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San Francisco Wants To Criminalize Infant Circumcision

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Shaun__ said:
In the parts of the world that practice female circumcision they think it is normal and object strongly to people trying to change things also. Society advances because people like me stand up and say things like this are bullshit. The 19 studies you are waving in my face are all on high risk people. The first study I showed you and the other 16 I showed you are all on the general population. The sheer number of people who received no benefit at all is way larger than the tiny little pocket that does. If you want to reduce std transmission encourage condom use among high risk groups.

a) Comparing female circumcision to make circumcision is grossely inappropriate, and pretty disrespectful to those fighting to stop the practice, not to mention the victims of it. One is a harmless parental choice, the other is a barbaric, horrendously painful mutilation. Just because they share the word "circumcision" doesn't mean they have anything of substance in common. Stop comparing them, it's insensitive and ignorant.

b) those 16 and 19 you keep going on about were all part of the same report. The 16 were inconclusive, look it up in a dictionary. It means there was no conclusive evidence one way or another. That isn't a fail, at most that's a stalemate. The 19 studies on high risk populations carry FAR more weight, because you're looking at people who have STI's. Obviously if you look at a group of people with a lower rate of STI's then the significance of circumcision in prevention of their transmission is going to become statistically less significant, ie INCONCLUSIVE. It's like conducting a series of studies of what type of vehicles are likely to be involved in very high-speed crashes, and the supercar category showed a statistical leap over the freaking minivan category DERP :woops:

c) You think condom use isn't encouraged as a way of curbing STI's? Really? What do you think the logistics are like to distribute condoms to entire African nations, on a daily basis, and how do you ensure theyre used? It may not be perfect but since scientific evidence has proven circumcision CONCLUSIVELY reduces transmissions of STI's it is a practical one-shot measure that can save lives and slow transmission.

d) Until you have a son you don't have any right to tell other people to circumcise or not (actually even then you don't). If you want to bitch at your parents for doing it to you then be my guest. I'm not for or against it - I really couldn't give a shit either way, but if it saves lives in developing countries (and evidence unequivocally proves that it does) then that's a positive about it.
 
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blackxrose said:
Since the dawn of time it's been the PARENTS' choice to do things like this.

Damn, what a great fucking reason to do something. Lets go back to human sacrifices too, if the parents are okay with it. Maybe it will lower gas prices.
 
Jupiter551 said:
a) Comparing female circumcision to make circumcision is grossely inappropriate, and pretty disrespectful to those fighting to stop the practice, not to mention the victims of it. One is a harmless parental choice, the other is a barbaric, horrendously painful mutilation. Just because they share the word "circumcision" doesn't mean they have anything of substance in common. Stop comparing them, it's insensitive and ignorant.

So because you think it is wrong then it is barbaric, but things I think are wrong are fine because you think it is. And like I said in a earlier post female circumcision can be a little are a pin prick. You should actually try to learn about the cultures you are accusing of being barbaric.

Jupiter551 said:
b) those 16 and 19 you keep going on about were all part of the same report. The 16 were inconclusive, look it up in a dictionary. It means there was no conclusive evidence one way or another. That isn't a fail, at most that's a stalemate. The 19 studies on high risk populations carry FAR more weight, because you're looking at people who have STI's. Obviously if you look at a group of people with a lower rate of STI's then the significance of circumcision in prevention of their transmission is going to become statistically less significant, ie INCONCLUSIVE. It's like conducting a series of studies of what type of vehicles are likely to be involved in very high-speed crashes, and the supercar category showed a statistical leap over the freaking minivan category DERP :woops:

Inconclusive means it did not help or hurt in a statistically significant way. High risk groups in cars would be drunk drivers. If you did a study on them you would find walking to be way safer and ban cars for everyone. You do not understand the studies you are quoting.

Jupiter551 said:
c) You think condom use isn't encouraged as a way of curbing STI's? Really? What do you think the logistics are like to distribute condoms to entire African nations, on a daily basis, and how do you ensure theyre used? It may not be perfect but since scientific evidence has proven circumcision CONCLUSIVELY reduces transmissions of STI's it is a practical one-shot measure that can save lives and slow transmission.

Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse

Jupiter551 said:
d) Until you have a son you don't have any right to tell other people to circumcise or not (actually even then you don't). If you want to bitch at your parents for doing it to you then be my guest. I'm not for or against it - I really couldn't give a shit either way, but if it saves lives in developing countries (and evidence unequivocally proves that it does) then that's a positive about it.

