#WomenAgainstFeminism

[mynameisbob84]

Woman against (western) feminism here.

People say a lot that if you're against feminism, you don't really know what feminism is, and I find that to be insulting.

Wikipedia defines feminism as a movement of 'equal rights for women,' which is pretty damn vague. Feminism has encompassed many years, many different movements, and many people, and what feminism means to society keeps changing. We have this ideal of how things 'should be,' and frequently people attach the label of 'feminism' to it - regardless of what feminism actually means to society.

I don't identify as a feminist because, based on everything I have seen from feminists and the feminist movement, I disagree with the majority of it. It is not because I don't understand it, it is because it actually is possible to have a differing opinion without being an idiot. To insinuate that I don't get it is demeaning to my intelligence.

I want equal legal rights for everybody. In that sense of feminism, I am a feminist, but I think to go strictly by that definition is really a thing of the past.

I think rape culture is overhyped, if not a myth entirely. I think women make less money than men because they aren't as driven, not because of discrimination. I am not a feminist by today's terms in the slightest.

I find a large majority of feminism to be hypocritical (for example, in this thread someone posted a photo of a woman holding a sign talking about an isolated instance indicating why she didn't need feminism, and was critiqued for relying on a single instance, whereas this happens constantly with the "i need feminism" signs, and I have never once seen a feminist critiquing the same exact flaw there). I find feminists to be more concerned about women than men, particularly in the sense of discrimination. When a man has a societal issue, he is not taken as seriously as a woman, because his gender has had a systematic "privilege", throughout history (e.g., a man feeling a pressure from society to provide for his family is mentioned far far less frequently than a woman feeling pressure from society to be a meek housewife, yet the former is significantly more frequent). I find this to be a highly irrational, yet prevalent mindset within the feminist community. If feminists were truly interested in equality, then any issue of either gender would be equally problematic, and there would be no more discussion of one gender than the other. As it is, feminists claim to be truly interested in equality, but the current state of feminist culture does not reflect that.

I do not believe women face more problems than men. I believe they face different ones.

I'm glad you pointed out that it's specifically Western feminism you're against. I think there's no debating that as long as women are being murdered because they want to be educated, or stoned to death because they had the misfortune of being raped and thus "brought shame on their family", there's a need for feminism, at least in the places of the world where those things are still happening.

As far as the West goes, I'd argue that as long as things like the wage gap, restrictive access to contraception, biased representation in media, casual everyday sexism and misogyny, and things like a pervasive rape culture exist (I think there's more than enough evidence to suggest the latter is not a myth), there's a need for feminism. :twocents-02cents:

 

[Aella]

I would also like to add something about the idea of victimization.

One of the photos was a woman holding a sign saying she didn't need feminism because she wasn't a victim.

One of the responses to this photo stated that feminism is not about victimization, it is about empowerment.

We have to figure out what we mean by "victim" and "empowerment," here. I would think that 'victim' means someone who is helpless, whether by choice or not; to be a victim is to be swayed by the world, to have the world happen to you.

Traditional ideas of victims are children (not in control), those falsely imprisoned (not in control), those who oppose militantly intolerant regimes (not in control).

The victim 'mentality' is a little different, though, and all of us have it to some extent. The victim mentality happens when we think we are not in control, when we are - when we place responsibility of a negative event onto "another person" instead of ourselves. A victim mentality is always damaging. Victim mentality happens when we lose our job and sit moping around thinking we'll never succeed in life, everyone is just gonna fire us (been there), or when we do poorly in school and think why should we bother anyway, the tests are too hard (been there), or when someone hurts you terribly and you think you're just going to be angry and resentful from now on and it's their fault (been there).

Victim mentality can be present even in action, however. You can feel active about your situation and still be a victim, because you can feel active about your situation and still be placing the responsibility on someone else (people will fire us, it's their fault, tests are too hard, it's the school's fault, i'm angry because of a past event, it's my family's fault). You can demand someone not fire you - this is an action you want someone ELSE to take instead of changing YOURSELF (improving at your job). You can demand the school give you easier or different testing. You can demand revenge on those who hurt you in order to ease your own mind.

Victim mentality is to change others.

Empowerment, however, is realizing that the only control you have is over yourself, and you can change that. Empowerment is getting better at your job, at studying harder, at forgiving your family. It is taking the responsibility onto your own shoulders, which is far more difficult and mature than the victim mentality could ever be. It is knowing your own flaws, facing them, embracing them, and moving past them.

And this is where we get to feminism.

I see feminism as having a victim mentality in most (not all) areas due to the tendency to demand that others change, instead of changing yourself.

Feminism says "women make less than men, what are you going to do about it, male employers?" instead of "women work less than men and have less ambition - what can we do to change that?"

