Thank you George, I am walking away and if I do go to cam sites again will not come off that platform, when we first came off the platform I told her that we lived a long way from each other and that I knew nothing could ever become of us being friends, and also stated that cam models are there to make money, fair enough but don't treat me like a complete idiot by doing nothing for me then expecting money for her rent, student fees etc.. think the simple way is to go back to watching porn, now that most of the cam models on here have took the fantasy away and made cam modelling into a mundane boring job, it has put me off especially when some of them don't know all of the facts and I caught this model out and called her out on it, and I would not call someone a liar or scammer had I not had all the facts, this model had changed her name well over ten times and had been banned twice from chaturbate, all the best George and good luck to you.Not sure what cam site this started on, but unless it's one that allows sharing other social media, seems daring of her to quickly be offering to do privates offsite and take payments offsite. I'm assuming that she made these offers to you on some other platform. Even a scamming model knows to be careful about the sites.
You were not friends. I've been there. It took me awhile to realize that we weren't friends. In my case, it was an act that she performed for money, she had a lot of practice at it in the studio for years, and it was second-nature to her.
I got requests to help with these expenses all the time. The list over the course of more than a year included rent, medical tests, medicines, her car loan, cat vet expenses, winter boots, god I've forgetting but there are many more. lol Even helping her mother. She used to talk about how she had to help support her mother, who worked for a low salary, and how she was so glad to help her mother get dental work, fix her apartment, and other noble good deeds for mom.
Some of these were probably real expenses, some were fake, some were real but exaggerated. Oh, also yeah she even asked for help paying for driving lessons and license. Later I learned that the cost for the driving lessons was half of what she was saying, and the exam was free - not a separate charge. I could go on an on with details but you get the point. And when I started pushing back (very quickly), I saw a different side of her. I even learned much later, by coincidence, that she did this to someone else, starting on a different site, but a lot of the same expenses. But then she had a dog in addition to her cat, and she needed help to pay vet bills for the dog. And new medical bills, and still the car loan. Same tactics. "Oh, dear, I am hesitant to ask but it would mean so much to me, I am really so worried that I am falling short this month, it has been slow on the sites, I don't have enough for the cost of the exams and the surgical procedure."
Like I said, some of these were real (I believe). Life costs money and making a living isn't easy in Russia. But when you realize that other "friends" or "boyfriends" the model has on the sites are getting told the same thing, and she is probably doing much better financially than she's saying, you have to accept reality. This is an integral part of how she makes money.
HA! I forget she also wanted a new iPhone.
This is classic. I went through this. When I began to push back about sending money, or questioned things, or pointed out discrepancies, or eventually began to refuse - same things happened. First, she started by being passive-aggressive. Withholding the kind of affection she previously expressed in our chats, distancing, making little sarcastic remarks. over time, the more I resisted giving money or questioned what was really going on, she got more aggressive about it. I started to see a different side of her. Outright aggressively demanding money or presents. And gaslighting! All kinds of twisted arguments for why I should help her.
Been there!! Once I got to that point with questioning and eventually accusing, we got into huge arguments. Sometimes on a site, in a chat. Sometimes in communication offsite. Oh how the memories are returning.
A difference though, in your situation she was just saying you all were friends and she needed your help. In my situation, it went from friends (first couple of months) to her talking about romantic interest, and then to her outright saying that she wanted us to be in a relationship, to meet in real life, plans for traveling were being discussed, she was writing love letters taking about having a future. Classic love scamming. She also took some bold steps to convince me, sharing some personal information that turned out to be true, but it still was just to make me have more trust.
This at first made me wonder, because the model I was involved with often said things like, "You really offended me, now, the price you must pay for my forgiveness is: I want a sheepskin coat." many other similar remarks, like after an argument, "you know the price to make me overlook your rudeness." Looking back, I can't believe how long I played around in games with this woman. She herself must have thought with delight about how there are some very stupid men on the internet.
You should feel lucky but her only responding to paypal money requests is just more of the manipulation, and outright con.
