San Francisco Wants To Criminalize Infant Circumcision

[Zoomer]

the foreskin is there for humans like it is for animals, to act as a shovel to scoop out the last partner's semen.

Say WHAT?! Sorry, you're going to HAVE to provide a reference for this. My foreskin isn't able to scoop cum out of anyone...

Show me a guy who's uncut who knows how to keep it clean to my standards and i'll be ok with it, but i've yet to see an uncut guy who actually was able to keep it clean.

I'm going to be as rude as you are - to the casual observer this statement says more about the type you fuck than those you don't sweetheart.
You're making gross generalisations - so I've just done the same Sorry, the way you're harping on about it makes you seem... well, enough said. I honestly have no belief about any men you've engaged in sexual intercourse with, despite what I say. I'd sort of appreciate not being instantly labelled filthy or incapable of cleaning myself based upon your very limited experience of the billions of men in the world

smegma smells disgusting and looks foul. you can't just whipe that off with a baby whipe or toilet paper either.

No, you can't. However, peeling back the foreskin and cleaning rigorously with soap and water during a shower or bath on a daily basis keeps me spotless.


Maybe you should consider getting your clitoral hood removed, you know, for hygiene reasons - same goes for your daughter if you have one :thumbleft:

As a survivor of circumcision, I don't recall the trauma of the ordeal. Perhaps I blocked it out?

Yeah no one remembers it do they?

Do you remember anything from when you are a baby? My first memories are from the age of 5... I don't even remember the pain of breaking my nose. Nor the pain when I fell off a horse and lost most of the skin from my arm. Or my mother falling on me whilst skiing and breaking my collar bone. Nor having 5 people end up on my wrist, breaking my wrist...

So, the question is...seeing as you don't remember it means it is okay - this should go for everything in life? Lets jump straight to controversy - rape is okay, as long as the lady doesn't remember then surely?

Regarding the vote: why should someone else get to vote on whether my child can go through a non-harmful, traditional cultural/religious custom? It's no different from putting "Should black people be allowed to buy alcohol?" to a vote. Just because the process is democratic doesn't mean it should be something people get to vote on.

Yes, it is very very different. You are discriminating against people for no reason... With regards to the operation of circumcision - ALL surgery carries a risk. The risk may be small, local anaesthetic means very little risk indeed from anaesthesia problems, but it is still surgery.

The argument seems to simply stem around the fact that parents want their children one way, instead of the way they are born. Also, because the child is way too young to make any decision (or even be able to understand the decision) it is completely acceptable to alter someone's body because you want it that way.

Does this mean if I want my child to have no ear lobes, I can cut those off too? It'll prevent the build up of dead cells if they don't dry behind their ears properly! How about shaving off all bodily hair, as hair IS the perfect place for bacteria growth If I have a daughter, how about labia removal? :thumbleft: After all, it's purely cosmetic...having a foreskin offers no medical risk unless you can provide evidence otherwise.

For interest, no, I wouldn't vote to outlaw it. Yes, I have been purposefully aggravating in my post.

Oh, as the effect upon sensitivity. I cannot pull my foreskin back and then wander around with boxers and jeans on... it is uncomfortable. It is highly sensitive to touch - I guess this means I'll cum quicker than a guy who is circumcised though - as there is less sensation for him...therefore more enjoyable for the lady perhaps?

 

[SatanJonez]

I believe it should be up to the parent to decide whether or not to have the procedure done to their infant. The state shouldn't really have a say in it. That being said, if I had a son, I would NOT have him circumcised. Yeah, it's probably a pain in the ass to get it done later in life, but I would want him to make that choice.

 

[Lydia_Deetz]

Zoomer-

To each their own is all anyone is trying to say here. I am glad you are enamored with your extra bit of foreskin

I made it clear in my post that I have been on both sides of the spectrum and I still wanted to have my child circumcised. I would not equate him being circumcised and not remembering it to, "it's ok to rape a person if they don't remember it." :roll:

 

[Nordling]

A lot of the posts are about "freedom of choice." I'm all for that . . .

But think about this issue. Does the person GETTING the mutilated dick have a choice? We have to consider, there are and should be limits to what a "family" can do to their offspring. What if a cult popped up that thought it was cool to lop off their infants' left hands at birth? Is that freedom of choice?