Feminism says "women face damaging body image issues in the media for men's pleasure. What are you going to do about it, media producers?" instead of "maybe we're too media-driven, maybe we need to reevaluate what is important to us and what type of media we consume."

Feminism says "women don't feel safe walking down the street because of male harassment and fear of rape, what are you going to do about it, men? Don't rape!" instead of "maybe we should look at statistics to judge our actual risk factors instead of allowing our emotions to drive us into viewing all men as rapists" or "maybe I should increase my own personal security so I am no longer living in fear."

This is why many women say that feminism makes them feel victimized instead of empowered. You may disagree with this, and that is perfectly fine, but simply because someone says feminism makes them feel victimized does not mean that person does not truly understand feminism.

 

[Deleted member 8603]

I have a little happy pack for anti-feminists. It includes an apron, a cookbook, and a guide to shutting up when men are talking.



:lol:

(I am a by-definition feminist. I believe it means no more than that all genders are equal. No offense meant by the joke!)

 

[JickyJuly]

Woman against (western) feminism here.

People say a lot that if you're against feminism, you don't really know what feminism is, and I find that to be insulting.

Wikipedia defines feminism as a movement of 'equal rights for women,' which is pretty damn vague. Feminism has encompassed many years, many different movements, and many people, and what feminism means to society keeps changing. We have this ideal of how things 'should be,' and frequently people attach the label of 'feminism' to it - regardless of what feminism actually means to society.

I don't identify as a feminist because, based on everything I have seen from feminists and the feminist movement, I disagree with the majority of it. It is not because I don't understand it, it is because it actually is possible to have a differing opinion without being an idiot. To insinuate that I don't get it is demeaning to my intelligence.

I want equal legal rights for everybody. In that sense of feminism, I am a feminist, but I think to go strictly by that definition is really a thing of the past.

I think rape culture is overhyped, if not a myth entirely. I think women make less money than men because they aren't as driven, not because of discrimination. I am not a feminist by today's terms in the slightest.

I find a large majority of feminism to be hypocritical (for example, in this thread someone posted a photo of a woman holding a sign talking about an isolated instance indicating why she didn't need feminism, and was critiqued for relying on a single instance, whereas this happens constantly with the "i need feminism" signs, and I have never once seen a feminist critiquing the same exact flaw there). I find feminists to be more concerned about women than men, particularly in the sense of discrimination. When a man has a societal issue, he is not taken as seriously as a woman, because his gender has had a systematic "privilege", throughout history (e.g., a man feeling a pressure from society to provide for his family is mentioned far far less frequently than a woman feeling pressure from society to be a meek housewife, yet the former is significantly more frequent). I find this to be a highly irrational, yet prevalent mindset within the feminist community. If feminists were truly interested in equality, then any issue of either gender would be equally problematic, and there would be no more discussion of one gender than the other. As it is, feminists claim to be truly interested in equality, but the current state of feminist culture does not reflect that.

I do not believe women face more problems than men. I believe they face different ones.

If you want equal legal rights for everyone, you are a feminist. You're just a sane feminist without your own tweaked agenda. If there were more of you and less extremists, women's rights would be doing better. But, extremists scare off a lot of women and try to leave out men completely. You are right that women lack drive, but gender inequality is a huge part of that. Girls are taught with subtlety not to shoot as high as boys. For instance, I posted a photo on Facebook of my almost 2 year old daughter playing with medical implements while I was in labor at the hospital. Several comments were left about how cute it was that she "wanted to be a nurse" or "could be a nurse when she grows up". I'm not trying to make a dig at nurses, but if my kid was a boy, those comments would have called him "doctor". Doctor is definitely a bigger dream and a bigger paycheck. The people on my Facebook are family and close friends. They love my daughter, and they still minimized her because of her gender without even realizing it. The idea of inequality is SO ingrained it happens without thought.

 

[Aella]

If you want equal legal rights for everyone, you are a feminist. You're just a sane feminist without your own tweaked agenda. If there were more of you and less extremists, women's rights would be doing better. But, extremists scare off a lot of women and try to leave out men completely. You are right that women lack drive, but gender inequality is a huge part of that. Girls are taught with subtlety not to shoot as high as boys. For instance, I posted a photo on Facebook of my almost 2 year old daughter playing with medical implements while I was in labor at the hospital. Several comments were left about how cute it was that she "wanted to be a nurse" or "could be a nurse when she grows up". I'm not trying to make a dig at nurses, but if my kid was a boy, those comments would have called him "doctor". Doctor is definitely a bigger dream and a bigger paycheck. The people on my Facebook are family and close friends. They love my daughter, and they still minimized her because of her gender without even realizing it. The idea of inequality is SO ingrained it happens without thought.

