Elementary School Shooting In Connecticut

[Anonymous]

If someone was trying to break into your home, intent on raping or killing you, good luck protecting yourself with harsh language and hoping the police get there in time.

The operator asks too many damn questions when you call 9-1-1.

"Do you feel you are in immediate danger?," etc.

"No, I'm just calling y'all because I was bored and needed something to do."

 

[UncleThursday]

:whistle:

She may be a tiny little thing, but God help anyone who tries to break into her home.

 

[UncleThursday]

If someone was trying to break into your home, intent on raping or killing you, good luck protecting yourself with harsh language and hoping the police get there in time.

The operator asks too many damn questions when you call 9-1-1.

"Do you feel you are in immediate danger?," etc.

"No, I'm just calling y'all because I was bored and needed something to do."

Get up and get get down, 9-1-1 is a joke in your town!

 

[UncleThursday]

If I worked overnight in a convenience store in a big city, I'd damn well want a gun under the counter. The amount of people who get killed by some robber over a few bucks in the cash register is horrible.

If I worked in a convenience store in America, yes. I would too. Because practically anyone who wants a gun can legally buy one. Even the murderers.

Actually, if you are convicted of a major felony in the US, you lose your right to bear arms, as well as your right to vote.

So, no, not everyone can legally purchase a gun in the US. Especially handguns. Most states have at least a 7 day waiting period when purchasing a handgun, legally. That is for the criminal background check. If you fail it, no handgun for you, and the authorities are now well aware that you tried to buy a handgun.

It seems to be a common misconception with people in other countries that anyone can get out of prison and then run out and legally buy a handgun to potentially use in another crime. It is patently false.

It doesn't mean they can't get them through illegal means, but legally, no, they cannot buy handguns.

A lot of states have no such restrictions on rifles or shotguns, though. However, those are fairly hard to conceal when someone wants to commit a crime. And in a lot of states, if you get caught with a sawed off shotgun, well, you're majorly fucked, legally speaking; since the main reason to saw off the barrel of a shotgun is to conceal it.

 

[mynameisbob84]

If I worked overnight in a convenience store in a big city, I'd damn well want a gun under the counter. The amount of people who get killed by some robber over a few bucks in the cash register is horrible.

If I worked in a convenience store in America, yes. I would too. Because practically anyone who wants a gun can legally buy one. Even the murderers.

Actually, if you are convicted of a major felony in the US, you lose your right to bear arms, as well as your right to vote.

Key word: practically

And while convicted criminals can't buy guns legally, unconvicted criminals and those who have yet to commit a crime (but fully intend to) can.

 

[Just Me]

 

[Jupiter551]

You know, as a male I understand this: guns are kinda cool, I get that, while I was in Vietnam on vacation I took the opportunity to fire an M60 and an ak-47 at a firing range and it was fun.(see this dot? it indicates a sentence is finished). I just don't get that they're (<-- this refers to "guns", not M60s, ak-47s or anything else specifically, because in case you hadn't noticed GUNS in general are what we're discussing).worth the cost in innocent life, they're weapons of war and in extreme cases of law enforcement. They're just not something you need sitting around the home.

Nobody I know has an M60 lying around their home. This is exactly what I mean when people that don't know shit about guns or our laws should educate themselves first or STFU about it.

If you knew what it took to own an M60 legally, you wouldn't be saying anything of the sort.

When was the last time an M60 or automatic AK-47 was used in a mass shooting?

When was the last time a normal person could carry an M60 around, and keep it hidden from view until the time he wanted to shoot? Those things are fucking huge and weigh a lot.

Plus, yes, legally owning an M60 is very nearly impossible in many states.

haha what the fuck, I was referencing them saying yes, they're fun to shoot at a shooting range and those were two that were on offer to shoot at because they had actually been used in the war, then there was a period, and a statement that having GUNS AROUND isn't worth the cost of innocent life - I wasn't talking about M60s or AK-47s, I just said they were fun to shoot. Learn to tell the difference between a comma and a period.

 

[Nordling]

A little break from the gun discussion.

This is Victoria Soto and she died a hero. She hid her first graders in the cabinets and closets after hearing the gunfire. When the shooter came to her classroom, she told him that her students were in the gym. He then gunned her down and moved on. She saved the lives of all of her students.

