Trayvon Martin

[Harvrath]

http://tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/main

http://tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_120

Incident date: Feb. 29, 2008

Location: Public street in shooter's neighborhood, Bay Hills Circle in Thonotosassa, Hillsborough County

What happened: Charles Podany, 49, saw a man speeding through his neighborhood. He grabbed his gun and rode his bike down the street to write down a license number and was confronted by Casey Landes, a 24-year-old who had been a passenger in the truck. The encounter turned deadly when a drunken Landes began beating Podany. The driver testified that his friend was beating up Podany in a one-sided fight before Podany shot him in the head with a .40-caliber handgun. "The guy was scared, man" the witness, Evin Aguayo, said. Although Landes was unarmed, Podany was smaller than his attacker.

The outcome: Prosecutors filed manslaughter charges against Podany, but a Hillsborough County judge later granted him immunity and dismissed the charge.

Fatalities: 1

Weapon: gun

Investigating agency: Hillsborough County Sheriff

Guy tries to do the right thing for his neighborhood. Drunk asshole who was passenger in the vehicle takes offense and starts beating the Good Guy. Good guy draws his gun and turns the SOB's head into a canoe. Prosecutor puts him on Manslaughter Charges, Judge tells the Prosecutor to go get his shinebox and grants the Good Guy Immunity and thus the case is dismissed.

 

[Harvrath]

Another interesting SYG case in Florida from that same link.

Incident date: March 29, 2008

Location: Hot Shotz Bar in New Port Richey, Pasco County

What happened: Max Wesley Horn Jr., 47, shot and killed Joseph Martell, 34, after an argument outside a bar during the annual Chasco Fiesta in New Port Richey. Martell had exchanged words with friends of Horn's during the day, and they encountered each other later that night when Martell emerged from Hot Shotz and, according to Horn, threatened his sister-in-law. Horn lifted his shirt to show a gun in his waistband and said he would shoot Martell, who was dragged away to another bar. He returned shortly. Witnesses gave differering accounts of what happened next. Some say Martell punched Horn. Others didn't see a punch. Horn fired at Martell six times until the gun jammed.

The outcome: Horn was charged with second-degree murder. He claimed immunity under the stand your ground statute, but a judge denied that claim. He went to trial and was acquitted.

Fatalities: 1

Weapon: gun

 

[Jupiter551]

As for provoking the confrontation - we KNOW Zimmerman did because if he hadn't followed Trayvon (when told not to by the officer) the confrontation would never have occurred and Tray would have been at home watching the game by the time police arrived. Instead, he's dead.

You KNOW he provoked the confrontation because he didn't listen to a dispatcher (who is not a law enforcement officer) that said "We don't need you to do that."?

You really think that kind of logic will hold up well in a court of law?

It goes to establishing his state of mind. He wasn't an innocent little bunny skipping through the meadow who was suddenly attacked. He was an armed man who ignored police instructions NOT to follow someone (who had done nothing) with the intent of not allowing him to escape.

And as I said before - if he hadn't been armed, if he hadn't been a vigilante, if he HAD followed police advice no one would be dead. So yeah you're damn right he caused it. Regardless of what happened in the laneway, George Zimmerman caused this entire incident, and his comments to the dispatcher make it clear he'd decided Trayvon's "guilt" before he even left his car.

 

[Jupiter551]

Another interesting SYG case in Florida from that same link.

Incident date: March 29, 2008

Location: Hot Shotz Bar in New Port Richey, Pasco County

What happened: Max Wesley Horn Jr., 47, shot and killed Joseph Martell, 34, after an argument outside a bar during the annual Chasco Fiesta in New Port Richey. Martell had exchanged words with friends of Horn's during the day, and they encountered each other later that night when Martell emerged from Hot Shotz and, according to Horn, threatened his sister-in-law. Horn lifted his shirt to show a gun in his waistband and said he would shoot Martell, who was dragged away to another bar. He returned shortly. Witnesses gave differering accounts of what happened next. Some say Martell punched Horn. Others didn't see a punch. Horn fired at Martell six times until the gun jammed.

