#WomenAgainstFeminism

[I_Love_You503]

Do you still consider me to be a feminist, based on the things I have stated above? Are those views aligned with feminism?

While it's still up to you to identify as whatever you like, I do still consider you a feminist. If someone said they didn't believe in God, but they hated Richard Dawkins, militant atheism, they loved their local church's bake sales, and think religion was a force of good, I'd still consider them an atheist. To me it just seems like the best way to combat radical feminism is to insist moderate feminism is the standard, not the outlier. So the best way to make a more "seemingly" moderate feminism (I'd argue it still is moderate in essence) would be to encourage more moderate people to accept the banner.

But while you may "technically" be a feminist, I understand how shirking the term would better line up with your personal convictions. In a way I'd think it would be more convincing to claim "while I am technically a feminist by definition, I find the movement's flaws so egregious I insist on separating myself from it."

 

[Aella]

I would like to fix a stupid mistake in the above post - I said "the definition for egalitarianism is "egalitarianism,"" when I meant to say "the definition for egalitarianism is "equality for all."

I_Love_You, this might be technically correct.

The technical definition of 'retard' is 'mentally handicapped person.' Technically, if I were to call a mentally handicapped person a retard, it would really be simply a descriptor of their mental state.

However, the social understandings of the word 'retard' has changed over the years, and is now insulting and not something I choose to use. If you call a mentally handicapped person a retard, I will say "do not use that word, it is bad." And you might say "Well, you just find it flawed and separate yourself from using that term, technically it is simply a descriptor."


Also, if the views I listed above are compatible with feminism, then when someone debates my views, they are not doing it under the "feminist" banner, as I would also be feminist, they are doing it under some other banner.

So what kind of term describes the sort of ideology that condemns rape culture, tries to promote "equal pay" for women, and discusses the "systematic oppression of women", if it's not feminism?

 

[I_Love_You503]

Also, if the views I listed above are compatible with feminism, then when someone debates my views, they are not doing it under the "feminist" banner, as I would also be feminist, they are doing it under some other banner.

I don't think this is necessarily true. I think feminists can disagree with a lot of things and still both be feminists, the way different sects of one religion can disagree on many, many things but still all fall under the same umbrella. A lot of arguments get bogged down in terms when it's not that important. I think the major difference here comes down to what I said before. I think the best way to moderate feminism is to have more moderate people embrace it, whereas you believe feminism has been dragged through so much mud its image is past saving. I honestly believe both views have their merits, and I think we just have different experiences with feminism that have shaped those views.

 

[SexySteph]

I also sort of wanted to post about something that annoys me about feminism's history. I don't think it has done anything to garner respect for traditionally feminine work. I wish that in addition to pushing the message that women could do anything men could do, feminists also pushed that all the things women were already doing were valuable and deserved respect. Thing like raising children, maintaining a home, or even working as caregivers (nurses, teachers etc.)

It's easy to see that these roles don't command a lot of respect. When a man decides to be the stay-at-home parent he's snickered at. When the female CEO of Pepsi decided to step down so she could spend more time with her family people were shocked. How is it shocking to choose your family over a soda company? Why should everyone want to aspire to powerful leadership positions? Feminine jobs usually support roles, not leadership roles. But I don't think there's anything shameful in wanting to be a nurse instead of a doctor, or be a teacher instead of an academic, or stay at home with your kids instead of working in financial services. All of these things are beautiful compassionate decisions that are not afforded the respect they deserve because they don't lead to personal wealth and power, and also because they happen to be women's work.

Having been hospitalized for a few days not long ago, I can say from experience, without a doubt, that if someone is going to jab a needle into your arm, YOU WANT IT TO BE A WOMAN.

...
WTF?
Is there something in our blood that leads us to find a vein more quickly and painlessly? :?

 

[Violet October]

Emotional coercion is not rape. Getting drunk and regretting it is not rape. Being uncomfortable but not saying no is not rape. These are the primary situations in which advising men not to "rape" might be effective - by labeling many things that aren't rape, rape, thus scaring the men out of doing it.

Rape by coercion is most definitely a thing. Being uncomfortable/scared to say no is rape. If you feel saying no would endanger you in any way. But this is what I meant by saying a rape culture doesn't exist. Only a violence culture and a rape subculture.

There is, however, a rape culture that exists in the military, and a "rape by coercion" culture that exists equally with both genders in my opinion.

I respect and agree with a lot of what you have to say and will respond to a lot from multiple of your posts when I have more time (Hopefully later tonight.) I'm fascinated by this entire discussion.



