard Trayvon was only like 70 feet from where his dad was at which just raises other questions in the whole thing. Some accounts place him approximately 100 yards from where his dad was staying. :dontknow:

The affidavit also states Zimmerman confronted Trayvon and a struggle ensued. How do they know that?

 

[Jupiter551]

The affidavit also states that Martin tried to run home but was followed by Zimmerman. As if stubby legged 28 year old Zimmerman could catch Trayvon, being a 6'3", 17 year old athlete in a foot pursuit. :lol:

I heard Trayvon was only like 70 feet from where his dad was at which just raises other questions in the whole thing. Some accounts place him approximately 100 yards from where his dad was staying. :dontknow:

The affidavit also states Zimmerman confronted Trayvon and a struggle ensued. How do they know that?

Witness testimony, scene forensics, who knows? Presumably they have more evidence than the media is privy to. As for the running - the girlfriend told him to run, and he responded that he was going to walk fast. Zimmerman told the dispatcher that the guy was running, as Zimmerman got out to follow him. Maybe it was a jog? Maybe Tray didn't realise Zimmerman had left the car and stopped running once he got round the corner into the lane between the houses?

Once again, the facts, minus the speculation and assumptions = Zimmerman pursued Trayvon, a witness heard Z confront him, minutes later Trayvon was dead.


Lol just realised - Miami - if Dexter were real Zimmerman would be on his table :lol:

 

[Bocefish]

Bottom line is the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt Zimmerman did not fire in self-defense and intended to kill Trayvon. I don't see that happening. YMMV :dontknow:

 

[Jupiter551]

Right but if they can/have established that it was Trayvon calling for help, and have evidence against Zimmerman's account of events (which at least one witness disputes so far), then he is - to use a legal term - royally fucked.

 

[Bocefish]

Right but if they can/have established that it was Trayvon calling for help, and have evidence against Zimmerman's account of events (which at least one witness disputes so far), then he is - to use a legal term - royally fucked.

As far as the experts using their state-of-the-art equipment about who was yelling help...

Using it, he found a 48% likelihood the voice is Zimmerman’s. At
least 60% is necessary to feel confident that two samples are from the
same source, he told CNN on Monday — meaning it’s unlikely it was
Zimmerman who can be heard yelling.

The experts, both of whom said they have testified in cases involving
audio analysis, stressed that they cannot say who was screaming.

The witness on the phone heard nothing proving Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon, it's all circumstancial evidence. There is zero direct evidence we know of so far, to disprove Zimmerman's claim of self-defense and that he intended to kill Trayvon.

 

[Jupiter551]

Right but if they can/have established that it was Trayvon calling for help, and have evidence against Zimmerman's account of events (which at least one witness disputes so far), then he is - to use a legal term - royally fucked.

As far as the experts using their state-of-the-art equipment about who was yelling help...

Using it, he found a 48% likelihood the voice is Zimmerman’s. At
least 60% is necessary to feel confident that two samples are from the
same source, he told CNN on Monday — meaning it’s unlikely it was
Zimmerman who can be heard yelling.

The experts, both of whom said they have testified in cases involving
audio analysis, stressed that they cannot say who was screaming.

The witness on the phone heard nothing proving Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon, it's all circumstancial evidence. There is zero direct evidence we know of so far, to disprove Zimmerman's claim of self-defense and that he intended to kill Trayvon.

I'm pretty sure they didn't use the audio experts employed by the media lol, FBI is involved in this I believe and they have their own labs for that kind of analysis, as well as witnesses, and frankly let's face it, how hard can it be to tell the difference between a 17 year old black kid and a 28 year old white guy shouting, when there are samples to compare?

There are witnesses that dispute Zimmerman's accounts - one who says they weren't anywhere near the footpath and were struggling on the grass (forensics will confirm or deny that), and who places Zimmerman as being on top, and being unhurt and walking around (ie not like a dude who just almost died) within moments after the shooting looking "worried".

You have Trayvon's girlfriend who is a witness who heard everything up til and the very first part of the confrontation who gives an account that matches exactly with the known evidence up until she disputes Zimmerman's version of the start of the confrontation.

This right here is enough to cast serious doubt on his version of events. Witnesses claim it didn't happen how Zimmerman said. So why lie?

You have Trayvon himself, with no history of violence, talking to his girlfriend, walking fast or running attempting to get away from the man following him who then...according to Zimmerman turns round and attacks? Wut? Why would he do that? What motive does he have?