I do not live in a developing country, but doctors are known to do it in this country against parents wishes. I also oppose beating children with canes, is that okay or do I need to stop that as well?
 
Shaun__ said:
blackxrose said:
Since the dawn of time it's been the PARENTS' choice to do things like this.

Damn, what a great fucking reason to do something. Lets go back to human sacrifices too, if the parents are okay with it. Maybe it will lower gas prices.
Great way to take that out of context. This meant that as a parent, it's your choice to do this or not. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you're 1 week old you can't exactly choose this for yourself, you need parents to do it. :woops:
 
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Shaun__ said:
Jupiter551 said:
a) Comparing female circumcision to make circumcision is grossely inappropriate, and pretty disrespectful to those fighting to stop the practice, not to mention the victims of it. One is a harmless parental choice, the other is a barbaric, horrendously painful mutilation. Just because they share the word "circumcision" doesn't mean they have anything of substance in common. Stop comparing them, it's insensitive and ignorant.

So because you think it is wrong then it is barbaric, but things I think are wrong are fine because you think it is. And like I said in a earlier post female circumcision can be a little are a pin prick. You should actually try to learn about the cultures you are accusing of being barbaric.
I really credited you with more intelligence than trying to compare male circumcision to female genital mutilation which RARELY is a "pin prick", and more often leads to a multitude of health issues including but not limited to death. I also credited you with more intelligence than to equate medical male circumcision with beating children using canes. My mistake.

*I* don't understand the study? Considering it concluded that as a whole, circumcision in the countries observed was an unequivically beneficial step, I'd say you didn't understand it. How you didn't understand it frankly boggles my mind because it couldn't have been stated much more plainly.

As for your "pinprick"
Female genital mutilation (FGM), also known as female genital cutting and female circumcision, is defined by the World Health Organization (WHO) as "all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."[1]
FGM is typically carried out on girls from a few days old to puberty. It may take place in a hospital, but is usually performed, without anaesthesia, by a traditional circumciser using a knife, razor, or scissors. According to the WHO, it is practiced in 28 countries in western, eastern, and north-eastern Africa, in parts of the Middle East, and within some immigrant communities in Europe, North America, and Australasia.[2] The WHO estimates that 100–140 million women and girls around the world have experienced the procedure, including 92 million in Africa.[1]
The WHO has offered four classifications of FGM. The main three are Type I, removal of the clitoral hood, almost invariably accompanied by removal of the clitoris itself (clitoridectomy); Type II, removal of the clitoris and inner labia; and Type III (infibulation), removal of all or part of the inner and outer labia, and usually the clitoris, and the fusion of the wound, leaving a small hole for the passage of urine and menstrual blood—the fused wound is opened for intercourse and childbirth.[3] Around 85 percent of women who undergo FGM experience Types I and II, and 15 percent Type III, though Type III is the most common procedure in several countries, including Sudan, Somalia, and Djibouti.[4] Several miscellaneous acts are categorized as Type IV. These range from a symbolic pricking or piercing of the clitoris or labia, to cauterization of the clitoris, cutting into the vagina to widen it (gishiri cutting), and introducing corrosive substances to tighten it.[3]
Opposition to FGM focuses on human rights violations, lack of informed consent, and health risks, which include fatal hemorrhaging, epidermoid cysts, recurrent urinary and vaginal infections, chronic pain, and obstetrical complications.

The fact that you have the nerve to compare that to snipping off foreskin in a hospital fucking disturbs me.
 
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Nah... this isn't barbaric at all.





As opposed to male circumcision, female circumcision has no medical benefit whatsoever and is done to remove any pleasure the woman may have during sex. Comparing the two seems ludicrous to me.
 
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People talk about freedom for the parents, but what about freedom for the infant? Don't even compare this to abortion, there is a difference between a fetus and a living, breathing child. I don't even really like babies (sorry, I think they are ugly and annoying) but circumcision can have complications that end in death. Is it worth the risk? I also really really really hate when girls say that they hate uncircumcised cock. Because that attitude may result in some poor baby's death. Can't we just, for once, accept the human body the way it was made? And celebrate that, along with alterations an adult may choose to make to themselves for themselves? Fuck a parent's choice to chose to put their baby at risk.
 