The outcome: Horn was charged with second-degree murder. He claimed immunity under the stand your ground statute, but a judge denied that claim. He went to trial and was acquitted.

Fatalities: 1


Weapon: gun

Yeah, the state attorney has already gone on record saying that she's prosecuted a number of SYG cases - some where she still believes the shooter shouldn't have shot - and that sometimes they get through and sometimes they don't. She also said the law needs to be reviewed, a lot of people say that, and that just because a case might be dismissed under SYG is no reason to not try to prosecute it if they feel the evidence shows it wasn't self-defense.

For people who actually want to keep the SYG law (I think the fact that it allows murders to go unpunished outweighs its civil defense benefit personally), you should probably realise that the law MIGHT survive if Zimmerman is convicted, but if Zimmerman walks on SYG the law is history - nothing in your country could save that law if Zimmerman walks.

 

[Nordling]

It also seems to me that SYG is too easily applied unevenly. Read about John McNeil, who's in prison for life in a case that seems like a classic "proper example" of SYG but the court disagreed:

http://raniakhalek.com/

 

[Jupiter551]

Hey the judge is kinda hot...

 

[Bocefish]

He was an armed man who ignored police instructions NOT to follow someone (who had done nothing) with the intent of not allowing him to escape.

No matter how many times you say he ignored POLICE instructions, does not make it true. The dispatcher has no police powers whatsover!

At what point does this unredacted audio show that Zimmerman was chasing after him with the intent of not allowing him to escape?



The tape shows the opposite of chasing him. At about the 2:24 mark, you can hear the dispatcher ask “are you following him?” Zimmerman replies yes, and the dispatcher says “okay, we don’t need you to do that.” He replies ”okay.” A few seconds later, the noise in the background (possibly caused by wind or motion) stops and you can hear Zimmerman’s voice sound less breathless. He says “he ran.” When the dispatcher asks him for his personal information, you can tell he's not in hot pursuit of anything and calmly giving the dispatcher the requested info.

 

[Bocefish]

The guy on top was wearing a white shirt.

 

[Bocefish]

Hey the judge is kinda hot...

She is kinda hot, but it sounds like she's going to have to recuse herself. I didn't get the whole story, but it was something like her husband was approached by the Zimmerman family for representation at one point or another. Something along those lines anyway. I hope she stays on though.

 

[sorrowfool]

He was an armed man who ignored police instructions NOT to follow someone (who had done nothing) with the intent of not allowing him to escape.

No matter how many times you say he ignored POLICE instructions, does not make it true. The dispatcher has no police powers whatsover!

At what point does this unredacted audio show that Zimmerman was chasing after him with the intent of not allowing him to escape?



The tape shows the opposite of chasing him. At about the 2:24 mark, you can hear the dispatcher ask “are you following him?” Zimmerman replies yes, and the dispatcher says “okay, we don’t need you to do that.” He replies ”okay.” A few seconds later, the noise in the background (possibly caused by wind or motion) stops and you can hear Zimmerman’s voice sound less breathless. He says “he ran.” When the dispatcher asks him for his personal information, you can tell he's not in hot pursuit of anything and calmly giving the dispatcher the requested info.

If he stopped chasing Trayvon how did the confrontation even happen? He says "he ran," which I assume means he ran away. Trayvon is running away from him, he isn't chasing Trayvon... how do they meet for an altercation?

 

[Jupiter551]

He was an armed man who ignored police instructions NOT to follow someone (who had done nothing) with the intent of not allowing him to escape.

No matter how many times you say he ignored POLICE instructions, does not make it true. The dispatcher has no police powers whatsover!

At what point does this unredacted audio show that Zimmerman was chasing after him with the intent of not allowing him to escape?

