Calif. teacher with past in porn loses appeal

[CallMeWilliam]

That bold part there takes that into account.

I hate when that happens... lol

 

[camstory]

I feel the idea of her judgment and her honesty being in question, and whether she tried to cover anything up, all are bullshit and miss the point. That being in my opinion, that in a society/culture that thinks of sex in healthy terms we never get to there being any question. When the idea that one of your teachers has been discovered to have been a porn worker, as the school principal, district supervisor, or who ever, the reaction in midst of ppl who are not all fucked up about how they understand or don't understand the human sexual condition, should be, "Ok, why the fuck are you wasting my time with this? Has the teacher done something wrong? Is she not preforming in her job as a teacher in some way? Oh, I see, some of her students have acted as if they don't respect her, and also maybe one or two of the other teachers. So, they have acted disrespectful to her? Well let me have the names of all involved, I will set the teachers right, and let the science teacher know that we are aware of the poor behavior of some of her immature students, and that she should take what ever steps she needs to, to command their respect, and if that means bouncing their asses home until we can have a sit down with them and their folks, than make it so.

And lying on her resume never happens in a place where you don't need to to cover up something that should not be a detriment to getting a job or your person. But in a place where ppl don't have a bunch of fucked up beliefs, and prejudices about sex, and ppl who are connected to the financial aspects of it, you don't have the disrespect, and if you do, it is quickly corrected, and not tolerated because it is seen by everyone as wrong & disrespectful.

Where as in a place where ppl have to "PASS" to keep from being stigmatized and having opportunities like everyone else, where if they are honest they are going to have the same chance of getting a job as a teacher, as would someone who answers, "yes, I have been convicted of crimes of a sexual nature", you are compelled to be less than honest. In the same place of fucked up understanding, and unjust treatment of ppl, when teachers are dismissed from their jobs and the adults say it is because she can no longer be respected, they are being disrespectful, and telling the children their disrespect is justifiable because this person is in some way no different from a convicted sex offender. and so the circle is closed. bscene-tolietclaw:

This is really very simple! Was she doing her job well? Is there any reason, for which she is responsible that she can not continue to do her job? Everything other than that is ether something that is deserving of no attention, or a problem with how ppl think or are allowed to act, and solved in some other than firing the teacher.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

And lying on her resume never happens in a place where you don't need to to cover up something that should not be a detriment to getting a job or your person. But in a place where ppl don't have a bunch of fucked up beliefs, and prejudices about sex, and ppl who are connected to the financial aspects of it, you don't have the disrespect, and if you do, it is quickly corrected, and not tolerated because it is seen by everyone as wrong & disrespectful.

Where as in a place where ppl have to "PASS" to keep from being stigmatized and having opportunities like everyone else, where if they are honest they are going to have the same chance of getting a job as a teacher, as would someone who answers, "yes, I have been convicted of crimes of a sexual nature", you are compelled to be less than honest. In the same place of fucked up understanding, and unjust treatment of ppl, when teachers are dismissed from their jobs and the adults say it is because she can no longer be respected, they are being disrespectful, and telling the children their disrespect is justifiable because this person is in some way no different from a convicted sex offender. and so the circle is closed. bscene-tolietclaw:

This is really very simple! Was she doing her job well? Is there any reason, for which she is responsible that she can not continue to do her job? Everything other than that is ether something that is deserving of no attention, or a problem with how ppl think or are allowed to act, and solved in some other than firing the teacher.

Man this is a lot of rationalization to try and excuse somebody who lied on their resume. People lie on there resumes all the time, and as a general rule when they are caught they are fired. Of course they try and rationalize why they lied. " I was only one semester short of getting my degree, I was doing the work of a store manager which is why I put down store manager etc. Honesty is an important value in society.

There is another victim here that nobody has discussed. The person who was next in line to get this woman's job was directly hurt by this woman action, between declining student enrollment and severe budget cuts it isn't easy to get teaching jobs now days. Just for the sake argument assume that there was another applicant for the teaching job who was slightly superior to teacher, but instead of lying about her past she wrote adult model for 1 year and lost the job to teacher. You are saying that they should be no penalties for the teacher who lied because it is a silly rule cause society is all screwed up about sex. What would you tell the applicant who was honest?

 

[Nordling]

lol I don't even what to call that scenario. Somehow the fired teacher is now ALSO somehow guilty because she got a job because I assume she was better qualified than other applicants, but because she failed to tell about her earlier career because she KNEW that it would prevent her from getting the job because the people who would decide are a bunch of judgmental pisants?

I'm sorry, honestly is a virtue, I agree, but some things it's better to lie about.

If you were hiding Anne Frank in the 1930s in your attic and LIED to some police who came looking for her, somehow that makes you a bad person?

Yeah, I know, the comparison is of two things that are not comparable in magnitude. BUT the comparison stands because it shows how truth is not always a virtue. Oh, and also, Clinton lied about a blow job--which would have been smart were it not for the blue dress.

 

[LadyLuna]

There is another victim here that nobody has discussed. The person who was next in line to get this woman's job was directly hurt by this woman action, between declining student enrollment and severe budget cuts it isn't easy to get teaching jobs now days. Just for the sake argument assume that there was another applicant for the teaching job who was slightly superior to teacher, but instead of lying about her past she wrote adult model for 1 year and lost the job to teacher. You are saying that they should be no penalties for the teacher who lied because it is a silly rule cause society is all screwed up about sex. What would you tell the applicant who was honest?