I'll tell you what motive Zimmerman has though for making up a story. 1) He just shot a dude and realises what he's done and is thinking fuck fuck I gotta make this look like self-defense. 2) He thought Tray was suspicious, he thought he was a suspicious black man in the neighbourhood who was up to no good and running cos he was guilty and based on those assumptions he made up a story of the guilty scary black guy attacking him. Unfortunately for him it later came out that Tray was 17, on his way back to watch a basketball game. He almost got away with it, his story probly would have worked if it was an adult black man with no family to fight for him.

Can't you see how preposterous it looks to suggest Trayvon was retreating from this weird guy following him and then ambushes and attempts to kill him? LOL?

 

[Bocefish]

I can absolutely see both sides of this, but the facts support Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. Without a clear eye-witness to testify disputing self-defense, it's all circumstantial so far for the prosecution.

 

[Nordling]

I can absolutely see both sides of this, but the facts support Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. Without a clear eye-witness to testify disputing self-defense, it's all circumstantial so far for the prosecution.

Circumstantial evidence is not only admissible but often the camel's straw.

 

[Jupiter551]

I can absolutely see both sides of this, but the facts support Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. Without a clear eye-witness to testify disputing self-defense, it's all circumstantial so far for the prosecution.

They don't, Zimmerman's own account supports self-defense; but that's completely suspect - even more so when witnesses start contradicting him. Eyewitnesses who saw him only moments after the shooting say he appeared unhurt - hell for all we know those minor injuries he had (which didn't even require stitches) could have been self-inflicted to support his own self-defense claim.

The "facts" as presented by Zimmerman are nothing more than the defendant's account - and if that conflicts with physical, forensic and witness evidence then it is worse than circumstantial; it's proof of deceit.

 

[Nordling]

I can absolutely see both sides of this, but the facts support Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. Without a clear eye-witness to testify disputing self-defense, it's all circumstantial so far for the prosecution.

They don't, Zimmerman's own account supports self-defense; but that's completely suspect - even more so when witnesses start contradicting him. Eyewitnesses who saw him only moments after the shooting say he appeared unhurt - hell for all we know those minor injuries he had (which didn't even require stitches) could have been self-inflicted to support his own self-defense claim.

The "facts" as presented by Zimmerman are nothing more than the defendant's account - and if that conflicts with physical, forensic and witness evidence then it is worse than circumstantial; it's proof of deceit.

And all they have to show is strong evidence that he lied in his talk with the police at the scene and later at the police station a couple times...that makes his whole story as useful as a lump of rotting meat.

One, I totally don't believe his story that Trayvon "ran" at any time. Walked fast? Sure...that's what he said he was going to do.

 

[Jupiter551]

I saw an in depth explanation of the affidavit where it was pointed out (for the first time I'd heard) that as I said here about two weeks ago - his statements and mindset as evinced by the dispatch tapes and his actions show that Zimmerman decided Trayvon was a criminal before he event left his vehicle.

Some legal perspectives - food for thought (there's more to the article I just pasted a particular part I see sense in):
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/12/justice/florida-shooting-charge/index.html?iref=allsearch

But Miami defense attorney Jayne Weintraub told CNN's "Early Start" that she was not surprised by the charge.
"It's typical second-degree murder," Weintraub said. "It's the heat of passion, spur of the moment in the middle of a fight. That's what second-degree murder is typically used for."[...]

A conviction for second-degree murder carries a maximum sentence of life in prison. Under Florida law, prosecutors who bring a case are expected to show that a death resulted from a criminal act and that the killer showed a "depraved mind" without regard for human life.
Weintraub said that's demonstrated by Zimmerman getting scared "and he goes for his gun."
"When there's no gun, there's nothing facing him except a 17-year-old kid," Weintraub said. And she predicted that an account by Zimmerman's brother -- that Martin had beaten him nearly unconscious -- "won't match the evidence."
I suspect that there is some evidence we just don't know about.

And CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin to CNN that despite the intense scrutiny of the incident, the charge suggests there's more to the case than publicly known.
"I suspect that there is some evidence we just don't know about, because no prosecutor in a high-profile case wants to walk into court and not be able to prove each and every count beyond a reasonable doubt," Hostin said. "You don't want to lose so publicly."

 

[Bocefish]

I agree there must be more evidence we don't know about for her to charge him with murder2, that's my whole point.

We were getting back to speculation and if this or if that... we've hashed over the existing facts enough.

