ACF 2012 Presidential Election Poll

[Jupiter551]

Obama got owned in that debate!

Hardly, Obama actually thought about his answers - Romney just promised the world with no actual way to back up what he was saying. He proved he's a good liar, big deal.

 

[Jupiter551]

I love Betty Bowers lol, here's another one about mormons and their desires to deny rights to gay couples.

 

[Bocefish]

Making fun of his religion and wife, good job guys. Obama's spiritual campaign advisor and mentor for twenty years was so much better...





Obama has been lying his ass off from day one about Rev. Wright, Acorn, his promises if elected and ever since being elected. He's lied about so many things it's beyond ludicrous.

 

[Jupiter551]

Mormonism is a religion now? Last I checked it fitted every textbook definition of a cult.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Mormonism is a religion now? Last I checked it fitted every textbook definition of a cult.

Really what textbooks is that? There are roughly the same number of Mormon's as Jews (14 million worldwide) and so why is one a cult and the other religion?

Frankly, pretty much every religion has basic tenets (i.e. virgin birth, parting of seas, resurrection) which is seem pretty crazy to non-believers.

 

[Jupiter551]

Mormonism is a religion now? Last I checked it fitted every textbook definition of a cult.

Really what textbooks is that? There are roughly the same number of Mormon's as Jews (14 million worldwide) and so why is one a cult and the other religion?

Frankly, pretty much every religion has basic tenets (i.e. virgin birth, parting of seas, resurrection) which is seem pretty crazy to non-believers.

Unlike most religions mormonism is new enough to disprove absolutely everything that their sham prophet dictated from the darkness of his hat. The "lost book of the bible" that he claimed he found, which was an Egyptian heiroglyphic text, actually turned out to be part of a very common funeral ritual from the period. Course he didn't know that because the Rosetta Stone hadn't been found til a few years later.

Not going to debate with someone who doesn't think mormonism is a cult, but Jews aren't ostracised if they leave, pressured not to leave by threats of being cut off from contact with their family, refuse to engage in debate, and entirely disregard the fact that science disproves some of their claims. Mormons do all of those things. They insist that native americans are in fact the lost tribe of Israel, despite conclusive DNA evidence to the contrary. Their book also claims black people were turned black because they sided with the devil in some eternal battle with god. (Who lives on Kolob and fucks his harem of spiritual wives).
http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/cults.htm

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Not going to debate with someone who doesn't think mormonism is a cult, but Jews aren't ostracised if they leave, pressured not to leave by threats of being cut off from contact with their family, refuse to engage in debate, and entirely disregard the fact that science disproves some of their claims. Mormons do all of those things. They insist that native americans are in fact the lost tribe of Israel, despite conclusive DNA evidence to the contrary. Their book also claims black people were turned black because they sided with the devil in some eternal battle with god. (Who lives on Kolob and fucks his harem of spiritual wives).
http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/cults.htm

First of all even though I have had some Mormon friends, and many Mormon business associate. I am not going to defend the church because A. I am an agnostic, B. I haven't studied the book or Mormon, and C. most of their believes seem wacky to me. That said, I don't think their prejudices and treatment of non-member is any worse than many religious and certainly better than many type of fundamentalist Islamic groups.

I like the link you posted very much and suggest you read it carefully.

Here is what the author says.

Think about Jesus and his following when he walked the earth, and even those who turned to worshipping him after his death. That fits the stated definition of a cult. But when a new religion outlives its founder (as Christianity and Mormons have but as the Waco group, Heaven's Gate, and Jim Jones' People's Temple did not) and survives for say, one hundred years or more and gradually makes its way into the mainstream of a society (it took Christianity about four centuries before it was fully accepted in ancient Roman society), then it is no longer considered a "cult" (expect by dogmatic outsiders). (Note the distinction between a group being considered a cult and actually being one).

Another distinction that might be made between a cult and sect or new religion is to see if it is harmful to the mass of its followers (ReligiousTolerance.org distinguishes between "doomsday" and "harmless" cults). The Mormons did not end up dead like the followers of David Koresh or Jim Jones.

