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Trayvon Martin

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Paulie Walnuts said:
An attorney who can successfully defend a client is a success, if they are defending a saint or a demon.
[...]
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True, but if they don't, at best they return to the maze of obscurity, and in this case they get the added benefit of being despised by a huge chunk of the population PLUS they don't get paid.

Also, lawyers are not a homogenous group, they're capable of making very bad decisions, and in this case continuing with a flaky, and possibly non-paying client, would be beyond simply a bad decision.
 
Jupiter551 said:
lol at about 12 minutes some blonde woman just wanders into the background, from earlier zoomed out shots she wasn't anywhere around lol.
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file.php


Or is it Rod Stewart in disguise?
 
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George Zimmerman to be charged in Trayvon Martin shooting, official says

By Sari Horwitz, Wednesday, April 11, 12:56 PM

Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face.
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Angela Corey has scheduled a news conference at 1830 hrs CST this evening.
 
Nordling said:
The NYT reports the news conference will be at 6PM EDT.
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Yep, the earlier info came from CNN as a preliminary announcement.

6pm EDT has been confirmed by several sources.

I have no idea where they're going to find any impartial jurors... maybe the Amish or sequester some folks from Laos. :dontknow:
 
Bocefish said:
Nordling said:
The NYT reports the news conference will be at 6PM EDT.
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Yep, the earlier info came from CNN as a preliminary announcement.

6pm EDT has been confirmed by several sources.

I have no idea where they're going to find any impartial jurors... maybe the Amish or sequester some folks from Laos. :dontknow:
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Oh there's plenty of people who don't watch the news etc...how many millions of WoW players for example?
 
Jupiter551 said:
Holy shit
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/11/prosecutor-to-announce-decision-on-zimmerman/?hpt=hp_t1
Zimmerman charged with second-degree murder
George Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder in connection with the February 26 shooting of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin, a Florida state attorney announced Wednesday.
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That surprises me, I expected man slaughter. The second degree murder is going to be a lot more difficult to prove.
 
Shaun__ said:
Jupiter551 said:
Holy shit
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/11/prosecutor-to-announce-decision-on-zimmerman/?hpt=hp_t1
Zimmerman charged with second-degree murder
George Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder in connection with the February 26 shooting of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin, a Florida state attorney announced Wednesday.
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That surprises me, I expected man slaughter. The second degree murder is going to be a lot more difficult to prove.
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yeah me too, maybe they're leaving some room for a plea bargain down to MS, or maybe they have forensics that contradict him
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2012/04/11/sot-corey-zimmerman-murder-charge.cnn
 
Could be that Zimmerman's idiotic phone call to the prosecutor created some self-incriminating statements...which is why lawyers advise clients to NEVER talk to the prosecution.

An offhanded possible prediction: Sean Hannity will be subpoenaed for the idiotic phone call that he allegedly had with Zimmerman.
 
2nd degree... I am impressed.
and he surrendered himself.

I still kinda think without the media pressure, this would have just blown over even though she said media and public pressure had nothing to do with it.

I didn't expect 2nd degree or for him to come in quietly. He could have at least tried to flee to Peru just to carry the media circus over until Monday.

Inconsiderate bastard.
:lol:
 
She had this charge in mind a week ago, so Zimmerman's latest flake had nothing to do with it. Unless she has some 'smoking gun' type evidence we don't know about, Murder2 will be nearly impossible to prove given what we know now. That charge does allow the jury some wiggle room, however. The jury can say not guilty of Murder2, but still convict on a lesser manslaughter charge. Prosecutors aren't supposed to do that, but they do.

Due to Florida's 'Sunshine Law' the trial will be televised too. Should be interesting.
 
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Paulie Walnuts said:
2nd degree... I am impressed.
and he surrendered himself.

I still kinda think without the media pressure, this would have just blown over even though she said media and public pressure had nothing to do with it.
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Yeah I also think if there hadn't been media and public pressure, he wouldn't have been charged - but I also think they wouldn't have charged him (now) if they didn't believe he's guilty. They must be fairly sure it wasn't completely self-defense, and that they can prove it, because if he gets off the prosecution looks even dumber than ever.
 
Now I'm curious to see if they have additional evidence that the public is unaware of, because I figured manslaughter would be the most severe charge he would see. That's the first time I've agreed with anything Al Sharpton has said.
 
I'm glad the Martin family will finally see this tragedy go to the courts. I think they would be far better off with another lawyer though, that Crump guy doesn't strike me as one of the sharpest tools in the shed.
 