 

[Bocefish]

You know, as a male I understand this: guns are kinda cool, I get that, while I was in Vietnam on vacation I took the opportunity to fire an M60 and an ak-47 at a firing range and it was fun. I just don't get that they're worth the cost in innocent life, they're weapons of war and in extreme cases of law enforcement. They're just not something you need sitting around the home.

Not once in that paragraph did you mention anything but automatic weapons, we're not mind readers. How about YOU learn to write what you mean instead of expecting us to read your mind.

haha what the fuck, I was referencing them saying yes, they're fun to shoot at a shooting range and those were two that were on offer to shoot at because they had actually been used in the war, then there was a period, and a statement that having GUNS AROUND isn't worth the cost of innocent life - I wasn't talking about M60s or AK-47s, I just said they were fun to shoot. Learn to tell the difference between a comma and a period.

If you don't think having guns around is worth it, fine. Just don't try to force your irrational fear on the rest of us.

 

[Just Me]

 

[Jupiter551]

A little break from the gun discussion.

This is Victoria Soto and she died a hero. She hid her first graders in the cabinets and closets after hearing the gunfire. When the shooter came to her classroom, she told him that her students were in the gym. He then gunned her down and moved on. She saved the lives of all of her students.

That fucking bastard, RIP Victoria, if only more people in the world were like her.

 

[Bocefish]

A little break from the gun discussion.

This is Victoria Soto and she died a hero. She hid her first graders in the cabinets and closets after hearing the gunfire. When the shooter came to her classroom, she told him that her students were in the gym. He then gunned her down and moved on. She saved the lives of all of her students.

Another teacher stood in front of her students trying to protect them before being shot and the Principle herself reportedly charged the shooter. They're all heroes IMO.

 

[Jupiter551]

You know, as a male I understand this: guns are kinda cool, I get that, while I was in Vietnam on vacation I took the opportunity to fire an M60 and an ak-47 at a firing range and it was fun. I just don't get that they're worth the cost in innocent life, they're weapons of war and in extreme cases of law enforcement. They're just not something you need sitting around the home.

Not once in that paragraph did you mention anything but automatic weapons, we're not mind readers. How about YOU learn to write what you mean instead of expecting us to read your mind.

haha what the fuck, I was referencing them saying yes, they're fun to shoot at a shooting range and those were two that were on offer to shoot at because they had actually been used in the war, then there was a period, and a statement that having GUNS AROUND isn't worth the cost of innocent life - I wasn't talking about M60s or AK-47s, I just said they were fun to shoot. Learn to tell the difference between a comma and a period.

If you don't think having guns around is worth it, fine. Just don't try to force your irrational fear on the rest of us.

Alright I suppose I can see how the statement is ambiguous but I was simply saying that yes, it's fun to shoot. I've shot bows for going on 28 years now, and I find a kind of peace and satisfaction in consistent shooting, instinctive aiming etc - but the line has to be drawn somewhere, even you must admit that.
As for irrational fear - personally I think that's EXACTLY why so many of your people are resistant to gun law reform; irrational fear.

You've seen the statistics. Gun controlled countries don't have massacres at the same rate you do, we don't even have gun murders anywhere CLOSE to the rates you do, nor do murders by other means come even close to approaching your murder rate. So tell me, who exactly is being irrational?

 

[BullFrogBlues]

All of the children killed by the gunman were shot multiple times, according to the state’s chief medical examiner, who said that it was worst scene he had witnessed in three decades examining crime scenes. “This is a very devastating set of injuries,” said Dr. H. Wayne Carver II, the chief medical examiner for the state. He said that it appeared that all of the children had been killed by a long rifle that the gunman was carrying, one of several weapons police recovered from the school.

A lot more information in the article contradicting earlier reports/speculation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/nyreg ... n-all.html

 

[Nordling]

A little break from the gun discussion.

[...]

This is Victoria Soto and she died a hero. She hid her first graders in the cabinets and closets after hearing the gunfire. When the shooter came to her classroom, she told him that her students were in the gym. He then gunned her down and moved on. She saved the lives of all of her students.

Another teacher stood in front of her students trying to protect them before being shot and the Principle herself reportedly charged the shooter. They're all heroes IMO.

Yes, there were numerous acts of bravery and heroism. I sometime think that teachers may have a higher bravery coefficient than the general population--maybe because the protection of children is a basic human instinct.

 

[sweetiebatman]

Just listening to British Radio and there was somebody on advocating arming teachers! Where will the madness end?! More guns are not the answer!

