Scammed?

[Vixxen81]

https://support.chaturbate.com/hc/en-us/categories/360003966731-Broadcaster-Guide

https://support.chaturbate.com/hc/en-us/articles/360048893751-Tips-for-Success

Every site tells people how to make money.

 

[Marceline]

I don’t think anti-porn forums are the best places to go to get unbiased, realistic or any sort of positive feedback when it comes to cam sites/cam models.

 

[Vixxen81]

I don’t think anti-porn forums are the best places to go to get unbiased, realistic or any sort of positive feedback when it comes to cam sites/cam models.

Does it ever blow your mind that this is the world's oldest profession and guys still act stupid about it? Because my mind is blown daily.

 

[GeorgeSpelvin]

I saw it mentioned on a forum called "No Fap" which I found about the same time as I found this site. The thread that it was mentioned in was quite old and was unable to find it.

I'm almost positive that I came across it on a site devoted to cam modeling. No recall of the name of the forum but it seemed more for customers. (Though models also posted there, because there were threads with models discussing experiences or advice on specific studios). It's been a couple of years. No idea if that's where it was originally posted, or if it had already been making the rounds on the internet.

I remembered while writing this: It wasn't a manual from one studio, but from a company that ran cam modeling studios in several countries in Eastern Europe.

It covered different topics, but the part that people focused on was a section on tips for hooking in customers and suggested things to say in different situations. Like a manual for a sales training class. Some of it was cheesy. Might have been translation issues. I don't remember anything nefarious but it did give a look into how they trained models in those studios. Some people didn't like it because it "said the quiet part out loud." I suppose illusion is part of the appeal on cam sites, some commenters didn't like the "sales tactics" that came off as manipulation. But from what others post about studios in some locations, it isn't surprising.

 

[Slapstick]

There was a manual that got leaked from some studio overseas (I'm thinking it was Romania or other Eastern European country) several years back. I only came across it about a year ago. I can't remember the site where I saw it. very interesting if you ever find it. It doesn't directly suggest scamming customers, at least not so overtly, but it is revealing to see behind the curtain of how they were training the models in that environment.

This is may be what you saw. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/camgirlnotesfr/models-manual-from-a-czech-web-cam-studio-t421.html

It is from a Czech studio and is pretty vanilla stuff; what to bring to your first shift, tips on user engagement, do's and don'ts, technical details on public and private shows etc. It is directly aimed at brand new models about to work their first ever shift.

 

[GeorgeSpelvin]

This is may be what you saw. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/camgirlnotesfr/models-manual-from-a-czech-web-cam-studio-t421.html

It is from a Czech studio and is pretty vanilla stuff; what to bring to your first shift, tips on user engagement, do's and don'ts, technical details on public and private shows etc. It is directly aimed at brand new models about to work their first ever shift.

I'm nearly sure that's not the same manual I saw. Although the attachment is gone so you can only see what's posted. I remember the cover had the name of the company, and the part that stood out was a section with a lot of examples of specific phrases or sentences suggested, as well as examples of scenarios. There were tips about what to ask a client when you see him the next time, how you need to have notes or something. Some of it was similar to the tips on user engagement in above that you linked, but a lot more detailed. I haven't been able to find it again so far.

 

[cbhours]

Whatever you found it's probably ancient, I haven't seen a manual in forever. Video tutorials yes but a manual with text? Nope

 

[HeadyRaven]

if a model doesn't hustle she doesn't win and if you aren't gullible...there's no hustle.

What do models mean when they talk about a "hustle"? I've seen the word mentioned here in other posts. On the one hand, a "hustler" can be:

1. an enterprising person determined to succeed; a go-getter

On the other hand:

2. person who employs fraudulent or unscrupulous methods to obtain money; swindler

I assumed meaning #1, which has positive connotations. But when you threw in the word "gullible," I wasn't sure. If gullible customers are required, does that mean they are being fooled about something?