No, I am not a feminist. It is kind of demeaning to insist that I am a feminist despite my statement I not. To blame women's lack of drive on other people subconsciously minimizing gender is propagating a victim mentality, and I do not agree with it.

I have a little happy pack for anti-feminists. It includes an apron, a cookbook, and a guide to shutting up when men are talking.



:lol:

(I am a by-definition feminist. I believe it means no more than that all genders are equal. No offense meant by the joke!)

Sounds exactly like a joke I would have heard in the extremely anti-woman culture in which I was raised.

 

[Deleted member 8603]

An antifeminist literally is someone who is against women having equal rights.

So basically I'm saying anyone who thinks all women should be in the kitchen minding their cooking should go do that instead of walking around being a jerk. (for males or females)


I was being lighthearted?

 

[Camgirl]

I have a little happy pack for anti-feminists. It includes an apron, a cookbook, and a guide to shutting up when men are talking.



:lol:

(I am a by-definition feminist. I believe it means no more than that all genders are equal. No offense meant by the joke!)

I know this is a joke, but isn't this one of the reasons why some are rejecting modern feminism? If a woman makes a choice that she wants an apron, cookbook, and to be a housewife who caters to her husband, why should she be judged or ridiculed?

I am genuinely asking...not trying to rile anyone up.

 

[JickyJuly]

If you want equal legal rights for everyone, you are a feminist. You're just a sane feminist without your own tweaked agenda. If there were more of you and less extremists, women's rights would be doing better. But, extremists scare off a lot of women and try to leave out men completely. You are right that women lack drive, but gender inequality is a huge part of that. Girls are taught with subtlety not to shoot as high as boys. For instance, I posted a photo on Facebook of my almost 2 year old daughter playing with medical implements while I was in labor at the hospital. Several comments were left about how cute it was that she "wanted to be a nurse" or "could be a nurse when she grows up". I'm not trying to make a dig at nurses, but if my kid was a boy, those comments would have called him "doctor". Doctor is definitely a bigger dream and a bigger paycheck. The people on my Facebook are family and close friends. They love my daughter, and they still minimized her because of her gender without even realizing it. The idea of inequality is SO ingrained it happens without thought.

No, I am not a feminist. It is kind of demeaning to insist that I am a feminist despite my statement I not. To blame women's lack of drive on other people subconsciously minimizing gender is propagating a victim mentality, and I do not agree with it.

I have a little happy pack for anti-feminists. It includes an apron, a cookbook, and a guide to shutting up when men are talking.



:lol:

(I am a by-definition feminist. I believe it means no more than that all genders are equal. No offense meant by the joke!)

Sounds exactly like a joke I would have heard in the extremely anti-woman culture in which I was raised.

Maybe it would have been more polite to say that you fit the definition of a feminist than to say you are something you don't want to be. I apologize. I don't agree that my take on women and career goals is victim mentality though. Education and employment are systems created by and for men. Less than 100 years ago, parents didn't give a shit whether their daughters bothered to go to high school. Women were expected to marry, make babies and live within their husband's means. Women are newer and less accepted in both school and the workforce. Recognizing that doesn't mean accepting it. To me, if you don't accept less for yourself or the women you love based on gender, that's feminism and the opposite of being a victim.

 

[Deleted member 8603]

I have a little happy pack for anti-feminists. It includes an apron, a cookbook, and a guide to shutting up when men are talking.



:lol:

(I am a by-definition feminist. I believe it means no more than that all genders are equal. No offense meant by the joke!)

I know this is a joke, but isn't this one of the reasons why some are rejecting modern feminism? If a woman makes a choice that she wants an apron, cookbook, and to be a housewife who caters to her husband, why should she be judged or ridiculed?

I am genuinely asking...not trying to rile anyone up.

That's why I put the no offense marker at the bottom.
This isn't meant to say that if someone has a little problem with feminism, they should go do these things.
It also doesn't mean that if a woman CHOOSES those things, she's bad.

Every single person deserves the right to choose their own life.

I just think it's funny when someone makes a back to the kitchen joke and I hand them an apron to go do it themselves


I also really like the way you asked that as a verification and not an assumption that I'm like that

 

[JoleneBrody]

I love this forum man. I love it.

This has been the most sane discussion about feminism I've seen on the internet in a long time.

 

[gliderguider]

I love this forum man. I love it.

This has been the most sane discussion about feminism I've seen on the internet in a long time.

Possibly because successful cammodels are as a group among the most sensible and sane people around. I feel privileged to count some of you as friends.

 

[VeronicaChaos]

Discussions like this make me wonder how many disagreements are created due to differing opinions on a word's definition. I try my hardest to always look at context, but it's kind of crazy how much more advanced as a species we would be if we could just realize we agree with each other despite our different language, or vice versa.