... The advent of MRSA in epidemic proportions increases risks associated with male neonatal circumcision beyond those previously contemplated and further increases the desirability of the non-circumcision option. MRSA and other antibiotic-resistant varieties of SA, such as vancomycin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (VRSA), increase risk, including death, to newborn circumcised boys. In view of this increased risk, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists should review their policy (2002) of offering elective medically unnecessary non-therapeutic neonatal circumcision at parental request.

... Medical practitioners must consider the epidemic status of MRSA and exercise their independent judgment regarding the performance of non-therapeutic neonatal circumcision. There is an ethical duty to not perform scientifically invalid medical treatment, especially when it puts the patient at risk. Doctors must act in the best interests of their child-patients regardless of parental requests. Doctors may conscientiously object to the performance of non-therapeutic circumcision of children.

I did not know you guys wanted visual aids.

Initial presentation of post-circumcision
staphylococcal necrotizing fasciitis​
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Patient after surgical debridement of infected tissue​
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Deaths​

Dustin Evans Jr. - death from anaesthetic​
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Dustin Evans Jr was born in Cleveland, Ohio in October 1998. He was circumcised by a Dr Russell soon after, who took so much shaft skin that the scar healed as a wideband stricture (a tight "collar") around his penis, preventing him from urinating. When he was given sevoflourane, an anaesthetic, in order to "revise" his circumcision, he immediately died of cardiopulmonary arrest.

His father said, "You think, 'What could go wrong with a circumcision?' The next thing I know, he's dead."​

Jamaal Coleson, dead from anaesthetic (?) at less than two years old in Manhattan, May 3, 2011​
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P2idt.jpg

Paediatr Child Health Vol 12 No 4 April 2007
Coroner's Corner Circumcision: A minor procedure?

Paediatric Death Review Committee: Office of the Chief Coroner of Ontario

A male infant at 37 weeks' gestation was born ... weighing 3.9 kg, with Apgar scores of seven at 1 min and nine at 5 min, Prenatally mild bilateral dilation of renal pelvises and ureters was noted on ultra­sound. A urology consultation at 36 weeks' gestation sug­gested a possible normal variant ...

The baby was bottle-fed and was reported to he doing well when he was circumcised using a PlastiBell ring (Hollister, USA) at 10:00 on the seventh day of life (Figure 1).
Correctly positioned PlastiBell ring
Figure 1. (Click to enlarge)

Local anaesthetic was not used. Some slight ooz­ing was noted during the procedure but it was not a problem at discharge.

Five hours later, the parents returned to their family doc­tor with the infant, reporting that he was very irritable and had blue discolouration below the umbilicus [navel] when he cried. The doctor confirmed this observation and noted that the penis was slightly swollen. ... He had several loose stools, and it could not be determined with certainty whether he had voided [emptied his bladder]. ...The baby was subsequently discharged home.

The infant was brought to a different hospital 14 h after the circumcision. He was now noted to be extremely irrita­ble, with marked swelling of the penis and with marked swelling and cyanosis [blueness] of the scrotum and perineum [region behind the scrotum]. He had grunting respirations and was cyanotic below the umbilicus ... He was transferred to a tertiary care centre, where the bladder was identified as being distended to the level of the umbilicus, The PlastiBell ring was removed 16 h after the circumcision and a catheter was passed. The bladder was drained and the bluish coloration below the umbilicus sub­sided. Urine volume was not recorded. Over the next few hours, the infant went into septic shock with purpura fulminans, and went on to develop multiorgan failure and dis­seminated intravascular coagulopathy [a state of increased propensity for blood-clot formation] ... He died seven days after his circumcision from hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy [damage to cells in the brain and spinal cord from getting too little oxygen]. ...

Complications of meatal obstruction [blockage of the urinary opening of the glans] with the PlastiBell technique have been previously described in the literature (1,2). Necrotizing fasciitis as a complication of circumci­sion is rare, and all cases reported seem to be associated with the PlastiBell technique (2,3) The finding of cyanosis below the umbilicus after circumcision due to meatal obstruction caused by a misplaced PlastiBell ring resulting in bladder distension and obstruction of venous return has also recently been described (1). A review of circumcision complications suggest that these may occur mote frequently than is conventionally believed (2,4)

The members of the Paediatric Death Review Committee of the Office of the Chief Coroner of Ontario were collectively aware of complications from their own institutions, including two children with necrosis of the glans, two infants requiring transfusion, one infant with a buried penis secondary to circumcision, numerous cases of retention of a PlastiBell ring, one infant with a slipped PlastiBell ring causing a penile tourniquet, and one infant with meatal obstruction due to a misplaced PlastiBell ring (Figures 2A and 2B).
Slipped PlastiBell ring causing a) tourniquet, b) meatal obstruction
Figure 2. (Click to enlarge)

None of these complications were reported in the medical literature and are therefore not available in a retrospective literature review. It is concern­ing that none of the initial three physicians who saw this infant, including the physician who performed the procedure, identified this problem as a meatal obstruction, although they were all concerned about, a possible link with the recent circumcision.