The amount of absolute morons that come out of the woodwork after these tragedies never ceases to amaze me

Surely the second amendment is just that, and amendment, and could and should be er.. Amended

The answer is not in banning guns, it is in regulation of ownership, we have seen in the Traviyon Martin case what happens when just anyone is armed, and in that case he though he was in the right!!

 

[Bocefish]

I'd support arming certain selected teachers after proper training. Just like there are armed air marshals on commercial flights. A select one or few teachers in every school depending on size and properly trained with access to a locked firearm would be fine by me. These cowards choose gun free zones for a reason.

:twocents-02cents:

 

[Nordling]

On December 14, I spent a lot of time discussing and arguing with online pals about horrid things like guns and death. Today, a FB friend--a lady I've known online for over ten years wrote this:

December 14, 2012
That is a day I will never forget
That is a day I heard several loud popping sounds
The deafening screams of children crying out in fear
The deafening screams of both adults and children crying out in pain
The deafening screams of my friends and favorite teachers as life left their bodies
My teacher’s voice whispering as we were in crowded
single bathroom stall; trying to reassure us that everything will be all right.
The day I saw tears falling from my teacher’s pretty brown eyes
as she fell and the light left her eyes as she died trying to protect us
December 14, 2012, is a day I will never forget

And so, today, I sobbed and reached for a handkerchief.

 

[mynameisbob84]

I'd support arming certain selected teachers after proper training. Just like there are armed air marshals on commercial flights. A select one or few teachers in every school depending on size and properly trained with access to a locked firearm would be fine by me. These cowards choose gun free zones for a reason.

:twocents-02cents:

Right, cos there's absolutely noooooooooooooo way that some dipshit students might somehow get ahold of those guns. More guns in schools is clearly not the answer.

And "these cowards choose gun free zones for a reason"? Are you implying we do away with gun free zones? Cos the answer to reducing gun crime is to make sure that there's not one home or business in America that doesn't have a gun in the premises?

 

[Bocefish]

I'd support arming certain selected teachers after proper training. Just like there are armed air marshals on commercial flights. A select one or few teachers in every school depending on size and properly trained with access to a locked firearm would be fine by me. These cowards choose gun free zones for a reason.

:twocents-02cents:

Right, cos there's absolutely noooooooooooooo way that some dipshit students might somehow get ahold of those guns. More guns in schools is clearly not the answer.

I disagree.

If done correctly, nobody but the Principle and selected trained teacher(s) would know who has access to the weapons and police band radios or where they are.

 

[Bocefish]

And "these cowards choose gun free zones for a reason"? Are you implying we do away with gun free zones? Cos the answer to reducing gun crime is to make sure that there's not one home or business in America that doesn't have a gun in the premises?

Only in schools. Private businesses have their own responsibility to protect their patrons whether that be hiring an armed security guard or whatever.

 

[Jupiter551]

I'd support arming certain selected teachers after proper training. Just like there are armed air marshals on commercial flights. A select one or few teachers in every school depending on size and properly trained with access to a locked firearm would be fine by me. These cowards choose gun free zones for a reason.

:twocents-02cents:

Right, cos there's absolutely noooooooooooooo way that some dipshit students might somehow get ahold of those guns. More guns in schools is clearly not the answer.

I disagree.

If done correctly, nobody but the Principle and selected trained teacher(s) would know who has access to the weapons and police band radios or where they are.

Teachers are no more above suspicion than anyone else though - just look at cases of child sexual abuse. I wouldn't want a gunman coming in to a school with kids but I equally wouldn't want elementary school teachers packing heat in a classroom of 7 year olds. Also, the guy was reportedly wearing a bullet-proof vest - it's debateable whether any of the teachers could have neutralised him before he shot them.

Bring your troops back from Afghanistan and station one in each school as a security guard if that's the only solution.

 

[LadyLuna]

First I would like to address Isabelle's comment about innocence. According to US law, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. You wrote it backwards, which has a very very different meaning.

Next, about bombs. I know someone who, as a teenager, used to make bombs and set them off on people's porches for fun (no one was hurt by the bombs). So it's not that hard. And if I remember correctly, can be done in about five minutes. Or maybe they were moltov cocktails, I'm having trouble remembering exactly what they were. Point was, I knew as soon as I was told that it was a very dangerous thing for him to have done.

Gun control laws. Maybe tighter standards on what the people can carry. But if we do that, I think we should put back in place city militias. And police are not militias. Oh, and while we're at it, cull the cops of all the ones who are likely to shoot innocent people.