I do know a model closely who some people would say fits definition #2. She makes about 80% of her income currently from three clients who quite literally believe in some variation of her being their long-distance (one day to be more) girlfriend, and each has no idea that anyone else has the same storyline going. One man sends photos of a house he has been renovating and asks for input on a lot of the plans, in the belief that said model is one day going to be relocating and living in that house. (Even though she has not left her country to see him, and she lives in a different country than what he believes). Another is paying for weekly tutoring in English (which is not happening, though she did get an iPhone app so she could have some new phrases to show off). Allof them have paid to help her for the exact same medical expenses and other events. Yes, duplicate contributions for the same expense. lol

I would call this hustling of the "bad" sort. My reaction to these stories is ambivalent. I'm not going to deny, it can even be funny and sad at the same time. But she feels that they are getting comfort from these arrangements, and weirdly has a way of thinking about it like they are really her friends, and just because of some big piece (romantic feelings and plans) being untrue, it's okay.

I'm digressing, but she told me about a situation where one of these guys had a financial problem, and then made dumb decisions to keep giving her money to buy presents for herself. So you have to wonder if sometimes they know (at some level?) that it's not real. What I mean is: If he really thought she cared for him, why would he feel pressure to keep sending money even while having a big financial issue? Wouldn't he think that she would understand? Or even help him, for that matter, if they are truly a "couple"? I'm still trying to wrap my head around what these men are thinking.

 

[RainForest]

What do models mean when they talk about a "hustle"? I've seen the word mentioned here in other posts. On the one hand, a "hustler" can be:

1. an enterprising person determined to succeed; a go-getter

On the other hand:

2. person who employs fraudulent or unscrupulous methods to obtain money; swindler

I assumed meaning #1, which has positive connotations. But when you threw in the word "gullible," I wasn't sure. If gullible customers are required, does that mean they are being fooled about something?

I do know a model closely who some people would say fits definition #2. She makes about 80% of her income currently from three clients who quite literally believe in some variation of her being their long-distance (one day to be more) girlfriend, and each has no idea that anyone else has the same storyline going. One man sends photos of a house he has been renovating and asks for input on a lot of the plans, in the belief that said model is one day going to be relocating and living in that house. (Even though she has not left her country to see him, and she lives in a different country than what he believes). Another is paying for weekly tutoring in English (which is not happening, though she did get an iPhone app so she could have some new phrases to show off). Allof them have paid to help her for the exact same medical expenses and other events. Yes, duplicate contributions for the same expense. lol

I would call this hustling of the "bad" sort. My reaction to these stories is ambivalent. I'm not going to deny, it can even be funny and sad at the same time. But she feels that they are getting comfort from these arrangements, and weirdly has a way of thinking about it like they are really her friends, and just because of some big piece (romantic feelings and plans) being untrue, it's okay.

I'm digressing, but she told me about a situation where one of these guys had a financial problem, and then made dumb decisions to keep giving her money to buy presents for herself. So you have to wonder if sometimes they know (at some level?) that it's not real. What I mean is: If he really thought she cared for him, why would he feel pressure to keep sending money even while having a big financial issue? Wouldn't he think that she would understand? Or even help him, for that matter, if they are truly a "couple"? I'm still trying to wrap my head around what these men are thinking.

This question is better posed to your model friend and her customer. We have nothing to do with this behavior.

 

[HeadyRaven]

This question is better posed to your model friend and her customer. We have nothing to do with this behavior.

I did once ask if she thought about telling that guy to not worry about sending anything for awhile, until he got himself together. She said she had not thought about it. I don't think she appreciated the implications for him. My guess is that he was worried about disappointing her. At the time, she also said a Russian expression that translates more or less sarcastically to a comment about what people will do for love.

To clarify, I wasn't implying that anyone here engages in that behavior. At one time, I had a very skewed view because she and her friends were the only models I knew. Due to this forum, and interactions with other models on sites, my perspective changed a lot. I think her way of working is something that has more to do with her personally, as well as where she's from, and her studio. All of it together.

 

[KingMarti]

I did once ask if she thought about telling that guy to not worry about sending anything for awhile, until he got himself together. She said she had not thought about it.

Cam models are not financial advisors, it is not our place to tell members how they should be managing their money.