In this infant, there was no description of the glans by the physician removing the PlastiBeil ring. If the foreskin is pulled too tight, then there will be considerable tension pulling the ring against the glans, thus compressing the ure­thra and making urination difficult or impossible. This is the mechanism described in the case report by Ly and Sankaran (I) We propose the mechanism shown in Figure 2B, given the rapid onset of symptoms, suggesting a complete obstruction. These coukl be differentiated clinically. In Figure 2A, the meatus would be visible in the mid­dle of the ring and a catheter would be difficult or impossible to pass. In Figure 2B, the meatus would not be visible. The management of both complications would be the immediate removal of the PlastiBell ring. Perhaps a prospective surveillance study by the Canadian Paediatric Society of the complications of circumcision is warranted. Such a study would provide more accurate information for the ethical requirement of informed consent.

You claim this to prevent STDs, well how many babies are in danger of that? If an adult was to engage in activities that are likely to infect them , and they do not want to use a condom then let those people get a circumcision since they are going to be much more likely to have no life threatening complications.
 
What does MRSA and Necrotizing Fasciitis (Flesh-Eating Bacteria) have to do with the discussion? Those infections can occur both with and without a surgical procedure in some hospitals.

From your own quote: Necrotizing fasciitis as a complication of circumci­sion is rare

As a parent, I would opt NOT to have ANY surgery performed on my child in a hospital where those risks were prevalent unless it was a life or death type thing.
 
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Bocefish said:
What does MRSA and Necrotizing Fasciitis (Flesh-Eating Bacteria) have to do with the discussion? Those infections can occur both with and without a surgical procedure in some hospitals.

From your own quote: Necrotizing fasciitis as a complication of circumci­sion is rare

As a parent, I would opt NOT to have ANY surgery performed on my child in a hospital where those risks were prevalent unless it was a life or death type thing.


You are cutting open the skin and allowing it a place to enter when you are performing circumcisions. You should also know that the bacteria that cause those infections live on everyone, but some hospitals are cesspools of the more resistant strains. As to the rarity of this happening I would not want to be the father saying, "You think, 'What could go wrong with a circumcision?' The next thing I know, he's dead.". And again I am going to point out the pro-penis cutting people keep telling me this is to reduce the spread of STDs. So why would you even perform this on a child? Why do something that is so unnecessary and has a chance of death. What kind of parents when informed that their baby may die or be mutilated from complications of this procedure say, "It probably will not happen and studies on high risk groups say he will be 40% less likely to receive an STD, so start cutting Doc."
 
Shaun__ said:
Bocefish said:
What does MRSA and Necrotizing Fasciitis (Flesh-Eating Bacteria) have to do with the discussion? Those infections can occur both with and without a surgical procedure in some hospitals.

From your own quote: Necrotizing fasciitis as a complication of circumci­sion is rare

As a parent, I would opt NOT to have ANY surgery performed on my child in a hospital where those risks were prevalent unless it was a life or death type thing.


You are cutting open the skin and allowing it a place to enter when you are performing circumcisions. You should also know that the bacteria that cause those infections live on everyone, but some hospitals are cesspools of the more resistant strains. As to the rarity of this happening I would not want to be the father saying, "You think, 'What could go wrong with a circumcision?' The next thing I know, he's dead.". And again I am going to point out the pro-penis cutting people keep telling me this is to reduce the spread of STDs. So why would you even perform this on a child? Why do something that is so unnecessary and has a chance of death. What kind of parents when informed that their baby may die or be mutilated from complications of this procedure say, "It probably will not happen and studies on high risk groups say he will be 40% less likely to receive an STD, so start cutting Doc."
Yes, and the neonatal period is probably about the most delicate time in a child's life. They're just beginning to develop their immune system, so why open them to possible infections?
 