One, I totally don't believe his story that Trayvon "ran" at any time. Walked fast? Sure...that's what he said he was going to do.

The affidavit also states he ran. You can download the affidavit and read it yourself http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/to ... ZMeHg.cspx

 

[Nordling]

I agree there must be more evidence we don't know about for her to charge him with murder2, that's my whole point.

We were getting back to speculation and if this or if that... we've hashed over the existing facts enough.

One, I totally don't believe his story that Trayvon "ran" at any time. Walked fast? Sure...that's what he said he was going to do.

The affidavit also states he ran. You can download the affidavit and read it yourself http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/to ... ZMeHg.cspx

"The affidavit states." Unfortunately, the affidavit wasn't there and I'd call this a misstatement by the prosecution, since the only evidence we know of "running" is Zimmerman's word, whereas according to Trayvon's friend, although she told him to run, he said he was going to "walk fast." Saying he ran is very weak, since if he was really running, he'd probably have been home before any of this came to fruition.

His friend also said that Trayvon told her he was scared. When you're scared by someone following you, do you double back on them and confront them? Maybe, if you're also insane.

 

[Bocefish]

His friend also said that Trayvon told her he was scared. When you're scared by someone following you, do you double back on them and confront them? Maybe, if you're also insane.

Or if you're full of adrenaline and testosterone trying to show how tough you are with your girlfriend on the phone. More ifs...

 

[Nordling]

His friend also said that Trayvon told her he was scared. When you're scared by someone following you, do you double back on them and confront them? Maybe, if you're also insane.

Or if you're full of adrenaline and testosterone trying to show how tough you are with your girlfriend on the phone. More ifs...

It's all ifs at this point...ifs based only on what we've heard second, third and fourth hand. Shoot, someone even brought up "jury nullification" tonight on a radio show (a caller). Legally, and of course in a theoretical scenario, if the jury decides that they want the defendant guilty or innocent, in spite of the evidence, they very well can. To some degree, OJ's murder trial is an example of this.

 

[Jupiter551]

His friend also said that Trayvon told her he was scared. When you're scared by someone following you, do you double back on them and confront them? Maybe, if you're also insane.

Or if you're full of adrenaline and testosterone trying to show how tough you are with your girlfriend on the phone. More ifs...

Yep, more ifs, but here's one big "if" - if Zimmerman's injuries as documented directly after the shooting with photographs, witnesses and paramedics don't substantiate his claims that he was beaten to near unconsciousness, then self defense is off the table and spur-of-the-moment shooting = murder 2. That's the kind of angle the prosecution is going to press. When Zimmerman appeared in court today it was noted he appeared to have no scarring. His nose didn't look broken even the same night. His brother's hysterical account of Trayvon almost beating him to death seems almost comical when you look at his injuries.

IMO he confronted Trayvon aggressively, attempted to detain him, they struggled, he shot Tray, realised he'd fucked up, got scared, made up a story about being attacked and exaggerated his injuries. Told a story he thought was consistent with what he believed about Trayvon - he was a scary black man up to no good! But from the moment they ID'd the body his story started to unravel.

 

[Bocefish]

Yep, we all have our theories. There are definitely a few things that don't add up with Zimmerman's statement and what his family has said. This is one murder trial I honestly wouldn't mind being a juror for. I just hope each side does their due diligence and this doesn't get thrown out due to some stupid technicality.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

I've gotten a few serious beat downs in my life.

In general, in one on one fistfight you gotta be a real sick pussy to pull a gun and kill the other guy.

Now, you get a dude Zim's age and build, getting an unarmed beat down by a 17 yr old (albeit large) kid and you shoot him in the chest and cry you were skeert of him...

Pussy.

You ran into that situation, in the dark, in the rain, after a kid. Obviously he wasn't very scared of him THEN.
But you suddenly find yourself on the painful end of a beat down and you suddenly are frighted. Mortally in fear.

:naughty:
Oh please.

He ran after that kid, not afraid because he was armed. Now if the kid did turn on him and beat the fuck out of him he was only "standing his ground" after all. You're getting chased in the dark in the rain by what appears to be an angry husky dude with an attitude, who has the right to wheel around and stand their ground?

Certainly not the idiot doing the chasing.

But back to being a total pussy....

You gotta be a real man to be in a push and punch scuffle with a teenager YOU chased down and then shoot em in the chest because all of a sudden you find yourself on the painful end of an ass whoopin.

