Trayvon Martin

[Bocefish]

I figured that would be next since just about everything else has all ready been thrown my way. It's too bad the media can't be held responsible for inciting so much racial animosity with their manipulation and lies.

Assuming "what's coming next" is an awful lot like a straw dog. I think I'd wait before "pre-accusing."

After being accused of gender bias, I thought it would clear things up all at once. Don't like it? Tough shit.

 

[Anonymous]

It's rather interesting all the things I'm being accused of. I don't give a shit what color your skin is or what gender you are. I also never factored skin color into how I'm looking at the case and never did. If you look at where I posted the tits GIF, it was an attempt to lighten things up after seeing the GIF Sweep posted. I thought it was funny. How can you not laugh at Bugs & Daffy arguing about tits?

Your little rant is pretty funny to me, considering that I haven't actually accused you of being racist...lol. Now I'm curious where THAT is coming from.

 

[Bocefish]

It's rather interesting all the things I'm being accused of. I don't give a shit what color your skin is or what gender you are. I also never factored skin color into how I'm looking at the case and never did. If you look at where I posted the tits GIF, it was an attempt to lighten things up after seeing the GIF Sweep posted. I thought it was funny. How can you not laugh at Bugs & Daffy arguing about tits?

Your little rant is pretty funny to me, considering that I haven't actually accused you of being racist...lol. Now I'm curious where THAT is coming from.

Never said you did, but glad I could amuse you.

 

[Jupiter551]

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-01-05/news/30595165_1_face-murder-charges-killing-bus

Interesting case. A Florida Teen was jumped by another at the bus-stop. Jorge Saavedra produced a knife and killed his attacker, one Dylan Nuno. Jorge Saavedra was armed because of bullying The Judge dismissed the case under SYG.

http://m.naplesnews.com/news/2011/dec/08/judge-to-rule-on-saavedra-stand-your-ground-by/

The matchup of fists versus a knife is the root of the problem, the prosecution argued. Retaliating with punches would be meeting "force with force" in a classic legal definition of self-defense, they said.

Absence of bruising or other physical injuries to Saavedra from the punches meant there "was no danger of Jorge being maimed that day, being permanently disable, being killed. ... Nowhere near that," Assistant State Attorney Tom Gorman III said. "The defendant went so far beyond what was reasonable that day."

SYG is also a 'Stand-Against-Your-Bullies-Kill-Them-and-Get-Away-With-It-Law'. How is that for Anti-Bullying? I Fucking Love It.

Isn't that an example of how people use deadly force in inappropriate situations and essentially get away with murder?

I just had a thought that might shed some light on things.

Hey Jupiter, what is the penalty where you are from of landing in jail? What is the penalty of being tried and acquitted?

Same as there, there might be some social stigma over having KILLED A PERSON, but if it was actually and clearly self-defense I doubt it would negatively impact you. People have to go to court for fucking SPEEDING tickets, they should definitely have to go to court over killing someone. No one questions whether someone who got drunk and hit their wife and for some technicality gets dismissed in court, should have to deal with the stigma of having been in court.

The police and courts shouldn't have to be so fucking scared to do their job for fear of litigation that murderers get to walk away free.

The point being you can't judge a person innocent after killing someone just cos they said they were, it needs to be looked at. Yeah it costs money, yeah they might have to go to court and get acquitted - that's the price of justice, you'd want justice if someone killed a member of your family.

Interesting tidbit. Zimmerman waived his right to have an attorney present when he was questioned by the police for several hours following the shooting. He didn't have an attorney present when he walked the PD through the events later. And Police still had no evidence, no probable cause and no inconsistencies in his account.

His father was present at both and he is a former judge, and a retired attorney, which makes him at least as qualified as most practicing attorneys on matters of police procedure.