Bocefish said:
She had this charge in mind a week ago, so Zimmerman's latest flake had nothing to do with it. Unless she has some 'smoking gun' type evidence we don't know about, Murder2 will be nearly impossible to prove given what we know now. That charge does allow the jury some wiggle room, however. The jury can say not guilty of Murder2, but still convict on a lesser manslaughter charge. Prosecutors aren't supposed to do that, but they do.

Due to Florida's 'Sunshine Law' the trial will be televised too. Should be interesting.
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Well, I'm sure she had all kinds of things in mind. I just hope the judge isn't judge Ito or similar. I'd hate to see a trial go on endlessly.
 
Jupiter551 said:
his beard/stubble never changes length, even when he gets fatter/thinner/wears a suit lol

It seems weird to me that he wouldn't re-engage the same attorneys who have been representing him for weeks

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2012/04/12/ac-george-zimmerman-second-degree-murder.cnn Couple interesting legal opinions on why they might do 2nd degree. I agree with the old bugger who says it's to get him to plead down
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The other option is that charging him in the first place is a political stunt to placate the Mob. The Special Prosecutor didn't take this to the Grand Jury, probably because the Grand Jury wouldn't indict Zimmerman, and the Grand Jury requires less evidence to render an indictment than the Trial Jury requires to render a guilty verdict.
 
Harvrath said:
The other option is that charging him in the first place is a political stunt to placate the Mob. The Special Prosecutor didn't take this to the Grand Jury, probably because the Grand Jury wouldn't indict Zimmerman, and the Grand Jury requires less evidence to render an indictment than the Trial Jury requires to render a guilty verdict.
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That would be a really stupid, and probably career-negative stunt to pull. If it were the case they definitely wouldn't be a murder 2 charge.

As one legal analyst said; Corey has a history of not using Grand Juries when they aren't necessary, and the only thing they would be necessary for here is a murder 1 charge (which requires proof of pre-meditation to convict).

Prosecutors are cagey, and usually ambitious (esp. ones who get selected for cases like this) and don't take cases to trial that they don't think they can prove. She stated outright that she has disputed SYG defenses before, and that if Zimmerman claimed an SYG defense, she would dispute it in this case.
 
The reasoning behind the charge of Murder in the 2nd was probably for political & strategic reasons both. She (the prosecutor) really has nothing to lose going for the highest reasonable charge possible in this case. I think we can all pretty much agree, given what we know now, that Zimmerman will not be found guilty of murder2 IF it even goes to trial.

Murder2 requires proving depravity of mind:

DEPRAVITY OF MIND
The condition of mind described as depravity of mind is characterized by an inherent deficiency of moral sense and integrity. It consists of evil, corrupt and perverted intent which is devoid of regard for human dignity and which is indifferent to human life. It is a state of mind outrageously horrible or inhuman. http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d093.htm

The state attorney said that the decision didn’t take a long time, despite it more than 40 days since the original crime was committed.

“It didn’t take long,” Corey said. “Remember, the prosecutor’s burden is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. We have numerous homicides where immediate arrests are not made. We have to have a reasonable certainty for conviction before we file charges.”

Under Florida law, second degree murder is the unlawful killing of a person when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual. The maximum sentence for the crime is life in prison.

Corey said the decision to charge Zimmerman was made last week.
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http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/11/report-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-shooting-wednesday-afternoon/

The judge assigned to the case, as of now, is Judge Jessica J. Recksiedler who is a relatively new judge in her early 40s.
 
Bocefish said:
The reasoning behind the charge of Murder in the 2nd was probably for political & strategic reasons both. She (the prosecutor) really has nothing to lose going for the highest reasonable charge possible in this case.
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“Remember, the prosecutor’s burden is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.”
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So she claims she has proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In one of the CNN links above a legal analyst (an attorney) comments that mental depravity isn't necessarily that difficult to prove - that it's basically self-evident if a) the killing wasn't deemed self-defense and b) Zimmerman's actions were reasonably expected to cause serious injury or death (ie, a point-blank gunshot to the chest)

In essence if she can prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman wasn't defending himself, then he knowingly committed an act likely to kill Trayvon, and that's murder.
 
It's murder regardless of the charges. The key is whether it was justified or to what degree it wasn't. If the prosecution proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self-defense, it still has the burden to prove depravity of mind for murder2.

Jupiter551 said:
mental depravity isn't necessarily that difficult to prove - that it's basically self-evident if a) the killing wasn't deemed self-defense and b) Zimmerman's actions were reasonably expected to cause serious injury or death (ie, a point-blank gunshot to the chest)
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Under your basically self-evident assumption, why are there 3rd degree murder charges and different types of manslaughter charges in the books? Wouldn't all homicides with a deadly weapon involved not deemed self-defense then fall under mental depravity if it's consequences were reasonably expected to cause serious injury or death?
 