Devoid of regard for human dignity and indifferent to human life.? I think the definition fits.
Since gutless pussy aint a crime.
:lol:

I've had my attitude adjusted more than once, and I never considered shooting them because I was afraid.
I was PISSED OFF. The worse I got beat down the more PISSED I got.
During and after, killing the unarmed attitude adjuster didn't cross my mind. I wasn't afraid for my life. I was pissed off.

So I have to ask myself what sort of pussy INJECTS themselves into a confrontation with a teenager and then shoots them out of fear when they get what they were looking for.....
A fight.

The more I think about it the more I think this asshole deserves the needle. :snooty:

 

[Bocefish]

Nice pointless rant. Did you ever get sucker punched, then get jumped on and have your head repeatedly slammed into the concrete by a complete stranger on a dark rainy night as a husband and father?

If the injuries don't support the story, then sobeit, but keep in mind this happened over a month ago.

 

[Nordling]

Nice pointless rant. Did you ever get sucker punched, then get jumped on and have your head repeatedly slammed into the concrete by a complete stranger on a dark rainy night as a husband and father?

If the injuries don't support the story, then sobeit, but keep in mind this happened over a month ago.

Uh huh.

Some guy is sitting ON you, and has beat you to where you're "almost unconscious" and somehow you get your fat pudgy arms around the butt of the guy sitting on you and casually reach into your waistband and de-holster a 9mm, and somehow get it into position to fire accurately into the guy's chest.

Gee, wish I'd been "almost unconscious" during some of my midterms.

 

[Bocefish]

That's right, I forgot you were there and there's only one possibly way things could have happened.

 

[Nordling]

That's right, I forgot you were there and there's only one possibly way things could have happened.

Practically infinite, if we discount everyone's story...but that scenario is the defendant's. I'm just calling BS on THAT one.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

Nice pointless rant. Did you ever get sucker punched, then get jumped on and have your head repeatedly slammed into the concrete by a complete stranger on a dark rainy night as a husband and father?

Yup. Not sure how "as a husband and father" factors into it but.... yup.
However, Zim didn't get jumped, or sucker punched. He was very aware of his surroundings and was the first aggressor. A confidently armed aggressor.

I was mugged once while I was carrying. I got punched, (nearly out) and an unarmed asshole demanded my money. When I stood up and he saw my holstered weapon, he ran off.

I didn't chase him down and kill him. I could have. I didn't. If he had taken my wallet I wouldn't have shot him over it. In Fla I guess I could have eh? Once he fled I was no longer in any danger, so to run after him would have been wrong, and reckless.

If he had been armed, I might have drawn and fired, thank god I didn't have to. If he had gotten my gun out of my holster, I have no idea what I would have done. I'd have probably done the prudent thing, immediately pissed my pants, gave him my money and made a quick prayer that he didn't blow my brains out.
or maybe I'd have tired to get my gun back... who knows.

Having been in that and a few other really close hairy situations, I can sit here and be a judgemental asshole and say Zim ran headlong INTO a situation he KNEW could very well end up with a dead teen.

He didn't consider he might get his ass kicked, the gun on his hip gave him a false sense of invincibility.

Plus, he was PISSED. He wasn't concerned for his neighborhood safety. He was mad, armed, and pumped up, and trying to be a hero. Normal reasonable people who sit and watch for people who are up to no good (neighborhood watch people) don't follow a suspect in a car, then run after them in the dark in the rain, after calling 911 and being told "we're on it, don't follow them".

For several reasons, but mainly for one good reason; YOU don't wanna be the ones the cops shoot down in the dark mistaking YOU for the suspect.

Good healthy fearful caution, the thing armed heroes often don't have.

Plus, I think in his mind he knew the SYG law would excuse him, as it has excused dozens of people for doing the same thing, or far worse.

Not a rant.... I get a little nauseated over days of politically correct dancing around this subject.
:lol:

 

[Bocefish]

I got punched, (nearly out) and an unarmed asshole demanded my money. When I stood up and he saw my holstered weapon, he ran off.

What if instead of letting you up, he decided to slam your head into the pavement repeatedly and just take your money and valuables after you were either unconscious or dead? I'd be willing to bet you would feel like you were in a life threatening circumstance and go for your weapon.