 

[Anonymous]

It's rather interesting all the things I'm being accused of. I don't give a shit what color your skin is or what gender you are. I also never factored skin color into how I'm looking at the case and never did. If you look at where I posted the tits GIF, it was an attempt to lighten things up after seeing the GIF Sweep posted. I thought it was funny. How can you not laugh at Bugs & Daffy arguing about tits?

Your little rant is pretty funny to me, considering that I haven't actually accused you of being racist...lol. Now I'm curious where THAT is coming from.

Never said you did, but glad I could amuse you.

So then why did you feel the need to quote me and then say "I don't give a shit what color your skin is." LOL. I didn't say a thing about race in my previous post. YOU brought that up.....

 

[Bocefish]

It's rather interesting all the things I'm being accused of. I don't give a shit what color your skin is or what gender you are. I also never factored skin color into how I'm looking at the case and never did. If you look at where I posted the tits GIF, it was an attempt to lighten things up after seeing the GIF Sweep posted. I thought it was funny. How can you not laugh at Bugs & Daffy arguing about tits?

Your little rant is pretty funny to me, considering that I haven't actually accused you of being racist...lol. Now I'm curious where THAT is coming from.

Never said you did, but glad I could amuse you.

So then why did you feel the need to quote me and then say "I don't give a shit what color your skin is." LOL. I didn't say a thing about race in my previous post. YOU brought that up.....

I quoted the entire portion of the thread, including LL's post. If you think I'm being gender biased, it's not a huge leap to wonder what else might be in doubt after numerous accusations of disrespecting the Martin family as well.

 

[Anonymous]

I quoted the entire portion of the thread, including LL's post.

And NONE of those quoted messages said anything about race.....

After numerous accusations of disrespecting the Martin family as well.

Oh, you must be talking about this (see below). And yeah, I said it.....

He doesn't have to be proven guilty, he confessed. He's guilty.

They just have to decide to what degree of what charge he is guilty.

This.

Anyone who argues with the above statement clearly has no respect for Trayvon's family.

 

[Bocefish]

I quoted the entire portion of the thread, including LL's post.

And NONE of those quoted messages said anything about race.....

After numerous accusations of disrespecting the Martin family as well.

Oh, you must be talking about this (see below). And yeah, I said it.....

He doesn't have to be proven guilty, he confessed. He's guilty.

They just have to decide to what degree of what charge he is guilty.

This.

Anyone who argues with the above statement clearly has no respect for Trayvon's family.

Yes, there and when I posted a recent pic of Trayon with his gold teeth. Somehow that was disrespecting his family as well.

 

[Jupiter551]

Fox, maybe he read one of the NBC edited versions of your posts and it implied you thought the issue was race :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, there and when I posted a recent pic of Trayon with his gold teeth. Somehow that was disrespecting his family as well.

If you're referring to the pic of that guy who looks nothing like Trayvon, yeah, I found that to be very disrespectful. Way to show your condolences for the family.....

Oh, and the comments that you and others have made saying "Well keep in mind that he was suspended from school." So that makes everything okay, right? I got detention once in high school (for being late to class 3 times). That automatically means I'm not worth a damn, right? Nice.....

I love how some of the Zimmerman defenders are trying so hard to make Trayvon look bad and make it look like "he had it coming."

And not just you...that Geraldo guy who looks like he has a freaking thousand-legger on his face (his mustache)...he said "This is why parents need to stop letting their kids go outside wearing hoodies!" :roll: He may not have meant any harm with that statement, but wow...yeah, let's blame the parents for letting him wear a hoodie outside in the winter.....

 

[Nordling]

Relevance. Posting uncertified photos of a young person who happens to have some gold on their lower incisors, to one side in an attempt to discredit another person who happens to be a murder victim is disrespectful, yes. And about as relevant as this:

 

[LadyLuna]

Jupiter, here's what I mean...

Guy gets murdered, no one sees who did it. They arrest one dude who had a grudge against the guy because his gun is the same type as the bullets found at the scene. Later, it's revealed that the bullets didn't come from his particular gun, and he's free to walk.