You are assuming that the one who admitted to the adult model thing would've gotten the job. The problem here, is that it's not the case. We can reasonably assume that the person who would have gotten the job was not quite as qualified as the person who did. Except, that we can't, because a lot of times who gets the job isn't based on qualifications at all. It's based on first impressions at the interview, along with who the person in question knows.

Lying about something because it will cause you to be judged unfairly, I think could be considered okay. Lying about something because it makes you look better no matter how it's viewed is not okay.

Example: a person has some African American in their family history, not that far back. But that person can pass as a full-white person. They are not required to admit that their grandfather was black, if they feel that such things might be a roadblock to their job.

However, lying about completing a degree is very bad. It's saying that you've done something which you haven't, in fact, done. You can say that you went to that school, and that due to personal circumstances you had to leave one month before completing the degree. Lying about being a manager is also bad, even if you were doing the job. You can, instead, say that you were doing manager duties in that place where you put what your job entailed.

But here's the thing: both finishing the degree and being a manager have some bearing on your ability to do the next job. Being a porn-star had no bearing on whether or not she can teach. The only thing her history in porn affects is how other people see her, not her qualifications to do the job at hand. Just like if you're applying for a position in IT, you should list your years working at Best Buy's geek squad, but you don't need to list the three years at a gas station, because it's not relevant.

As to the supposed lie:

The only way we can say for sure if she lied on the application is if the application specified the last three jobs, and asked if there was any jobs before that. But most teaching jobs DON'T HAVE AN APPLICATION. Omitting information on the resume is not lying. Everyone has to do it, because you have to keep your resume to one or two pages, and a lot of people have more than that to put there. Shit, if I tried to put every job I've ever had on a resume, I'll have...
pet store, target, tutor, summer camp counselor, waitress, gas station 1, gas station 2, burger king, camming MFC, gas station 3, camming Streamate, Clips4Sale

That's roughly in order. I'd never put all that on any resume, no matter what job I'm applying for. So we don't actually know that she lied about it. She might have omitted it, but unless they asked her to list every single job she's ever had without omitting anything, that does not mean she lied about it.

 

[camstory]

And lying on her resume never happens in a place where you don't need to to cover up something that should not be a detriment to getting a job or your person. But in a place where ppl don't have a bunch of fucked up beliefs, and prejudices about sex, and ppl who are connected to the financial aspects of it, you don't have the disrespect, and if you do, it is quickly corrected, and not tolerated because it is seen by everyone as wrong & disrespectful.

Where as in a place where ppl have to "PASS" to keep from being stigmatized and having opportunities like everyone else, where if they are honest they are going to have the same chance of getting a job as a teacher, as would someone who answers, "yes, I have been convicted of crimes of a sexual nature", you are compelled to be less than honest. In the same place of fucked up understanding, and unjust treatment of ppl, when teachers are dismissed from their jobs and the adults say it is because she can no longer be respected, they are being disrespectful, and telling the children their disrespect is justifiable because this person is in some way no different from a convicted sex offender. and so the circle is closed. bscene-tolietclaw:

This is really very simple! Was she doing her job well? Is there any reason, for which she is responsible that she can not continue to do her job? Everything other than that is ether something that is deserving of no attention, or a problem with how ppl think or are allowed to act, and solved in some other than firing the teacher.

Man this is a lot of rationalization to try and excuse somebody who lied on their resume. People lie on there resumes all the time, and as a general rule when they are caught they are fired. Of course they try and rationalize why they lied. " I was only one semester short of getting my degree, I was doing the work of a store manager which is why I put down store manager etc. Honesty is an important value in society.

There is another victim here that nobody has discussed. The person who was next in line to get this woman's job was directly hurt by this woman action, between declining student enrollment and severe budget cuts it isn't easy to get teaching jobs now days. Just for the sake argument assume that there was another applicant for the teaching job who was slightly superior to teacher, but instead of lying about her past she wrote adult model for 1 year and lost the job to teacher. You are saying that they should be no penalties for the teacher who lied because it is a silly rule cause society is all screwed up about sex. What would you tell the applicant who was honest?

No, I am saying, in a society where the ppl did not treat sex, and human sexuality in a fundamental dishonest way, keeping it hidden under a sickly dank throw of shame, and then blaming any part that gets seen from under the shame in the light of day, we would not be having this discussion.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

You are assuming that the one who admitted to the adult model thing would've gotten the job. The problem here, is that it's not the case. We can reasonably assume that the person who would have gotten the job was not quite as qualified as the person who did. Except, that we can't, because a lot of times who gets the job isn't based on qualifications at all. It's based on first impressions at the interview, along with who the person in question knows.

Lying about something because it will cause you to be judged unfairly, I think could be considered okay. Lying about something because it makes you look better no matter how it's viewed is not okay.


But here's the thing: both finishing the degree and being a manager have some bearing on your ability to do the next job. Being a porn-star had no bearing on whether or not she can teach. The only thing her history in porn affects is how other people see her, not her qualifications to do the job at hand. Just like if you're applying for a position in IT, you should list your years working at Best Buy's geek squad, but you don't need to list the three years at a gas station, because it's not relevant.