As I stated earlier, any surgery can have complications resulting in death. It's every parent's job to make those medical decisions for their children by learning everything they possibly can and weigh the risks vs. benefit to make a knowledgeable, informed decision. For the sake of arguing what this topic originated as, I am not for nor against male circumcision, I am pro-choice. It's a personal parental decision that is none of the government's bidness in such matters. I defer to the professionals in instances like these along with my own experience as being a male. The following is the most up-to-date pros and cons I could find.

Pros: Five Health Benefits–
Hygiene
Decreased risk of urinary tract infections
Prevention of penile problems
Decreased risk of penile cancer
Decreased risk of sexually transmitted diseases

Cons: Physical and Psychological Arguments–
Health benefits are exaggerated or possibly even untrue, say some opponents.
Circumcision can be painful and traumatic, changing infant behavior.
Potential interference with sexual function in adulthood

Much ado about circumcision: A pediatric urologist’s view

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on- ... _blog.html

Frequently writing on faith issues from my vantage as a co-founder of a Hindu advocacy group, my faith and family, interests and occupation overlap. A Hindu voice has long been absent in our nation’s dialogue on many contemporary issues, and I endeavor to add just one where I can. But in the circumcision debate, I check my religion at the door and take a seat inside. The doctor, a pediatric urologist, is in.

Nearly every day, I perform a circumcision. During my discussions with the family prior to the procedure, I discuss the position statement put forth by two organizations that have published evidence based policy statements on circumcision: the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Urological Association. Both statements state clearly the facts: neonatal circumcision reduces the risk of urinary tract infection in the first year of life, eliminates the risk of penile cancer, and significantly reduces the risk of syphilis and HIV transmission. I tell the families in the same breath that these statements also caution that the urinary tract infection risk in uncircumcised boys is as low as 1%, and that access to good hygiene also prevents penile cancer. Of epidemiological interest, despite the fact that regions in China and Scandinavia do not practice circumcision for newborns, the incidence of penile cancer is exceedingly high in the former and very low in the latter, presumably due to excellent cradle to grave medical care in Scandinanvian countries. And while circumcision’s reduction of HIV risk by 60 percent has led the World Health Organization to embrace the procedure as a critical step, it can never substitute for safe sex practices.

I echo the ambivalence of the profession to which I belong when families ask about the procedure. I present the facts. And nearly 80 percent of the time in the United States, the parents will choose circumcision for their child. I will receive as much for doing the procedure as I would for seeing any patient in the office for fifteen minutes. It is not an income source. But I offer the service because families truly, deeply, and sometimes, desperately, want the procedure for their son. And if they decide to go forward, I will place an antibiotic cream on the penile skin and then inject an additional milliliter of lidocaine to provide enough anesthesia that most children barely whimper, though some will cry.

The data is mixed, there is no wrong or right answer. Families deal with the nebulous every day and make a decision that is right for their children. But to me, the inanity over the circumcision debate lies also in its ignorance of medical realities. If a child has had recurrent urinary tract infections or a lower urinary tract anomaly, circumcision can protect the child from the risk of renal damage by nearly 10 to 15 fold. If a child has a hypospadias, an anomaly where the urethral opening opens along the shaft of the penis rather than at the tip, then I will use the foreskin to reconstruct the urethra, and a circumcision results. And while my clinic is full of children, also, with partially done circumcisions, adhesions that have formed, and urethral openings that have narrowed after circumcision requiring additional surgery and health care dollars, my clinic is just as full of children with foreskin that is painfully infected, scarred with lichen sclerosis, ballooning, torn and tight that may necessitate a circumcision..

A circumcision in childhood is a rapid outpatient procedure; a circumcision after adulthood can be traumatic, painful, and substantially more expensive. A procedure costing $250 in the newborn period would cost $5000 in adulthood due to the need for anesthesia and perioperative care. Any type of blanket ban on a circumcision until the age of consent so ignores the real medical necessities of circumcision in some cases, that the concept is beyond contemplation; it is medically irresponsible and dangerous.