However, since he was arrested in the first place, his life is pretty much ruined. He will be so lucky to get an interview in which he can explain that he was acquitted and had nothing to do with it, and actually be believed by the interviewer.

I firmly agree that the Zimmerman-Martin case should've been looked into a lot better a lot sooner. I was just saying, cases like what I just typed in this post are why laws that prevent innocent people from even being arrested in the first place are important.

 

[Nordling]

Jupiter, here's what I mean...

Guy gets murdered, no one sees who did it. They arrest one dude who had a grudge against the guy because his gun is the same type as the bullets found at the scene. Later, it's revealed that the bullets didn't come from his particular gun, and he's free to walk.

However, since he was arrested in the first place, his life is pretty much ruined. He will be so lucky to get an interview in which he can explain that he was acquitted and had nothing to do with it, and actually be believed by the interviewer.

I firmly agree that the Zimmerman-Martin case should've been looked into a lot better a lot sooner. I was just saying, cases like what I just typed in this post are why laws that prevent innocent people from even being arrested in the first place are important.

I agree. Although instituting better police procedures in many cases would mitigate this possibility. It's why police will say things like, "we are interviewing a person of interest" but don't release a name until they're pretty sure there's a strong case for guilt.

SYG, is just a bad law; it has encouraged more people to kill others...and the fact that it wasn't really written by actual legislators but comes out of the butt of the ALEC/Koch Brothers/NRA combine makes me very suspicious even before I read about it. It's one thing for lobbies to influence legislators, but to actually write the laws is simply wrong.

 

[Kradek]

SYG...has encouraged more people to kill others

[citation needed]

 

[Nordling]

SYG...has encouraged more people to kill others

[citation needed]

I don't want to derail the thread too much but here's a start:

http://open.salon.com/blog/steve_klingaman/2012/04/11/ten_reasons_to_repeal_stand_your_ground_laws

and

http://inthesetimes.com/duly-noted/entry/12950/alec_pushed_for_stand_your_ground_laws/

 

[Bocefish]

Relevance. Posting uncertified photos of a young person who happens to have some gold on their lower incisors, to one side in an attempt to discredit another person who happens to be a murder victim is disrespectful, yes.

I call bullshit. That pic of him with the gold teeth is indeed Trayvon, if you can't see that you're blind. It's from his own Twitter ffs. How many times has has Zim's past actions of being arrested, marital disputes, mug shots... been brought up to show his character or possible state of mind? But it's somehow disrespectful to bring up questions that may show Tray in reality instead of the cherubic image of a 12 year old the media keeps using? Yeah right.

 

[LadyLuna]

Didn't someone somewhere say that Trayvon's Facebook account was hacked about a week after this case came under media scrutiny?

 

[Kradek]

I don't want to derail the thread too much but here's a start:

http://open.salon.com/blog/steve_klingaman/2012/04/11/ten_reasons_to_repeal_stand_your_ground_laws

and

http://inthesetimes.com/duly-noted/entry/12950/alec_pushed_for_stand_your_ground_laws/

Sorry, I mean do you have some documentation other than an opinion piece? For example, is there a documented case of someone that killed someone else because they thought SYG would protect them? Any peer reviewed studies?

 

[Nordling]

I don't want to derail the thread too much but here's a start:

http://open.salon.com/blog/steve_klingaman/2012/04/11/ten_reasons_to_repeal_stand_your_ground_laws

and

http://inthesetimes.com/duly-noted/entry/12950/alec_pushed_for_stand_your_ground_laws/

Sorry, I mean do you have some documentation other than an opinion piece? For example, is there a documented case of someone that killed someone else because they thought SYG would protect them? Any peer reviewed studies?

Oh, no. Not saying such don't exist but it would be pretty hard to prove someone was thinking "hey, I'll kill this person, after all SYG will protect me."

What I have heard on air are citations of higher "self defense" pleas that allowed killers to get off when they would otherwise have been convicted of some level of murder. Well, except John McNeil.