I'm not going to say what everyone else says about how, if you are asking, you already know. Because from my experience, yeah, you kind of know you are being scammed but you are not sure. Not necessarily from the beginning. Not because we are idiots (though that is a part of it), but because, human nature and the skill of the scammer is how these scams are able to work. most normal people do not expect another person will lie so overtly and convincingly, tell us about how much they value our friendship, or say they have such adoration and want to pursue a relationship and so on - but really they are laughing with friends in the studio about the pay pigs and really dumb guys they are conning, going home to the boyfriend and enjoying the money they are getting from this "job," and having no remorse or ethics about any of it. Most cam models are not doing this, most people in general don't. that's why people are always like, "Wow, that's fucking amazing, that person was willing to do all that for a long time, to get money." Like any kind of love scams or confidence schemes, not only in the world of camming.
But to answer the question: You don't like her. You like the person you imagined. You would not like her in truth, because once you realized and accepted that she has no concern for you at all, and just wants money, what is there to like? Yeah, walk away fast.
You're stating the obvious, but I understand. Talking to yourself and other people about this helps accept what was really going on.
If you have to pay someone for communication, attention, affection - they are not your friend. Good luck.
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She just wanted my money she stopped giving me attention while I carried on giving her money, I am going to go back to watching porn one thing I do agree on not everyone is a scammer, but I have proved this one is, can't put it on here as I would identify her through doing so, and I am gullible when it comes to women honestly ha ha, thanks for being so candid.
KingMarti
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That's exactly what it is. If you are not paying us then we are not working and therefore not indulging your / anyone's fantasy, I dont understand why the expectation would be anything different tbh.
Thank you all for your feedback, have actually proved to myself she is a liar and scammer, and have walked away, I am a realist and know that cam girls are there to make money from us, although coming off the site she wanted to be best friends and told me she was there for me when I felt lonely, I am gullible with women lessons learnt had my fingers burnt.
Not every cam model dislikes their job. In fact, most of us enjoy what we do. However, you can love your job and still not want to do it for free. Porn is also fantasy. Again, people who create adult content can (and do) enjoy their jobs, but it doesn’t mean that we would still do it if it wasn’t for the money.
Also, not every model behaves like the cam model you experienced. If you still want to enjoy cam sites, maybe visit independent models instead of studio models. And if something seems to good to be true (being actual “friends with benefits” with a sexy online lady, which I actually really don’t even get what the means, haha), it more than likely isn’t true.
i understand why she upped her unban fee from $500 to $600 with OP.
I think your mistake (not criticizing, I did the same or worse!) was to assume or to begin believing that she was doing anything (including just giving you attention) for some reason other than money. But maybe she said that, or implied it.
That's what I think is the line between the normal transactional relationship, where no one is in the wrong, versus manipulation and outright scamming. (Like in my case, which was extreme, the model wasn't even subtle about it. She was saying all kinds of direct things on calls and in long messages, claiming a desire to travel together, have a relationship, relocate, and so on. It wasn't some kind of role play. Not that I asked for, anyway! In fact, when I would question her sincerity, she would blow up or cry; all sorts of drama was routinely happening. Not to mention a lot of specifics that were later proven to be lies. No real way to excuse it other than scamming).
In your case, it sounds like more of a borderline situation. You started helping her because of the belief that you were real friends, and maybe she was reinforcing that idea and misleading a bit. She just went along with it and was willing to keep taking your money. And you did seem to realize that it wasn't going to turn into something more than friends but sounds like you got hurt and angry when you learned even the friendship part was b.s.
I will say that the situation I described was several years ago. I continued to visit sites sometimes, and talked to a lot of models, and I have never had any other model try to draw me down the path of some kind of scam. I think you could still visit sites, just hold to what you said: Don't let yourself think you are going to be "friends" or more with any of the models. Don't try to meet your emotional needs. Just view it as entertainment on the sites and nothing more.
It's good your learned this before something worse happened.
I've been through something very similar myself, I have written about it before on this site. The girl I was involved with was from Colombia and similar things went on. Medical expenses and so on. I understand there's some kind of statutory medical insurance system in Colombia?? So I always took these with a pinch of salt.
I still talk to her, I can't help it. In the course if the first 12 months I sent her the equivalent of $7,000 (£5K I'm in the UK), I never realised it was this much until one day I decided to add it up. My PayPal was eventually banned and I'm actually thankful for that.
She quit camming over a year ago and to my knowledge still does not have another job. She still manages to survive and yet in total this year I've probably sent her about $700. I suspect some of the other regulars that I used to see in her room are in the same boat as me and I wish I could contact them to discuss it.