As to the supposed lie:

Without reading the whole 46 page opinion, we can't know exactly she said on her resume/application, but the news summary says this.

Although (Halas') pornography career has concluded, the ongoing availability of her pornographic materials on the Internet will continue to impede her from being an effective teacher and respected colleague," Judge Julie Cabos-Owen wrote in a 46-page decision issued Friday by the Commission on Professional Competence.

Halas was continually deceitful about her nine-month career in porn before she went to work at the school, the decision said.

This is pretty harsh language from a 3 judge panel and it says to me that she did something far more serious than simply describing her jobs as "model" or "actress", or internet entertainment, and neglected to add the juicy parts. This implies to me that at one point a principal asked her "have you made porn movies" and she lied and said no.

Putting myself in the shoes as a former IT manager, I'd forgive a employee who was cam girl/adult entertainer who used any of these euphemisms on their resume. If on the other hand they made up a job for that period and it was total BS, I probably would fire them. If they admitted to being a porn star it certainly wouldn't be a plus, and would raise questions which would vary depending on the job. Oh and btw actually a job in gas station is relevant to working in IT.

But where you and I disagree is would being a porn star impact her job as teacher,and I have to agree with the commission. Everytime some kid sexted a picture o the teacher during a class, or put a copy of her videos on the classroom computers it impacts her performance as teachers. As a principal everytime I have to deal with an angry parent who says "I will not have my Johnny being taught by the slut", and other science teachers have to teach her kids due to parental requests that makes it harder to command respect of her colleagues.

Now you can make the same argument about early black, Hispanic, and gay teachers who's presence caused disruptions in a classroom. However the big difference is becoming a porn star is a choice but the others didn't have a choice.

Now as popular as it is to think on this forum that "world would be a better place if there was no stigma attached to being a sex worker" The world we live in doesn't think so. It is certainly possible that forum is right and the rest of the world, is stupidly stuck in a backward view on sex and it is the 21st century and society views on sex need to evolve. I just ask people to consider the possibility society isn't crazy, that former sex workers really aren't the ideal role models for teachers, especially dishonest ones.

 

[Nordling]

Okay.

Considered.

Rejected idea.

But now the argument is becoming circular, the feet are dug in and we're making the same arguments.

 

[bob]

Without reading the whole 46 page opinion, we can't know exactly she said on her resume/application, but the news summary says this.

Although (Halas') pornography career has concluded, the ongoing availability of her pornographic materials on the Internet will continue to impede her from being an effective teacher and respected colleague," Judge Julie Cabos-Owen wrote in a 46-page decision issued Friday by the Commission on Professional Competence.

Halas was continually deceitful about her nine-month career in porn before she went to work at the school, the decision said.

This is pretty harsh language from a 3 judge panel and it says to me that she did something far more serious than simply describing her jobs as "model" or "actress", or internet entertainment, and neglected to add the juicy parts. This implies to me that at one point a principal asked her "have you made porn movies" and she lied and said no.

Putting myself in the shoes as a former IT manager, I'd forgive a employee who was cam girl/adult entertainer who used any of these euphemisms on their resume. If on the other hand they made up a job for that period and it was total BS, I probably would fire them. If they admitted to being a porn star it certainly wouldn't be a plus, and would raise questions which would vary depending on the job. Oh and btw actually a job in gas station is relevant to working in IT.

But where you and I disagree is would being a porn star impact her job as teacher,and I have to agree with the commission. Everytime some kid sexted a picture o the teacher during a class, or put a copy of her videos on the classroom computers it impacts her performance as teachers. As a principal everytime I have to deal with an angry parent who says "I will not have my Johnny being taught by the slut", and other science teachers have to teach her kids due to parental requests that makes it harder to command respect of her colleagues.

Now you can make the same argument about early black, Hispanic, and gay teachers who's presence caused disruptions in a classroom. However the big difference is becoming a porn star is a choice but the others didn't have a choice.

Now as popular as it is to think on this forum that "world would be a better place if there was no stigma attached to being a sex worker" The world we live in doesn't think so. It is certainly possible that forum is right and the rest of the world, is stupidly stuck in a backward view on sex and it is the 21st century and society views on sex need to evolve. I just ask people to consider the possibility society isn't crazy, that former sex workers really aren't the ideal role models for teachers, especially dishonest ones.

You make some interesting points....but i disagree with this assumption

This implies to me that at one point a principal asked her "have you made porn movies" and she lied and said no.

It's more likely, I think, that what's been said here about the attitudes we have towards our sexuality allows for "just keeping quiet" to become the same thing as the lie....meaning that nobody asked the specific question, so she didn't have to actually tell a lie.....and -given our attitudes about this whole subject- an outright lie, or one created by omission, is a perfectly acceptable solution to the problems that those attitudes create.

Sure, the problem is exacerbated by the information superhighway. Hiding your past -especially if it has entertainment value (in the broadest sense of the word) to someone- is increasingly difficult to do.

Ultimately, my outrage about this is that role models are not defined by just WHAT you have done. That maybe a satisfactory criteria for parents, eager to protect their little darlings from the things they don't want to admit that they've looked at closely, or about things that scare the heck out of them.....it probably HAS to be that way for educators, who have to deal with both parents and a society that see sex crimes almost as much as it see more conventionally violent crimes.