 

[HeadyRaven]

Cam models are not financial advisors, it is not our place to tell members how they should be managing their money.

Yes, of course, but you probably didn't see the context of the conversation. There are some other things this particular model does that aren't things most models would do (at least to my understanding).

In this case, the member is in full belief that he and the model are in a long distance romantic relationship, complete with various plans, and him having taken various steps related to this belief. I asked her this question more because of feeling bad for the guy, but also curiousity about why he wasn't wondering that his "fiance" isn't more concerned about his finances.

 

[Vixxen81]

I think media gives the impression couples are all up in each other's finances when that's normally not the case.

Someone I know recently discovered her husband had accrued a ton of credit card debt she wasn't aware of but was suddenly expected to help sort out for the sake of the household itself. This scenario is more common than not.

Or there is a joint account for bills amd separare accounts for fun money.

Given how patriarchal Russian culture is, I sincerely doubt she would dare to intervene if she was in a romantic relationship with any man let alone a viewer.

 

[MarieElise]

Yes, of course, but you probably didn't see the context of the conversation. There are some other things this particular model does that aren't things most models would do (at least to my understanding).

In this case, the member is in full belief that he and the model are in a long distance romantic relationship, complete with various plans, and him having taken various steps related to this belief. I asked her this question more because of feeling bad for the guy, but also curiousity about why he wasn't wondering that his "fiance" isn't more concerned about his finances.

It seems weird to me that if all this is true, she is sharing it with you. Why is she boasting or whatever it is she's doing to you? What she does with each individual client is between her and him only. I either immediately think it's all garbage, or there's some ulterior motive to fuck w you/ get more money out of you/ draw you into something by even sharing this garbage w you. The fact you keep asking us about it, makes me think on some level you are troubled by it. Have you thought about setting boundaries w her? Or are you perhaps getting off on this yourself on some level? If you have not gained clarity and consciously thought about this, I'd encourage you to do so. This has been going on a while now.

And tbh I don't approve of what you've shared of this woman's behavior. But at the same time, who fucking knows what the future holds for her (if this is all even true). Maybe she will actually end up w one of these guys, and she's playing them off against eachother to see who's strongest. I really don't know, and I really don't like to judge. But more than anything the lack of privacy and oversharing kinda repulses me.

As far as her even sharing this w you (if any of it is true), and then you sharing it w us... Definitely not trying to shame you, but also trying to highlight that maybe you should examine what your role is here, and what's going on with you. When people share horrific or troubling info it can vicariously traumatize the listener and effect their life in far reached ways. I wonder the effect this is having on you? How is this going to affect not just how you see cam models, but women in general? Idk doesn't sound healthy.

 

[KingMarti]

Yes, of course, but you probably didn't see the context of the conversation. There are some other things this particular model does that aren't things most models would do (at least to my understanding).

In this case, the member is in full belief that he and the model are in a long distance romantic relationship, complete with various plans, and him having taken various steps related to this belief. I asked her this question more because of feeling bad for the guy, but also curiousity about why he wasn't wondering that his "fiance" isn't more concerned about his finances.

If he is there and tipping, why would she be concerned about his finances? The assumption would be since he is an adult that if he was unable to tip he would not be tipping.

 

[HeadyRaven]

If he is there and tipping, why would she be concerned about his finances? The assumption would be since he is an adult that if he was unable to tip he would not be tipping.

Because she has been telling him that they are in a relationship and planning a trip, and apparently even a relocation. So from HIS perspective (even though he is apparently still not aware that those things are never going to occur), this is his fiance or serious girlfriend. Wouldn't you expect your partner to be at least a little worried if he or she lost their job, and they were going through a difficult time? You might even offer to help. lol I think some level of empathy about the situation would be in order for a couple.

Incidentally, I don't think there's a lot of tipping. I think there may be some but also money is sent outside of sites. But that's not relevant, more of a side note.

 

[RVN]

Tipping is one thing as long as both parties are happy with the services offered.

When someone pretends to have feelings for another person for financial gain, that's where it crosses the line for me.