So clearly the author the of the link you posted disagree with you about Mormon's being a cult.
In fact by the important metric does it harm the followers, the Mormon's actually appear to be helpful to the followers. Places like Utah with large concentrations of Mormon's have lower crime, less social problems like drug or alcohol abuse, higher income and education than the rest of the US.

So I am still looking for that textbook.

 

[Jupiter551]

Not going to debate with someone who doesn't think mormonism is a cult, but Jews aren't ostracised if they leave, pressured not to leave by threats of being cut off from contact with their family, refuse to engage in debate, and entirely disregard the fact that science disproves some of their claims. Mormons do all of those things. They insist that native americans are in fact the lost tribe of Israel, despite conclusive DNA evidence to the contrary. Their book also claims black people were turned black because they sided with the devil in some eternal battle with god. (Who lives on Kolob and fucks his harem of spiritual wives).
http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/cults.htm

First of all even though I have had some Mormon friends, and many Mormon business associate. I am not going to defend the church because A. I am an agnostic, B. I haven't studied the book or Mormon, and C. most of their believes seem wacky to me. That said, I don't think their prejudices and treatment of non-member is any worse than many religious and certainly better than many type of fundamentalist Islamic groups.

I like the link you posted very much and suggest you read it carefully.

Here is what the author says.

Think about Jesus and his following when he walked the earth, and even those who turned to worshipping him after his death. That fits the stated definition of a cult. But when a new religion outlives its founder (as Christianity and Mormons have but as the Waco group, Heaven's Gate, and Jim Jones' People's Temple did not) and survives for say, one hundred years or more and gradually makes its way into the mainstream of a society (it took Christianity about four centuries before it was fully accepted in ancient Roman society), then it is no longer considered a "cult" (expect by dogmatic outsiders). (Note the distinction between a group being considered a cult and actually being one).

Another distinction that might be made between a cult and sect or new religion is to see if it is harmful to the mass of its followers (ReligiousTolerance.org distinguishes between "doomsday" and "harmless" cults). The Mormons did not end up dead like the followers of David Koresh or Jim Jones.

So clearly the author the of the link you posted disagree with you about Mormon's being a cult.
In fact by the important metric does it harm the followers, the Mormon's actually appear to be helpful to the followers. Places like Utah with large concentrations of Mormon's have lower crime, less social problems like drug or alcohol abuse, higher income and education than the rest of the US.

So I am still looking for that textbook.

I've read it, and i know there is debate. There are more than one way to harm people. I have a close friend who went through hell trying to get out of the Mormon church, was cut off from her family and friends - basically thrown out with nothing, people would no longer even talk to her.

Lower crime is a feature of many overly repressive societies. Hitler made the trains run on time.

Higher education? Do you have any idea what they teach? lol Go watch some videos about mormon archeology by so-called Professors from their so-called university. Or read more about it.

Academic freedom issues
Main article: Academic freedom at Brigham Young University
In 1992, the university drafted a new Statement on Academic Freedom,[77] specifying that limitations may be placed upon "expression with students or in public that: (1) contradicts or opposes, rather than analyzes or discusses, fundamental Church doctrine or policy; (2) deliberately attacks or derides the Church or its general leaders; or (3) violates the Honor Code because the expression is dishonest, illegal, unchaste, profane, or unduly disrespectful of others." These restrictions have caused some controversy as several professors have been disciplined according to the new rule. The American Association of University Professors has claimed that "infringements on academic freedom are distressingly common and that the climate for academic freedom is distressingly poor."[78] The new rules have not affected BYU's accreditation, as the university's chosen accrediting body allows "religious colleges and universities to place limitations on academic freedom so long as they publish those limitations candidly", according to associate academic vice president Jim Gordon.[79] The AAUP's concern was not with restrictions on the faculty member's religious expression but with a failure, as alleged by the faculty member and AAUP, that the restrictions had not been adequately specified in advance by BYU: "The AAUP requires that any doctrinal limitations on academic freedom be laid out clearly in writing. We [AAUP] concluded that BYU had failed to do so adequately."[80]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University

 

[Nordling]

I have no problem calling Mormonism a cult. Because of it's size, it's simply a better accepted cult than some of the less-well known cults. As far as "text book," I took that as simply an expression, not a literal.