I would advise you to walk away but I also know how difficult it is to do so. My dream was to move to Colombia, start a business and live with her on the Carribbean coast but I have to force myself to accept reality.
I still talk to her, I can't help it. In the course if the first 12 months I sent her the equivalent of $7,000 (£5K I'm in the UK), I never realised it was this much until one day I decided to add it up. My PayPal was eventually banned and I'm actually thankful for that.
She quit camming over a year ago and to my knowledge still does not have another job. She still manages to survive and yet in total this year I've probably sent her about $700. I suspect some of the other regulars that I used to see in her room are in the same boat as me and I wish I could contact them to discuss it.
I would advise you to walk away but I also know how difficult it is to do so. My dream was to move to Colombia, start a business and live with her on the Carribbean coast but I have to force myself to accept reality.
So much delusional stuff in this thread.
Stop falling in love with cam girls.
It's a job.
Though it makes me laugh riotously when I think about the time a guy tried to buy me a boat and I turned him down, after all all I had to do was give him my address...the same guy also told me he loved the color orange on models because it's a bold choice and I happened to have a pair of drop earrings in a rich shade of orange. I put them on and he was all "you're a manipulating whore!"
With that said this thread is beyond circular at this point. You're always going to feel slighted and that's on you.
Stop falling in love with cam girls.
It's a job.
Though it makes me laugh riotously when I think about the time a guy tried to buy me a boat and I turned him down, after all all I had to do was give him my address...the same guy also told me he loved the color orange on models because it's a bold choice and I happened to have a pair of drop earrings in a rich shade of orange. I put them on and he was all "you're a manipulating whore!"
With that said this thread is beyond circular at this point. You're always going to feel slighted and that's on you.
yummybrownfox
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This. I think the word “scam”/“scammer” is thrown around loosely on here by guys with buyer’s remorse, or got their feelings or ego hurt, or just butthurt about a woman telling them “no.”
Had an MFC member years ago come into my public chat and type “Your raffels ain’t shit!” (Yeah, that’s how he spelled the word “raffles”…
), because he was angry at me for not doing his phone call EARLY in the morning when he wanted. (Yes, back then I was offering a phone call as one of my prizes.) First of all, I never promised that the phone call would happen early morning, so it was weird for him to ASSume that. He went off, and started messaging me that my kid should be ashamed to have a mother who’s a whore. I obviously blocked this dude, because you’re not about to be in my public chat (or in my messages) disrespecting me, and publicly trying to make me out to be some lying, scammer bitch. FUCK these unhinged, crybaby-ass “men” and their silly expectations of models.As for the op…as soon as he said he tested the model, I said OMG, this is just too much…and not what the cam site experience is supposed to be like for a member or model.
Honestly @Rex54, for everyone's sake you should stay away from cam models. Go back to standard porn or maybe explore the AI porn scene if it's a thing yet.
I think that's great advice to men who visit cam sites.
But I would also say, to the small percentage of cam girls who do this: Stop engaging in romance scams; meaning, don't feign romantic interest in the client; don't use manipulation, false promises about desire for a real world relationship, and lies to get money from them. Unless they are asking for lies, like part of a role play.
That's way beyond making a customer feel good to keep his business. It's no different than any other kind of romance scam, anywhere else on the internet. It's playing people.
If no one would ever be stupid or let their guard down, there would never be any victims of scams. But doesn't really excuse the scammer for having no ethics.
I can understand how there's a reluctance to admit that there are some models out there who do bad shit, and it's not always some delusional guy or a client with buyer's remorse. Romance scams on the internet hit record numbers last few years. Not surprising that some studio models will take the opportunity, if they see a good target.
All that aside, the OP's story doesn't qualify as love scam. More a case of giving money to someone he felt a connection to, then realizing there wasn't going to be any genuine emotional return. It's not clear that she promised or implied anything.
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You guys are fucking hopeless. You're single because you're stupid and you're trying to make cam girls your girl de facto. You're the guys who were like "yeah he grabbed them by the pussy because when you're famous they let you".
Sounds like there's some level of denial about the fact that there are cam models out there who engage in true love scams. I don't know if it's many, out of so many thousands of models. But they're out there for sure.
Either that or: If a customer falls for a model who is running a long "con" based on feigning romantic interest in him and lying about future plans, then it's really all the guy's fault for being dumb or gullible. Kind of a biased take.
