Do you believe that rape culture is real?

[Mila_]

@Kitsune, Good talk. Though I am very interested to hear how you propose to solve the issu of sexual violence. (This isn't snark, this is curiosity.) At no point did I condescend intentionally but "death of the author" and all so interpret as you will.

Society is not a toaster. You can't fix society. It has no magical screw you can tighten.

There will ALWAYS be some form of "sexual violence" because there is a differential in strength and energy between men and women that will never go away and this is especially true if you factor in ANY male advances or indications of interest as sexual violence. This differential, by the way, is what keeps society moving and spinning. Most women understand that when a man looks at them its because they are attracted, and to most women this indicator of attraction is not only flattering, but an important signal to prepare themselves to be approached by a man. They might then be interested or not in him, and will act accordingly, but if you treat every advance as a microaggression and a normalization of rape, and chastise men for feeling their natural male impulses towards women it can only lead to unhealthy societies with a lot of frustrated people. And by the way, having poor social skills can lead a man who has nothing but pure intentions to lean too close to you or creepily whisper a compliment in your ear. It is often just a case of poor social skills. Should we gice them all workshops on how to be less clumsy? No, when you go out on in public you accept that you will be interacting with other members of society, their pets, garbage and traffic and many other things that while bothersome dont pose a threat to you. If you want your "bubble" to be respected then dont leave your home, or move to a gated community and shop in Amazon.

Now, if you ask me what can we do about RAPE, I think we are already doing a good job and even erring on the side of the alleged victims even when there isnt evidence to support their claims. The justice system and the law are imperfect and there will always be crime no matter how many efforts we make in solving these problems. A rapist wont stop raping because a feminist talked to him nicely or explained it was wrong. Rapists and molesters already know what they do is wrong, they do it anyway because they are sociopaths. The problem is you now consider everything shorter of "I asked her if it was okay if I penetrated her with my penis and she said Y-E-S" a form of rape, so naturally a man can rape you by accident! they need to be taught really elaborate rules to make sure they dont accidentally rape you one day.

The best you can do is focus on your family and your children. Teach them to be careful. Teach your daughters about the natural differences between men and women. Teach them to dress appropriately, to not put themselves in risky situations, to keep themselves protected, teach them to carry and how to shoot if you are lucky enough to live in a country where citizens can keep weapons, and if despite of all these measures she happens to get raped, offer her all your support while simultaneously teaching her she is not a victim and it doesnt define her, that she can get over it and move on with her life.

Everything else makes you a pawn in a war of ideas that have little to do with women's wellbeing.

 

[LioraVox]

Rape, at its core, is putting your penis or another penetrating object inside a woman's vagina against her will. Cutting a line at the post office while invading someone else's space, and while rude, is not in essence raping them. Staring at them on the street is not raping them in essence, and neither is complimenting them even if it is done in a creepy way. Using the term "rape culture" to put these behaviors in the proximity of rape is dishonest.

"Rape, at its core, is putting your penis or another penetrating object inside a woman's vagina against her will." - Rape is forcing someone into a sexual intercourse situation with you against their will and consent. The lack/ or revoking of consent to the sexual act is what makes something rape.

"Cutting a line at the post office while invading someone else's space, and while rude, is not in essence raping them. Staring at them on the street is not raping them in essence, and neither is complimenting them even if it is done in a creepy way. " - I never made a claim that cutting a line, nor staring at people were a part of rape culture..maybe you're confusing or lumping other posts in with what I explained as my own personal viewpoints on what rape culture is?
You're also ignoring the fact that I said "with sexual intent" in your examples here.

"Using the term "rape culture" to put these behaviors in the proximity of rape is dishonest." - TBH, it seems as though you either aren't fully understanding what I said or I didn't explain it as clearly as I thought. So again, I don't place actions such as creepily complimenting me, or staring at me as rape because I believe it devalues actual rape cases. But! The behavior of complimenting me in a creepy way (like a stranger whispering in my ear) or some guy staring at me for a length of time while he has a sexual fantasy about us is a part of rape culture because both people are forcing their sexual intent upon me without my consent. I didn't invite this random person to be close enough to whisper in my ear and I didn't ask them if they found me attractive- this person invaded my space to tell me what they thought of me. I also didn't stand in a sexy pose or start playfully teasing this person who is staring at me daydreaming about the things we'd do in a bedroom- that is their own fantasy that I'm now aware of because they won't break eye contact within my general direction.

