ACF 2012 Presidential Election Poll

[Bocefish]

Yes, I hear references to Romney's anti women stuff every day

Last poll I saw dated today had both candidates tied at 47% among women voters nationally.

:/ And your point is?

Maybe you're hearing things that women aren't since he's recently gained the 16 points he was previously behind Obama on women's approval ratings.

 

[morment]

I don't know what he'll do about abortion legislation, he's changed his stance so many times it's ridiculous.

You can apply that to pretty much every topic under the sun, it's one of the main reasons I, and so many others, think he's a horrible candidate.

 

[jackie_O]

Yes, I hear references to Romney's anti women stuff every day

Last poll I saw dated today had both candidates tied at 47% among women voters nationally.

:/ And your point is?

Maybe you're hearing things that women aren't since he's recently gained the 16 points he was previously behind Obama on women's approval ratings.

Women vote based on any number of things not JUST on women's health, and his approval rating has zip to do with whether you can say you agree or disagree with his stance on women's issues. Not to mention that having a vagina doesn't confer any special knowledge upon you, and just because you have one and agree with Romney doesn't mean that his stances aren't shit.

 

[Bocefish]

Women vote based on any number of things not JUST on women's health, and his approval rating has zip to do with whether you can say you agree or disagree with his stance on women's issues. Not to mention that having a vagina doesn't confer any special knowledge upon you, and just because you have one and agree with Romney doesn't mean that his stances aren't shit.

I never said women vote solely on women's health issues. If Romney really was referencing anti-women "stuff" daily as he was accused of, I doubt his approval rating among women would have risen that much since the debates began. That is all.

 

[Nordling]

 

[Bocefish]

I really wish Powell would have run for President, he's always been a straight shooter as far as I could tell. Then again, as the saying goes... Any American who is prepared to run for president should automatically, by definition, be disqualified from ever doing so. -Gore Vidal

 

[jackie_O]

Women vote based on any number of things not JUST on women's health, and his approval rating has zip to do with whether you can say you agree or disagree with his stance on women's issues. Not to mention that having a vagina doesn't confer any special knowledge upon you, and just because you have one and agree with Romney doesn't mean that his stances aren't shit.

I never said women vote solely on women's health issues. If Romney really was referencing anti-women "stuff" daily as he was accused of, I doubt his approval rating among women would have risen that much since the debates began. That is all.

Correlation does not equal causation. His approval rating can't prove anything about his actions, only his actions can prove anything about his actions.

 

[Mirra]

Holy shit this thing has moved a lot since I was at work. Sorry some of what I'm going to say is going to go back a couple pages.

On Choices: The world and life in general are in large part the effects of people's PERSONAL choices. Even legislation and government budgets are shaped by the personal choices of those who create them. To say that something should not receive government funding because it's the result of a personal choice is ridiculous. Sounds to me like taxes should be abolished because every cent is being spent based on a choice that was made by someone.

On Roe v Wade: I'm sorry but I think the Supreme Court got this one right and I do NOT think it is a states rights issue. I don't care what level of government it is, NONE should have more control on a woman's body than Roe v. Wade allows. A governor has just as little say as the President and anyone who thinks otherwise seems silly to me. I feel like this is a situation of people observing the mote in another's eye while ignoring the beam in their own. Yeah, I just went biblical.

On Women Voting: It boggles my mind that women's rights should still play such a big part in politics. I'm sorry you ladies have to take your ability to make your own decisions about your body into account and weigh it against the rest of each candidates platform because some crazy nut jobs think you apparently shouldn't be allowed to wear your big girl panties when it comes to certain decisions. The ones who don't want "their tax dollars" going towards something they disagree with need to get over themselves. The only way things will ever work is through compromise or complete hive mind. Until the Borg assimilate our entire planet, they're going to have to get used to "their tax dollars" occasionally being spent on programs they do not use and/or do not agree with.