I'm hoping now is the time we start to figure out these problems. I believe humans are capable of working far beyond them, and this is just some petty shit we have to put up with while we do so.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

Feminism says "women don't feel safe walking down the street because of male harassment and fear of rape, what are you going to do about it, men? Don't rape!" instead of "maybe we should look at statistics to judge our actual risk factors instead of allowing our emotions to drive us into viewing all men as rapists" or "maybe I should increase my own personal security so I am no longer living in fear."

This is why many women say that feminism makes them feel victimized instead of empowered. You may disagree with this, and that is perfectly fine, but simply because someone says feminism makes them feel victimized does not mean that person does not truly understand feminism.

WARNING, RAPE TALK NOT IN SPOILER!


I "thanked" your post because I agreed with some of your points.
I did not agree with this one I particular.
1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).
Reading statistics on rape does not make me feel safer. It shows me just how frequently it occurs. So our "actual risk factor" is HIGH!
Of course not all men are rapist, but going out to a club full of 200+ men, it is almost a fact there will be at least one rapist there. That's scary.
Do I live my life in fear? No. Am I cautious? Most of the time. But fear is one of those things that can (in moderation) be a good thing. And it's really not something you have a lot of control over. You only have so much control over your feelings but you have complete control over your actions (unless you have turrets or something.)
The fact that you mentioned increasing your own personal security, disgusts me. I shouldn't have to wear turtle necks (not that it even helps since rapes happen regardless of what you wear.) I shouldn't have to carry pepper spray on me at all times. Although rape will never cease to exist and it is a good idea to have security, I shouldn't NEED it!
It is up to the rapists to not rape! By even mentioning personal security you are insinuating it is the victims/survivor/(whatever you want to fucking call them) fault.
I thankfully have never been raped but your post was insulting to all women, regardless.

 

[Joeternal]

Feminism says "women don't feel safe walking down the street because of male harassment and fear of rape, what are you going to do about it, men? Don't rape!" instead of "maybe we should look at statistics to judge our actual risk factors instead of allowing our emotions to drive us into viewing all men as rapists" or "maybe I should increase my own personal security so I am no longer living in fear."

This is why many women say that feminism makes them feel victimized instead of empowered. You may disagree with this, and that is perfectly fine, but simply because someone says feminism makes them feel victimized does not mean that person does not truly understand feminism.

WARNING, RAPE TALK NOT IN SPOILER!


I "thanked" your post because I agreed with some of your points.
I did not agree with this one I particular.
1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).
Reading statistics on rape does not make me feel safer. It shows me just how frequently it occurs. So our "actual risk factor" is HIGH!

At the risk of stepping into a minefield, when she talks about knowing the statistics, she has a point. I looked it up out of curiosity, and there are definite factors that effect how likely you are to be raped or sexually assaulted. There's also the matter of how rape is defined, and the fact that there are often repeat offenders, but aside from that, if these things are true:

1. You're a white female.
2. You mainly hang around with white males.
3. You avoid getting heavily intoxicated, and avoid heavily intoxicated people in situations where you could be raped.

Your chances of being raped are much lower than the statistic you cited.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

I don't even know what a modern day feminist is. I want equal rights for all people on earth, does this make me a feminist? Do I have to be female to be a feminist? The only feminists I know are those awful internet feminists that don't really do anything to help womens rights or equality. They just call themselves feminists and say dumb shit all the time. Sucks that you rarely hear about the women(and men) that go and risk their lives to fight for equality.

 

[AllisonWilder]

Feminism says "women don't feel safe walking down the street because of male harassment and fear of rape, what are you going to do about it, men? Don't rape!" instead of "maybe we should look at statistics to judge our actual risk factors instead of allowing our emotions to drive us into viewing all men as rapists" or "maybe I should increase my own personal security so I am no longer living in fear."

This is why many women say that feminism makes them feel victimized instead of empowered. You may disagree with this, and that is perfectly fine, but simply because someone says feminism makes them feel victimized does not mean that person does not truly understand feminism.

WARNING, RAPE TALK NOT IN SPOILER!


I "thanked" your post because I agreed with some of your points.
I did not agree with this one I particular.
1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).
Reading statistics on rape does not make me feel safer. It shows me just how frequently it occurs. So our "actual risk factor" is HIGH!
Of course not all men are rapist, but going out to a club full of 200+ men, it is almost a fact there will be at least one rapist there. That's scary.
Do I live my life in fear? No. Am I cautious? Most of the time. But fear is one of those things that can (in moderation) be a good thing. And it's really not something you have a lot of control over. You only have so much control over your feelings but you have complete control over your actions (unless you have turrets or something.)
The fact that you mentioned increasing your own personal security, disgusts me. I shouldn't have to wear turtle necks (not that it even helps since rapes happen regardless of what you wear.) I shouldn't have to carry pepper spray on me at all times. Although rape will never cease to exist and it is a good idea to have security, I shouldn't NEED it!
It is up to the rapists to not rape! By even mentioning personal security you are insinuating it is the victims/survivor/(whatever you want to fucking call them) fault.
I thankfully have never been raped but your post was insulting to all women, regardless.