As far as personal likes and dislikes regarding cut vs uncut, isn't a lot of that due to what we've been culturally exposed to? I hate okra but will fight for your right to make gumbo.

 

[AmberCutie]

A lot of the posts are about "freedom of choice." I'm all for that . . .

But think about this issue. Does the person GETTING the mutilated dick have a choice? We have to consider, there are and should be limits to what a "family" can do to their offspring. What if a cult popped up that thought it was cool to lop off their infants' left hands at birth? Is that freedom of choice?

As far as personal likes and dislikes regarding cut vs uncut, isn't a lot of that due to what we've been culturally exposed to? I hate okra but will fight for your right to make gumbo.

That kind of thinking likens this debate with that of abortion, in a sense. And it always comes back to the parents getting to decide for themselves.

 

[AshaSnow]

Give me circumsized penis, or give me no penis at all.

 

[Rose]

the foreskin is there for humans like it is for animals, to act as a shovel to scoop out the last partner's semen.

Say WHAT?! Sorry, you're going to HAVE to provide a reference for this. My foreskin isn't able to scoop cum out of anyone...

I'm going to be as rude as you are - to the casual observer this statement says more about the type you fuck than those you don't sweetheart.
You're making gross generalisations - so I've just done the same Sorry, the way you're harping on about it makes you seem... well, enough said. I honestly have no belief about any men you've engaged in sexual intercourse with, despite what I say. I'd sort of appreciate not being instantly labelled filthy or incapable of cleaning myself based upon your very limited experience of the billions of men in the world

smegma smells disgusting and looks foul. you can't just whipe that off with a baby whipe or toilet paper either.

No, you can't. However, peeling back the foreskin and cleaning rigorously with soap and water during a shower or bath on a daily basis keeps me spotless.


Maybe you should consider getting your clitoral hood removed, you know, for hygiene reasons - same goes for your daughter if you have one :thumbleft:

wasn't being rude and i didn't sleep with them. i grew up with guys so i saw a lot. as for the penis shape thing, go look it up. it's the same with animals. it's why many insects have corkscrew shaped penises, why praying mantises eat their partners, why most male insects' penises break off after sex, it's why dogs get "knots" during sex. it's nature's way of preventing the first partner from leaving behind semen to produce a baby. go look at isabella rossellini and her green pornos. that's the easiest way to explain it. and i have no qualms with guys who are uncut, just wash it and do it right. my quarrel is with the parents who make this choice for their sons and then don't teach them what they need to know. i have the same qualm with parents of daughters who don't teach them proper hygeine.
as for my clit, maybe you should look before you speak. you can tell my doctor thank you the next time you see him. btw, he lost his job and his license and the last time i checked he was in jail....

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

The smeg issue, I just don't get. People harp on that one as if, the penis magically and uncontrollably exudes this fouls substance and the dude who has a foreskin all seem to not notice...

Lemme clue you gals and you cut dudes in one something: IF you got smeg on your uncut dick, your a fucking pig. Learn to bathe properly. These are the same guys who continuously smell like BO or, have a light taint of BO around them at all times... why?

Their pigs. Mommy and daddy never taught em how to bathe properly.

And you ladies, who have this aversion to said cocks, due to the possibility of the dreaded smeg (which you should take as a red flag, your dude is a fucking pig or, just stupid) Consider the fact that many many many women have hunks of foul smelling dreaded smeg hiding in their well hidden nooks and crannies.

Which I take as a sign when I see/smell it, that said lady is indeed a pig, who should be teamed up with one of the piggy dudes with a cheesy dick.

Lets face it, if flaps and folds were a reason for snipping and trimming a kids goodies, we'd be snipping and trimming our daughters as well as our sons.

as for the law.... ya know, I don't give a shit really, if you make it illegal, you'll just have blackmarket moyels roaming the back alleys with dirty blades and broken glass doing the biding of people with weird religious beliefs.

BUT!
I think they should stop trying to outlaw fem. cerc. as long as they approve of male cerc. Maybe, I wanna spare my daughter the embarrassment of having a cheesy cooch when she's older.... aint that my right?
:lol:

Which is better.... who cares. I like my clean, well bathed uncut dick. If you like your tough calloused uncut wiggle stick well, good for you.

I didn't cut my babies. Part of life is making painful choices and if he would choose to join up with some religious group who thinks god has commanded them all to chop off their foreskins.... Meh. So what. Like I'm gonna be able to stop em.