This is something that drives me crazy and it's one of the reasons I can't get as excited about the Libertarian party despite agreeing with them by and large on social issues. The Libertarians and the Republicans seem have this amazing ability to divide people politically based on social and economic levels. They basically don't want the government ever actually HELPING anyone... ever. They believe it should be left up to individuals and non-government organizations to help and care for less fortunate people. Me? I'm cynical, a realist, or both. I feel a lot more people will be left to fend for themselves and ultimately will DIE from it if people and organizations who can pick and choose IF to help and WHO to help are left to it. We need to work together. We need to treat the nation with the chain analogy and try to firm up our weakest links. United we will stand and united to me doesn't include an exception for someone who can't hack it without some assistance.

Edit for a final thought: Sometimes all it takes is a little boost to push someone over the wall and make them self-reliant. You thought a fetus had potential? These people have survived childhood! Just imagine their potential!

 

[IsabellaSnow]

The choice is about her getting an abortion or giving birth to the child. That is the choice she must make.

Guess what? She wouldn't have to make that choice if some asshole hadn't raped her in the first place.....

Of course. Now that the situation changed, she has a choice to make while law enforcement does their job.

I wish I could prevent all rapes, murders, assaults, etc but that isn't reality.

You can not change other peoples actions, but you can change your own reactions. Your reaction is disgusting. If you cannot understand that then you are also disgusting and I'm not surprised Amber no longer wants anything to do with you. Jesus, I'm happy that my taxes go to the nhs and people do not have to pay or get insurance for operations etc. It's not the case in the states, but for me it's one of the reasons I'm extremely glad I live in the Uk.

Like Amber said, it was the sheer thoughtlessness, selfishness and lack of empathy that came across in your posts which is why it's so shocking and disgusting. No idea what has made you like that, or whether you were like that in the first place. But do you really want to be that person? The one that makes everyone else lose faith. Ugh.

 

[Jupiter551]

Passing a national ruling allowing abortion to states is just a chance for pro-lifers to get a second chance to ban it, that's ALL it is. The court made its ruling but instead of abiding by it, anti-abortionists just want a do-over.

 

[Just Me]

At least the President has some humor over the whole Trump story :lol:

 

[Just Me]

The whole crux of the craziness with the republicans and the comments on rape and abortion, come down to one thing. They feel women should be subservient to men. It fits with the bible and god's will they like to spout, it matches how they vote and it certainly shows in the latest round of off the cuff statements about rape and abortion. I really do not know how any woman could ever vote for a conservative right wing politician.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/25/real-republican-party-rape-platform?

 

[Just Me]

Obama on the other hand obviously has something to hide when something as simple as his passport info and school transcripts are a major issue.

Alright Bocefish, if you think this is simple, why don't you go to your town hall and post your passport info and school transcripts for your town to see? I would ask you to post them here, but you'd have to black your name out and then we couldn't know if they were real. In fact, everyone who's so concerned with Obama's passport info and school transcripts should just put their relevant information on a billboard for the world to see.

Personally, I don't care about his transcripts or passport, so mine will stay locked away in the safe, where I keep them private unless I need them to apply for a job, lest someone steal them and try to use my information as their own.

Passport: Never had one.

School transcripts: Too much work with all the schools I've attended during my childhood. I'll summarize: grade school Cs and Ds. Middle school Cs and Bs. High school Cs and Ds. Graduated with a 2.1 GPA one semester early.

I was a shitty student but the only student in my HS graduating class have a house paid for in cash by my own labor from my own business in my junior year.

I don't care about Obama's education, I base my opinion on his political record, including the record that shows he denied security requests 13 times, watched the attack in Benghazi in real time and did nothing to stop it. Then he denied it being a terrorist attack while using some stupid unrelated Youtube video as a cover up, then when facts started coming to light, his administration finally admitted to it and Hildabeast fell on the sword to save the administration. No clue how to manage an economy, no clue how to manage military force, no clue how to manage foreign policy. Obama sucks. Period. He's clearly not the man for the job. He can't even and isn't willing to keep his ambassador safe and you trust him to keep us safe?