Living in a country which has as a major basis of it's government, a separation of church and state, I point to the two speeches by JFK and Romney about their attitudes toward the wall of separation. JFK put his country first and verbally reinforced that wall, where Romney both waffled and said as much as believing that there is no wall.

Fuck him.

 

[Jupiter551]

I'd like to hear Romney's answer on what he would do if he became president and he was forced to make a decision that either conflicted with his religious beliefs, or conflicted with public interest. I'd really REALLY like to hear his response on that.

 

[Nordling]

I'd like to hear Romney's answer on what he would do if he became president and he was forced to make a decision that either conflicted with his religious beliefs, or conflicted with public interest. I'd really REALLY like to hear his response on that.

He'd probably call the questioner "boy" and then talk about something totally unrelated.

 

[jackie_O]

I'd like to hear Romney's answer on what he would do if he became president and he was forced to make a decision that either conflicted with his religious beliefs, or conflicted with public interest. I'd really REALLY like to hear his response on that.

I wouldn't vote for Romney with a gun to my head. But I can't fault him on his religion. I think that kind of thing is highly inappropriate. Anyway, here is what he said in a speech a couple of years ago:

"Almost 50 years ago another candidate from Massachusetts explained that he was an American running for president, not a Catholic running for president. Like him, I am an American running for president. I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith.

Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin."

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I have no problem calling Mormonism a cult. Because of it's size, it's simply a better accepted cult than some of the less-well known cults. As far as "text book," I took that as simply an expression, not a literal.

Living in a country which has as a major basis of it's government, a separation of church and state, I point to the two speeches by JFK and Romney about their attitudes toward the wall of separation. JFK put his country first and verbally reinforced that wall, where Romney both waffled and said as much as believing that there is no wall.

Fuck him.

Actually our country was a founded on the concept of religious tolerance. The wall of separation between church and state, isn't part of our constitution and is poorly understood by most people. Chief Justice Rehnquist say "The 'wall of separation between church and state' is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned."

I know the JFK speech you are talking about I have no idea what Romney speech you are talking about do you have a link?

If you want to hate Romney because of what he says or because what you think he beliefs be my guest. This is a lesser of two evils election IMO. However, I think calling Mormons a cult is rather ugly form of religious bigotry, and if you substitute Jews, Baptist, or Muslim it would be unacceptable in 21st century America.

 

[jackie_O]

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Text-of-Romney-s-speech-on-religion-1808188.php

Here's the text of the speech I used to grab the quote. I was having trouble finding a video, but I know one exists because that's where I first heard the speech about a year ago.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Text-of-Romney-s-speech-on-religion-1808188.php

Here's the text of the speech I used to grab the quote. I was having trouble finding a video, but I know one exists because that's where I first heard the speech about a year ago.

Thanks Jackie I hadn't seen that before, seems pretty non-controversial.

 

[Jupiter551]

So, you don't think his beliefs affect his stance on issues like gay marriage and abortion?

 

[jackie_O]

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Text-of-Romney-s-speech-on-religion-1808188.php

Here's the text of the speech I used to grab the quote. I was having trouble finding a video, but I know one exists because that's where I first heard the speech about a year ago.

Thanks Jackie I hadn't seen that before, seems pretty non-controversial.

Its got some stuff I agree with and some stuff I don't. You've seen what I agree with. It also says:

"We should acknowledge the Creator as did the Founders in ceremony and word. He should remain on our currency, in our pledge, in the teaching of our history..."

So it just is what it is.

I'm just not a fan of tearing him apart for believing something some people find strange and ridiculous. I'm a religious person, and if anyone else is a religious person they have to be able to look at their own faith and go "damn I believe some kinda weird stuff."