If its really that hard to teach your son proper cock maintenance, Quote frankly, you're a lazy parent.

Who's son will grow up to have a cheesy dick and BO.

We teach our lil girls proper hygiene, is it REALLY much different?
Soap, water, rinse, repeat daily. It's pretty easy.

Now you've made me remember all the horrifying cheesy surprises I've tripped over over the yrs with women.... Brrrrrr thank you very much.

Some women are just as piggy as some men are. It's not normal and it's not the fault of any skin flaps and folds. I promise.

It's because they're pigs.

 

[Rose]

The smeg issue, I just don't get. People harp on that one as if, the penis magically and uncontrollably exudes this fouls substance and the dude who has a foreskin all seem to not notice...

Lemme clue you gals and you cut dudes in one something: IF you got smeg on your uncut dick, your a fucking pig. Learn to bathe properly. These are the same guys who continuously smell like BO or, have a light taint of BO around them at all times... why?

Their pigs. Mommy and daddy never taught em how to bathe properly.

And you ladies, who have this aversion to said cocks, due to the possibility of the dreaded smeg (which you should take as a red flag, your dude is a fucking pig or, just stupid) Consider the fact that many many many women have hunks of foul smelling dreaded smeg hiding in their well hidden nooks and crannies.

Which I take as a sign when I see/smell it, that said lady is indeed a pig, who should be teamed up with one of the piggy dudes with a cheesy dick.

Lets face it, if flaps and folds were a reason for snipping and trimming a kids goodies, we'd be snipping and trimming our daughters as well as our sons.

as for the law.... ya know, I don't give a shit really, if you make it illegal, you'll just have blackmarket moyels roaming the back alleys with dirty blades and broken glass doing the biding of people with weird religious beliefs.

BUT!
I think they should stop trying to outlaw fem. cerc. as long as they approve of male cerc. Maybe, I wanna spare my daughter the embarrassment of having a cheesy cooch when she's older.... aint that my right?
:lol:

Which is better.... who cares. I like my clean, well bathed uncut dick. If you like your tough calloused uncut wiggle stick well, good for you.

I didn't cut my babies. Part of life is making painful choices and if he would choose to join up with some religious group who thinks god has commanded them all to chop off their foreskins.... Meh. So what. Like I'm gonna be able to stop em.

If its really that hard to teach your son proper cock maintenance, Quote frankly, you're a lazy parent.

Who's son will grow up to have a cheesy dick and BO.

We teach our lil girls proper hygiene, is it REALLY much different?
Soap, water, rinse, repeat daily. It's pretty easy.

Now you've made me remember all the horrifying cheesy surprises I've tripped over over the yrs with women.... Brrrrrr thank you very much.

Some women are just as piggy as some men are. It's not normal and it's not the fault of any skin flaps and folds. I promise.

It's because they're pigs.

you said this way better than i could verbalize. it's a hygeine issue in my opinion. dirty vagina is just as gross as dirty penis. bathing isn't really that hard...at least i don't think so, but i grew up in the south with rednecks who bathed in dirt. skin or no skin on guys or girls, you just don't let your funk build up and get gross. just bathe, at the very least use a baby whipe and sink wash it.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think perhaps, it goes back to tight assed parents who freak out when their little boys touch themselves. They grow up to be sexually repressed young men who fear touching themselves for fear of hellfire or some garbage mom and dad put in their heads.

You know your boy is in the shower beating off..... leave em the fuck alone, it's foreskin stretching and getting it really clean. Don't point it out, that they were in there to long or, make it some issue.

Once my son when he was little (like, 10 maybe) said "sorry I was in there so long" I replied as any good dad should, with the truth. "hey... washing our naughty bits is half the fun in life"

I swear he laughed all day. I will assume he is now a well adjusted very not sexually repressed adult with a fresh smelling dick.

People teach their kids that sex is dirty and if it feels good to wash your goodies you're probably going to hell or something, then society has these conversations about why we have smelly genitals....


I wonder what the statistical correlation is between people with smelly junk and how many had strict religious and/or sexually repressed parents?

 

[Eva_ChangeN]

I just find it interesting that the gov keeps making laws that they can't or won't enforce...like drug dealers. Haven't cured crack houses yet. So let's worry about weather parents want to trim a cock, and fight the same sex marriages, but don't worry about education or health of our citizens...