I’ve been on this forum for almost seven years now, and there’s been plenty of threads where the models here didn’t side with the model.
However, and just speaking for myself here, it does get annoying when so many guys who start these kind of threads refuse to take any responsibility whatsoever for their own part in the situation.
The men wrapped up in these situations went to a cam site, sought out models in lower socioeconomic regions, and then believed they could buy true affection and love from someone who is more than likely half their age, in a different country and probably way out of their league. I kinda cringe when people say that they are “in love” with these cam models, because to me it doesn’t sound like love, it’s lust and the hope that you can one day “buy” her.
So to me, it kinda seems nefarious (maybe that’s too harsh of a word, but still) on both parts. Like, if this woman wasn’t hot and young, would these men be “falling in love” with them?
I think its pretty simple. How can there be love when there is payment involved? What makes a viewer think that there are any true feelings involved while at the same time paying for a service?
This is pretty easy to identify:
;If payment = true then love = false
;repeat until death = true lol
Just because a salesman in the shoe store is very friendly to you, it doesn't mean that in the future he will give you and only you all the shoes for free. Or is the intent to marry her and still pay her? This would be quite fucked up.
Of course in a relationship it happens that one half earns more money than the other half. Even that is not easy for both in the long run but can be handled by sharing a common project called "life" where money and sex is by far not the only kind of "investment".
But there is no common "life" between viewer and cammer. I think the maximum is "I like you" But even here its only the fantasy and not the person that is liked.
This is pretty easy to identify:
;If payment = true then love = false
;repeat until death = true lol
Just because a salesman in the shoe store is very friendly to you, it doesn't mean that in the future he will give you and only you all the shoes for free. Or is the intent to marry her and still pay her? This would be quite fucked up.
Of course in a relationship it happens that one half earns more money than the other half. Even that is not easy for both in the long run but can be handled by sharing a common project called "life" where money and sex is by far not the only kind of "investment".
But there is no common "life" between viewer and cammer. I think the maximum is "I like you" But even here its only the fantasy and not the person that is liked.
I think this is true in many circumstances. I think often it's men trying to exploit a power and money differential.
I always admit to my own stupidity in what happened with me. I began chatting with a model without any romantic notions but then I started to get "love bombed" by her after a month or two of friendly chat (even though I didn't know the term at the time, and didn't realize what was going on). I stupidly agreed to start communicating offsite, and that allowed her to ramp it up further. We began to spend a lot of time in communication. You start to feel close after so much of that, week after week. She then began to spin up her needs and problems, and try to get sympathy and help. I spent a long time questioning, even arguing with her about the "relationship," because I was skeptical. But it seemed to be her mission to get me to believe it. It was predatory. It got ridiculous, with her insisting that she was being faithful and describing our situation as an actual relationship, with various plans for the future. In the long run, it was mostly about her keeping a connection going for as long as possible, asking for help with various expenses, and making promises that there was no intention to keep. Later, I learned that she lied about several things that cast almost everything else in doubt.
Probably not. But aren't people more likely to fall in love with attractive people than unattractive people? I think this is one part of it but it may also be that the guy is only seeing a limited view of the person, even if communicating for hours on chat or video calls. It might feel real, but it's not.
I'm saying this while laughing about it, but the model I was interacting with (a situation several years ago) argued with me about this topic. I asked the same thing. Her answer was that I didn't understand Slavic culture. She said for Russian women, a big part of the way love is shown by a man is by helping take care of problems in the woman's life. Eventually, I began to say, "You know, that would make sense if we were in the same place, seeing each other in person, but not an internet relationship." She would throw a tantrum but this is also the point she realized that I was coming out of my fog.
I’m glad you can see that. There’s definitely a power dynamic going on, and I think almost all of the time, we aren’t getting the full story here, just the jaded person’s version which paints the model as a villain.
I always find it peculiar that about 99% of the time we see these threads, the model is either Eastern European or Latin America. Of course, they are beautiful women. But, I think some of these members have skewed perspectives or not so well intentions when visiting models from lower socioeconomic regions, because of what we’ve seen in shows like 90 day fiancée, and that they’re purposefully looking for a beautiful, exotic woman who would be absolutely willing to be with a man just because he’s from America or Western Europe. At times, it does come off as predatory.