When a person lies about sick family members, especially children, then the line has been crossed and more.

We all know that the vast majority of models are decent and just working for a living. But that doesn't take away from the fact that there are clearly models, usually in studios in poorer countries, who are encouraged to cross the line.

 

[MarieElise]

And lets highlight the other side of the coin too. Lots of viewers pretend to have romantic/ committed relationship intentions w models, when they really just want a regular source of free porn and titillation, or a possible free side chick to bang.

They just don't want to pay, and don't feel that they should have to because of sexism, insecurity and ego problems.

So maybe the models pretending to have feelings, and the guys doing this, should ride off into the sunset together. And the rest of us should mind our own/ stay tf out of it, and worry about what we can control ourselves.

 

[HeadyRaven]

It seems weird to me that if all this is true, she is sharing it with you. Why is she boasting or whatever it is she's doing to you? What she does with each individual client is between her and him only. I either immediately think it's all garbage, or there's some ulterior motive to fuck w you/ get more money out of you/ draw you into something by even sharing this garbage w you. The fact you keep asking us about it, makes me think on some level you are troubled by it. Have you thought about setting boundaries w her? Or are you perhaps getting off on this yourself on some level? If you have not gained clarity and consciously thought about this, I'd encourage you to do so. This has been going on a while now.

And tbh I don't approve of what you've shared of this woman's behavior. But at the same time, who fucking knows what the future holds for her (if this is all even true). Maybe she will actually end up w one of these guys, and she's playing them off against eachother to see who's strongest. I really don't know, and I really don't like to judge. But more than anything the lack of privacy and oversharing kinda repulses me.

As far as her even sharing this w you (if any of it is true), and then you sharing it w us... Definitely not trying to shame you, but also trying to highlight that maybe you should examine what your role is here, and what's going on with you. When people share horrific or troubling info it can vicariously traumatize the listener and effect their life in far reached ways. I wonder the effect this is having on you? How is this going to affect not just how you see cam models, but women in general? Idk doesn't sound healthy.

I don't have any connection with her in that manner (as in a customer of a cam model). I don't give her money, and rarely have visited her when she was on any sites. Yes, she does boast about it.

The interest in it is more that she (and actually a friend of hers as well, to a lesser extent) were at one time almost all of what I was aware of with cam modeling. So, yes, that turned out to be a skewed view. It definitely had a huge effect on my perception, but now, over a period of time (seeing more of what seems "normal" for cam modeling), I've started wondering more and more about her personally.

I would say that this is someone I am close with, but this aspect of her is not very admirable at all, and it's a little scary sometimes. So it is difficult to reconcile this behavior with everything about her outside of this "work." As far as the business goes, she's been working in it for 6-7 years but not planning to remain much longer, but this is mostly how she has worked in recent years. There was a time when she worked differently, but did not like doing shows etc.

 

[Lover31660]

Tipping is one thing as long as both parties are happy with the services offered.

When someone pretends to have feelings for another person for financial gain, that's where it crosses the line for me.

When a person lies about sick family members, especially children, then the line has been crossed and more.

We all know that the vast majority of models are decent and just working for a living. But that doesn't take away from the fact that there are clearly models, usually in studios in poorer countries, who are encouraged to cross the line.

There will always be people to prey upon.

 

[HeadyRaven]

And lets highlight the other side of the coin too. Lots of viewers pretend to have romantic/ committed relationship intentions w models, when they really just want a regular source of free porn and titillation, or a possible free side chick to bang.

They just don't want to pay, and don't feel that they should have to because of sexism, insecurity and ego problems.

So maybe the models pretending to have feelings, and the guys doing this, should ride off into the sunset together. And the rest of us should mind our own/ stay tf out of it, and worry about what we can control ourselves.

If only those two groups could connect! Unfortunately, from what you said, it seems like if there is pretending going on, it may often be one side or the other doing the pretending. And both aspects seem very unpleasant, really.

Actually suprised though about the part regarding lots of viewers pretending to have romantic/committed relationship intentions with models.

 

[MarieElise]

very unpleasant, really.