But kids.....who this thing is really all about....are supposed to learn what a role model is....in some ideal world, a school wouldn't be telling them who are good role models.....it would be teaching kids how to find their own, and encouraging them to be critical about anybody who tries to tell them what they should be thinking about a third person.

And in that thought is the reason that the panel was so harsh. She was a threat to the status quo.

 

[camstory]

But where you and I disagree is would being a porn star impact her job as teacher,and I have to agree with the commission. Everytime some kid sexted a picture o the teacher during a class, or put a copy of her videos on the classroom computers it impacts her performance as teachers. As a principal everytime I have to deal with an angry parent who says "I will not have my Johnny being taught by the slut", and other science teachers have to teach her kids due to parental requests that makes it harder to command respect of her colleagues.

I will preface this with the understanding of things being as they are, and not as I think they should be. And I will not argue at these things being disruptive, what I will suggest, is that the way you fix these things, is not to blame the teacher, but to fix the attitudes and understandings, in a way that would make it uncool, disrespectful, and immature, for students to act that way, and that would make the natural reaction of the principal be, to tell that mother, (in a diplomatic way), to stop wasting his fucking time, unless she had some legitimate complaint.

Now as popular as it is to think on this forum that "world would be a better place if there was no stigma attached to being a sex worker" The world we live in doesn't think so. It is certainly possible that forum is right and the rest of the world, is stupidly stuck in a backward view on sex and it is the 21st century and society views on sex need to evolve.

I think you may be confusing the US with the world, (it's understandable, lot of us Americans do that). That is not to say that I think we are the only place that has some backward, and unhealthy attitudes and beliefs about the condition of human sexuality, but I think there are many places in the "world" where they would just chuckle and shake their heads at this whole thing ever becoming a thing. And the part in bold is very well said.

Ultimately, my outrage about this is that role models are not defined by just WHAT you have done. That maybe a satisfactory criteria for parents, eager to protect their little darlings from the things they don't want to admit that they've looked at closely, or about things that scare the heck out of them.....it probably HAS to be that way for educators, who have to deal with both parents and a society that see sex crimes almost as much as it see more conventionally violent crimes.

But kids.....who this thing is really all about....are supposed to learn what a role model is....in some ideal world, a school wouldn't be telling them who are good role models.....it would be teaching kids how to find their own, and encouraging them to be critical about anybody who tries to tell them what they should be thinking about a third person.

And in that thought is the reason that the panel was so harsh. She was a threat to the status quo.

 

[camstory]

just an interesting observation of my above post. When I read it back, I realized that I made the Principal male, and the complaining parent female. When it is nearly as likely that the principal could have been female.... :lol:

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I will preface this with the understanding of things being as they are, and not as I think they should be. And I will not argue at these things being disruptive, what I will suggest, is that the way you fix these things, is not to blame the teacher, but to fix the attitudes and understandings, in a way that would make it uncool, disrespectful, and immature, for students to act that way, and that would make the natural reaction of the principal be, to tell that mother, (in a diplomatic way), to stop wasting his fucking time, unless she had some legitimate complaint.

But why should society change to accommodate her or other sex workers, is there a benefit to society? The woman made a choice to make porn films, and she did so as a young woman after college, not as 18 year old teenager. Surely she knew that where was a strong possibility that doing so would make it harder to things pursue future career choices, President and teacher being a couple of obvious ones. Maybe the mom's complaint is legitimate, how are you able to decide that it isn't?

Now as popular as it is to think on this forum that "world would be a better place if there was no stigma attached to being a sex worker" The world we live in doesn't think so. It is certainly possible that forum is right and the rest of the world, is stupidly stuck in a backward view on sex and it is the 21st century and society views on sex need to evolve.

I think you may be confusing the US with the world, (it's understandable, lot of us Americans do that). That is not to say that I think we are the only place that has some backward, and unhealthy attitudes and beliefs about the condition of human sexuality, but I think there are many places in the "world" where they would just chuckle and shake their heads at this whole thing ever becoming a thing.

I think you maybe confusing a few cities in small Northern Europeans countries as being representative of the world. I can easily list countries with a combined population of over 6 billion where being a porn star, would pretty much automatic disqualify you from teaching K-12. Can you provide some example of countries where sex worker to teacher is a common career path.?

I try and put myself in the parents place. If I had a daughter I wouldn't want her to be a sex worker. Now this hardly scientific but in discussion with a large number of guys around a poker tables with a variety of ages from 20 to 70, I have yet to hear anybody say they'd be cool with a daughter who was. This include a few guys who were currently married to or were dating strippers and one guy who was married to a girl doing porn.

In my case this partly because of the stigma attached, but even if the future a sex worker has equal prestige to say assistant store manager, I still wouldn't encourage a daughter to become one, because I am not convinced that doing so would be maximize her chances of having a happy life. Now if she did I would I wouldn't disown her, cut her out of my will or anything else drastic, but I wouldn't brag about how she made Miss MFC.

Teachers are role models, and given my choice between have teachers as role models or celebrities I am happy they are. To me I think porn is already glamorized enough as it is (example AVN) so I see no need to encourage more young woman to aspire become sex workers by having them as teacher who all the boys think is hawt. I am genuinely puzzled why people think that society would be better off.