 

[alexa7]

with all of the issues in the world why on earth are they making such a big deal about that... lets find a cure for cancer or something... leave well enough alone already... no one holds a gun to a parents head and makes them circumcise their child... they should focus on enforcing other laws, instead of this money wasting nonsense.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

Maybe if we called it "trimming" people wouldn't get so worked up over it.

 

[Nordling]

A lot of the posts are about "freedom of choice." I'm all for that . . .

But think about this issue. Does the person GETTING the mutilated dick have a choice? We have to consider, there are and should be limits to what a "family" can do to their offspring. What if a cult popped up that thought it was cool to lop off their infants' left hands at birth? Is that freedom of choice?

As far as personal likes and dislikes regarding cut vs uncut, isn't a lot of that due to what we've been culturally exposed to? I hate okra but will fight for your right to make gumbo.

That kind of thinking likens this debate with that of abortion, in a sense. And it always comes back to the parents getting to decide for themselves.

I thought of that too, but really, I can't liken the two issues. One is about the rights of a woman to control her own body and the other is about the rights of an infant who is too young to make any decisions.

Practically speaking, I doubt this will become a law; there are just too many opinions--not to even get into the religious conflicts. Ethically, I think it should be illegal to perform unnecessary surgery on infants, but pragmatically, we have to continue to educate people on this issue rather than force them one way or the other.

 

[Malpine]

A lot of the posts are about "freedom of choice." I'm all for that . . .

But think about this issue. Does the person GETTING the mutilated dick have a choice?

I agree completely. Under no circumstances should someone have to live their entire life with a decision that their parents made for them. If I were unquestioned ruler of everything, any nonessential procedure that permanently alters a child's body would be illegal.

There's another issue no one's brought up - foreskin keeps the head from becoming callused and less sensitive over years of rubbing against clothing. Uncircumcised men get more nervous stimulation (and therefore more pleasure) through sex and masturbation.

As a circumcised male, I wish I had been given the opportunity to decide if I wanted a body part removed or not. I shower twice daily, wash after going to the bathroom, and wash my hands upwards of 50 times a day. Keeping another crevice clean wouldn't be a issue. I'd go so far as to say that anyone who can't keep it clean doesn't deserve to possibly procreate.

 

[Jupiter551]

Also, is it just me or do circumcised penises tend to be a little more bendy and crooked? Like there wasn't enough room for them to grow straight?

Why would they have less room? lol

Would also be really awkward to fuck if it came straight out of the body at a 90 degree angle, I guess doggy would work lol.

 

[Lydia_Deetz]

I just find it interesting that the gov keeps making laws that they can't or won't enforce...like drug dealers. Haven't cured crack houses yet. So let's worry about weather parents want to trim a cock, and fight the same sex marriages, but don't worry about education or health of our citizens...

Your so right darling!

I live in a state that has spent the last 3 months putting together legislation to ban gay marriage, nevermind it is already enacted at fed levels. Its like they want to drive it in the ground.

All government needs to be doing now is focusing on job development and getting our economy out of this horrendous slump, not beating dead horses. What's next for them to decide for us? Our religion? I for one am sick of them telling capable citizens what they can and cannot do when it comes to personal issues.

BTW all this smeg talk is making me

 

[Jupiter551]

After all, it's purely cosmetic...having a foreskin offers no medical risk unless you can provide evidence otherwise.

Well define evidence...scientific reports are always open to debate, and clearly the SF govt seems to think they know better than the World Health Organisation or Centre for Disease Control because in a 2007 report examining whether circumcision helped curtail the spread of STDs (particularly HIV) it found that it did, and came to such conclusions as

Modelling studies suggest that universal male circumcision in sub-Saharan Africa
could prevent 5.7 million new cases of HIV infection and 3 million deaths over 20 years
vii

It went on to recommend that wherever possible resources should be allocated towards free male circumcision :dontknow: Maybe those moyel lobbyists are earning their keep afterall.
http://www.who.int/hiv/mediacentre/MCrecommendations_en.pdf

The CDC says

Several types of research have documented that male circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex.

and goes on to say

Lack of male circumcision has also been associated with sexually transmitted genital ulcer disease and chlamydia, infant urinary tract infections, penile cancer, and cervical cancer in female partners of uncircumcised men [1]. The latter two conditions are related to human papillomavirus (HPV) infection. Transmission of this virus is also associated with lack of male circumcision.