Benghazi attacks and procedures explained by someone from your side of aisle and from your favorite news source. (Oh wait, maybe you only read conservative blogs and chain emails)



No clue how to manage the economy? I have already posted once showing the fallacy of believing the republican party is good for the economy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2012/10/10/want-a-better-economy-history-says-vote-democrat/
http://www.economist.com/node/21565285?fsrc/scn/fb/wl/dc/consumerexpectations

No clue how manage a military force? Based on what? That he has not taken us to any new countries to conquer? :roll: I would post a link to our military killing Osama while Obama was the commander-in-chief but what would be the point.

No clue on foreign policy? I think your buddy Mitt even disagrees with you. Not intentionally of course :lol:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...79d1a2-1c5d-11e2-ad90-ba5920e56eb3_story.html

 

[LadyLuna]

The whole crux of the craziness with the republicans and the comments on rape and abortion, come down to one thing. They feel women should be subservient to men. It fits with the bible and god's will they like to spout, it matches how they vote and it certainly shows in the latest round of off the cuff statements about rape and abortion. I really do not know how any woman could ever vote for a conservative right wing politician.

I have met a female anti-feminist. She tried to speak at a women's college. I attended the event. She was saying that women belong at home, and men should take care of women. She got a lot of boo's, and someone later asked "doesn't she realize that without feminism, she would never have been able to give that speach?"

 

[jackie_O]

The whole crux of the craziness with the republicans and the comments on rape and abortion, come down to one thing. They feel women should be subservient to men. It fits with the bible and god's will they like to spout, it matches how they vote and it certainly shows in the latest round of off the cuff statements about rape and abortion. I really do not know how any woman could ever vote for a conservative right wing politician.

I have met a female anti-feminist. She tried to speak at a women's college. I attended the event. She was saying that women belong at home, and men should take care of women. She got a lot of boo's, and someone later asked "doesn't she realize that without feminism, she would never have been able to give that speach?"

There are definitely female anti-feminists. I like to think they are a fairly tiny group, but I'm really unwilling to look into it and have my heart broken. Not to mention all the splits in feminism, especially the anti-porn versus sex-positive feminism.

But considering all the women that spoke out against the possibility of women fighting in combat arms, I'd say the amount of anti-feminist women is higher than I'd like.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I really do not know how any woman could ever vote for a conservative right wing politician.

I haven't heard a conservative british politician saying anything like that about abortion! Yes england is very pro choice and you don't tend to really get that much crap for having abortions. Why would a conservative government want lots of women to have unwanted pregnancies? Labour is more pro on giving out benefits etc, whilst conservatives usually lower taxes but it's a lot harder to get help/benefits, seeing as conservatives tend to be pro working for what you get why would they want a load of mothers who aren't ready for children/don't want them who'd probably need benefits. Not really in their interests. Then again, if a politician in the Uk said something like that they'd probably be thrown out!
I don't really want to get into politics, it just annoys me when people have the attitude of "blame the conservatives!" labour can and has been just as bad and worse. I prefer to judge not on labels but on the actual government, their personal values and who's running it. I don't think being right wing has anything to do with whether they'd believe in abortion or not.

Do not forget that in the uk our first and only female prime minister was extremely conservative, so I hardly think they're against women's rights. Just sayin'.

Luna your post made me laugh! That is very very true. To be honest, I can understand that a lot of women wouldn't mind being looked after and just being expected to keep home, and with women's rights they do have that choice, but seeing as she's clearly speaking out etc, I don't think she as a person could be kept quiet with that. It took women a long time to get the vote, I know in the Uk it only got passed through after the war because women had been running the country, after that they couldn't really argue, it seems silly and pointless to try and fight against it.

 

[Nordling]

I really do not know how any woman could ever vote for a conservative right wing politician.