 

[mynameisbob84]

I will preface this with the understanding of things being as they are, and not as I think they should be. And I will not argue at these things being disruptive, what I will suggest, is that the way you fix these things, is not to blame the teacher, but to fix the attitudes and understandings, in a way that would make it uncool, disrespectful, and immature, for students to act that way, and that would make the natural reaction of the principal be, to tell that mother, (in a diplomatic way), to stop wasting his fucking time, unless she had some legitimate complaint.

But why should society change to accommodate her or other sex workers, is there a benefit to society? The woman made a choice to make porn films, and she did so as a young woman after college, not as 18 year old teenager. Surely she knew that where was a strong possibility that doing so would make it harder to things pursue future career choices, President and teacher being a couple of obvious ones. Maybe the mom's complaint is legitimate, how are you able to decide that it isn't?

Now as popular as it is to think on this forum that "world would be a better place if there was no stigma attached to being a sex worker" The world we live in doesn't think so. It is certainly possible that forum is right and the rest of the world, is stupidly stuck in a backward view on sex and it is the 21st century and society views on sex need to evolve.

I think you may be confusing the US with the world, (it's understandable, lot of us Americans do that). That is not to say that I think we are the only place that has some backward, and unhealthy attitudes and beliefs about the condition of human sexuality, but I think there are many places in the "world" where they would just chuckle and shake their heads at this whole thing ever becoming a thing.

I think you maybe confusing a few cities in small Northern Europeans countries as being representative of the world. I can easily list countries with a combined population of over 6 billion where being a porn star, would pretty much automatic disqualify you from teaching K-12. Can you provide some example of countries where sex worker to teacher is a common career path.?

I try and put myself in the parents place. If I had a daughter I wouldn't want her to be a sex worker. Now this hardly scientific but in discussion with a large number of guys around a poker tables with a variety of ages from 20 to 70, I have yet to hear anybody say they'd be cool with a daughter who was. This include a few guys who were currently married to or were dating strippers and one guy who was married to a girl doing porn.

In my case this partly because of the stigma attached, but even if the future a sex worker has equal prestige to say assistant store manager, I still wouldn't encourage a daughter to become one, because I am not convinced that doing so would be maximize her chances of having a happy life. Now if she did I would I wouldn't disown her, cut her out of my will or anything else drastic, but I wouldn't brag about how she made Miss MFC.

Teachers are role models, and given my choice between have teachers as role models or celebrities I am happy they are. To me I think porn is already glamorized enough as it is (example AVN) so I see no need to encourage more young woman to aspire become sex workers by having them as teacher who all the boys think is hawt. I am genuinely puzzled why people think that society would be better off.

Society would be better off if we didn't treat sex as a giant taboo.

You say you wouldn't want your daughter working in the sex industry, but why not? Let's strip away the stigma that hangs over the heads of those in the industry and let's pretend that the sex industry is as socially accepted as the retail industry, or the music industry, or any other indistry you care to name.

What negatives are there? The only one I can think of are the dangers that are associated with prostitution - the STDs, the risk of being beaten or mistreated by pimps or customers, etc. But what else is there? I can't think of another negative.

 

[Mirra]

I will preface this with the understanding of things being as they are, and not as I think they should be. And I will not argue at these things being disruptive, what I will suggest, is that the way you fix these things, is not to blame the teacher, but to fix the attitudes and understandings, in a way that would make it uncool, disrespectful, and immature, for students to act that way, and that would make the natural reaction of the principal be, to tell that mother, (in a diplomatic way), to stop wasting his fucking time, unless she had some legitimate complaint.

But why should society change to accommodate her or other sex workers, is there a benefit to society? The woman made a choice to make porn films, and she did so as a young woman after college, not as 18 year old teenager. Surely she knew that where was a strong possibility that doing so would make it harder to things pursue future career choices, President and teacher being a couple of obvious ones. Maybe the mom's complaint is legitimate, how are you able to decide that it isn't?

Why? Because maybe she's an excellent fucking teacher. One of the type we need MORE of in the world. The ones that don't just teach in whatever way works best for them but tries to connect with her students so they learn things in the way that works best for them. One who genuinely cares about inspiring students and not just doing what's required.

I try and put myself in the parents place. If I had a daughter I wouldn't want her to be a sex worker. Now this hardly scientific but in discussion with a large number of guys around a poker tables with a variety of ages from 20 to 70, I have yet to hear anybody say they'd be cool with a daughter who was. This include a few guys who were currently married to or were dating strippers and one guy who was married to a girl doing porn.

In my case this partly because of the stigma attached, but even if the future a sex worker has equal prestige to say assistant store manager, I still wouldn't encourage a daughter to become one, because I am not convinced that doing so would be maximize her chances of having a happy life. Now if she did I would I wouldn't disown her, cut her out of my will or anything else drastic, but I wouldn't brag about how she made Miss MFC.

So having worked in porn or as a stripper means the teacher carrying some kind of infectious disease? She's going to infect the little girls she teaches with slutitis? And of course parents always want some ideal job and life for their children but "being cool" with their daughter's choices isn't a prerequisite. What should matter is that she's happy, safe, and they're supportive.

Teachers are role models, and given my choice between have teachers as role models or celebrities I am happy they are. To me I think porn is already glamorized enough as it is (example AVN) so I see no need to encourage more young woman to aspire become sex workers by having them as teacher who all the boys think is hawt. I am genuinely puzzled why people think that society would be better off.