I find it much more appropriate and honest to look at the things he has said and done and judge him as a potential president on that alone. And where I am concerned, on that front he fails me miserably.

 

[jackie_O]

So, you don't think his beliefs affect his stance on issues like gay marriage and abortion?

I know Mormon's who have positive view points on gay marriage and abortion. I think we should judge his stance on issues like gay marriage and abortion for what they are regardless of what caused them.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I'm just not a fan of tearing him apart for believing something some people find strange and ridiculous. I'm a religious person, and if anyone else is a religious person they have to be able to look at their own faith and go "damn I believe some kinda weird stuff."

I find it much more appropriate and honest to look at the things he has said and done and judge him as a potential president on that alone. And where I am concerned, on that front he fails me miserably.

Makes tons of sense and exactly the point I was trying to make early, almost all religions have their share of things, that to put it charitably seem contrary to common sense and scientific evidence and are articles of faith.

The vast majority of religions in the US oppose gay marriage, the difference is most American have a cafeteria approach to their religion, I believe in Heaven and Hell, but I don't think being on the pill makes me go to hell. Mormon's tend to be more serious about their religion and believe almost all of the tenets. If social issues are very important to you than I can see why you won't vote for Romney.

I am a liberal on almost all social issues, conservative on economic issues, and belief in activist foreign policy, so neither Democrat, Republican, or Libertarian fit me well.

 

[Jupiter551]

I think we should judge his stance on issues like gay marriage and abortion for what they are

Intolerance, prejudice and discrimination? He used his position to block a Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decision to legalise gay marriage in Massachusetts by using an obscure hundred year old law that had been enacted to prevent interracial marriage. He spent a lot of time and energy trying to amend the constitution so that homosexual couples would never be allowed to marry, and stated on the record he would prefer they had no legal civil union either. This was, of course, after promising to uphold the rights of gays and lesbians during his election campaign.

Regardless if it's because he's Mormon or just an intolerant fucktard, he abused his position to deny legal rights to his constituents.

 

[jackie_O]

I think we should judge his stance on issues like gay marriage and abortion for what they are

Intolerance, prejudice and discrimination? He used his position to block a Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decision to legalise gay marriage in Massachusetts by using an obscure hundred year old law that had been enacted to prevent interracial marriage. He spent a lot of time and energy trying to amend the constitution so that homosexual couples would never be allowed to marry, and stated on the record he would prefer they had no legal civil union either. This was, of course, after promising to uphold the rights of gays and lesbians during his election campaign.

Regardless if it's because he's Mormon or just an intolerant fucktard, he abused his position to deny legal rights to his constituents.

Yes, that's exactly my point. His stances on these issues speak for themselves. Its petty to bash him on his faith, or say that he would make a bad president because he has a religion that others find weird or cultlike.

He should be held to standard based on his actual positions and stances alone. And like I said, those stances fail my standards.

 

[JickyJuly]

Mormonism is a religion now? Last I checked it fitted every textbook definition of a cult.

Really what textbooks is that? There are roughly the same number of Mormon's as Jews (14 million worldwide) and so why is one a cult and the other religion?

Frankly, pretty much every religion has basic tenets (i.e. virgin birth, parting of seas, resurrection) which is seem pretty crazy to non-believers.

Whatever textbook it is, I'm sure the Mormons will rewrite it a little, rename it and sell it on television. :lol: Bazinnng. Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

 

[Nordling]

I'd like to hear Romney's answer on what he would do if he became president and he was forced to make a decision that either conflicted with his religious beliefs, or conflicted with public interest. I'd really REALLY like to hear his response on that.

I wouldn't vote for Romney with a gun to my head. But I can't fault him on his religion. I think that kind of thing is highly inappropriate. Anyway, here is what he said in a speech a couple of years ago:

"Almost 50 years ago another candidate from Massachusetts explained that he was an American running for president, not a Catholic running for president. Like him, I am an American running for president. I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith.

Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin."

Totally agree. But as I referenced earlier, Romney is not JFK; Romney's relationship with his church and with his government are totally different...he gave his version of the JFK speech in which he asserted that unlike JFK, his church would and could affect his decisions. That is why I have no problem with dissing his religion. If JFK had said the same, then I'd diss Catholicism--but he didn't, he did just the opposite.

 

[jackie_O]

his church would and could affect his decisions.

Where did he say this? I'm willing to change my mind if that's true.

Either way I would find dissing his religion as a reason he is a bad candidate to be petty and childish. However if that is true you can definitely say that he would make a bad candidate because of his relationship with his faith. Which is still different. But that's still in addition to all the other reasons he is a shitty candidate.

 

[AllisonWilder]

his church would and could affect his decisions.

Where did he say this? I'm willing to change my mind if that's true.

Either way I would find dissing his religion as a reason he is a bad candidate to be petty and childish. However if that is true you can definitely say that he would make a bad candidate because of his relationship with his faith. Which is still different. But that's still in addition to all the other reasons he is a shitty candidate.

I agree that it's petty to diss the guy based solely on his religion. I don't identify with a religion and I don't fault him for being religious, the same as I don't fault any other politician for being religious. The fact that he doesn't seem to be able to separate his religious beliefs from his political stance is what's worrisome to me about the future of the country if he's elected.

 

[Nordling]

It was called his "Faith in America" speech...a long, winding dissertation that seems to contradict itself in many places...he calls for religious liberty and then states that his faith will "inform my Presidency..."

"These American values, this great moral heritage, is shared and lived in my religion as it is in yours. I was taught in my home to honor God and love my neighbor. I saw my father march with Martin Luther King. I saw my parents provide compassionate care to others, in personal ways to people nearby, and in just as consequential ways in leading national volunteer movements. I am moved by the Lord's words: 'For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me...'

"My faith is grounded on these truths. You can witness them in Ann and my marriage and in our family. We are a long way from perfect and we have surely stumbled along the way, but our aspirations, our values, are the self-same as those from the other faiths that stand upon this common foundation. And these convictions will indeed inform my presidency."

If you want to drudge through the whole thing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/06/us/politics/06text-romney.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[JickyJuly]

I think in an ideal world his religion wouldn't be an issue. In an ideal world, religious groups wouldn't be allowed in politics since they don't pay taxes. The Mormons have historically been very vocal in politics, and their ideas are extremely prejudice and dated. They've fought against the equal rights act (women), same sex marriage and interracial marriage. I think that there is change brewing among younger members of their church, but Mitt Romney is 65 years old. Black people weren't even allowed to join the church until 1978. He would have been 30ish then. That means that while his family lived in a fufu suburb outside of Detroit, they participated in a Church that preached hatred toward their neighbors.

The only thing worse than that in my opinion is that, Mitt Romney has spoken out in favor of letting Detroit die/go bankrupt and allowing the auto industry to fail. NO ONE who's grown up around Detroit or Flint and can say that should be trusted.

 

[Nordling]

And really, why are religions off the table when we discuss a candidate? The constitution does say there will be "no religious test," but that means that the GOVERNMENT may not dismiss a candidate for his religion--us citizens are free to discuss it freely.

 

[jackie_O]

It was called his "Faith in America" speech...a long, winding dissertation that seems to contradict itself in many places...he calls for religious liberty and then states that his faith will "inform my Presidency..."

Obama, and pretty much every president in memory, has used similar rhetoric in speeches. He certainly has made allusions to traditional christian beliefs and how they make this country run. So I don't find that quote particularly damning.

And sure the citizens are free to discuss his faith all they want, just as I am free to suggest it would be less petty to talk about the things he's actually done and said.

 

[Neudiin]

South Park on Mormons pretty much sums it up. Do watch it all...specially the last few seconds =)

Btw all religions are cults...just deal with it =)

Still not voting for Mittens....don't give a fuck what he says.

Oh and how different are the candidates?