And in my little section of society, this type of behavior (invading someone's personal space with sexual intent) is taught to be accepted and normal. Since they aren't forcing themselves onto me or forcing me into a sexual situation I shouldn't make a big deal. So what they're being creepy and invading my personal space and speaking to me in a sexual manner even though I didn't ask for their opinion*-I should be flattered that someone thinks I'm attractive enough to invade my space/ to stare at me/ to follow me as I walk to a coffee shop etc.

 

[Vera]

The best you can do is focus on your family and your children. Teach them to be careful. Teach your daughters about the natural differences between men and women. Teach them to dress appropriately, to not put themselves in risky situations, to keep themselves protected, teach them to carry and how to shoot if you are lucky enough to live in a country where citizens can keep weapons, and if despite of all these measures she happens to get raped, offer her all your support while simultaneously teaching her she is not a victim and it doesnt define her, that she can get over it and move on with her life.

Everything else makes you a pawn in a war of ideas that have little to do with women's wellbeing.

I agree partially with the portion about microaggressions. I am so very not in the microaggression-pimping camp (which I thought you'd have sussed out) but it may be helpful to others. On the other hand, I think maybe not imposing sexuality on a given human is a pretty nifty thing. Like, by all means flirt, whatever. But it's 2017 and a huge amount of sexual interaction is internet driven in Western worlds.

I agree that a grown-ass man with existing, unaddressed pathologies won't always be receptive to education but children are almost always inherently kind and willing to adopt anti-violence stances. My proposition was more toward the next generation of schoolchildren, but donating to the homeless etc. never hurt.

I do very much agree with your statement about teaching daughters to shoot and teaching children how to behave Want to address size differentials you mentioned in P1? Firearms are, unfortunately, the great equalizer. It is a heavy burden but I am very grateful to my father for teaching me about gun safety. I am all over the map politically but you bet I have my concealed carry.

I don't really agree with your statement that supporting womens' rights makes you a pawn. At least that has a cause. It hardly makes you a pawn any more than being a Republican in the current nightmare that is American politics, which seems to be "sell out to the highest bidder."

That's for another thread.

 

[Luckyfoxxy]

I feel like almost everything that should be said. was, in this thread but I would like to offer a different perspective: I like being stared at. I like being catcalled. It makes me feel attractive. I'm fairly sure I'm not alone in this matter. Can it get annoying? Yes. Should we penalize it and other expressions of attraction and put it in the broad and menacing sounding category of "rape culture"? No, that's a demented and quite horrifying idea.
Because once you paint it as a problem, you will have to do something about it. Private jokes become a matter of public outrage. Staring and being awkward is blown out of proportion. I do not like the amount of pressure that is put on men to become scared of accidently "stare-raping" anyone because timid and mild men are not what I'm attracted to, and not what I would like to someday raise children with.
I understand women just want to feel safe - but to what extent? You can't cover the world in a bubble wrap, there are risks involved and sometimes you should take them. Sometimes it makes a life better, more challanging, more enjoyable for it not to be completely safe.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I disagree with feminists in principle, philosophically, morally and in my gut. This will not change depending on how soft your gloves are when you throw your punches.

I don't know if you care, but since in the past you have howled about ratings, I would like to get out ahead of the situation and explain why I felt the need to give you a chillpill rating instead of a helpful (which your post clearly was).

There is a real problem in society with people getting beat up. Punches are the most common form this takes. The pain is real, and it can indeed cause long lasting psychological damage. Your flippant metaphor is a perfect example of Punch Culture.

I don't expect you to understand where I am coming from, since this is primarily a male issue (which places it well outside the scope of anything you could possibly be expected to know, and therefore contest). But since this thread is focused on women/feminist issues, perhaps a less offensive reference to a delicious, arsenic laden cake would have been more fitting.