Circumcision rates will drop naturally if the medical data disproves putative benefits. There is no circumcision industry or lobby that influences or supports the medical profession, buying the procedure’s perpetuity. The procedure lives because there are some benefits and Americans have rendered the procedure a cultural norm. I am well aware that our colleagues in Canada, England, and France, to name a few, snicker at the American propensity to cut foreskin and believe that circumcisions are overdone in this country. Many pediatricians and pediatric urologists here in the States will even agree.
But the concept of banning the procedure does not enjoy credibility even overseas where they are not commonly done, simply because circumcision has been performed for five thousand years and is intertwined with faith, preference, and cultural realities. The current publicity given to the stunt in San Francisco frightens me not for its medical ignorance, but for its overt and retrograde anti-Semitism. The animated depictions of the Jewish ritual bris--the innuendo eliciting comparisons to genital mutilation--are overwrought and shocking.

There is room for a healthy debate on the medical necessity for circumcision and whether it should be performed as routine. Any answer lies in a robust review of properly performed population studies that control for confounding factors. Indeed, it was just such trials that confirmed the spectacular benefit of a circumcision for reducing the transmission of HIV. We doctors already do not encourage newborn circumcisions as opposed to a generation before us that mandated them. And we even talk families out of circumcisions if they are at all hesitant. But never could we support a comprehensive ban for a procedure that has established benefits for certain children. And because we must empower parents to make choices for their children--they are difficult decisions with long term implications--but decisions parents make everyday.

The industry dedicated to cirumcision’s end, seems more a misdirected passion, based on a medically dubious altruism at best, and anti-Semitism at its worst. And these voices will, undoubtedly, alienate reasoned, thoughtful voices that could begin an enlightened dialogue.

ASEEM SHUKLA | JUN 10, 2011 9:21 AM
 
Bocefish said:
As I stated earlier, any surgery can have complications resulting in death. It's every parent's job to make those medical decisions for their children by learning everything they possibly can and weigh the risks vs. benefit to make a knowledgeable, informed decision. For the sake of arguing what this topic originated as, I am not for nor against male circumcision, I am pro-choice. It's a personal parental decision that is none of the government's bidness in such matters. I defer to the professionals in instances like these along with my own experience as being a male. The following is the most up-to-date pros and cons I could find.

I am against circumcision, but I am not trying force people to stop doing them. I am trying to convince people to decide not to on their on.
 
Shaun__ said:
I am against circumcision, but I am not trying force people to stop doing them. I am trying to convince people to decide not to on their on.
I don't recall any proposed law to enforce circumcision :think: ergo, people already decide on their own.

The fact that you just said you're trying to convince people NOT to curcimsize on their own. Is contradictory in the extreme. You're not trying to convince them to decide on their own, you're twisting facts and comparing circumcision to FGM in a sensationalist way to convince them of what YOU think. That's hardly wanting them to decide on their own.
 
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Jupiter551 said:
Shaun__ said:
I am against circumcision, but I am not trying force people to stop doing them. I am trying to convince people to decide not to on their on.
I don't recall any proposed law to enforce circumcision :think: ergo, people already decide on their own.

The fact that you just said you're trying to convince people NOT to curcimsize on their own. Is contradictory in the extreme. You're not trying to convince them to decide on their own, you're twisting facts and comparing circumcision to FGM in a sensationalist way to convince them of what YOU think. That's hardly wanting them to decide on their own.
Not sure, but I think he meant "on their on." :D
 
Jupiter551 said:
Shaun__ said:
I am against circumcision, but I am not trying force people to stop doing them. I am trying to convince people to decide not to on their on.
I don't recall any proposed law to enforce circumcision :think: ergo, people already decide on their own.

The fact that you just said you're trying to convince people NOT to curcimsize on their own. Is contradictory in the extreme. You're not trying to convince them to decide on their own, you're twisting facts and comparing circumcision to FGM in a sensationalist way to convince them of what YOU think. That's hardly wanting them to decide on their own.

Which facts did I twist? The child with some of his skin removed or the dead children? Complications that extreme are rare, but they do happen as does accidental penis removal. If you are talking about the studies neither the one I posted or the ones you posted that were on the general population showed conclusive health benefits for doing it. They did show if you are in a high risk group you could reduce the chances of STDs from unsafe acts, but not as well as a condom would reduce your risks. I was also telling the truth about the pin prick, it is practiced by people trying to end what they view as wrong, while still meeting what they view as a religious obligation.
 
Shaun__ said:
Jupiter551 said:
Shaun__ said:
I am against circumcision, but I am not trying force people to stop doing them. I am trying to convince people to decide not to on their on.
I don't recall any proposed law to enforce circumcision :think: ergo, people already decide on their own.