But to everyone else who keeps calling Aella a feminist: Stop it. She keeps repeating that she's not a feminist. And she has every right to that. Just because she holds some values that are feminist values does not mean she is a feminist. No one should force any labels or identities onto anyone else.

 

[Violet October]

Too late to edit, but still not much time.

After my corny about feeling that saying no would endanger you in any way, it's coercion. I forgot to add that that's not the full extent of coercion. Someone pressuring you into saying "yes" in any way is coercion.



In my previous relationship, a guy who I was sexually active with( there was a very specific day where I was emotionally distraught and only wanted comforting words and cuddles. He kept pressuring me into having sex with him, and even though I wasn't in danger, I was INCREDIBLY uncomfortable having sex but felt overpowered and felt like I couldn't say no. I never said the word no, but it was so obvious I didn't want to have sex. We did anyways and afterwards I turned into an emotional wreck. It was rape by coercion. He made me feel like I couldn't say no. I was in an emotionally vulnerable position. He did not actively force himself on me. But it was still rape.

Not any kind of rape I feel could hold up in court, but still rape by coercion. (And like inpreviously stated, this happens with both genders. Not just predominantly with men.) sorry if this is jumbled, I'm on my phone and trying to get ready for work.

 

[helloimc]

I believe in feminism but even as a younger girl, I felt the word was mocking the very intention of equalization. I wish it was humanist or something else.

 

[Violet October]

I believe in feminism but even as a younger girl, I felt the word was mocking the very intention of equalization. I wish it was humanist or something else.

This is why I feel the language feminists use is wrong. If you say, as a feminist, that you want equality you should also be an MRA or believe feminism should also focus on men's specific issues. Feminists should say they want justice. When all special interest groups fight for and achieve justice, we will have equality.

If you are focused solely on equal rights, egalitarianism or humanist is a better word.

I am both a feminist and an egalitarianist.

Language is key, and most people aren't aware just how important it is or just don't know WHAT language is best.

Special interest groups are so necessary. But they shouldn't pretend to be something that they are not.

 

[Nordling]

Also, if the views I listed above are compatible with feminism, then when someone debates my views, they are not doing it under the "feminist" banner, as I would also be feminist, they are doing it under some other banner.

I don't think this is necessarily true. I think feminists can disagree with a lot of things and still both be feminists, the way different sects of one religion can disagree on many, many things but still all fall under the same umbrella. A lot of arguments get bogged down in terms when it's not that important. I think the major difference here comes down to what I said before. I think the best way to moderate feminism is to have more moderate people embrace it, whereas you believe feminism has been dragged through so much mud its image is past saving. I honestly believe both views have their merits, and I think we just have different experiences with feminism that have shaped those views.

Yes, like compare Gloria Steinem with Camille Paglia. Both feminists but far apart on many issues.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Feminism to me, is just the pursuit of equality. You could call it humanism, egalitarianism, whatever, the end goal is still the same thing. The word 'feminism' is a double-edged sword: it speaks more directly to women who have the misfortune of being legitimately downtrodden and discriminated against (due to their culture, religion, etc.) and gives them something to cling to and rally for amidst very real oppression and horrendous treatment, and it (accurately, I think) alludes to their being more to do for women than needs to be done for men, before we can claim to be living in an egalitarian society. On the flipside, there's a stigma attached to the word that leads to both men and women denouncing the movement entirely, many men feel as if the plight doesn't represent their interests, and it creates a divide (exacerbated by the idiot extremists) between those who identify as feminists and those who don't.

As a penis-bearer, I feel like feminism represents male issues just fine. People seem to think that feminism has led to men facing difficulties gaining custody of their children. I don't see how feminism can be to be blame when feminism rails against gender roles being ingrained in society to the point where anything other than a child being raised by its mother while the father goes out to earn money to support them both seems somehow perverse. If feminism had succeeded in everything it set out to achieve, there would be no preconception that children are better off being raised by their mothers and men wouldn't face an uphill battle gaining custody. People seem to think that acknowledging the existence of a rape culture implicates all men as rapists. It doesn't. Society teaches women to avoid being raped, rather than teaching men not to rape. That implicates all men as rapists. Not the movement that strives to do away with that line of thinking. As a man, I'd rather women weren't taught that unless they don't cover up every inch of their bodies when leaving the house, I might see them, lose control of all my mental faculties and through no fault of my own ("I'm just a man, carnal lust controls me") drag them into a bush and rape them.

 

[Tammie_]

I think this is such a lovely forum and thread in that it allows everyone a chance to share and challenge opinions and convictions without personal attacks or foul language being thrown around.