Using the term "rape culture" to put these behaviors in the proximity of rape is dishonest.

Agreed. And as someone who sat through the sensitivity/harassment/rape awareness training (and is willing to say there is some merit in it), I will go even further and say it is abhorrent.

When you start to hear about consequences for staring, or absurd things like "questioning rape culture is rape culture", it is time to wonder...Will totalitarianism eliminate rape?

 

[weirdbr]

Our society also teaches boys to respect women's body and always ask for consent before having sex. Yes means yes and No means NO. That without consent is it rape and it is WRONG.

In which country? If I were to guess, I'd say it only happens in the Netherlands (which has great sex/relationship education) and maybe in the Nordic countries, while in the rest of the planet there's little to no education about consent.

Our society provides resources to women and men alike that have been raped. This includes medical resources and testing kits. The law is on the victims side. There are support groups online and off for women that have suffered through sexual assault rape. There are rape hotlines, and there is even a rape crisis center close to me.
Our society punishes anyone who is proven guilty of raping another individual. The average prison sentence of a convicted rapist is 5.5 years. They are then a convicted felon for life, and put on the sex offender list which is open to the public.

Sure, the law has lots of provisions, but the fact that in most states in the US there's years worth of rape kits unprocessed kinda disagrees with you there. Add to that the fact that it's not difficult to find cases of police/prosecutors/school officials doing their best to convince victims to not press charges or simply resolving them as 'unfounded' (just a few weeks ago a canadian newspaper published an analysis of sexual assault/rape cases and found that on average 20% of cases are resolved as "unfounded", while in some locations it is as high as one third of the cases, leading to pretty much all provinces ordering a review of all such cases) and you can see how the reality is not that great.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

...some guy staring at me for a length of time while he has a sexual fantasy about us is a part of rape culture because both people are forcing their sexual intent upon me without my consent.
...I also didn't stand in a sexy pose or start playfully teasing this person who is staring at me daydreaming about the things we'd do in a bedroom- that is their own fantasy that I'm now aware of because they won't break eye contact within my general direction.

Not to make light of any harassment you may be experiencing in your area, but it sounds like there might possibly be some chaff mixed in with the wheat here.

The first two highlighted portions are not sexual assault, they are not rape. They are thought crimes.
The third highlighted portion lends itself to the disturbing notion that the first two can be inferred simply by the act of staring.

 

[AudriTwo]

~*Base Mom*~

 

[Gen]

The first two highlighted portions are not sexual assault, they are not rape. They are thought crimes.

She's not claiming that they are sexual assault or rape? I'm not sure how many times Liora (and others) can say "im not saying this rape" before people stop replying "staring isn't rape!!!!".

 

[justjoinedtopost]

She's not claiming that they are sexual assault or rape? I'm not sure how many times Liora (and others) can say "im not saying this rape" before people stop replying "staring isn't rape!!!!".

Oh?

RAPE culture...

The behavior of ... some guy staring at me for a length of time while he has a sexual fantasy about us is a part of RAPE culture because both people are forcing their sexual intent upon me without my consent.

Are we going to link RAPE with this movement or not? Let's make up our fucking minds.

 

[Gen]

Are we going to link RAPE with this movement or not? Let's make up our fucking minds.

Link or equate? Those are two very different things (just like staring and rape!!).

Saying something contributes to rape culture isn't saying it's rape. It's saying it contributes to rape culture. Culture is half of the phrase and one that maybe needs more emphasis in this discussion.

 

[Mila_]

Link or equate? Those are two very different things (just like staring and rape!!).

Saying something contributes to rape culture isn't saying it's rape. It's saying it contributes to rape culture. Culture is half of the phrase and one that maybe needs more emphasis in this discussion.

These nebulous terms are always used to muddle reality.