I haven't heard a conservative british politician saying anything like that about abortion! Yes england is very pro choice and you don't tend to really get that much crap for having abortions. Why would a conservative government want lots of women to have unwanted pregnancies? Labour is more pro on giving out benefits etc, whilst conservatives usually lower taxes but it's a lot harder to get help/benefits, seeing as conservatives tend to be pro working for what you get why would they want a load of mothers who aren't ready for children/don't want them who'd probably need benefits. Not really in their interests. Then again, if a politician in the Uk said something like that they'd probably be thrown out!
I don't really want to get into politics, it just annoys me when people have the attitude of "blame the conservatives!" labour can and has been just as bad and worse. I prefer to judge not on labels but on the actual government, their personal values and who's running it. I don't think being right wing has anything to do with whether they'd believe in abortion or not.

Do not forget that in the uk our first and only female prime minister was extremely conservative, so I hardly think they're against women's rights. Just sayin'.

Luna your post made me laugh! That is very very true. To be honest, I can understand that a lot of women wouldn't mind being looked after and just being expected to keep home, and with women's rights they do have that choice, but seeing as she's clearly speaking out etc, I don't think she as a person could be kept quiet with that. It took women a long time to get the vote, I know in the Uk it only got passed through after the war because women had been running the country, after that they couldn't really argue, it seems silly and pointless to try and fight against it.

Conservatives in the UK tend to be a lot less radical than in the US. (At least before Margaret Thatcher) lol

Way back when I was in HS, we had a foreign exchange student from London visit our class--he was a self-proclaimed Tory. My best friend at the time was a conservative Republican, he was a Goldwater man. I was a liberal Democrat. Anyway, my friend was THRILLED that the guy from the UK was a conservative...and said as much to the fellow. The guy turned to my friend and kind of sneeringly said something to the effect that "if I were living in America, I'd most likely be a liberal Democrat."

lol My friend was crestfallen.

 

[Mirra]

I suspect we can thank the GOP's adoption of "Family Values" as a major part of their strategy for some of the discrepancy between our conservatives and yours, Isabella. Unfortunately those socially conservative "Family Values" mean the GOP feels the need to legislate a bunch of things that I don't think are any of the government's business. It's where the sanctity of life (aka anti-abortion) and the sanctity of marriage (aka anti-gay marriage) come from! So I'll thank Karl Rove for being a major influence of bringing this brand of social conservatism to the mainstream GOP and making it very difficult for me to take their candidates seriously unless they're running against someone who is truly loony.

 

[Just Me]

I really do not know how any woman could ever vote for a conservative right wing politician.

I haven't heard a conservative british politician saying anything like that about abortion! Yes england is very pro choice and you don't tend to really get that much crap for having abortions. Why would a conservative government want lots of women to have unwanted pregnancies? Labour is more pro on giving out benefits etc, whilst conservatives usually lower taxes but it's a lot harder to get help/benefits, seeing as conservatives tend to be pro working for what you get why would they want a load of mothers who aren't ready for children/don't want them who'd probably need benefits. Not really in their interests. Then again, if a politician in the Uk said something like that they'd probably be thrown out!
I don't really want to get into politics, it just annoys me when people have the attitude of "blame the conservatives!" labour can and has been just as bad and worse. I prefer to judge not on labels but on the actual government, their personal values and who's running it. I don't think being right wing has anything to do with whether they'd believe in abortion or not.

Do not forget that in the uk our first and only female prime minister was extremely conservative, so I hardly think they're against women's rights. Just sayin'.

Luna your post made me laugh! That is very very true. To be honest, I can understand that a lot of women wouldn't mind being looked after and just being expected to keep home, and with women's rights they do have that choice, but seeing as she's clearly speaking out etc, I don't think she as a person could be kept quiet with that. It took women a long time to get the vote, I know in the Uk it only got passed through after the war because women had been running the country, after that they couldn't really argue, it seems silly and pointless to try and fight against it.

I was only talking about American politics. A conservative right wing politician in England, is invariably more liberal than our left wing politicians. :lol: I am somewhat familiar with English politics since me mum is from there. To be more specific for our friends overseas, I was meaning our extremist right wing republicans, which most of the republican party has become.

What might be similar in the UK is the British National Party

 

[Nordling]

Yeah, American conservatives have always had at least a small segment who were downright nutty. Birchers, neo-fascists, religious nutters, etc. But until The Southern Strategy, they didn't really hold that much influence on the GOP. The marriage of economic conservatives with radical religionists has been a disaster for the GOP and the US, IMHO.