Also

A large retrospective study of circumcision in nearly 15,000 infants found neonatal circumcision to be highly cost-effective, considering the estimated number of averted cases of infant urinary tract infection and lifetime incidence of HIV infection, penile cancer, balanoposthitis, and phimosis. The cost of postneonatal circumcision was 10-fold the cost of neonatal circumcision [37].

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

As I said all studies can be (and will be) disputed by someone...but scientific evidence by reputable sources does exist.

We have to consider, there are and should be limits to what a "family" can do to their offspring. What if a cult popped up that thought it was cool to lop off their infants' left hands at birth? Is that freedom of choice?

It's pretty spurious to try to liken removing a piece of skin to amputation. Of course there are and should be limits...it doesn't do anyone any favors to legislate ridiculously regarding those limits. Evidence that circumcision causes any lasting harm to babies is inconclusive at best.

It's also alleged, but inconclusive, that video games adversely affect grades, some even claim they cause lasting developmental harm - do we need the government to make Xbox illegal too?

Give me circumsized penis, or give me no penis at all.

Asha you crack me up that was awesome :mrgreen:

"Give me Liberty, or give me Death!" - Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775
"Give me circumsized penis, or give me no penis at all." - Asha Snow, May 19, 2011

 

[Bocefish]

There is ample evidence to support both sides of this argument, which is precisely why this personal and private matter should be left up to the parents.

There's a industrial engineer that sells foreskin rejuvenation kits. I first heard about him through a show called 'Strange Sex' on TLC channel. He makes enough selling his product to support a family of 4 in a fairly affluent town. http://tlctugger.com/

Being circumcised, I have zero regrets but occasionally wonder how much sensitivity has been lost.

I have to call :text-bs: that foreskin helps scoop out other's semen though.

 

[Zoomer]

Hmm, I will concede a point - but not upon the evidence you provide.

The WHO viewpoint upon HIV spread in sub Saharan Africa is not their view for the world. It is for a specific set of issues faced within the region - poor education, poor hygiene, poor medical aid, poor safe sex practices potentially due to poor education or regional norms. If you read the entire document and do not pick out highlighted parts which are taken out of context, it points out various factors.
1) Circumcision reduces the risk of being infected by HIV. It is not a preventative measure, and being thought of as such is highly dangerous. Infection rates within circumcised populations remains high.
2) Circumcision is being looked at due to the simple fact that education, provision of condoms and other methods of prevention, as well access to medical help seems to be completely ignored and not taken up. Therefore encouraging circumcision may help reduce the prevalence of aids, and the burden spreading infection places upon the society.
3) Morally, anyone being offered circumcision, including minors, should be free to make their own decision understanding both the risks and benefits without coercion. It states for infants, the parents should be fully informed. It points out that benefits from infant circumcision will not impact for 20 years, more than enough time for the child to be old enough to make their own informed decision whilst still a minor. It points out that circumcision at infancy is the safest, and cheapest, option available (for obvious reasons). Complications increase with age...

So medical benefits are you have a reduced risk of infection from a number of conditions. Some due to removal of the area as it is suitable for breeding bacteria - some due to toughening of the skin, or removal of cells more susceptible to infection (HIV!). It would be interesting to see whether hygiene, education and safe sexual practices play a more significant role in reducing infections compared to circumcision...

I would not be surprised if they were, by far. :thumbleft:

Again, I'm not against circumcision - I honestly don't give a monkeys. I found some people's tone insulting regarding perceived "if it's not cut, then you're filthy" comments, and the general "I will make decisions for my child" (I personally have no issue with this either, but I do find the disagreement with being told what you can / can't do by government vs parents essentially doing the same for the child, who has no say!)

Who cares whether SF make it illegal. Travel is cheap, nip over the border and have it done elsewhere... Now find the statistics about complications, issues and costs for circumcision for an infant and for a child, and see what the value of "consulting the person to have it done" may cost... Of course, if I were to have it done, I'd rather have it done when an infant... for the obvious reason. I wouldn't fucking remember it (I have a HUGE phobia of needles and blood).

 

[JickyJuly]

Am I the only one who gets all smitten with PaulieWalnuts every time he posts?