Let's look at it from a different perspective. Let's say I believe there is a "murder culture" in our society. What would you interpret from that phrase? I would expect it to mean something like... we applaud murders or celebrate murderers. That is a culture that celebrates murder. And perhaps someone could argue that yes, we indeed do these things because we have a fascination with murderers like Charles Manson, we make movies out of him, present him as a sexy musician with a wild side, etc. I would ask you for evidence that this is a pervasive thing and not just something that happens with exceptional cases and charismatic psychopaths like Manson. You wouldn't be able to argue that this is a pervasive problem though because it isn't. Murder isn't celebrated in our culture. So in order to insist that this is a real problem you need to expand the subject of the phrase to include other things that aren't murder. For example.. to say that any violent act of any sort contributes to murder and to murder culture. So... a mother spanking her child is part of Murder Culture, gang rap is part of Murder Culture and so is every single movie about the mob. Sure, you can justify whatever the fuck you want when the subject of the phrase is a fuzzy mess. But it is dishonest. You end up reaching ridiculous conclusions and looking to ban Al Pacino from Hollywood as a result.

 

[Booty_4U]

- Semantics and ~critiques~ regarding the term "rape culture" does nothing to help victims, or stop rape. In my opinion it derails meaningful conversation about the actual impacts of rape and non-consent in our society.
- Acts of non-consent (including touching stranger's private parts, staring at someone with sexual intent, catcalling, etc) I personally consider to fall under the umbrella term "rape culture" because as much as y'all say these things aren't "acceptable" in society, they ARE accepted all the damn time. I've been sexually assaulted in public, and literally no one cared. This has happened to multiple people I know..
- No one is saying staring is the same as groping, or that groping is the same as rape.
- Why would we prioritize the MINORITY of people who like getting stared at and/or groped by strangers, over the MAJORITY of people (especially all of the vulnerable people, like KIDS!) who don't want to be objectified. Why let that behavior slide?
- Why would we prioritize the MINORITY "false rape accusations" over the MAJORITY of real rape accusations? Why is taking an accused rapists' side ok??? What kind of fucked up society says it's ok to believe accused rapists, before they believe alleged rape victims, when we all know rape is under reported and the MAJORITY of people who report rapes are telling the truth?!
- I personally feel like those who make light of non-consensual situations need to take a seat. If you're ok with the way society is, that's fine. We get it. What you're preaching is already the status quo.... we've heard it before, we hear it all the time. Some of us believe society can do better, don't take it personally.
- The vast majority of rape cases are not women claiming rape after regretful sex. The vast majority of rapes happen in within relationships, in the Army (etc) and to CHILDREN. Making rape victims a priority SHOULD be societies' main concern, but instead victims are silenced and accused of being liars. Victims are talked over by people who do not empathize, because we as a society do not teach people to *actually* empathize and listen to victims.

 

[Luckyfoxxy]

Booty_4u rape will never be stopped. Same goes for murder or theft. Killers, rapists and thieves might be stopped, but these things will happen in a sociaty. The thing is, joking, staring, catcalling or hitting on somebody isn't "linked" to rape and isn't a rape culture.
And you aren't helping anyone either by spreading hysteria.
Also please don't put words in my mouth

 

[Booty_4U]

Booty_4u rape will never be stopped. Same goes for murder or theft. Killers, rapists and thieves might be stopped, but these things will happen in a sociaty. The thing is, joking, staring, catcalling or hitting on somebody isn't "linked" to rape and isn't a rape culture.
And you aren't helping anyone either by spreading hysteria.
Also please don't put words in my mouth

I agree that there will probably always be fringe rapists, BUT we don't have to have a society that allows domestic rape and incest to be SO pervasive and common. I disagree with the sentiment that joking, catcalling, etc are not linked to non-consent being acceptable (or just completely ignored) within society. And calling a woman you disagree with "hysterical" is cute, but unfortunately the soul crushing effect of living within a "rape culture" is very real for a lot of people.

I like being catcalled. It makes me feel attractive. I'm fairly sure I'm not alone in this matter. Can it get annoying? Yes. Should we penalize it and other expressions of attraction and put it in the broad and menacing sounding category of "rape culture"? No, that's a demented and quite horrifying idea.
Because once you paint it as a problem, you will have to do something about it. Private jokes become a matter of public outrage. Staring and being awkward is blown out of proportion. I do not like the amount of pressure that is put on men to become scared of accidently "stare-raping" anyone because timid and mild men are not what I'm attracted to, and not what I would like to someday raise children with.
I understand women just want to feel safe - but to what extent? You can't cover the world in a bubble wrap, there are risks involved and sometimes you should take them. Sometimes it makes a life better, more challanging, more enjoyable for it not to be completely safe.