Is it a solution? No. Will it stop the deaths? Hell no. But it will slow them down, and that's worth something.

I believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't America more violent than most other nations in general? I know that pretty much every troll who's ever been in my room was from America. Americans have this fascination with making other people hurt, making other people miserable. I don't know why. I think it has something to do with a lack of respect for other people. Most people in this country aren't going to kill other people on purpose. But even the ones who refuse to kill people don't really respect the others. I have lived the life of the disrespected, for no reason. And I saw how people were even with their friends- there wasn't really much respect for the other people. There always seems to be this feeling that the person is better than everyone else. And that is dangerous.

Americans in general act like a bunch of kids or teenagers. Oh sure, there are plenty who do respect other people, but most just don't.

 

[Nordling]

Yeah, and as I understand it (Bob or Isabelle can correct me), in America's court system, a defendant's guilt must be proven by the prosecutors. In Britain, the defense must prove the defendant's innocence. There's probably a lot of contextual details I'm not aware of since both systems seem to work.

 

[Harvrath]

Typical. Something bad happens and the response is more control, more government, more loss of liberty.

The worst school massacre in the US not during war involved explosives and no firearms. The explosives were planted over the course of months. The attack killed 44 and wounded 58. It was carried out by Andrew Kehoe in 1927, the attack took place at Bath Township in Michigan. It was also probably the first suicide car bombing perpetrated in the United States.

The Columbine School shootings were planned over the course of months and did not just involve firearms, improvised explosives were also involved and it was due to failure of design that those explosives didn't kill more people than the guns.

Attacks on schools and murder rampages in general are not isolated to the United States. In China you have had attacks on schools, usually involving knives because China is an authoritarian police state where the state has a monopoly on firearms. You had the Cumbria shootings in the UK, the weapons involved were a double-barrel shotgun and a bolt-action .22 caliber rifle, no assault weapon or high-capacity pistol, 12 dead and 11 wounded, the UK had already banned handguns due to an earlier rampage. The perp in this case was not stopped by police, he was last seen alive at 12:30 local time and his body was discovered a couple of hours later. In Norway you had Anders Breivik kill close to 100, and Norway has very stringent gun control laws. Walter Siefert used a home-made flamethrower, a lance and a mace to kill 11 and wound 22 at the Cologne School Massacre in 1964, no firearms were involved, the perp suicided by ingesting insecticide but didn't die till the next day.

In a lot of these cases, law-enforcement does not stop these acts in the process but get their in time to identify the body of the shooter who takes his own life.

You cannot prevent such acts by deranged and highly motivated individuals without an authoritarian state like China, North Korea or as seen in Eastern Europe during the Cold War. If you really want that I suggest you move to North Korea.

This elementary school was a Gun-Free Zone. So was Columbine. And Virginia Tech. These gun rampages do not happen were a lot of gun-armed sheepdogs are expected to be present such as at a gun-show, or range events such as Machinegun Shoot at Knob Creek. If anything you should expect it at Knob Creek's Machinegun shoot where people bring weapons with rates of fire upto 100 rounds per second. It does not happen there. Why?

Simply put, gun free zones are a false sense of security. A Gun Free Zone is a gigantic sign for psychopaths that say 'You can kill here, no one can stop you!' It disarms precisely the people you want to be armed, the overwhelming number of people who are decent, responsible, law-abiding and care for the people around them.

Gun control is also a false sense of security as well. A criminal can get a gun within 24 hours. We cannot stop drugs and people from illegally entering the country, think we can stop a load of guns. And again, it disarms precisely the people you want to be armed in bad situations. It is like a gun-free zone, it does precisely the opposite of its stated purpose.

Violent and gun crime rates continue to drop as gun ownership rates increase. More guns equal increased safety. Want to stop further school rampages? Here is how. Take the stay at home mothers of the students, organize them into a militia, arm them with AR-15s and have them guard their own children. Problem solved.

 

[Nordling]

What a horrid post.

 

[Anonymous]

http://elitedaily.com/elite/2012/morgan ... sandy-hook

 

[Nordling]

Double thanks Foxie, Morgan's article was on the mark.

 

[geralddonald]

An interesting, well written opinion piece from The Economist, written from a British point of view, but with a dash of pragmatism about the situation too.

- http://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2012/12/gun-control

 

[Anonymous]

What a horrid post.

LMAO, Nordling! You read through all of that???