The tape shows the opposite of chasing him. At about the 2:24 mark, you can hear the dispatcher ask “are you following him?” Zimmerman replies yes, and the dispatcher says “okay, we don’t need you to do that.” He replies ”okay.” A few seconds later, the noise in the background (possibly caused by wind or motion) stops and you can hear Zimmerman’s voice sound less breathless. He says “he ran.” When the dispatcher asks him for his personal information, you can tell he's not in hot pursuit of anything and calmly giving the dispatcher the requested info.

Zimmerman said a minute or two earlier "these assholes always get away". He also started following directly after he says "shit, he's running". The dispatcher pointedly asks "are you following him?" and then politely tells him not to.

The dispatcher doesn't need to be a police officer, he's in constant communication with the police en route and is employed to instruct the public on what to do in police emergencies. He may not be a police officer but his instructions are on the behalf of the PD.

As for Zimmerman stopping, and saying "he ran", he must have continued following after the dispatch call ended to get to the "ambush site", well unless Trayvon used some ninja trick to vanish into thin air right in front of Zimmerman.

Oh and btw who was wearing a white t-shirt? Trayvon wasn't, he was wearing a white hoodie (scratch that, media reports say the hoodie was gray)which is a little different. Oh and Zimmerman was wearing a gray t-shirt under his jacket - maybe he had that off?Gray t-shirt, gray hoodie, hmm, I wonder which one is more like a white t-shirt?

White t-shirt is hardly a freakin hoodie, and she couldn't tell the race so hell, she didn't really see anything very conclusive did she? She also said she saw that and then called 911, she didn't say whether it was before or after the shot but I didn't hear it on the tape and unless it happened while the phone was ringing...

 

[Jupiter551]

If he stopped chasing Trayvon how did the confrontation even happen? He says "he ran," which I assume means he ran away. Trayvon is running away from him, he isn't chasing Trayvon... how do they meet for an altercation?

Well, obviously Tray threw down a smoke bomb, vanished, waited for the phone call to end then did the old "punch in the nose from behind" ambush move.

 

[Bocefish]

Gotta love the fact spinning going on :lol:

Towards the end of the conversation with the operator who has no police powers, you can hear Zim say "Ah crap, I don’t know want to give it all out. I don’t know where this kid is."

If he stopped chasing Trayvon how did the confrontation even happen? He says "he ran," which I assume means he ran away. Trayvon is running away from him, he isn't chasing Trayvon... how do they meet for an altercation?

Gee, maybe, just maybe it actually happened like Zim said, he got out of his vehicle to look for an address.

 

[sorrowfool]

If he stopped chasing Trayvon how did the confrontation even happen? He says "he ran," which I assume means he ran away. Trayvon is running away from him, he isn't chasing Trayvon... how do they meet for an altercation?

Well, obviously Tray threw down a smoke bomb, vanished, waited for the phone call to end then did the old "punch in the nose from behind" ambush move.

I was gonna say it was more of a Nightcrawler *BAMF* type teleportation thing.

 

[sorrowfool]

Gotta love the fact spinning going on :lol:

Towards the end of the conversation with the operator who has no police powers, you can hear Zim say "Ah crap, I don’t know want to give it all out. I don’t know where this kid is."

If he stopped chasing Trayvon how did the confrontation even happen? He says "he ran," which I assume means he ran away. Trayvon is running away from him, he isn't chasing Trayvon... how do they meet for an altercation?

Gee, maybe, just maybe it actually happened like Zim said, he got out of his vehicle to look for an address.

That still doesn't put them together. That still implies that Trayvon at some point stopped running and went back to confront Zimmerman.

What makes more sense, that Zimmerman kept on the pursuit after he hung up, or that Trayvon all of a sudden decided to run towards what he had just been running from? And why?

 

[Bocefish]

Gotta love the fact spinning going on :lol:

Towards the end of the conversation with the operator who has no police powers, you can hear Zim say "Ah crap, I don’t know want to give it all out. I don’t know where this kid is."