^ Literally what you said... you put your relationship priorities above other people's right to live without fear of being sexually harassed... {edited: originally said "molested/raped" which was my own association w/rape culture, not theirs}

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Link or equate?

Excellent question.

Those are two very different things (just like staring and rape!!).

Saying something contributes to rape culture isn't saying it's rape. It's saying it contributes to rape culture. Culture is half of the phrase and one that maybe needs more emphasis in this discussion.

Oh lookee me! I can do the Semantic Two-step!!
You are playing word games.
Apologies, I know I am a smart alecky asshole. They tried to beat it out of me.

Put down your feels for a moment, and put on your little thinking cap. No one is going to take anything from you, deny any pain you may have gone through, or stop you from trying to change things for the better as you read on...

The first two highlighted portions are not sexual assault, they are not rape. They are thought crimes.
The third highlighted portion lends itself to the disturbing notion that the first two can be inferred simply by the act of staring.

Were my statements here accurate?

 

[swagger]

Does anyone else believe that Guy at least needs to show up in the mess he made? Get in here Guy!!

 

[AudriTwo]

Who is living in fear on a constant day that they are going to be raped by random strangers in Western worlds? Are we living in Robocop Universe Detroit? If so please reach out! GET HELP! WE WILL HELP YOU!

Our society doesn't allow domestic rape. I have never ever EVER heard of a current case were a it was ruled a husband legally rape his wife. Like in India, for example. If so please point me to it.

 

[Gen]

Excellent question.


Oh lookee me! I can do the Semantic Two-step!!
You are playing word games.
Apologies, I know I am a smart alecky asshole. They tried to beat it out of me.

Put down your feels for a moment, and put on your little thinking cap. No one is going to take anything from you, deny any pain you may have gone through, or stop you from trying to change things for the better as you read on...

Were my statements here accurate?

Literally nothing I said was about my ~feels~. You're being incredibly condescending and obnoxious, which is par for the course but it sucks when discussions that should be interesting get bogged down with snark.

Anyway. I've said nothing about my own thoughts on rape culture so you don't need to assume my position. My point was you're continuing to ignore the multiple times it's been said that nobody here is considering staring to be rape. It's not word games to say that rape culture is different from rape.

 

[AudriTwo]

Does anyone else believe that Guy at least needs to show up in the mess he made? Get in here Guy!!

FIX IT!

 

[Booty_4U]

Who is living in fear on a constant day that they are going to be raped by random strangers in Western worlds?

People who live in high crime areas... People of small stature... People who've previously been raped by a stranger... People with disabilities... etc etc etc

Our society doesn't allow domestic rape. I have never ever EVER heard of a current case were a it was ruled a husband legally rape his wife. Like in India, for example. If so please point me to it.

Comparing "current cases" where husbands were "legally allowed" to rape, is a false equivalence/derailment. Most domestic rapes are not reported to the police, because the victim is too afraid of the consequences of speaking up. If society made it so these rape victims felt supported and protected, more people would make reports... but until then we live in a society that silences victims and tells them their liars, they deserve it, they're bad parents, etc, so people stay silent. That is part of what I'm talking about when I use the term "rape culture".

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Literally nothing I said was about my ~feels~. You're being incredibly condescending and obnoxious, which is par for the course but it sucks when discussions that should be interesting get bogged down with snark.

Anyway. I've said nothing about my own thoughts on rape culture so you don't need to assume my position. My point was you're continuing to ignore the multiple times it's been said that nobody here is considering staring to be rape. It's not word games to say that rape culture is different from rape.

Yes, apologies for the snark. I mean that seriously too.

I am still trying to get a better understanding for what we are talking about when we say "rape culture". I am not assuming your position, but I am definitely trying to feel it out.