I think you're confusing things a bit. The problem is that there is this stigma attached to such professions because sexuality is considered such a taboo thing.

 

[SweepTheLeg]

Which would you prefer- A great teacher who may have done some things in the past that not all would agree with or a teacher that isn't as great, but never did a thing wrong in their life. Why would I want a sub par teacher teaching my kids just because she's never done anything wrong in her life?

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Society would be better off if we didn't treat sex as a giant taboo.

You say you wouldn't want your daughter working in the sex industry, but why not? Let's strip away the stigma that hangs over the heads of those in the industry and let's pretend that the sex industry is as socially accepted as the retail industry, or the music industry, or any other indistry you care to name.

What negatives are there? The only one I can think of are the dangers that are associated with prostitution - the STDs, the risk of being beaten or mistreated by pimps or customers, etc. But what else is there? I can't think of another negative.

Well that is a big assumption without a lot of data to support it. There have been almost no societies without taboos about sex. The only question is where to draw the line, getting rid of all tabooes regarding sex, means sex between men and young boys is ok, like NAMBLA, the ancient Greeks, and much of Afghan tribal society practice. I am guessing you are really suggesting adopting a more enlightened view (i.e yours), and you can show that this leads to a better society.


But let's skip this debate. Instead here are some negative that I can come up with for having my daughter work in the sex industry.

• 1. She would have a distorted view of men, while most all young guys watch porn the number who visit prostitute, and/or spend tons on cam girls, strippers, pay money for porn sites is small minority. I doubt many cam girls like men as as group better after spend hours listening to open bobs bb and far worse than before doing the job .
  2. It reduces the pool of potential partners, plenty of good boyfriends or girlfriends are uncomfortable "sharing" they partner with the world at large. Divorce rates are several times higher for sex workers
  3. Sex workers have a much higher instance of substance abuse than other profession. Now there is a bit of chicken/egg problem, did the coke addict turn to prostitution to support her habit or did the prostitute turn to coke to deaden the pain?.
  4. As you say violence, and STDs are a big issue. Now cam girls avoid most of these issues. But even so I bet the number of camgirls who have a serious issues with stalkers is significantly higher than girls who don't cam.
  5. The career of most sex workers is limited. Most hit their peak earning in their 20s very few can make money into their 40s. It is much harder to get into a well paying career if you start at say 30 than if you do so at 22 right out of college. It is similar problem that professional athletes and singers faces and I wouldn't encourage a son to become a professional athlete unless he was exceptionally talented.
  6. I'd concerned that she become obsessed with appearance and would only view herself as a sexual creature. How would she deal with her beauty fading. Now obviously some, maybe even many, sex workers are able to avoid being objectified, but not all. I'd want my daughter to valued for her brains more than her boob size.
  7. It is generally a very isolating job, so she would miss out on being part of team which is one of the most rewarding portions of a workplace
  8. It is awkward to raise children as sex worker. Even if there is no stigma attached I don't think I'd want to have to explain what my daughter does to a six or seven year old

Now there are some positive benefits, obviously the money, but others I have learned reading ACF. However, on balance the negatives outweigh the positive IMO. Earlier this month one of my favorite models who has been very successful (lmagazine centerfold, top 100 in MFC) in the adult business for almost 4 years (starting at 18), quit the business. She got in her words "A big girls job". She is going to work longer hours and make much less money but so far seems happy even though it means giving up her lovely apartment. I know her dad is happy so my last reason is it will create less family stress not being a sex worker.

I am sure models can add to the list.

 

[LadyLuna]

I bet the number of camgirls who have a serious issues with stalkers is significantly higher than girls who don't cam.

I'm not so sure about this... I had my one and only stalker when I was a roleplayer on IRC and had absolutely no pictures of myself on the internet yet, naked or otherwise.

ALSO, regulate sex work and you get rid of a lot of the violence and drugs associated with it. After all, employers won't want a worker on hardcore drugs (though I hope they'd be fine with anything legal). And girls will actually be able to take the abusers to court, so they won't be able to get away with it anymore.

 

[mynameisbob84]

1. She would have a distorted view of men, while most all young guys watch porn the number who visit prostitute, and/or spend tons on cam girls, strippers, pay money for porn sites is small minority. I doubt many cam girls like men as as group better after spend hours listening to open bobs bb and far worse than before doing the job.

I don't think you're wrong here, but the sex industry isn't the only industry where women are exposed to high volumes of men who are less than chivalrous. Any industry that requires those working in it to communicate with the general public can distort a person's view of men (or women for that matter). But I agree it's probably worse in a profession like camming than it is in say, retail.
That said, if your view of men is shaped by thousands of them acting like entitled children day in day out, is it truly a distorted view? Or are men generally just a bit shit? Could it be argued that cam girls and the like actually have a clearer perspective of what many (not all) men are truly like? A clearer perspective than women in many other industries...
Also, in my experience, cam girls tend to be pretty smart (though it's possible this forum has skewed my image of cam girls as a whole, I guess ) and are likely smart enough to realise that the guys on MFC might not be representative of men in general.