I think you have a fairly good outlook of your previous situation, from what you’ve posted here. But just curious, even with the love bombing of sorts, did it not strike you as odd at any point in the beginning?
Attractiveness is subjective, of course. And I am a firm believer that physical and sexual attraction does play a big part in most healthy relationships. And with that point being made, sometimes I see these guys who admit that they’re 50+ and the model is in her early 20’s, and it’s like… do you honestly think this woman would fall for a man in another country, more than double her age when she can easily find men closer to her age that lives closer to her? I’m not trying to be mean, but I think men sometimes get blinded by certain things when an attractive woman is giving him attention.
In my experience, this is actually true. Of course it’s different when you’re not technically together, but in irl relationships. I’ve mentioned here before, but my best friend is Russian. She was raised with her mother telling her that it’s a man’s job to financially take care of the woman.
Granted, that’s not all Russian women, and it’s not exclusive to Russian women either. I’m from a more traditional background and I know a lot of women I grew up with who believe in traditional gender roles, where the man works and financially provides for her and their family.
Maybe some but I'm sure for the vast majority of them it's because the model is willing to spend more time giving them attention.
I could see where there would be guys trying to use financial leverage with models from certain parts of the world, which might not work with models in other places.
In my case, I encountered the model by chance, because there was almost no one in her room and she was sitting there looking sad. I didn't have much experience on cam sites. I didn't realize that she rarely had traffic in her rooms because almost all her income came from finding people like me, and talking to them for hours and saying they are her boyfriend.
Time has passed. I learned a lot about myself, and why I let myself get into that mess.
We spent about two months talking constantly. Wasn't even a sexual aspect. Just talking about life, and our past, all sorts of topics. So the groundwork was there. Maybe that was part of the strategy. I stupidly didn't consider that no matter how close we seemed, she was making money from most of our conversations, and that matters.
After that, she began to make little comments, statements that were a bit flirtatious and romantic, but it was subtle for another few weeks. I guess by the time I began responding in kind, she then ramped it up. I remember her sending me a very long letter talking about how she did not view me as a client at all, but as a man for her future. And then she began to write those kind of notes frequently. And talk turned to meeting in person.
She was late 20s, and even though we had a big age difference, it wasn't so much that it was inconceivable. Maybe this was also part of the game, but she made a point to tell me that she often had much older boyfriends. For example, she said that at age 19, she had a relationship with a 39-year-old man in her city and she didn't see anything wrong with it. I felt a connection to her, and wanted to believe the situation was real. But yes, I always had some skepticism that would arise and I would even express it, usually causing an argument.
Sometimes we believe what we want to believe, even if we know better. Anyway, I never dreamed someone could put on such a performance for so long, and say so many things with such affection and insistence, and yet be lying about so much of it. It was really surprising.
But looking back, I think it was a combination of me having bad judgment, and someone who is really good at reading men and manipulating.
"But there is no common "life" between viewer and cammer. I think the maximum is "I like you" But even here its only the fantasy and not the person that is liked."
Excellent observation
George your situation seems so similar to mine, I assume you have cut off all contact?
I found this site and these threads about various guys falling in love with cam girls over a year ago now. I haven't posted much about my situation although I have wanted to. I don't post about this experience for sympathy or because I feel like I'm the victim, I take responsibility for my actions.
The reason I write about it is because 18 months ago when this was all starting, I wish I had found this site and read all of these threads and then perhaps I would have made better decisions. So I hope my experiences help others to make better decisions.
Back at the start of all this I was searching around and I took some bad advice off one website which was to leave the cam girl your WhatsApp number and see if she messages you, which I did do and obviously she messaged me and immediately asked for help to buy a Christmas present for her daughter, which I was happy to do.
I've been using webcam sites for 15 years on and off and usually I wouldn't even return to a girls room if I had already seen a show from them because there's literally 1000s of others that I hadn't seen. I don't know what came over me I just found a connection with this one girl.
I found this site and these threads about various guys falling in love with cam girls over a year ago now. I haven't posted much about my situation although I have wanted to. I don't post about this experience for sympathy or because I feel like I'm the victim, I take responsibility for my actions.
The reason I write about it is because 18 months ago when this was all starting, I wish I had found this site and read all of these threads and then perhaps I would have made better decisions. So I hope my experiences help others to make better decisions.