Very. I'm not sure that it's always one sided, and as black and white as that. But, yes, people being predatory sucks.
I'm super glad to hear that you have widened your perspectives and realize this is a her thing.

Just like many of you guys probably have sisters, friends, etc you wouldn't want to be treated predatory by some man on the internet, many of us have brothers, sons, fathers, grandfathers etc we wouldn't want to see that happen to either. Mostly all the models here (at this forum) are free spirited, creative Indie models, who are into actually being a cam model, not scamming vulnerable people.

 

[Marceline]

It seems weird to me that if all this is true, she is sharing it with you. Why is she boasting or whatever it is she's doing to you? What she does with each individual client is between her and him only. I either immediately think it's all garbage, or there's some ulterior motive to fuck w you/ get more money out of you/ draw you into something by even sharing this garbage w you.

I personally think it's all made up by the quoted member, who has previously exhibited odd behavior when it comes to members who tip a lot of money. The amount of detail going into these posts about other members, who he doesn't know, seems off. And if there really is some mean Russian cam model telling him all these details about how she is conning other members, I would imagine she is just telling him what he wants to hear, because I'd imagine said member probably talks about whales to other models as much as he talks about them here. Still, I think the former scenario is the case here. If this model really is loveconning multiple men and is making a lot of money from it, she would have everything to lose and nothing to gain by telling a member who doesn't tip her all the details about her cons, because he could easily go to these members and show them screenshots of conversations.

The fact you keep asking us about it, makes me think on some level you are troubled by it.

This is the only part I disagree with you on. Those posts don't sound like someone who is troubled by it to me, if they even are real. It sounds like someone who is secretly enjoying it.

/twocents

 

[HeadyRaven]

Very. I'm not sure that it's always one sided, and as black and white as that. But, yes, people being predatory sucks.
I'm super glad to hear that you have widened your perspectives and realize this is a her thing.

Just like many of you guys probably have sisters, friends, etc you wouldn't want to be treated predatory by some man on the internet, many of us have brothers, sons, fathers, grandfathers etc we wouldn't want to see that happen to either. Mostly all the models here (at this forum) are free spirited, creative Indie models, who are into actually being a cam model, not scamming vulnerable people.

And also, as I just now was thinking more about this from your message, kind of feel like I have been hearing rationalizations for all this from her for so many years, or sometimes even will hear an explanation that sounds normal for a second but then you go - wait, that isn't logical or normal at all.

Then, actually going to sites and interacting with models reading on forums like this, it began to give me a weird feeling or questions (about her). Then that made me think of a couple of times over the years where we had an argument (nothing at all to do with this topic or cam modeling), and I saw a side of her that made hair stand up on the back of my neck. Anyway, enough on this I suppose.

 

[Vixxen81]

If only those two groups could connect! Unfortunately, from what you said, it seems like if there is pretending going on, it may often be one side or the other doing the pretending. And both aspects seem very unpleasant, really.

Actually suprised though about the part regarding lots of viewers pretending to have romantic/committed relationship intentions with models.

Captain Save-a-hoes...they want to rescue us and will use anything they can think of to try to make it happen.

 

[MarieElise]

I personally think it's all made up by the quoted member, who has previously exhibited odd behavior when it comes to members who tip a lot of money. The amount of detail going into these posts about other members, who he doesn't know, seems off. And if there really is some mean Russian cam model telling him all these details about how she is conning other members, I would imagine she is just telling him what he wants to hear, because I'd imagine said member probably talks about whales to other models as much as he talks about them here. Still, I think the former scenario is the case here. If this model really is loveconning multiple men and is making a lot of money from it, she would have everything to lose and nothing to gain by telling a member who doesn't tip her all the details about her cons, because he could easily go to these members and show them screenshots of conversations.



This is the only part I disagree with you on. Those posts don't sound like someone who is troubled by it to me, if they even are real. It sounds like someone who is secretly enjoying it.