For me, what is missing from the debate is the notion of plurality and diversity. At the heart of all equal rights movements (be it based on dis/ability, race, gender, sexuality, etc) is the desire to create a fair society. While this essentially boils down to equality, this equality needs to encompass the various and diverse factors that make us all individuals. As we know (and often celebrate in this line of work) there is no single masculine nor feminine ideal. Masculinity and femininity exist on an ever changing, fluctuating spectrum that encompasses a plurality of representations at any one time. I think it is either in the lack of acknowledgement or engagement with the plurality of masculinities and femininities that many arguments for and against feminism have failed. Feminism, in its many different waves which have all been culturally contingent (1st, 2nd, 3rd, post, diy, radical, etc) has always had equality and fair society at its heart. Each wave has perhaps championed certain elements of the overarching feminist movement, based on the current state of society and the situatedness of said feminist(s) within that society . This has sometimes meant that other important factors are overlooked, causing discrepancies and fragmentation amongst what might be misconstrued as a hegemonic, definite, and authoritative view on feminism (for instance the criticism of 2nd wave feminism for overlooking the issues on non-white, heterosexual women). Yet the underlying universal factor uniting all waves of feminism and indeed many equal rights campaigns, is the celebration and inclusion of diversity – we are different, but we are equal. Equality doesn’t come from eradicating or ignoring differences, it comes from acknowledging, adjusting to them (if necessary) and celebrating them. Because the feminist movement itself has such a long and fluctuating history, I think this very important factor has been lost on people engaging with both the for and against camps (and arguably particular waves of feminism have/ do purport very specific feminine and masculine ideals).

I consider myself to be a feminist because I believe there is and I am witness to inequality in the world around me. I believe that gender troubles associated with masculinities are just as important to the feminist movement as those associated with femininities. Many blossoming movements in masculinity studies are based on feminism and often started/ continued by feminists.

Don’t get me wrong, I am human and I judge people at times. I think we all do. I would just prefer a society that doesn’t circulate so many powerful, popular narratives that in some way denigrate a whole group of people based on inane details. It’s the circulation and continuation of these narratives that allows me to sometimes feel justified in making rash and unfair judgements. I believe feminism to be a movement that can help stop and destroy the propagation of these devastating social narratives.

 

[zachminor79]

I think we've pretty much all agreed that the extremist sect is not in touch with reality, Joe. But, some of the victim blaming also suggests that men are all rapey. When law enforcement asks what a woman was wearing or how much she had to drink, it's implied that the average man can't control himself near an incapacitated girl in a tube top. Pretty insulting to the male population, isn't it? Equality for both genders is needed. More men should be upset about victim shaming.

… Or maybe law enforcement asks the person what he/she was wearing to make sure any witnesses accounts who saw him/her the day or night of the incident match up? Maybe they ask the person if she/he had any drinks so they know if they need to test her/him to see if the drinks were possibly spiked?

I agree that equality for all genders AND races is definitely needed, but I don't think the law enforcement questions you used as an example is victim shaming. In my opinion, it's views like that which spread misinformation and makes it a fine line between the so called Tumblr feminist and real feminist issues.

 

[RainyDayGuy]

I just skipped to the end to say this.

If you want to have a serious discussion about an issue, don't look to Twitter or Tumblr. If you would like to have an unserious debate full of people saying really stupid things, Twitter and/or Tumblr is definitely the place you want to go.

 

[SexySteph]

Feminism to me, is just the pursuit of equality. You could call it humanism, egalitarianism, whatever, the end goal is still the same thing. The word 'feminism' is a double-edged sword: it speaks more directly to women who have the misfortune of being legitimately downtrodden and discriminated against (due to their culture, religion, etc.) and gives them something to cling to and rally for amidst very real oppression and horrendous treatment, and it (accurately, I think) alludes to their being more to do for women than needs to be done for men, before we can claim to be living in an egalitarian society. On the flipside, there's a stigma attached to the word that leads to both men and women denouncing the movement entirely, many men feel as if the plight doesn't represent their interests, and it creates a divide (exacerbated by the idiot extremists) between those who identify as feminists and those who don't.