At the risk of stepping into a minefield, when she talks about knowing the statistics, she has a point. I looked it up out of curiosity, and there are definite factors that effect how likely you are to be raped or sexually assaulted. There's also the matter of how rape is defined, but aside from that, if these things are true:

1. You're a white female.
2. You mainly hang around with white males.
3. You avoid getting heavily intoxicated, and avoid heavily intoxicated people in situations where you could be raped.

Your chances of being raped are much lower than the statistic you cited.

The thing here is that a person should be able to get heavily intoxicated or wear whatever or not carry a weapon or not surround themselves with other people and not have to worry about someone raping them because it's not on the people (man or woman) getting raped to avoid XYZ, it's on the people (man or woman) who are doing the raping to just not rape.

 

[AllisonWilder]

I don't even know what a modern day feminist is. I want equal rights for all people on earth, does this make me a feminist? Do I have to be female to be a feminist? The only feminists I know are those awful internet feminists that don't really do anything to help womens rights or equality. They just call themselves feminists and say dumb shit all the time. Sucks that you rarely hear about the women(and men) that go and risk their lives to fight for equality.

It means you fit the definition of a feminist, yes, but only you can decide if you are one. No, you don't have to be female to be a feminist. The awful internet feminists are extremists that make the whole cause look like a joke.

 

[LilLitaRose]

Feminism says "women don't feel safe walking down the street because of male harassment and fear of rape, what are you going to do about it, men? Don't rape!" instead of "maybe we should look at statistics to judge our actual risk factors instead of allowing our emotions to drive us into viewing all men as rapists" or "maybe I should increase my own personal security so I am no longer living in fear."

This is why many women say that feminism makes them feel victimized instead of empowered. You may disagree with this, and that is perfectly fine, but simply because someone says feminism makes them feel victimized does not mean that person does not truly understand feminism.

WARNING, RAPE TALK NOT IN SPOILER!


I "thanked" your post because I agreed with some of your points.
I did not agree with this one I particular.
1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).
Reading statistics on rape does not make me feel safer. It shows me just how frequently it occurs. So our "actual risk factor" is HIGH!

At the risk of stepping into a minefield, when she talks about knowing the statistics, she has a point. I looked it up out of curiosity, and there are definite factors that effect how likely you are to be raped or sexually assaulted. There's also the matter of how rape is defined, and the fact that there are often repeat offenders, but aside from that, if these things are true:

1. You're a white female.
2. You mainly hang around with white males.
3. You avoid getting heavily intoxicated, and avoid heavily intoxicated people in situations where you could be raped.

Your chances of being raped are much lower than the statistic you cited.

I am all three of those things...
I am a victim of rape.

I understand we're talking statistics here, but I think we need to focus on the idea of education that men are not entitled to a woman.
That we are not to be shamed for what we wear.
That we should not be told, to not drink.

Because I was wearing my work clothes of khaki pants and a baggy tee-shirt, and was sober.
I want to know that victims and future victims, both male and female, are supported and aren't told, "Well, that's what happens when you drink".
I'm sorry if I'm coming from an emotional place, but this is a bit of a sore subject for me, especially because my assailant will never see jail time.

 

[Joeternal]

I am all three of those things...
I am a victim of rape.

I understand we're talking statistics here, but I think we need to focus on the idea of education that men are not entitled to a woman.
That we are not to be shamed for what we wear.
That we should not be told, to not drink.

Because I was wearing my work clothes of khaki pants and a baggy tee-shirt, and was sober.
I want to know that victims and future victims, both male and female, are supported and aren't told, "Well, that's what happens when you drink".
I'm sorry if I'm coming from an emotional place, but this is a bit of a sore subject for me, especially because my assailant will never see jail time.

I knew one woman who was raped, before and after it happened. I know the effect it has, and I'm not minimizing it in any way. But you cannot prevent crime by pre-emptively accusing the innocent. And unfortunately that is what feminism often does.

 

[I_Love_You503]

Woman against (western) feminism here.

People say a lot that if you're against feminism, you don't really know what feminism is, and I find that to be insulting.

Wikipedia defines feminism as a movement of 'equal rights for women,' which is pretty damn vague. Feminism has encompassed many years, many different movements, and many people, and what feminism means to society keeps changing. We have this ideal of how things 'should be,' and frequently people attach the label of 'feminism' to it - regardless of what feminism actually means to society.