If he stopped chasing Trayvon how did the confrontation even happen? He says "he ran," which I assume means he ran away. Trayvon is running away from him, he isn't chasing Trayvon... how do they meet for an altercation?

Gee, maybe, just maybe it actually happened like Zim said, he got out of his vehicle to look for an address.

That still doesn't put them together. That still implies that Trayvon at some point stopped running and went back to confront Zimmerman.

What makes more sense, that Zimmerman kept on the pursuit after he hung up, or that Trayvon all of a sudden decided to run towards what he had just been running from? And why?

None of it makes much sense, but nobody knows for a fact how the actual meeting/confrontation occurred except Zimmerman or maybe a possible eye witness we don't know about.

 

[Jupiter551]

Gee, maybe, just maybe it actually happened like Zim said, he got out of his vehicle to look for an address.

Wha? Which address? He was on his own street lol. Do you mean a street number? He went into a back alley to look for a street number? Wouldn't it have been easier to find a street number from inside his car with the headlights on?

 

[Bocefish]

Gee, maybe, just maybe it actually happened like Zim said, he got out of his vehicle to look for an address.

Wha? Which address? He was on his own street lol. Do you mean a street number? He went into a back alley to look for a street number? Wouldn't it have been easier to find a street number from inside his car with the headlights on?

If you listen to the tape, the operator asks him for an address, but you can listen for yourself what he says.

 

[Jupiter551]

None of it makes much sense, but nobody knows for a fact how the actual meeting/confrontation occurred except Zimmerman or maybe a possible eye witness we don't know about.

That's true, but you can't take Zimmerman at his word because he KILLED the only other definite eyewitness and has a very clear interest in making sure it comes across as self-defense LOL

If you listen to the tape, the operator asks him for an address, but you can listen for yourself what he says.

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.

Then he asks Z for an address, and he says he's near his truck, which is a considerable way away from where the shooting took place. There's no way he was wandering through a back-alley almost a block away looking for a street number, and there's also no way he made it all that way from his truck to near the shooting area in the short time he claims he was following.

 

[Bocefish]

Gee, maybe, just maybe it actually happened like Zim said, he got out of his vehicle to look for an address.

Wha? Which address? He was on his own street lol. Do you mean a street number? He went into a back alley to look for a street number? Wouldn't it have been easier to find a street number from inside his car with the headlights on?

go to the 3:20 mark on the tape

 

[Jupiter551]

Gee, maybe, just maybe it actually happened like Zim said, he got out of his vehicle to look for an address.

Wha? Which address? He was on his own street lol. Do you mean a street number? He went into a back alley to look for a street number? Wouldn't it have been easier to find a street number from inside his car with the headlights on?

go to the 3:20 mark on the tape

Yeah I heard that bit but from where he got out of his truck, and you claim he stops following to give his name, he'd have to be Carl fucking Lewis to get to anywhere near the shooting site. They actually end up closer to Trayvon's destination than Zimmerman's truck.

 

[Bocefish]

You can obviously hear on the audio recording that he stops following Tray because all the wind and heavy breathing stops. From the end of the tape, it's all just speculation on our part what happens from there on out. The experts will determine time lines and factor in all the rest of the stuff we don't know about.

 

[Anonymous]

He doesn't have to be proven guilty, he confessed. He's guilty.

They just have to decide to what degree of what charge he is guilty.

This.

Anyone who argues with the above statement clearly has no respect for Trayvon's family.

I think that a few of you in this thread just like to argue.....

 

[Shaun__]

I think that a few of you in this thread just like to argue.....

No I don't!

 

[sorrowfool]

You can obviously hear on the audio recording that he stops following Tray because all the wind and heavy breathing stops. From the end of the tape, it's all just speculation on our part what happens from there on out. The experts will determine time lines and factor in all the rest of the stuff we don't know about.