As a penis-bearer, I feel like feminism represents male issues just fine. People seem to think that feminism has led to men facing difficulties gaining custody of their children. I don't see how feminism can be to be blame when feminism rails against gender roles being ingrained in society to the point where anything other than a child being raised by its mother while the father goes out to earn money to support them both seems somehow perverse. If feminism had succeeded in everything it set out to achieve, there would be no preconception that children are better off being raised by their mothers and men wouldn't face an uphill battle gaining custody. People seem to think that acknowledging the existence of a rape culture implicates all men as rapists. It doesn't. Society teaches women to avoid being raped, rather than teaching men not to rape. That implicates all men as rapists. Not the movement that strives to do away with that line of thinking. As a man, I'd rather women weren't taught that unless they don't cover up every inch of their bodies when leaving the house, I might see them, lose control of all my mental faculties and through no fault of my own ("I'm just a man, carnal lust controls me") drag them into a bush and rape them.

:text-yeahthat: :text-goodpost:

You said everything perfectly. Specifically explaining the WHY of the name of the movement. All the applause for you.

 

[Leon_Omega]

Language is key, and most people aren't aware just how important it is or just don't know WHAT language is best.

I feel that this cannot be emphasized enough. It occurs to me that a lot of the discussions about feminism that I've read and taken part in spent a substantial amount of time and effort arguing about semantics. Which is one of the reasons why I've begun dialing back on using labels to show what I identify with. See, I used to identify as a "Nice guy" because I try to be friendly to anyone who doesn't give me a reason not to, simply because I like bringing a smile to other people's faces, it's one of the few things I can do to make the world a slightly nicer place. However, in recent years that term has gotten some very negative connotations attached to it (as well as its own uniform, for some weird reason) so I try to avoid using it. Feminism is in a similar boat in that it can have a vastly different meaning depending on who uses it. But just because I don't feel the need to put a sticker with "Feminist" on my forehead, doesn't mean I stopped believing that it is a patently idiotic notion to unfairly treat anyone based on any factor they have no control over, be it gender identity (original or current), skin color, hair color, birthplace, birthdate, etc.

In short: why can't people just discuss the issues themselves without wearing themselves out first by bickering over what to call them?

And it's not the labels themselves that are the problem, it's the fact that they only work when everybody knows exactly what they mean. Feminism unfortunately has been perverted by people on both sides of the fence because of various socio-political agendas throughout the years, so it's impossible to determine exactly what definition of feminism someone refers to without asking them, effectively negating the purpose of labeling in the first place.

Feminism to me, is just the pursuit of equality. You could call it humanism, egalitarianism, whatever, the end goal is still the same thing. The word 'feminism' is a double-edged sword: it speaks more directly to women who have the misfortune of being legitimately downtrodden and discriminated against (due to their culture, religion, etc.) and gives them something to cling to and rally for amidst very real oppression and horrendous treatment, and it (accurately, I think) alludes to their being more to do for women than needs to be done for men, before we can claim to be living in an egalitarian society. On the flipside, there's a stigma attached to the word that leads to both men and women denouncing the movement entirely, many men feel as if the plight doesn't represent their interests, and it creates a divide (exacerbated by the idiot extremists) between those who identify as feminists and those who don't.

As a penis-bearer, I feel like feminism represents male issues just fine. People seem to think that feminism has led to men facing difficulties gaining custody of their children. I don't see how feminism can be to be blame when feminism rails against gender roles being ingrained in society to the point where anything other than a child being raised by its mother while the father goes out to earn money to support them both seems somehow perverse. If feminism had succeeded in everything it set out to achieve, there would be no preconception that children are better off being raised by their mothers and men wouldn't face an uphill battle gaining custody. People seem to think that acknowledging the existence of a rape culture implicates all men as rapists. It doesn't. Society teaches women to avoid being raped, rather than teaching men not to rape. That implicates all men as rapists. Not the movement that strives to do away with that line of thinking. As a man, I'd rather women weren't taught that unless they don't cover up every inch of their bodies when leaving the house, I might see them, lose control of all my mental faculties and through no fault of my own ("I'm just a man, carnal lust controls me") drag them into a bush and rape them.

Seconded! A large part of the problem here lies in the stereotyping done because of the gender roles that have permeated our society for so long without anyone feeling the need to question them.



---TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE RANT INCOMING---

I feel rape culture has been hit very hard with that labeling problem: no one seems to know exactly what the term means or should mean, and that leads to discussions about the issue derailing, a LOT. Rape culture isn't about insinuating that all men are rapists or about confirming that no all of us are. It's about taking a good long hard critical look at the way in which our society deals with rape and just how fucked up that is. A friend of mine recently got released from jail because she had the gall to defend herself against a would-be rapist in her own home, and he wasn't deterred by the fact that she had a knife until it drew blood. She was told in court that the guy had "a right to have sex with her." Another, well she got told by a help line after the fact that, because she had consented to one thing early on, the ENTIRETY of the rape she had gone through was effectively her fault. Yes, that little nugget came from someone whose job it is to help people who have gone through psychological trauma. Why the fuck is this the only crime where our justice system seems to actively try to keep the perpetrators out of jail? And why is it considered almost normal to threaten people you don't like (and let's be honest here, this one is heavily skewed towards women) with rape? I don't really care about the statistics here, because whether they are inflated or not, the fact remains that this still happens too often, and when it does, we as a society make it worse. There is a growing subculture on the internet that likes to make fun of trigger warnings, because they think those are just a result of people being overly sensitive, some of the signs I saw on that Tumblr also alluded to this. Well, I'd think those people never saw their significant other turned into a gibbering wreck just because one drunk asshole said he always got hard from a woman in blue lingerie (he could see a bra strap). It is the reason why I hate the very concept of rape as much as I do. It is the one experience I have had that still gives me nightmares nearly a decade after the fact.

Spoiler

She had been raped various times between the ages of 8 and 14, they never caught the guy, no one would believe her. Apparently blue was a thing for him, as she always seemed to dislike it when associated with men, even though she had always liked the color herself. This particular incident happened towards the end of what should have been one of the better nights of our relationship. I still remember the look in her eyes, and I still regret ever trying to fathom what could have happened to her that would make her look so utterly lost and terrified.

 

[Joeternal]

...
WTF?
Is there something in our blood that leads us to find a vein more quickly and painlessly? :?

I had both male and female nurses who worked on me at one time or another. The women consistently were more gentle, cautious and precise, and caused less pain. Specifically, when inserting an IV. Make of it what you want, it's reality.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Feminism to me, is just the pursuit of equality. You could call it humanism, egalitarianism, whatever, the end goal is still the same thing. The word 'feminism' is a double-edged sword: it speaks more directly to women who have the misfortune of being legitimately downtrodden and discriminated against (due to their culture, religion, etc.) and gives them something to cling to and rally for amidst very real oppression and horrendous treatment, and it (accurately, I think) alludes to their being more to do for women than needs to be done for men, before we can claim to be living in an egalitarian society. On the flipside, there's a stigma attached to the word that leads to both men and women denouncing the movement entirely, many men feel as if the plight doesn't represent their interests, and it creates a divide (exacerbated by the idiot extremists) between those who identify as feminists and those who don't.

As a penis-bearer, I feel like feminism represents male issues just fine. People seem to think that feminism has led to men facing difficulties gaining custody of their children. I don't see how feminism can be to be blame when feminism rails against gender roles being ingrained in society to the point where anything other than a child being raised by its mother while the father goes out to earn money to support them both seems somehow perverse. If feminism had succeeded in everything it set out to achieve, there would be no preconception that children are better off being raised by their mothers and men wouldn't face an uphill battle gaining custody. People seem to think that acknowledging the existence of a rape culture implicates all men as rapists. It doesn't. Society teaches women to avoid being raped, rather than teaching men not to rape. That implicates all men as rapists. Not the movement that strives to do away with that line of thinking. As a man, I'd rather women weren't taught that unless they don't cover up every inch of their bodies when leaving the house, I might see them, lose control of all my mental faculties and through no fault of my own ("I'm just a man, carnal lust controls me") drag them into a bush and rape them.

:text-yeahthat: :text-goodpost:

You said everything perfectly. Specifically explaining the WHY of the name of the movement. All the applause for you.

:dance:

 

[NataliaGrey]

...
WTF?
Is there something in our blood that leads us to find a vein more quickly and painlessly? :?

I had both male and female nurses who worked on me at one time or another. The women consistently were more gentle, cautious and precise, and caused less pain. Specifically, when inserting an IV. Make of it what you want, it's reality.

That's your reality. Everyone has different experiences. Truthfully, based on your responses in this thread, I would say your views might just be a bit skewed to perceive women as more gentle. My worst experiences with needles have been from female nurses. That doesn't mean I think female nurses suck - just the ones I had.

One way to test this would be to have patients blindfolded while nurses stick them, so they can't see the gender, then rate their experience. It would need to be a pretty big study with a lot of subjects, too.

 

[Leon_Omega]

...
WTF?
Is there something in our blood that leads us to find a vein more quickly and painlessly? :?

I had both male and female nurses who worked on me at one time or another. The women consistently were more gentle, cautious and precise, and caused less pain. Specifically, when inserting an IV. Make of it what you want, it's reality.

That's your reality. Everyone has different experiences. Truthfully, based on your responses in this thread, I would say your views might just be a bit skewed to perceive women as more gentle. My worst experiences with needles have been from female nurses. That doesn't mean I think female nurses suck - just the ones I had.