Back at the start of all this I was searching around and I took some bad advice off one website which was to leave the cam girl your WhatsApp number and see if she messages you, which I did do and obviously she messaged me and immediately asked for help to buy a Christmas present for her daughter, which I was happy to do.
I've been using webcam sites for 15 years on and off and usually I wouldn't even return to a girls room if I had already seen a show from them because there's literally 1000s of others that I hadn't seen. I don't know what came over me I just found a connection with this one girl.
I'd disagree that there is no common life between viewers and cammers. There is no future in a relationship (or at least rarely there is) but there is common life. Everyone in the world can find some common ground and chatting about life's trials and tribulations isn't any more abnormal in the cam world than it is elsewhere. It's when you've been asked to pay for a cataract operation for her fifth consecutive different grandmother than you should know to give yourself a shake."But there is no common "life" between viewer and cammer. I think the maximum is "I like you" But even here its only the fantasy and not the person that is liked."
Excellent observation
I can agree with some if that, but I've also read how sites like CB shouldn't be treated like "social media."
I'd disagree with your disagreement
common life? where does it start, where does it end? we can define these words all we want with the result that we are beating around the bush. Happens a lot in online discussions. I like to be able to disagree with you without offending you.
for me common ground is something else than common life. If I enter a models room we have common ground. But that means nothing more than having some fun. I have chosen to only share positive things with cammers in what I say and do. In that regard a viewer is just a fantasy for the model as a model is a fantasy for the viewer. There is enough negativity in my real life. Having a common life means sharing also the negative parts like fear, sorrow, death, disease and hate. So if someone wants to marry a cammer, does he want to share fear, sorrow, death, disease and hate with ...... a fantasy? Completely delusional. Granted, I needed my time to arrive at this conclusion. Luckily I never had THAT much money to spend or have other financial endeavors which were more important for me. So it might have been easier for me to arrive at this conclusion.
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I think I get what you mean here, and the previous disagreement was just a semantics/wording misunderstanding.
Financial disparities can be hard on an irl relationship, but there’s more to those relationships than just money and sex, and all of those parts basically is their “common life”. The life that those two people share together.
A cam model and a member don’t have that shared life, even if they are close. But that doesn’t mean that they can’t have things in common. But, just because you share certain aspects of your life with someone doesn’t mean you share a life with them.
Did I interpret that right?
Because I do agree.
Also, somewhat off topic, but I don’t think it’s always hard in a relationship when one person makes more than the other. I know quite a few couples where the man is the sole breadwinner and the woman is a stay at home wife/mother/girlfriend. They have good relationships because even if the woman isn’t bringing in any money, she still contributes to their shared lives in other ways.
Honestly, the times I’ve seen it be a problem is usually when the woman makes more than the man. I’ve personally dealt with this. I dated, and lived with, two guys when I was much younger, where I made more money than them. With the first one, I was a bartender and he legit threw tantrums on multiple occasions when I came home from a shift and told him how much I made. I once made about $400 in a short shift and he accused me of sleeping with regulars, because I was working at a very small sports bar at the time and according to him “there was no way I could possibly make that much in tips there”.
Second guy, I was working at a very popular nightclub by then and it wasn’t uncommon for me to make $1k+ a night on the weekends. He eventually started depending on me to pay our shared bills. During a huge festival weekend I worked doubles for four days (it wasn’t uncommon for me to work from 10am-4am during huge fest times), and made a very good amount of money. Monday night I was counting out my money in the living room so I could deposit it into my account the next day. He walks in and makes a comment about how he is going to take x amount of money to pay his car note. Well, I woke up the next morning at the buttcrack of dawn and went to the bank to deposit it all into my account. When he woke up and went to leave and saw there was no money, he had the nerve to ask what I did with it. Told him “Oh, you mean MY money. I deposited it into MY bank account”. He then went on to say I barely worked, that my job wasn’t hard, and that all I did was stand behind a bar and have people throw money at me because I’m pretty. Like, sure, I’m selling 10k+ a day in liquor (and that was just my sales, not including the five other bartenders who I also worked with) and dealing with literally hundreds of people. But sure, that’s not actual work. It made me vow to never, ever take care of a man financially when he wasn’t able to or willing to take care of himself, because I am more traditional and do think that a man should be able to provide for his partner and family.
Sorry to go off on an unrelated tangent, but your post made me think of that haha.
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