The fact that you just said you're trying to convince people NOT to curcimsize on their own. Is contradictory in the extreme. You're not trying to convince them to decide on their own, you're twisting facts and comparing circumcision to FGM in a sensationalist way to convince them of what YOU think. That's hardly wanting them to decide on their own.

Which facts did I twist? The child with some of his skin removed or the dead children? Complications that extreme are rare, but they do happen as does accidental penis removal. If you are talking about the studies neither the one I posted or the ones you posted that were on the general population showed conclusive health benefits for doing it. They did show if you are in a high risk group you could reduce the chances of STDs from unsafe acts, but not as well as a condom would reduce your risks. I was also telling the truth about the pin prick, it is practiced by people trying to end what they view as wrong, while still meeting what they view as a religious obligation.
You sensationalised very rare occurrences, and according to the best available sociological data, 99% of female genital mutilation is type I, II, or III - none of those are pinpricks, typically don't use anaesthetic, aren't conducted by medical professionals, use implements ranging from scissors to sharpened rocks, and have a significant rate of death, infertility, and lifelong pain. You should feel ashamed to compare that to male circumcision as it is widely practiced.
 
Jupiter551 said:
You sensationalised very rare occurrences, and according to the best available sociological data, 99% of female genital mutilation is type I, II, or III - none of those are pinpricks, typically don't use anaesthetic, aren't conducted by medical professionals, use implements ranging from scissors to sharpened rocks, and have a significant rate of death, infertility, and lifelong pain. You should feel ashamed to compare that to male circumcision as it is widely practiced.

I know I said both should be stopped and feel no shame at thinking all babies, even boys need protection from a cruel world. You seem to be ignoring the dead boys I told you about however. What is the number of dead boys a year you consider to be acceptable? If they were rhinos would you care?
 
Shaun__ said:
Jupiter551 said:
You sensationalised very rare occurrences, and according to the best available sociological data, 99% of female genital mutilation is type I, II, or III - none of those are pinpricks, typically don't use anaesthetic, aren't conducted by medical professionals, use implements ranging from scissors to sharpened rocks, and have a significant rate of death, infertility, and lifelong pain. You should feel ashamed to compare that to male circumcision as it is widely practiced.

I know I said both should be stopped and feel no shame at thinking all babies, even boys need protection from a cruel world. You seem to be ignoring the dead boys I told you about however. What is the number of dead boys a year you consider to be acceptable? If they were rhinos would you care?

No one died from having their foreskin removed, they died from complications that could arise from any surgery. By all means, lay the blame on the doctors who caused the infections through unsterilised equipment etc - but what about if someone dies from negligence during heart surgery? I guarantee more do than by circumcision. Should heart surgery also be banned?
 
Btw since Schlmoe was reluctant to weigh in on this debate I thought I'd out him publicly :p
02:10:13 PM schlmoe: did shaun have his dick cut off or what?
 
Jupiter551 said:
No one died from having their foreskin removed, they died from complications that could arise from any surgery. By all means, lay the blame on the doctors who caused the infections through unsterilised equipment etc - but what about if someone dies from negligence during heart surgery? I guarantee more do than by circumcision. Should heart surgery also be banned?

Those boys died from complications from an unnecessary surgery that was basically for cosmetic purposes in a developed country where people should know better. People who do do not get heart surgery would die from heart failure. There is no comparison between the two.
 
Right. Was circumcised at birth in '81. No complications. No body images resulting from lack of skin. No functional issues related to circumcision. Never had a woman turn down free dick.

I will say, I like the way mine looks and thank them everyday for saving me money by making a decision on my behalf.

Now, as for the people clinging bitterly to their foreskins, relax, no one is coming at you with rusty scissors.
 
Shaun__ said:
Those boys died from complications from an unnecessary surgery that was basically for cosmetic purposes in a developed country where people should know better. People who do do not get heart surgery would die from heart failure. There is no comparison between the two.

They should know better than who? YOU?

I guess every mother and father (including those who are doctors and urologists) that chose this elective surgery for their son are somehow less qualified to make that decision than you? The facts are out there, whether you choose to believe them or not. It's up to the parents what to do with those facts and decide, period. You have shown no evidence that neonatal male circumcision done in a licensed and qualified Dr.'s office or hospital is any more dangerous than a woman having her breasts augmented or a mole removed from one's face.
 