One way to test this would be to have patients blindfolded while nurses stick them, so they can't see the gender, then rate their experience. It would need to be a pretty big study with a lot of subjects, too.

While I don't read much into it, I'd have to say that I had several trips to the dentist where an intern got to administer the sedative and all of those were completely painless.

My best guess was that I've just been very lucky or my dentist is good at picking interns on their skills with the needle.

 

[Joeternal]

...
WTF?
Is there something in our blood that leads us to find a vein more quickly and painlessly? :?

I had both male and female nurses who worked on me at one time or another. The women consistently were more gentle, cautious and precise, and caused less pain. Specifically, when inserting an IV. Make of it what you want, it's reality.

That's your reality. Everyone has different experiences. Truthfully, based on your responses in this thread, I would say your views might just be a bit skewed to perceive women as more gentle. My worst experiences with needles have been from female nurses. That doesn't mean I think female nurses suck - just the ones I had.

One way to test this would be to have patients blindfolded while nurses stick them, so they can't see the gender, then rate their experience. It would need to be a pretty big study with a lot of subjects, too.

I'm not interested in having an argument about this. #WomenAgainstFeminism references pretty much every subject that's been raised in this thread, if you read through that Tumblr thoroughly. They can speak for themselves.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

...
WTF?
Is there something in our blood that leads us to find a vein more quickly and painlessly? :?

I had both male and female nurses who worked on me at one time or another. The women consistently were more gentle, cautious and precise, and caused less pain. Specifically, when inserting an IV. Make of it what you want, it's reality.

That's your reality. Everyone has different experiences. Truthfully, based on your responses in this thread, I would say your views might just be a bit skewed to perceive women as more gentle. My worst experiences with needles have been from female nurses. That doesn't mean I think female nurses suck - just the ones I had.

One way to test this would be to have patients blindfolded while nurses stick them, so they can't see the gender, then rate their experience. It would need to be a pretty big study with a lot of subjects, too.

While I don't read much into it, I'd have to say that I had several trips to the dentist where an intern got to administer the sedative and all of those were completely painless.

My best guess was that I've just been very lucky or my dentist is good at picking interns on their skills with the needle.

I've never had a dentist shot hurt, either. It may have to do with the size of the needle, what's in it, and the place of injection, more than the sex of the intern. :twocents-02cents:

 

[PlayboyMegan]

And this is why I usually go to specific issues I tend to disagree with feminists on in order to clarify the meat of what I believe, instead of giving it a term. I believe rape culture is a myth. I believe the pay gap is not a result of systematic oppression. I believe that women are not systematically oppressed (in western culture). I believe rape statistics are inflated. I believe that the society-based struggles men face are just as bad as what women face (and thus should have an EQUAL amount of discussion, something not seen in feminism). I believe if a man won't date you because you're 5 pounds too heavy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I am also a victim of sexual assault, but I don't typically talk about it because I don't see what point that has in discussions about statistics and risk. I believe the risk is over inflated (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... tions.html). I believe that there is nothing wrong in advising a woman to take the safer road or to watch her drink at parties. I have seen no evidence to suggest that clothing choice affects your risk level, so I disagree with saying "cover up."
The majority of rapes are committed by people you already know (thus reducing risk level in crowded social events like a 200+ person party).

Rape does happen. So does assault, murder, domestic violence, harassment, and many other things, both more and less traumatic, and both happen to both genders. There are many things we should be doing to reduce this - higher education, more loving parents, encouraging women to report rapes, encouraging personal security, defense, and situational awareness[/b]. But going "men don't rape!" is ridiculous.

Emotional coercion is not rape. Getting drunk and regretting it is not rape. Being uncomfortable but not saying no is not rape. These are the primary situations in which advising men not to "rape" might be effective - by labeling many things that aren't rape, rape, thus scaring the men out of doing it.

Why do you think rape statistics are inflated? Literally I have never met a woman that wasn't sexually harassed in some form. I would think that there are many women who are raped and take it to their grave, making the statistics actually lower than they truly are.
I've never heard about the weight thing from feminist. Do most feminist feel that men should date women they're not physically attracted to? I feel that is completely irrelevant to equal rights.
The site you gave is saying that less men are rapists because many rapists have multiple victims. Is that supposed to make me feel better? There's still the same amount of victims, even if there are less rapists.
Of course you should take caution because rape will never cease to exist. But by teaching women techniques on how to be safer, you are just (MAYBE) minimizing the problem. By teaching rapists not to rape, you are demolishing the problem all together AND putting all of the blame on the predators without blaming the victims for not taking precautions.
Yes, when we are talking solely rape, your odds of getting rapes by a stranger is less. But sexual harassment in general? I can't tell you how many times I've had my ass grabbed in a nightclub. It's not okay.
Violet already hit the nail on the head about coercion, so nothing more needs to be said about that.
Drinking is a very gray area, but according to the law, if you're too drunk to consent, it IS rape.
Whether it's legal or not, we should be advising men not to fuck drunken women or coerce them into sex. Regardless of the proper label and laws, it's not right. They should be scared into not doing it. Correction, they shouldn't have to have fear of the law not to be a shitty person.