 

[Lydia_Deetz]

Am I the only one who gets all smitten with PaulieWalnuts every time he posts?

LOL, I do too

There is something really manly about his post's that get me everytime!

 

[PrincessDaisy]

i have been with only one uncircumcised guy and it made me cringe cause i wonder what was in there so i opted out.

pubic hair protects from bacteria and foreign objects like the hairs in your nose or your eye lashes. but we have clothes now and we take showers daily. (at least most of us do) so shaving isn't something that will hurt you. I dont see foreskin being much different.

so if want to circumcise your kid go for it. drs know what they are doing anyways they went thought shit tons of school. and if they say its safe i trust them.

 

[Bocefish]

Out of curiosity, I did some quick on-line Googlin' and found out that not only are most men that have had adult circumcisions now happier, but so are their spouses due to the cleanliness and overall look. They said the loss of sensation was negligible. YMMV

http://www.circinfo.net/men_circumcised_as_adults_tell_it_as_it_is.html

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

The difference in the angle of the dangle you might notice on a cut whammy bar vs. an uncut one could be, in most cases, due to the cutter hacking into the frenulum preputii penis.

The frenulum under the head of the penis is often abnormally short or thick or tight, and an adult male has to have it cut, via a frenectomy, which frees the foreskin somewhat, and, changes the angle of an erect penis.

So, the "angle" or even the bend of a penis that has had the frenulum cut at a very young age does grow with that lack of restriction underneath to be in many cases, a dangle at a different angle.

One can go a whole life with an abnormally short or tight frenulum and not actually notice, and any uncut willies you have seen that have a weird angle could be because of several things; The aforementioned frenulum, or the penis actually has been broken or partly broken (it happens) and scar tissue has created a bend.

If you are considering circumcision, (and the reason many men do is because of a troublesome frenulum and a lack of a good doctor) a severe frenectomy once healed can allow the foreskin to retract much farther and, stay there. ( the frenulum acts as a bungee cord, to retract it naturally) This operation is simple, and will give the dude the illusion of being cut without actually removing the foreskin.

A frenectomy is usually done because a short one tends to rip (yes, owch) or not allow the foreskin to be pulled back at all. Having it cut MAY be all the "circumcision" you need. Once it's done there is no "auto retraction" of the foreskin, so you can pretend to be cut to see if it suits you, or have the best of both.

You smitten ladies may swoon now.

 

[AmberCutie]

The frenulum under the head of the penis is often abnormally short or thick or tight, and an adult male has to have it cut, via a frenectomy, which frees the foreskin somewhat, and, changes the angle of an erect penis.

Teehee, I had a frenectomy when I was like 11. That's also what it's called when you get the frenulum that connects your upper gums to your lip cut out. I still have great sensation. :lol:

 

[Jupiter551]

The frenulum under the head of the penis is often abnormally short or thick or tight, and an adult male has to have it cut, via a frenectomy, which frees the foreskin somewhat, and, changes the angle of an erect penis.

Teehee, I had a frenectomy when I was like 11. That's also what it's called when you get the frenulum that connects your upper gums to your lip cut out. I still have great sensation. :lol:

I've always wanted that little webbed thing gone!

 

[SweepTheLeg]

I am circumcised, I was circumcised as a baby therefore i don't remember the pain of it. I don't believe my parents got my circumcised because of anything religion related but I will say if I had to wait until I was old enough to make my own personal choice whether I wanted it or not I don't want to think about the pain I'd be in and the trouble of any of the complications that follow.

Its a personal choice that parents have and get to make, and if we make this illegal my question is whats next? This could easily snowball into other instances where parents are in trouble for how they raise their children. I still am waiting for them to make it illegal to smoke in your household if you have kids because of 2nd hand smoke.

 

[Jupiter551]

I still am waiting for them to make it illegal to smoke in your household if you have kids because of 2nd hand smoke.

Having a mental blank but that is either already a law somewhere, or it's been proposed and shot down (for the time being). It's illegal in some places (california I think for one) to smoke with kids in a car. Which I understand - but more and more the government takes responsibility for making common sense decisions away from the individual and legislates it - it's a nanny state.

I'm looking forward to the No Sharp Corners Bill, and outlawing concrete because someone might fall over.

 

[Rose]

You smitten ladies may swoon now.

i've swooned