Nobody knows what really happened that night except Zimmerman. We can all inject ourselves into the infinite imagined scenarios, but the fact is we don't know how exactly it went down. I'm playing devil's advocate, so to speak, since everybody has deemed him guilty and I'm assuming he's innocent until proven guilty. I have my serious doubts about his story too.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

What if instead of letting you up, he decided to slam your head into the pavement repeatedly and just take your money and valuables after you were either unconscious or dead? I'd be willing to bet you would feel like you were in a life threatening circumstance and go for your weapon.

If I had my head smashed into the pavement until I was punch drunk, as zim states he was, and then, acted in self defense....
I can tell you from actually getting punched and having my head bounced off the sidewalk, one of two hits and you're in no real state of mind to draw and fire a squirt gun.

It doesn't take much to put a person into a punch drunk state, if he had his head slammed more than twice he was in shock and not able to fight back.

But holy miracles, with a broken nose (ever have a Broken nose from a punch? The pain itself is enough to make you pass out) AND a pavement slammed melon, he was still in enough control to get his gun, get to his feet and shoot the kid in the chest.

Because if he had shot him while treyvon was on top of him, his shirt would have been bloody and clearly, from the cop shop video, it wasn't.

Ignore what you see in the movies, if you get punched square in the nose, hard enough to break it for most grown men, you have stunned them for about 30-60 seconds where they aint gonna do jack shit but stand there and try to cope with the pain and confusion. IF this kid then jumped Zim and tried to beat his brains out, GOOD. He was standing his ground and had no expectation from anyone to run away.
By the book, that is.

For a spooked 17 yr old running from an angry adult in the dark, the pop in the nose would have given him a good minute or so to run like a rabbit.

I think Zim tried to subdue him and make an arrest, and he got his ass kicked. The shot the kid out of pure anger. Then cried self defense out of pure "I don't wanna go to jail" panic.

Maybe. Nobody really knows but the dead guy and the pussy.

 

[Bocefish]

Everybody is suddenly an expert and knows what happened, gotta love it. :lol: People feel and deal with pain in different ways. Just because there is no blood on Zim's shirt does not mean he didn't shoot while Tray was on top of him. That's what forensics are for, the angle and the distance will eventually be determined if a proper autopsy was done. If it was that easy to determine how the shooting took place, the officers would have called bullshit on the spot and arrested him.

 

[Nordling]

Everybody is suddenly an expert and knows what happened, gotta love it. :lol: People feel and deal with pain in different ways. Just because there is no blood on Zim's shirt does not mean he didn't shoot while Tray was on top of him. That's what forensics are for, the angle and the distance will eventually be determined if a proper autopsy was done. If it was that easy to determine how the shooting took place, the officers would have called bullshit on the spot and arrested him.

Have you forgotten? That's exactly what the main officer on the scene tried to do...but was vetoed by a late night state's attorney.

 

[Jupiter551]

He didn't consider he might get his ass kicked, the gun on his hip gave him a false sense of invincibility.

Plus, he was PISSED. He wasn't concerned for his neighborhood safety. He was mad, armed, and pumped up, and trying to be a hero. Normal reasonable people who sit and watch for people who are up to no good (neighborhood watch people) don't follow a suspect in a car, then run after them in the dark in the rain, after calling 911 and being told "we're on it, don't follow them".

For several reasons, but mainly for one good reason; YOU don't wanna be the ones the cops shoot down in the dark mistaking YOU for the suspect.

Good healthy fearful caution, the thing armed heroes often don't have.

Plus, I think in his mind he knew the SYG law would excuse him, as it has excused dozens of people for doing the same thing, or far worse.

Exactly. He wanted to be a hero - it isn't the first time either, in 2003 he apparently ran after and tackled some dude who stole a dvd player from a shop - he had a habit of wanting to be a hero. Hell, he wanted to be a cop, he applied, and was studying criminal justice.

He absolutely put himself in this situation - hell there wasn't even a situation at all until he created one.

Zero evidence points to his head being slammed into the concrete. Grass-stains on his back. Witness places them ON THE GRASS.

He got out of his car deciding after telling the dispatcher "these assholes always get away" and deciding this one wouldn't. "fucking punks" he says as he begins the chase. He was expecting trouble - he was determined Trayvon wasn't getting away. Determined enough to disregard police advice not to follow.

Trayvon, on the other hand, was distinctly headed in the other direction - away. Zimmerman *let's clear this point up* ZIMMERMAN says Trayvon is "running". Here things turn into solely Zimmerman's account because he's no longer talking to the police and surprise surprise, as soon as it's Zimmerman's account Trayvon turns into some kind of NINJA PSYCHO AMBUSHER!!!