 

[Leon_Omega]

I've never had a dentist shot hurt, either. It may have to do with the size of the needle, what's in it, and the place of injection, more than the sex of the intern. :twocents-02cents:

Oh I know, and to be fair I only mentioned it because it was an amusing coincidence given the context of this thread that every time I've been pricked with a needle it has been by a woman (so my reference pool is completely one-sided in this regard) and a universally positive experience.

Of course you should take caution because rape will never cease to exist. But by teaching women techniques on how to be safer, you are just (MAYBE) minimizing the problem. By teaching rapists not to rape, you are demolishing the problem all together AND putting all of the blame on the predators without blaming the victims for not taking precautions.

I don't really get why this is treated as a binary choice in these discussions. Wouldn't it be better to do both? Because if teaching people that certain actions are socially unacceptable (up to and including adding varying levels of punishment that come with being caught) were 100% foolproof, we'd have gotten rid of crime a long time ago. While I feel that it is not nearly as important to stopping rape as going after the assholes themselves, it should never be considered a bad thing to teach people how to avoid potentially dangerous situations (and not, as an unfortunate implication of an earlier post in this thread, merely by "being white, hanging around mainly with white people and not drinking too much") because the problem won't fully go away simply by telling guys "don't rape, yo!" because there will always be people who don't heed those messages.

I'm also wondering what would be the best way to teach young men about what constitutes rape (because I feel there is a LOT of misunderstanding regarding forcing themselves onto their significant others somehow not "counting" as actual rape) and, more importantly, the effects of it. Ideally, that would be included in the sex ed curriculum, but I could see a lot of parents being upset at the very least to have an exceptionally disturbing violent crime being part of that.

 

[SexySteph]

f
I don't really get why this is treated as a binary choice in these discussions. Wouldn't it be better to do both? Because if teaching people that certain actions are socially unacceptable (up to and including adding varying levels of punishment that come with being caught) were 100% foolproof, we'd have gotten rid of crime a long time ago. While I feel that it is not nearly as important to stopping rape as going after the assholes themselves, it should never be considered a bad thing to teach people how to avoid potentially dangerous situations (and not, as an unfortunate implication of an earlier post in this thread, merely by "being white, hanging around mainly with white people and not drinking too much") because the problem won't fully go away simply by telling guys "don't rape, yo!" because there will always be people who don't heed those messages.

Part of the issue with this is it puts it in our (the women's) hands. I SHOULD be able to wear whatever I want wherever I want, I SHOULD be able to get entirely inebriated at a party with males and females (given that I don't I tend to drive and I'm not putti fb anyone else in danger). I SHOULD be able to hang out with an all male group of friends. "Avoiding rape" is very different than "avoiding your house being broken into." I can't even comfortably sunbathe in a bikini in my own back yard without fear that if someone rapes me I fall blamed. On the other hand my brother is entirely comfortable doing the exact same thing. It's not like saying "lock your doors so no one breaks in" it's like saying "don't leave your house without an escort, but only if you're female". We don't have to tell our men to be afraid like this, it's a crime that only women are taught to fear. And that's patently messed up.

 

[mutantdonut]

I don't really have much to add on this subject but i do appreciate reading everyone's thoughtful input. The video below is very relevant to Megan's point: which depict women carrying a hidden camera around, recording the number of times harassed on the street.

A common quote i hear from my fellow male counterparts is "women have it made easy." Those who carry that notion should watch the video below as what it's like to be in a woman's shoes. And THAT is just the tip of the ice berg of what she faces. There's a vast difference between a woman walking alone at night versus a man in the same situation.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

I've never had a dentist shot hurt, either. It may have to do with the size of the needle, what's in it, and the place of injection, more than the sex of the intern. :twocents-02cents:

Oh I know, and to be fair I only mentioned it because it was an amusing coincidence given the context of this thread that every time I've been pricked with a needle it has been by a woman (so my reference pool is completely one-sided in this regard) and a universally positive experience.