/twocents

Yes, I have thought this exact same thing, and I have gone back and forth on it. That this guy is just some piece of trash himself , jerking off while he makes this shit up, and purely just thinking of his own dick every time he posts here. The idealist in me, would like to be wrong about that though, and I'm not 100 percent sure. But, yes, I have thought many times I am wrong to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[HeadyRaven]

I personally think it's all made up by the quoted member, who has previously exhibited odd behavior when it comes to members who tip a lot of money. The amount of detail going into these posts about other members, who he doesn't know, seems off. And if there really is some mean Russian cam model telling him all these details about how she is conning other members, I would imagine she is just telling him what he wants to hear, because I'd imagine said member probably talks about whales to other models as much as he talks about them here. Still, I think the former scenario is the case here. If this model really is loveconning multiple men and is making a lot of money from it, she would have everything to lose and nothing to gain by telling a member who doesn't tip her all the details about her cons, because he could easily go to these members and show them screenshots of conversations.



This is the only part I disagree with you on. Those posts don't sound like someone who is troubled by it to me, if they even are real. It sounds like someone who is secretly enjoying it.

/twocents

Well, thanks for your two cents but you got nearly all of that wrong. And I'm not a "member" - at least not in any way connected to that model. Or really all that much involved in cam modeling in general.

And this is someone who knows I wouldn't interfere with what she does (regardless of my opinion of it).

I don't have discussions with "other models" about "whales" or really anything else about the business (outside of this site).

But that's the beauty of the internet! People write things and you can believe or disbelieve whatever you want.

 

[MarieElise]

And also, as I just now was thinking more about this from your message, kind of feel like I have been hearing rationalizations for all this from her for so many years, or sometimes even will hear an explanation that sounds normal for a second but then you go - wait, that isn't logical or normal at all.

Then, actually going to sites and interacting with models reading on forums like this, it began to give me a weird feeling or questions (about her). Then that made me think of a couple of times over the years where we had an argument (nothing at all to do with this topic or cam modeling), and I saw a side of her that made hair stand up on the back of my neck. Anyway, enough on this I suppose.

The thing that struck me is that theres this stereotype that all cam models are narcissists and/or sociopaths. Which is frankly very untrue. It's not even a large number tbh. I've been very active on a lot of behind the scenes models only social forums (not just here, many, many more - this is just my fave) through the years, and this I can tell you that w absolute certainty.

Even in this person's case, you have described these ridiculous justifications. People without a conscience or empathy don't need to make justifications for what they are doing. Saying things like "oh it gives them something to do and be happy about" etc This person sounds like they have some issues, but I think, if all you've said is true, they know on some level what is going on, ain't cool. If it's even going on, and you aren't just making this all up to jerk off to.

Which if perchance you are - up yours; you're scum! If not; ignore that part

 

[Marceline]

Yes, I have thought this exact same thing, and I have gone back and forth on it. That this guy is just some piece of trash himself , jerking off while he makes this shit up, and purely just thinking of his own dick every time he posts here. The idealist in me, would like to be wrong about that though, and I'm not 100 percent sure. But, yes, I have thought many times I am wrong to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Definitely wouldn’t be the first time someone has come here and wrote out their masturbatory fan fictions and tried to get us models, and even members, to partake in their fetishes for free. When someone talks about the same things over and over, and puts such elaborate description into those sorts of posts, that’s the vibe I get.

 

[HeadyRaven]

Yes, I have thought this exact same thing, and I have gone back and forth on it. That this guy is just some piece of trash himself , jerking off while he makes this shit up, and purely just thinking of his own dick every time he posts here. The idealist in me, would like to be wrong about that though, and I'm not 100 percent sure. But, yes, I have thought many times I am wrong to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Well, you seem inclined to think everything relates to some kind of possible fetish. Maybe that's related to being in this business a long time.

Anyway, as I just replied to the other person's comment, you'll conclude whatever you wish. I've appreciated a lot of your posts and replies, including on this thread; they often give me new and helpful perspectives. So whether you think it's all fiction made up by some guy with a fetish of whatever this would be, or fully the truth, there's nothing I can or want to say to "convince" anyone else. Anything I could conceivably say or do would definitely be way over the line. But, again, I really have appreciated the useful insights and suggestions.