I don't identify as a feminist because, based on everything I have seen from feminists and the feminist movement, I disagree with the majority of it. It is not because I don't understand it, it is because it actually is possible to have a differing opinion without being an idiot. To insinuate that I don't get it is demeaning to my intelligence.

I want equal legal rights for everybody. In that sense of feminism, I am a feminist, but I think to go strictly by that definition is really a thing of the past.

I think a lot of what you're saying makes sense given the media's, chiefly the Internet's, projection of feminism. But having worked in the feminist non-profit sector, at a woman-centric immigration centre and a women's shelter, there is a lot of important differences in the way that feminism function at a grassroots level.

A large proportion of the clients at the shelter, and obviously at the immigration centre, were new immigrants from the developing world. I live in one of the largest cities in North America, and it is 50% composed of first generation citizens. A lot of these clients come from cultures where their rights and freedoms are severely undermined because of their gender. Feminism can empower these women in a way that an "egalitarian" gender movement simply couldn't.

I know your post also specified "Western" feminism, but I'm just not sure what that means. All movements from all around the world that seek to protect the rights of women are feminist, and I think we can all agree that many, many female populations across the globe are deeply disempowered. To tell these women that they shouldn't be feminists and instead should be "egalitarian" would be extremely insulting to their cause. In these countries women do face more injustice than men and they deserve a dedicated movement for their gender. But what's the difference between a feminist in Dhaka and a feminist in Toronto? It just doesn't make sense to say "Oh, I'm a feminist for Bangladeshi women, but not Canadian women."

This is why it makes more sense for feminism to be a broad, all-encompassing term to signify the believe that women should have equal rights as men. It's not a thing of the past yet. You can choose to be Episcopalian instead of Catholic, but their both Christians. Why can't you be an intersectional feminist instead of a radical feminist, while accepting both are Feminist?

 

[LilLitaRose]

I am all three of those things...
I am a victim of rape.

I understand we're talking statistics here, but I think we need to focus on the idea of education that men are not entitled to a woman.
That we are not to be shamed for what we wear.
That we should not be told, to not drink.

Because I was wearing my work clothes of khaki pants and a baggy tee-shirt, and was sober.
I want to know that victims and future victims, both male and female, are supported and aren't told, "Well, that's what happens when you drink".
I'm sorry if I'm coming from an emotional place, but this is a bit of a sore subject for me, especially because my assailant will never see jail time.

I knew one woman who was raped, before and after it happened. I know the effect it has, and I'm not minimizing it in any way. But you cannot prevent crime by pre-emptively accusing the innocent. And unfortunately that is what feminism often does.

Some people under the feminist flag does. That doesn't make all feminists like that. Just like not all cis people are transphobic.
I have a friend whom works for Planned Parenthood. They are a group of feminists who I know would not have told me years ago that "Well he's just a Navy boy, that's what they do".
That comment, is the reason I need feminism.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

Feminism says "women don't feel safe walking down the street because of male harassment and fear of rape, what are you going to do about it, men? Don't rape!" instead of "maybe we should look at statistics to judge our actual risk factors instead of allowing our emotions to drive us into viewing all men as rapists" or "maybe I should increase my own personal security so I am no longer living in fear."

This is why many women say that feminism makes them feel victimized instead of empowered. You may disagree with this, and that is perfectly fine, but simply because someone says feminism makes them feel victimized does not mean that person does not truly understand feminism.

WARNING, RAPE TALK NOT IN SPOILER!


I "thanked" your post because I agreed with some of your points.
I did not agree with this one I particular.
1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).
Reading statistics on rape does not make me feel safer. It shows me just how frequently it occurs. So our "actual risk factor" is HIGH!

At the risk of stepping into a minefield, when she talks about knowing the statistics, she has a point. I looked it up out of curiosity, and there are definite factors that effect how likely you are to be raped or sexually assaulted. There's also the matter of how rape is defined, and the fact that there are often repeat offenders, but aside from that, if these things are true:

1. You're a white female.
2. You mainly hang around with white males.
3. You avoid getting heavily intoxicated, and avoid heavily intoxicated people in situations where you could be raped.

Your chances of being raped are much lower than the statistic you cited.

Where are you getting your facts from? Asian and Hispanic women are less likely to get raped.
But statistics aside, rape happens. That's a fact. And it is not unreasonable to be fearful about it. I don't believe in letting fear dictate your life, but no one should tell a woman she needs to carry a weapon on her to feel safe. Everyone SHOULD feel safe, because rape shouldn't happen. And it's ONLY the rapists fault. It's not the fault of the victim because they didn't have pepper spray. It's not the fault of the victim because they drank too much. It's not the fault of the victim because of their skin color.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

I am all three of those things...
I am a victim of rape.

I understand we're talking statistics here, but I think we need to focus on the idea of education that men are not entitled to a woman.
That we are not to be shamed for what we wear.
That we should not be told, to not drink.