The first two highlighted portions are not sexual assault, they are not rape. They are thought crimes.
The third highlighted portion lends itself to the disturbing notion that the first two can be inferred simply by the act of staring.

Were my statements here accurate?

 

[AudriTwo]

People who live in high crime areas... People of small stature... People who've previously been raped by a stranger... People with disabilities... etc etc etc


Comparing "current cases" where husbands were "legally allowed" to rape, is a false equivalence/derailment. Most domestic rapes are not reported to the police, because the victim is too afraid of the consequences of speaking up. If society made it so these rape victims felt supported and protected, more people would make reports... but until then we live in a society that silences victims and tells them their liars, they deserve it, they're bad parents, etc, so people stay silent. That is part of what I'm talking about when I use the term "rape culture".

But I have lived in many low income crime riddled places. I am very very small in stature too. I have been raped by a stranger in a mall parking lot in a very wealthy area.

How is that a derailment? Domestic rape cases aren't usually reported for that persons individual reasons, which I think is an important to factor. I think that has more to do with trauma then society shaming victims. Example: When I was first sexually assaulted when I was younger, I didn't tell anyone because the trauma was too over whelming. Also that fucked up person threatened me. As an adult I have been able to heal through therapy and have reached out.

 

[SMuser69]

People who live in high crime areas... People of small stature... People who've previously been raped by a stranger... People with disabilities... etc etc etc

They are easier marks for HUNDREDS of possible crimes not just rape. People like that are marks for criminals because of education or situation awareness. You want to protect them from one type of crime and ignore every other possible crime they might have commited against them?

Comparing "current cases" where husbands were "legally allowed" to rape, is a false equivalence/derailment. Most domestic rapes are not reported to the police, because the victim is too afraid of the consequences of speaking up. If society made it so these rape victims felt supported and protected, more people would make reports... but until then we live in a society that silences victims and tells them their liars, they deserve it, they're bad parents, etc, so people stay silent. That is part of what I'm talking about when I use the term "rape culture".

Where do you get this info? Most everyone else that has posted to this thread as at least tried to link some source to their statements. What you have is an OPINION. You have NO WAY to know that most rapes are not reported. These are the sort of things Trumps says and annoys people that want some source or facts.

Also you're again combining the state and society together. I've NEVER met anyone in society that doesn't feel a victim of a crime shouldn't be able to get justice. The STATE needs PROOF to act. Not having proof isn't calling someone a liar it's the minimum for due process to begin. What makes your WORD on something hold more weight than the accused. I love to get criminals off the street but I hate seeing innocent people having their lives thrown away in jail because of heresay evidence.

I'm not joining the mob because a woman a don't know screams and points at another person.

 

[Gen]

Yes, apologies for the snark. I mean that seriously too.

I am still trying to get a better understanding for what we are talking about when we say "rape culture". I am not assuming your position, but I am definitely trying to feel it out.

Were my statements here accurate?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but here is what I was trying to get at. I feel like the back-and-forth in the thread about "staring contributes to rape culture" and "staring isn't rape" is cleared up by saying there's a difference between "this is rape" and "this contributes to rape culture". So it seemed to me that your post was presuming Liora was saying it was rape (or equivalent to), and my point was to say continuing to act as though one side is saying that, after they've clarified it, is just spinning our wheels on a non-existent argument.

As for my position - I don't like the term rape culture, it's too slippery and nebulous for me, and I don't think it aligns with my views. I've learned about it at school and online but never heard it defined it a way that makes sense to me.

I think the biggest contribution to a rape culture, if there is one, is what I outlined in my earlier post -- the legal system can't help in the majority of cases. Not only does this allow rapists to take advantage of that, but it fosters frustration and a sense of injustice amongst victims, which I think contributes to the idea that there's a rape culture. If a crime is committed against you, and you can't legally get justice for it, I can understand where the idea that our culture supports rape can start to manifest. It just doesn't manifest personally, to me, because I can't think of a better solution of how to deal with it. I can't think of how to balance the lack of evidence with fairness.