Bocefish said:
Shaun__ said:
Those boys died from complications from an unnecessary surgery that was basically for cosmetic purposes in a developed country where people should know better. People who do do not get heart surgery would die from heart failure. There is no comparison between the two.

They should know better than who? YOU?

I guess every mother and father (including those who are doctors and urologists) that chose this elective surgery for their son are somehow less qualified to make that decision than you? The facts are out there, whether you choose to believe them or not. It's up to the parents what to do with those facts and decide, period. You have shown no evidence that neonatal male circumcision done in a licensed and qualified Dr.'s office or hospital is any more dangerous than a woman having her breasts augmented or a mole removed from one's face.

How many babies get breast augmentation? I think you should at least wait to see if get some growth during puberty before you worry to much about their cup size. The biggest difference between the mole removal is the location. The circumcision would be trying to heal in a diaper after all, and also they seal moles after removal with this zappy thing that burns your skin to help prevent infection. The zappy thing left scars from when I was treated for skin cancer. I did not ask the doctor what it was called.
 
Shaun__ said:
Bocefish said:
Shaun__ said:
Those boys died from complications from an unnecessary surgery that was basically for cosmetic purposes in a developed country where people should know better. People who do do not get heart surgery would die from heart failure. There is no comparison between the two.

They should know better than who? YOU?

I guess every mother and father (including those who are doctors and urologists) that chose this elective surgery for their son are somehow less qualified to make that decision than you? The facts are out there, whether you choose to believe them or not. It's up to the parents what to do with those facts and decide, period. You have shown no evidence that neonatal male circumcision done in a licensed and qualified Dr.'s office or hospital is any more dangerous than a woman having her breasts augmented or a mole removed from one's face.

How many babies get breast augmentation? I think you should at least wait to see if get some growth during puberty before you worry to much about their cup size. The biggest difference between the mole removal is the location. The circumcision would be trying to heal in a diaper after all, and also they seal moles after removal with this zappy thing that burns your skin to help prevent infection. The zappy thing left scars from when I was treated for skin cancer. I did not ask the doctor what it was called.

Brilliant comparison about baby breast augmentation. :roll: I guess you failed to comprehend the word WOMAN in my sentence.

So now it's the post circumcision care that is the real danger? Where is your evidence of that?
 
Bocefish said:
Brilliant comparison about baby breast augmentation. :roll: I guess you failed to comprehend the word WOMAN in my sentence.

So now it's the post circumcision care that is the real danger? Where is your evidence of that?

This thread is about children, and I have no problem with you getting circumcised then using weights to stretch you skin out over time then doing it again if you want. People do use weights to restore the appearance of an uncircumcised penis, in case anyone did not know this was possible. The woman who gets breast augmentation is an adult and made the choice to take the risks on. The pictures I posted are from an infection acquired post circumcision, and they look a lot like evidence to me.
 
Shaun__ said:
Bocefish said:
Brilliant comparison about baby breast augmentation. :roll: I guess you failed to comprehend the word WOMAN in my sentence.

So now it's the post circumcision care that is the real danger? Where is your evidence of that?

This thread is about children, and I have no problem with you getting circumcised then using weights to stretch you skin out over time then doing it again if you want. People do use weights to restore the appearance of an uncircumcised penis, in case anyone did not know this was possible. The woman who gets breast augmentation is an adult and made the choice to take the risks on. The pictures I posted are from an infection acquired post circumcision, and they look a lot like evidence to me.

This thread is about infant circumcision and S.F. inTACTivists wanting to criminalize it. I brought up the adult woman's breast augmentation to compare the dangers of elective surgeries. You keep trying to change the subject, but have yet to address any of my valid points or questions.
 
Circumcision is really the only medical thing that Men get the short end on. Our patriarchal society irks me to no end. I'm against so much government, but I definitely think doctors should have the right to choose not to perform inane surgery. That would really have more impact anyway. If a medical professional says "No. I'm opposed to that because it is brutal and unnecessary. Put your wallet away." It's going to sink in a lot more than The Man saying "That's Illegal".

If the US Government is too big to give us universal healthcare, it should stay out of our Dr/patient stuff entirely including birth control, abortion and circumcision. Veering slightly off topic, but has anyone read about the proposed bill in Kansas that would allow Drs to withhold information about a pregnancy up to and including risk to the mother's life if they fear she may abort a fetus? It also absolves them of any malpractice suits if the mother is harmed or dies. How grotesque is that? :shock:
 
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