 

[tubby556]

Really cos I could have sworn you were going to suggest that if she calls the police, why should taxpayers pay to hunt this "alleged" rapist, that it should be on her dime if she wants something done about it.

Nope. This is a republic. Society pays for certain members to act as agents of the government on behalf of society to arrest criminals, bring them to court, give them a fair trial, and carry out justice as the law states. That is the essence of a republic (America is not a democracy). That is the role of the government and for government to function it must be funded by taxes from its citizens. That is what law enforcement is.

 

[tubby556]

It was not a comparison between those. It was a comparison between taxpayer funding based on choices.

Given the seriousness of rape, your comparison remark was disgusting and inappropriate.

After dealing with over 1,000 rapes in my law enforcement career and arresting about the same number of rapists, forgive me if I get callous when I see the worst in humanity. You have to put up your guard when your heart gets ripped out of your chest. Have you ever known a rape victim? Have you ever watched them wretch in disgust and humility and helplessness when they are recalling their torture and experience? Have you ever seen a woman go into panic induced convulsions at the jingling of keys because that's what her rapist did to taunt her for the 46 days she was repeatedly raped, tortured, cut, choked, burned, defecated up, and then dumped into a garbage dumpster? Have you ever tried to comfort a 6yo girl who wants to die because she's tired of her mother holding her down so her stepfather can rape and sodomize her? I bet not. Don't come at me like I don't know the realities of rape or don't understand what they went through. I was sexually abused until I was in my early teens. You don't fucking know me. Don't pretend that you do. You have no idea what I've been through in my life. I guarantee most on this very forum couldn't handle what I've seen in my lifetime.

 

[tubby556]

It's also a DELUSIONAL comparison since, after said rapist goes to prison (probably after assaulting a few more women because most don't come forward or have trouble proving that an assault occurred), a pretty large amount of tax payer money will pay for his life including any healthcare he requires. So, once again, the predator gets better treatment than the victim.

Which is bullshit. Rapists should be executed. I've been trying to get the death penalty reinstated for rapists, but I'm not successful yet.

Here are the statistics for inmate costs for tax payers in Michigan. http://www.vera.org/files/price-of-pris ... -sheet.pdf

Pretty sickening isn't it?

[qyote]Even from a financial standpoint, it certainly would make more sense to argue about how to slow crime than whether a victim should be helped financially, not helped financially or forced to carry a child she didn't consent to making.[/quote]
That's where execution comes in play.

 

[tubby556]

Taxpayers foot the bill for rape kits done in the ER. By your logic, that should stop, too, right? :roll:

The rape kits in my area aren't taxpayer funded.

Back reading...

:shock: Who the fuck pays for them?

I do. Out of my own pocket. Not with my taxes. The rape kits in my county are bought and paid for by me, not the taxpayers of this county.

 

[jackie_O]

Taxpayers foot the bill for rape kits done in the ER. By your logic, that should stop, too, right? :roll:

The rape kits in my area aren't taxpayer funded.

Back reading...

:shock: Who the fuck pays for them?

I do. Out of my own pocket. Not with my taxes. The rape kits in my county are bought and paid for by me, not the taxpayers of this county.

You pay for all the rape kits? That's pretty impressive, you must be such a nice guy.

 

[Nordling]

:lol:

 

[jackie_O]

It was not a comparison between those. It was a comparison between taxpayer funding based on choices.

Given the seriousness of rape, your comparison remark was disgusting and inappropriate.