 

[JoleneBrody]

I've only skimmed responses so far, but:

I suspect the disagreement over rape culture comes heavily from pocket communities. Some specific pockets *do* have the whole "bro frat jocks jeering and fistbumping over that pic of a girl that got leaked and jokes a little too often about all the alcohol they're gonna feed to the chicks at their parties"

but I'm starting to get the impression that this exists in really specific pockets in specific communities. For example, I once talked to a girl who shared my views on mostly everything. She said that she thought sexism no longer existed, that rape culture was a myth, that women were treated equally, and had experienced this her whole life - until she got a specific job in a specific company.

So I think people who believe rape culture exists are people who've had experiences, frequently harmful, with these pockets.

And people who think it doesn't exist are people who've lived their whole lives witnessing men being nothing but respectful and kind to women.

So if these two groups clash, assuming that each other must have had the same experience, then the first group comes off as oversensitive and eager to play the victim, while the second group appears to be insensitive and privileged assholes.

These are sometimes true yes! But I think probably a huge amount of the time the problem actually comes down to really different cultural experiences.

--

Me personally? As a 25 year old woman who's lived in 6 cities in the last 5 years and spent a full year of it traveling, I don't think I've ever experienced rape culture. Lucky? Maybe, sure - but it's just a demonstration that some people can live their lives, eyes wide open, and only ever see humans treating one another kindly.

The unites states specifically is probably the most culturally diverse single country in the entire world! One state to another can be so culturally different that they might as well be different countries. It would only seem natural to assume when discussing a culture based issue that it would be drastically different throughout the different cultures.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Does anyone else believe that Guy at least needs to show up in the mess he made? Get in here Guy!!

No I don't. First of all this isn't a mess, it very interesting and thought provoking thread. Guy, likes to ask questions some rather fun and some are serious. I'm making an assumption here, but I think he finds the discussion enlighting as he seeks to develop better social skills.

I'm opinionated as hell, and thought about this issue a fair amount, but I'm struggling to contribute to add a new perspective. If Guy wants to chip-in he sure is welcome to but I don't think he needs to. My $.02.

 

[EspiKvlt]

Rape, at its core, is putting your penis or another penetrating object inside a woman's vagina against her will.

No, it isn't. Cis men can rape cis men, cis women can rape cis women. Rape, at its core, is sexually violating a person who has not consented or who has revoked consent.

 

[swagger]

@HiGirlsRHot I was being facetious, I concur on the debate, and I too am finding difficulty in adding anything meritorious to the discussion.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but here is what I was trying to get at. I feel like the back-and-forth in the thread about "staring contributes to rape culture" and "staring isn't rape" is cleared up by saying there's a difference between "this is rape" and "this contributes to rape culture". So it seemed to me that your post was presuming Liora was saying it was rape (or equivalent to), and my point was to say continuing to act as though one side is saying that, after they've clarified it, is just spinning our wheels on a non-existent argument.

As for my position - I don't like the term rape culture, it's too slippery and nebulous for me, and I don't think it aligns with my views. I've learned about it at school and online but never heard it defined it a way that makes sense to me.

I think the biggest contribution to a rape culture, if there is one, is what I outlined in my earlier post -- the legal system can't help in the majority of cases. Not only does this allow rapists to take advantage of that, but it fosters frustration and a sense of injustice amongst victims, which I think contributes to the idea that there's a rape culture. If a crime is committed against you, and you can't legally get justice for it, I can understand where the idea that our culture supports rape can start to manifest. It just doesn't manifest personally, to me, because I can't think of a better solution of how to deal with it. I can't think of how to balance the lack of evidence with fairness.

It is a mess. Second two paragraphs, it sounds like I am pretty much on the same page as you.

Liora talks about being harassed or whatnot, I feel for her. Someone staring you down is clearly aggressive body language, whether they want to fight, fuck, or whatever. It is supposed to feel uncomfortable.

Anyways, sorry again for the snark.

^ Literally what you said... you put your relationship priorities above other people's right to live without fear of being sexually harassed...

You have NO "right" to live without fear.

Who put such nonsense in your pretty little head?