Of course you should take caution because rape will never cease to exist. But by teaching women techniques on how to be safer, you are just (MAYBE) minimizing the problem. By teaching rapists not to rape, you are demolishing the problem all together AND putting all of the blame on the predators without blaming the victims for not taking precautions.

I'm also wondering what would be the best way to teach young men about what constitutes rape (because I feel there is a LOT of misunderstanding regarding forcing themselves onto their significant others somehow not "counting" as actual rape) and, more importantly, the effects of it. Ideally, that would be included in the sex ed curriculum, but I could see a lot of parents being upset at the very least to have an exceptionally disturbing violent crime being part of that.

Besides being intoxicated, I don't see a lot of gray area when it comes to rape. Men should be taught to ask a woman if she wants to have sex before hand. Asking more than once when they clearly said "no" is wrong. "No" means no. "Yes" means yes. And if at any time during sex she changes her mind, you pull out.
Maybe it is a gray area, I'd have to hear some examples, but it seems pretty black and white to me.

 

[Leon_Omega]

f
I don't really get why this is treated as a binary choice in these discussions. Wouldn't it be better to do both? Because if teaching people that certain actions are socially unacceptable (up to and including adding varying levels of punishment that come with being caught) were 100% foolproof, we'd have gotten rid of crime a long time ago. While I feel that it is not nearly as important to stopping rape as going after the assholes themselves, it should never be considered a bad thing to teach people how to avoid potentially dangerous situations (and not, as an unfortunate implication of an earlier post in this thread, merely by "being white, hanging around mainly with white people and not drinking too much") because the problem won't fully go away simply by telling guys "don't rape, yo!" because there will always be people who don't heed those messages.

Part of the issue with this is it puts it in our (the women's) hands. I SHOULD be able to wear whatever I want wherever I want, I SHOULD be able to get entirely inebriated at a party with males and females (given that I don't I tend to drive and I'm not putti fb anyone else in danger). I SHOULD be able to hang out with an all male group of friends. "Avoiding rape" is very different than "avoiding your house being broken into." I can't even comfortably sunbathe in a bikini in my own back yard without fear that if someone rapes me I fall blamed. On the other hand my brother is entirely comfortable doing the exact same thing. It's not like saying "lock your doors so no one breaks in" it's like saying "don't leave your house without an escort, but only if you're female". We don't have to tell our men to be afraid like this, it's a crime that only women are taught to fear. And that's patently messed up.

I fully understand that, I would love to wake up to a world where any and all of my friends can go out and have fun without having to watch their backs for fear of being harrassed or worse. However, we're not there yet by a long shot. What I was trying to say is that we shouldn't try to ignore personal safety methods just because we'd have started to teach men that rape should not happen.

I just want to see that no rape happens, ever. And while step one is going after the root of the problem by going for the perpetrators, I don;t see the harm in givng the potential victims a defense against the ones that get through. The focus should not be on the victim, and it wouldn't be, but I just don;t see the harm in putting another safeguard up.

I see it as wearing a seatbelt in my car. I shouldn't have to in an ideal situation where everyone around me knows and understands the rules of the road and is alert enough to drive. I wear it because of the possible consequences of my situation being less than ideal.

 

[Leon_Omega]

Besides being intoxicated, I don't see a lot of gray area when it comes to rape. Men should be taught to ask a woman if she wants to have sex before hand. Asking more than once when they clearly said "no" is wrong. "No" means no. "Yes" means yes. And if at any time during sex she changes her mind, you pull out.
Maybe it is a gray area, I'd have to hear some examples, but it seems pretty black and white to me.

I see a lot of people saying that they feel that someone cannot rape their spouse or that someone forcing themselves on their significant other somehow doesn't count as rape. Which is obviously not true since I'm pretty sure entering in a relationship doesn't stop one's free will from functioning. I was referring to that, not implying that there is any grey area regarding rape.

There shouldn't be, it has a very clear definition.

 

[SexySteph]

I see it as wearing a seatbelt in my car. I shouldn't have to in an ideal situation where everyone around me knows and understands the rules of the road and is alert enough to drive. I wear it because of the possible consequences of my situation being less than ideal.

I guess if men were told to wear the metaphorical seatbelt too, I'd take less of an issue with it, if that makes sense?

 

[PunkInDrublic]

I can't even comfortably sunbathe in a bikini in my own back yard without fear that if someone rapes me I fall blamed.

I don't know where you live but is this common? The women around here sunbathe/walk around the neighborhood in bikinis during the summer with zero fear of anything. I don't think any would feel they are to blame because they were in bikinis.