Bocefish said:
It's murder regardless of the charges. The key is whether it was justified or to what degree it wasn't. If the prosecution proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self-defense, it still has the burden to prove depravity of mind for murder2.

Jupiter551 said:
mental depravity isn't necessarily that difficult to prove - that it's basically self-evident if a) the killing wasn't deemed self-defense and b) Zimmerman's actions were reasonably expected to cause serious injury or death (ie, a point-blank gunshot to the chest)
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Under your basically self-evident assumption, why are there 3rd degree murder charges and different types of manslaughter charges in the books? Wouldn't all homicides with a deadly weapon involved not deemed self-defense then fall under mental depravity if it's consequences were reasonably expected to cause serious injury or death?
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I'm sure that terms like "depravity" or "evil" have far different meanings than if philosophers were the ones who tried murder cases. Outside of the legal system, such terms could be argued endlessly and no one would ever be convicted of anything--such terms simply are lacking concrete meanings outside of law. Inside of the legal system, I'd guess that such terms are used in specific ways that would only make philosophers shake their heads.

As one lawyer I was listening to yesterday called it, Murder 1 = premeditated (Zimmerman would have to have been hiding in the bushes with the intent to kill or similar scenarios), Murder 2 = crime of passion (you find your wife in bed with another man and blow them both away in rage) Manslaughter = Oops!

Basically, Murder 2 means Zimmerman meant to fire the weapon into Trayvon but didn't plan ahead before the incident began.
 
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Here's the exact Fla. statute:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/ind ... 82.04.html

I could see the charge of murder2 if there was not a perceived deadly, physical assault going on at the time the weapon was discharged. Murder2 will be nearly impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt given what we know as of now.

There has to be more evidence than what we are aware of, or the Judge will toss the case before it even gets to a jury.
 
Bocefish said:
It's murder regardless of the charges. The key is whether it was justified or to what degree it wasn't. If the prosecution proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self-defense, it still has the burden to prove depravity of mind for murder2.

Jupiter551 said:
mental depravity isn't necessarily that difficult to prove - that it's basically self-evident if a) the killing wasn't deemed self-defense and b) Zimmerman's actions were reasonably expected to cause serious injury or death (ie, a point-blank gunshot to the chest)
Click to expand...

Under your basically self-evident assumption, why are there 3rd degree murder charges and different types of manslaughter charges in the books? Wouldn't all homicides with a deadly weapon involved not deemed self-defense then fall under mental depravity if it's consequences were reasonably expected to cause serious injury or death?
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mitigating circumstance/an act of negligence rather than intent/temporary insanity/pre-meditation - there are a number of distinctions that can change the "severity" of a homocide charge. Most of them hinge on intent, and because we can't read minds, usually that intent is determined through evidence, testimony and what a reasonable person would believe.

From what I've seen, manslaughter is usually reserved for instances where a person is accidentally killed but the killer did something negligent or otherwise instrumental to allow the accident to occur. For instance, drink driving. Building a deadfall trap full of spikes cos you thought it was fun then some random dude walking into it. A loaded gun going off during a fight (note that as far as we've heard George has stated that he drew the gun and shot). That's quite different than acting with an intent to kill.

As for new evidence - they haven't released forensic evidence, and it may well show that George lied about his version of events.
 
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d093.htm
The condition of mind described as depravity of mind is characterized by an inherent deficiency of moral sense and integrity. It consists of evil, corrupt and perverted intent which is devoid of regard for human dignity and which is indifferent to human life. It is a state of mind outrageously horrible or inhuman.
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That's the most serious part of that criteria, and shooting into someone's chest, deliberately, when you didn't NEED to clearly displays indifference to human life.

In fact shooting anyone for any reason other than being in fear for your life probably displays depravity of mind.

Just because the term and its description uses words like "evil, corrupt and perverted intent", it doesn't need to be quite that theatrical. It isn't necessary to prove he "muahahaha'd" while stroking a cat afterwards etc.


Bocefish said:
I could see the charge of murder2 if there was not a perceived deadly, physical assault going on at the time the weapon was discharged. Murder2 will be nearly impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt given what we know as of now..
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Wait, what do we know now? Some contradictory witness evidence, nothing about the forensics, and George Zimmerman's story. As far as what the forensics and the witnesses as interviewed by the police, and (possibly) Trayvon's girlfriend's testimony we don't know anything. We just speculate.
 
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