It's not speculation where they ended up... which is no where near Zimmerman's truck. Which is on a direct path to Trayvon's destination.

How far did he have to go to get an address... and what a coincidence he ended directly in Trayvon's path.

 

[Bocefish]

Short 2 minute video update about the judge and key aspect to the case...

http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video ... D=23612132

 

[Jupiter551]

If Zimmerman walks simply because Tray Martin is dead and isn't there to refute his claim that the seemingly mild-mannered teen was beating the older, armed man to death then I believe the political fallout will be such that SYG will be repealed and Zimmerman himself would be wise to head from jail directly to the airport, time to look up those Peruvian relatives.

The stupidity of this law is such that if a black teen walking down the street in a hoodie saw Zimmerman walking towards them they could apparently shoot him dead and claim they were in fear for their life, and be immune from prosecution. Nowhere else in the world is there such a giant loophole for legal murder, congratulations land of the free.

 

[Harvrath]

If Zimmerman walks simply because Tray Martin is dead and isn't there to refute his claim that the seemingly mild-mannered teen was beating the older, armed man to death then I believe the political fallout will be such that SYG will be repealed and Zimmerman himself would be wise to head from jail directly to the airport, time to look up those Peruvian relatives.

The stupidity of this law is such that if a black teen walking down the street in a hoodie saw Zimmerman walking towards them they could apparently shoot him dead and claim they were in fear for their life, and be immune from prosecution. Nowhere else in the world is there such a giant loophole for legal murder, congratulations land of the free.

if Zimmerman walks it is because one of two things; the Judge dismisses the case on the preponderance of evidence that Zimmerman was justified and thus immune from prosecution or the Jury acquits him because the Prosecutor did not meet the burden of proof.

The law was written because there were more clear cut cases of Self-Defense that went to trial. Even with acquittal, the damage done to the individual is severe; lawyer bills, public record of trial for serious charges, public maligning and crap like that. Never mind the waste of time a trial that leads to an acquittal represents.

SYG, specifically the Immunity from Prosecution and Civil Liability, was written to protect victims from malicious prosecution and civil suit. If the Judge dismisses the case on the preponderance of the evidence that Zimmerman was justified, how the hell is a Prosecutor supposed to get a conviction where the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt? If an individual is attacked by an individual and is justified in their use of lethal force, why should he face any civil liability?

And as for your contention that anyone can claim 'Reasonable Fear' and walk away, look up the McNeil case.

 

[Jupiter551]

If an individual is attacked by an individual and is justified in their use of lethal force, why should he face any civil liability?

Conversely, when there is a situation with two people, one of whom is dead, no witnesses, no major injuries and only the killer's story that it was self-defense - why should someone get away with cold-blooded murder? Why are the rights of someone to defend themselves considered less than the rights of families of victims who get to see their loved one's killer walk free and clear?

Surely even you can't argue that this law has effectively, certainly allowed people to get away with murder? It's one thing to be in favour of SYG when it's applied perfectly - when every shooter really was in danger or fear for their lives, but in application it's massively open to abuse, and in our society even murder itself is less serious than the fact of getting away with murder.

That's what I don't get - the demographic (white republican gun-owners) who are usually in favour of the harshest penalties for criminals, and capital punishment for murderers hypocritically appear to be in favour of a law that allows murderers to walk away from their crime laughing.

 

[Bocefish]

Conversely, when there is a situation with two people, one of whom is dead, no witnesses, no major injuries and only the killer's story that it was self-defense - why should someone get away with cold-blooded murder?

Defending yourself is not a crime! The SYG law just removes the victim's duty to retreat. To what degree should you allow an unknown assailant to beat you to death before you can defend yourself and shoot the perpetrator? You don't know if their intent is just to incapacitate you or end your life.

It's a basically good law. Both sides of the political spectrum are assigning special task forces to review the law. It will NOT get repealed, at most it will be modified.