After dealing with over 1,000 rapes in my law enforcement career and arresting about the same number of rapists, forgive me if I get callous when I see the worst in humanity. You have to put up your guard when your heart gets ripped out of your chest. Have you ever known a rape victim? Have you ever watched them wretch in disgust and humility and helplessness when they are recalling their torture and experience? Have you ever seen a woman go into panic induced convulsions at the jingling of keys because that's what her rapist did to taunt her for the 46 days she was repeatedly raped, tortured, cut, choked, burned, defecated up, and then dumped into a garbage dumpster? Have you ever tried to comfort a 6yo girl who wants to die because she's tired of her mother holding her down so her stepfather can rape and sodomize her? I bet not. Don't come at me like I don't know the realities of rape or don't understand what they went through. I was sexually abused until I was in my early teens. You don't fucking know me. Don't pretend that you do. You have no idea what I've been through in my life. I guarantee most on this very forum couldn't handle what I've seen in my lifetime.

Spent years as a rape victim advocate, I've said that previously in this thread. So fuck you very much for trying to use their heart wrenching stories for you bullshit trivialization of rape victims. Yes YOU trivialized it by comparing it to getting to live out your cheap shitty jizz fantasy.

Are you even for real? I have seen how the so called law enforcement treat real rape victims, and that its pretty fucking shitty. Don't come up in here acting like you give a fuck, you clearly don't. YOU are the one who wants to make it difficult to even prosecute rape perpetrators by making the VICTIM PAY TO GATHER EVIDENCE.

And lets not forget with the frequency of rape in the US, there are probably some models here who feel revictimized by your own bullshit. So fuck you, if you're a troll, it worked.

Now I'm taking myself out of this conversation, because my sanity demands it.

 

[tubby556]

I've avoided this thread like the plague but I just have to say something.
If there is free counseling and medical exams for rape victims provided by taxpayers then why shouldn't there be free abortions?
It's all part of the rape aftermath. The only difference is exactly what that aftermath entails. Many people pay for their own medical (mental and physical) after care but if they wanted to they could find many programs funded by state and federal dollars.

First off, it isn't free. Someone has to pay for it. Secondly, it seems many missed the entire point with this issue. I guess I'll have to explain it. Abortion is a controversial topic. The point here is to uphold and protect Roe v Wade, but not force those against the decision to fund something they don't support. I will admit it's a slippery slope. Lastly, the medical and physical aftercare is part of the government's role to care for the victim just like it is for the convicted during their incarceration or execution. The support for choosing to bear the child or to terminate the pregnancy is NOT part of the government's role to care for the victim. Her on the forum, I see only support for aborting the pregnancy and no support for childbirth. Interesting.

The only difference here is a fetus and whether or not you have a personal opposition to it. If you have a personal opposition to free medical and mental assistance to victims of of violent and sexual crimes then you are not someone I want anywhere near me!

It's not free. It costs money and someone has to pay for it.

 

[tubby556]

I have to wonder if you would even stop to help if you saw a woman being assaulted. You attitude seems to be "you are not my problem."

I suppose all the homeless shelters should close as well. And orphans? FUCK THEM!

You've got me all wrong.

 

[Nordling]

I've avoided this thread like the plague but I just have to say something.
If there is free counseling and medical exams for rape victims provided by taxpayers then why shouldn't there be free abortions?
It's all part of the rape aftermath. The only difference is exactly what that aftermath entails. Many people pay for their own medical (mental and physical) after care but if they wanted to they could find many programs funded by state and federal dollars.

First off, it isn't free. Someone has to pay for it. Secondly, it seems many missed the entire point with this issue. I guess I'll have to explain it. Abortion is a controversial topic. The point here is to uphold and protect Roe v Wade, but not force those against the decision to fund something they don't support. I will admit it's a slippery slope. Lastly, the medical and physical aftercare is part of the government's role to care for the victim just like it is for the convicted during their incarceration or execution. The support for choosing to bear the child or to terminate the pregnancy is NOT part of the government's role to care for the victim. Her on the forum, I see only support for aborting the pregnancy and no support for childbirth. Interesting.

The only difference here is a fetus and whether or not you have a personal opposition to it. If you have a personal opposition to free medical and mental assistance to victims of of violent and sexual crimes then you are not someone I want anywhere near me!

It's not free. It costs money and someone has to pay for it.

What you find "interesting" isn't about supporting childbirth or not...it's about the privacy and choices of individual women. When a woman decides to have a child, you will see plenty of support.