2. It reduces the pool of potential partners, plenty of good boyfriends or girlfriends are uncomfortable "sharing" they partner with the world at large. Divorce rates are several times higher for sex workers

I'm too lazy to look this up so I'll take your word for it

3. Sex workers have a much higher instance of substance abuse than other profession. Now there is a bit of chicken/egg problem, did the coke addict turn to prostitution to support her habit or did the prostitute turn to coke to deaden the pain?.

Like you say, prostitution is often a profession that's sought by women with substance abuse issues as it's a job that doesn't discriminate against people who are drug-dependent (in fact, it often preys on them). Plus, prostitution is only one profession in a large industry. It's not often that you hear of a perpetually drugged out cam girl for example.

4. As you say violence, and STDs are a big issue. Now cam girls avoid most of these issues. But even so I bet the number of camgirls who have a serious issues with stalkers is significantly higher than girls who don't cam.

I agree with the violence/STDs issue. The stalker thing... while I'm sure it happens, and cam girls would be wise to safeguard themselves against such an occurence by keeping their location private (and the overwhelming majority do), is this something that happens often? I think I know more girls in real life (who don't cam) who have been stalked than I do cam girls.

5. The career of most sex workers is limited. Most hit their peak earning in their 20s very few can make money into their 40s. It is much harder to get into a well paying career if you start at say 30 than if you do so at 22 right out of college. It is similar problem that professional athletes and singers faces and I wouldn't encourage a son to become a professional athlete unless he was exceptionally talented.

This isn't a problem that's exclusive to the sex industry and like any career path, is a problem that can be overcome by planning for the future. And it would be much less of an issue if shit like ex-porn stars being told they can't teach wasn't so prevalent.

6. I'd concerned that she become obsessed with appearance and would only view herself as a sexual creature. How would she deal with her beauty fading. Now obviously some, maybe even many, sex workers are able to avoid being objectified, but not all. I'd want my daughter to valued for her brains more than her boob size.

I've never fully understood this attitude. Being valued for your looks = bad. Being valued for your brains = good. Why? Both are a result of genes and a good looking person had no more say in being born with good looks than an intelligent person did in being born with said intelligence. I think people should be valued for things like work ethic, attitude, effort, ambition, talents, skills, etc. If a person in the sex industry works hard and perfects their chosen craft and rises to the top of their profession, why shouldn't their efforts be as respected as much as the woman who works her way to the top of a PR company? They're both making full use of the assets they were born with. But oh yes, there's no stigma attached to PR like there is sex work...

7. It is generally a very isolating job, so she would miss out on being part of team which is one of the most rewarding portions of a workplace

Again, this isn't limited to the sex industry.

8. It is awkward to raise children as sex worker. Even if there is no stigma attached I don't think I'd want to have to explain what my daughter does to a six or seven year old

But you'd be happy to tell a six year old that your daughter works closely with rape victims? Or your daughter's a taxidermist? Or works for an arms manufacturer? Or is a homicide detective? Point is there are plenty of professions that might be difficult to explain to a six year old. That's not a reason to not work in them. :twocents-02cents:

 

[PlayboyMegan]

I bet the number of camgirls who have a serious issues with stalkers is significantly higher than girls who don't cam.

I'm not so sure about this... I had my one and only stalker when I was a roleplayer on IRC and had absolutely no pictures of myself on the internet yet, naked or otherwise.

ALSO, regulate sex work and you get rid of a lot of the violence and drugs associated with it. After all, employers won't want a worker on hardcore drugs (though I hope they'd be fine with anything legal). And girls will actually be able to take the abusers to court, so they won't be able to get away with it anymore.

He's probably correct, actually. I assume that if the stalker was any good at stalking, you wouldn't be aware they were doing it?? Therefore, you could be stalked right now without any knowledge of it?? Besides that point, yes, anyone can get stalked. BUT, if we are talking numbers here, there is MUCH greater odds of being stalked online when you meet hundreds, maybe thousands, of new men a night. Your odds of being stalked increase greatly from 20 guys you might serve at a restaurant if you were a waitress. Or on another site with less traffic. Then you add in sex to the mix and I believe that also increases things quite a bit.

 

[Nordling]

If a person indulges, as a customer, in a particular profession, but doesn't want someone they are related to, to join that profession...isn't that classic hypocrisy?

 

[PlayboyMegan]

If a person indulges, as a customer, in a particular profession, but doesn't want someone they are related to, to join that profession...isn't that classic hypocrisy?

I hope not. I love McDonalds, but I'd hate for my child to have that job. (no offense to any fast food workers reading this)
If that does make me a hypocrite, so be it.

 

[Nordling]

If a person indulges, as a customer, in a particular profession, but doesn't want someone they are related to, to join that profession...isn't that classic hypocrisy?

I hope not. I love McDonalds, but I'd hate for my child to have that job. (no offense to any fast food workers reading this)
If that does make me a hypocrite, so be it.

But not because of such things as role models or morality, right? I assume it's because you may feel McDonald's employees are not treated fairly, and certainly not that ten years in the future, her employment there may cost her a job as an astrophysicist.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

If a person indulges, as a customer, in a particular profession, but doesn't want someone they are related to, to join that profession...isn't that classic hypocrisy?

I hope not. I love McDonalds, but I'd hate for my child to have that job. (no offense to any fast food workers reading this)
If that does make me a hypocrite, so be it.

But not because of such things as role models or morality, right? I assume it's because you may feel McDonald's employees are not treated fairly, and certainly not that ten years in the future, her employment there may cost her a job as an astrophysicist.