Because I was wearing my work clothes of khaki pants and a baggy tee-shirt, and was sober.
I want to know that victims and future victims, both male and female, are supported and aren't told, "Well, that's what happens when you drink".
I'm sorry if I'm coming from an emotional place, but this is a bit of a sore subject for me, especially because my assailant will never see jail time.

I knew one woman who was raped, before and after it happened. I know the effect it has, and I'm not minimizing it in any way. But you cannot prevent crime by pre-emptively accusing the innocent. And unfortunately that is what feminism often does.

REAL feminists are for equal rights. Men can often wear a thong to the beach and not get harassed. Women do not have that luxury. Feminists want women to be able to feel safe, even while wearing skimpy clothes, like most men do. Feminists do not blame women for getting raped, they blame the rapist.
Maybe you're referring to the insane women that incorrectly label themselves, but they ought to be ignored and not looked at as an accurate representation of the movement.

 

[Joeternal]

Where are you getting your facts from? Asian and Hispanic women are less likely to get raped.

The FBI. They only report "white", "black" and "other". I think the Asian population is too small to get reliable statistics, and Hispanics are often counted as white. So I'm not sure where you get that part of it from, but I'll take your word for it.

But statistics aside, rape happens. That's a fact. And it is not unreasonable to be fearful about it. I don't believe in letting fear dictate your life, but no one should tell a woman she needs to carry a weapon on her to feel safe. Everyone SHOULD feel safe, because rape shouldn't happen. And it's ONLY the rapists fault. It's not the fault of the victim because they didn't have pepper spray. It's not the fault of the victim because they drank too much. It's not the fault of the victim because of their skin color.

That's why we have a criminal justice system. And promoting messages like "no means no" is great. But when you go beyond that and start suggesting that all men are rapists, which is what radical feminists do, that is wrong. As for drugs and alcohol, whether the victim was intoxicated only matters in a "date rape" case where there is a dispute about whether or not there was consent. But I'm not an MRA guy, so I'm not going to get into arguing that subject.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

Where are you getting your facts from? Asian and Hispanic women are less likely to get raped.

The FBI. They only report "white", "black" and "other". I think the Asian population is too small to get reliable statistics, and Hispanics are often counted as white. So I'm not sure where you get that part of it from, but I'll take your word for it.

But statistics aside, rape happens. That's a fact. And it is not unreasonable to be fearful about it. I don't believe in letting fear dictate your life, but no one should tell a woman she needs to carry a weapon on her to feel safe. Everyone SHOULD feel safe, because rape shouldn't happen. And it's ONLY the rapists fault. It's not the fault of the victim because they didn't have pepper spray. It's not the fault of the victim because they drank too much. It's not the fault of the victim because of their skin color.

That's why we have a criminal justice system. And promoting messages like "no means no" is great. But when you go beyond that and start suggesting that all men are rapists, which is what radical feminists do, that is wrong. As for drugs and alcohol, whether the victim was intoxicated only matters in a "date rape" case where there is a dispute about whether or not there was consent. But I'm not an MRA guy, so I'm not going to get into arguing that subject.

http://www.rccmsc.org/resources/get-the-facts.aspx :thumbleft:
Criminal justice system? That's a fucking joke!
https://rainn.org/news-room/97-of-every ... punishment

 

[JickyJuly]

I think we've pretty much all agreed that the extremist sect is not in touch with reality, Joe. But, some of the victim blaming also suggests that men are all rapey. When law enforcement asks what a woman was wearing or how much she had to drink, it's implied that the average man can't control himself near an incapacitated girl in a tube top. Pretty insulting to the male population, isn't it? Equality for both genders is needed. More men should be upset about victim shaming.

 

[I_Love_You503]

I also sort of wanted to post about something that annoys me about feminism's history. I don't think it has done anything to garner respect for traditionally feminine work. I wish that in addition to pushing the message that women could do anything men could do, feminists also pushed that all the things women were already doing were valuable and deserved respect. Thing like raising children, maintaining a home, or even working as caregivers (nurses, teachers etc.)

It's easy to see that these roles don't command a lot of respect. When a man decides to be the stay-at-home parent he's snickered at. When the female CEO of Pepsi decided to step down so she could spend more time with her family people were shocked. How is it shocking to choose your family over a soda company? Why should everyone want to aspire to powerful leadership positions? Feminine jobs usually support roles, not leadership roles. But I don't think there's anything shameful in wanting to be a nurse instead of a doctor, or be a teacher instead of an academic, or stay at home with your kids instead of working in financial services. All of these things are beautiful compassionate decisions that are not afforded the respect they deserve because they don't lead to personal wealth and power, and also because they happen to be women's work.