Yes, that's correct. I don't think they are paid enough to survive and they aren't treated fairly. Nothing to do with morality.

 

[Nordling]

If a person indulges, as a customer, in a particular profession, but doesn't want someone they are related to, to join that profession...isn't that classic hypocrisy?

I hope not. I love McDonalds, but I'd hate for my child to have that job. (no offense to any fast food workers reading this)
If that does make me a hypocrite, so be it.

But not because of such things as role models or morality, right? I assume it's because you may feel McDonald's employees are not treated fairly, and certainly not that ten years in the future, her employment there may cost her a job as an astrophysicist.

Yes, that's correct. I don't think they are paid enough to survive and they aren't treated fairly. Nothing to do with morality.

Exactly. Thus concern for your child's welfare rather than looking down on workers. If you felt that McDonald's workers were "low lifes" but continued to eat there, that would be hypocrisy.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

If a person indulges, as a customer, in a particular profession, but doesn't want someone they are related to, to join that profession...isn't that classic hypocrisy?

I hope not. I love McDonalds, but I'd hate for my child to have that job. (no offense to any fast food workers reading this)
If that does make me a hypocrite, so be it.

But not because of such things as role models or morality, right? I assume it's because you may feel McDonald's employees are not treated fairly, and certainly not that ten years in the future, her employment there may cost her a job as an astrophysicist.

Yes, that's correct. I don't think they are paid enough to survive and they aren't treated fairly. Nothing to do with morality.

Exactly. Thus concern for your child's welfare rather than looking down on workers. If you felt that McDonald's workers were "low lifes" but continued to eat there, that would be hypocrisy.

Fair enough. So, I assume the point you wanted to make was about sex workers? That a guy is a hypocrite if he watches cams but wouldn't want his daughter doing it. Am I correct?

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

He's probably correct, actually. I assume that if the stalker was any good at stalking, you wouldn't be aware they were doing it?? Therefore, you could be stalked right now without any knowledge of it?? Besides that point, yes, anyone can get stalked. BUT, if we are talking numbers here, there is MUCH greater odds of being stalked online when you meet hundreds, maybe thousands, of new men a night. Your odds of being stalked increase greatly from 20 guys you might serve at a restaurant if you were a waitress. Or on another site with less traffic. Then you add in sex to the mix and I believe that also increases things quite a bit.

This was exactly my reasoning it is really a numbers game plus the atmosphere that sex works creates. It is like pretty much everything else on my list none of these risks are exclusive to working in the sex industry, just much more prevalent. For instance the researcher that were looking at divorce rates among profession conclude that bartender #2 and dancer #1 (includes non exotic dancers also) had the highest rates because night after night you are exposed to member of the opposite sex in a sexually charged atmosphere, one of these days you are going to get curious...

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

If a person indulges, as a customer, in a particular profession, but doesn't want someone they are related to, to join that profession...isn't that classic hypocrisy?

Not all. I watch UFC and boxing, I wouldn't want my kid to do either sport professionally. I've gone deep sea fishing, and watched the Deadliest Catch but I'd certainly strongly discourage one of my kids from signing up for a season fishing in Alaska. The risk in these occupations outweighs the rewards, and young people have a tendency to believe they are immortal.

 

[Nordling]

Megan, yes, exactly.

 

[Nordling]

If a person indulges, as a customer, in a particular profession, but doesn't want someone they are related to, to join that profession...isn't that classic hypocrisy?

Not all. I watch UFC and boxing, I wouldn't want my kid to do either sport professionally. I've gone deep sea fishing, and watched the Deadliest Catch but I'd certainly strongly discourage one of my kids from signing up for a season fishing in Alaska. The risk in these occupations outweighs the rewards, and young people have a tendency to believe they are immortal.

Certainly, a parent wouldn't want their child, while a child, to indulge in dangerous sports, but if you support any occupation where you in some way look down on them, but would not want your adult offspring to be in that occupation, you would be practicing hypocrisy.

And this is where we get back to the OP...it's about a teacher being fired for what are obviously MORALITY reasons...a school determining that someone's past, LEGAL, occupation somehow rules their rights as a worker in a future occupation.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

If a person indulges, as a customer, in a particular profession, but doesn't want someone they are related to, to join that profession...isn't that classic hypocrisy?

Not all. I watch UFC and boxing, I wouldn't want my kid to do either sport professionally. I've gone deep sea fishing, and watched the Deadliest Catch but I'd certainly strongly discourage one of my kids from signing up for a season fishing in Alaska. The risk in these occupations outweighs the rewards, and young people have a tendency to believe they are immortal.

Certainly, a parent wouldn't want their child, while a child, to indulge in dangerous sports, but if you support any occupation where you in some way look down on them, but would not want your adult offspring to be in that occupation, you would be practicing hypocrisy.

And this is where we get back to the OP...it's about a teacher being fired for what are obviously MORALITY reasons...a school determining that someone's past, LEGAL, occupation somehow rules their rights as a worker in a future occupation.

I don't look down on club strippers, but I've heard enough horror stories from RL friends, to not want my child being one. I don't look down on prostitutes or pornstars, but because the risk of STD's, I wouldn't want my daughter being one. I wouldn't mind her camming because most of the things I worry about don't exist in the camming world.