 

[Aella]

There are a lot of points made in this thread and I apologize if I don't reply specifically to yours.

1) "Real feminism."

You are giving feminism a definition - "equality for all." It makes sense we all want equality for all. I want equality for all. You want equality for all. If "equality for all" is "feminism," then by your definition, I am a feminist.

I take issue with this mainly in that wikipedia defines feminism as "equality for women," whereas the definition of egalitarianism is "Egalitarianism". I would say, based on these definitions alone, "egalitarianism" is a far more accurate descriptor of "equality for all" than "feminism" is.

Therefore, based on THAT ALONE, I can say you would be more accurate in using the term "egalitarianism."

This does not necessarily say I am not a feminist, though. I say I am not a feminist because I disagree with you that "feminism" means "equality for all." I think that's where we differ, mainly. Of course if you say true feminism is equality for all, then by your definition, I am a feminist, and you would be correct. I do not define feminism as equality for all, and thus by my understanding I am not a feminist.

By this point using the word "feminist" kind of becomes meaningless, as we are operating off of different definitions.

And this is why I usually go to specific issues I tend to disagree with feminists on in order to clarify the meat of what I believe, instead of giving it a term. I believe rape culture is a myth. I believe the pay gap is not a result of systematic oppression. I believe that women are not systematically oppressed (in western culture). I believe rape statistics are inflated. I believe that the society-based struggles men face are just as bad as what women face (and thus should have an EQUAL amount of discussion, something not seen in feminism). I believe if a man won't date you because you're 5 pounds too heavy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Various feminists will disagree with me on various amounts of those points in varying amounts of severity. The entire movement is huge and not uniform. My point, though, is that many of the core principles that you believe represent "equality for all" are NOT things I agree with.

So 'what makes a feminist' depends on your definition, and a definition of something so vague and so continuously shifting is very difficult. But, I would argue, it is NOT as something as simple as "equality," not by a long shot. That has many different interpretations, and feminists have one very specific interpretation of equality.



As for nonwestern feminism, there I agree that feminism is needed. The laws themselves are absolutely and actively discriminatory against women, and they should be repealed. Of course feminism is needed there, because women are not equal, not by the way I define equality, or by yours. There are also pockets of cultures within American culture as well that definitely need feminism (I'm looking at you, religious fundamentalists who use religion in place of actual law).



I am also a victim of sexual assault, but I don't typically talk about it because I don't see what point that has in discussions about statistics and risk. I believe the risk is over inflated (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... tions.html). I believe that there is nothing wrong in advising a woman to take the safer road or to watch her drink at parties. I have seen no evidence to suggest that clothing choice affects your risk level, so I disagree with saying "cover up."
The majority of rapes are committed by people you already know (thus reducing risk level in crowded social events like a 200+ person party).

Rape does happen. So does assault, murder, domestic violence, harassment, and many other things, both more and less traumatic, and both happen to both genders. There are many things we should be doing to reduce this - higher education, more loving parents, encouraging women to report rapes, encouraging personal security, defense, and situational awareness. But going "men don't rape!" is ridiculous.

Emotional coercion is not rape. Getting drunk and regretting it is not rape. Being uncomfortable but not saying no is not rape. These are the primary situations in which advising men not to "rape" might be effective - by labeling many things that aren't rape, rape, thus scaring the men out of doing it.

Do you still consider me to be a feminist, based on the things I have stated above? Are those views aligned with feminism?

 

[Joeternal]

I also sort of wanted to post about something that annoys me about feminism's history. I don't think it has done anything to garner respect for traditionally feminine work. I wish that in addition to pushing the message that women could do anything men could do, feminists also pushed that all the things women were already doing were valuable and deserved respect. Thing like raising children, maintaining a home, or even working as caregivers (nurses, teachers etc.)

It's easy to see that these roles don't command a lot of respect. When a man decides to be the stay-at-home parent he's snickered at. When the female CEO of Pepsi decided to step down so she could spend more time with her family people were shocked. How is it shocking to choose your family over a soda company? Why should everyone want to aspire to powerful leadership positions? Feminine jobs usually support roles, not leadership roles. But I don't think there's anything shameful in wanting to be a nurse instead of a doctor, or be a teacher instead of an academic, or stay at home with your kids instead of working in financial services. All of these things are beautiful compassionate decisions that are not afforded the respect they deserve because they don't lead to personal wealth and power, and also because they happen to be women's work.

Having been hospitalized for a few days not long ago, I can say from experience, without a doubt, that if someone is going to jab a needle into your arm, YOU WANT IT TO BE A WOMAN.

 

[Joeternal]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/01/08/the_enliven_project_s_false_rape_accusations_infographic_great_intentions.html

From that article: "Your average rapist stacks up six victims."

Add that to the factors I quoted before, and you start to get a realistic picture.