 

[LeenaLiberty]

re: the shooting...

Why could it have not just been this guy...?

 

[Jupiter551]

SYG...has encouraged more people to kill others

[citation needed]

increase in comparitive death by firearm rate since SYG:
2002 Florida ranked equal 24th among US states for firearm death per capita http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000
2008 Florida ranked 19th among US states for firearm death per capita http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=113&cat=2

It's also worth noting that although the nationwide average fell from 11.5 per 100,000 people in 2002 to 10.3 in 2008, Florida went from below the national average in 2002, to more than 20% above the average in 2008.

(Note that all the above statistics are originally collated from CDC reports of annual deathrates, but if you want to go digging through the documents to find the source statistics be my guest, the links are in the pages above)

Jupiter, here's what I mean...

Guy gets murdered, no one sees who did it. They arrest one dude who had a grudge against the guy because his gun is the same type as the bullets found at the scene. Later, it's revealed that the bullets didn't come from his particular gun, and he's free to walk.

However, since he was arrested in the first place, his life is pretty much ruined. He will be so lucky to get an interview in which he can explain that he was acquitted and had nothing to do with it, and actually be believed by the interviewer.

I firmly agree that the Zimmerman-Martin case should've been looked into a lot better a lot sooner. I was just saying, cases like what I just typed in this post are why laws that prevent innocent people from even being arrested in the first place are important.

I agree, but it really is just a cost of having an effective justice system at all. What about men who in some cases get falsely accused of pedophilia? Their lives and probably careers are often irrepairably damaged, and that really sucks. But if that's the cost of victims being able to speak out and actual pedophiles be caught then as a society I think we're willing to accept it.

 

[Kradek]

increase in comparitive death by firearm rate since SYG:
2002 Florida ranked equal 24th among US states for firearm death per capita http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mu ... er-100-000
2008 Florida ranked 19th among US states for firearm death per capita http://www.statehealthfacts.org/compare ... =113&cat=2

It's also worth noting that although the nationwide average fell from 11.5 per 100,000 people in 2002 to 10.3 in 2008, Florida went from below the national average in 2002, to more than 20% above the average in 2008.

Statistics are fun. One thing to note, over the period of time you quote above, Florida's population rose by approximately 2M people. Here is a screen shot from a report run on the DOJ and FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Statistics site.

You can use the link above to get to the reporting tool yourself. You'll note that what you quote above is indeed true, crime rates rose through 2007, but then they fell in the subsequent years, and in 2010, the murder rate was below 2002. In other words, in 2010, the total number of murder an non-negligent mansalughters increased from 911 to 987, but the number/100,000 (taking into account population) decreased by 0.3.

 

[Jupiter551]

increase in comparitive death by firearm rate since SYG:
2002 Florida ranked equal 24th among US states for firearm death per capita http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mu ... er-100-000
2008 Florida ranked 19th among US states for firearm death per capita http://www.statehealthfacts.org/compare ... =113&cat=2

It's also worth noting that although the nationwide average fell from 11.5 per 100,000 people in 2002 to 10.3 in 2008, Florida went from below the national average in 2002, to more than 20% above the average in 2008.

Statistics are fun. One thing to note, over the period of time you quote above, Florida's population rose by approximately 2M people. Here is a screen shot from a report run on the DOJ and FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Statistics site.

You can use the link above to get to the reporting tool yourself. You'll note that what you quote above is indeed true, crime rates rose through 2007, but then they fell in the subsequent years, and in 2010, the murder rate was below 2002. In other words, in 2010, the total number of murder an non-negligent mansalughters increased from 911 to 987, but the number/100,000 (taking into account population) decreased by 0.3.

a) it's already adjusted for population - it's number of deaths per 100,000, the rate of death is not linked to population increase as far as the statistics show.
b) the population growth over the last 10 years isn't cumulatively 20%, if you're implying population and firearm death rate are linked.
c) Self-Defense isn't counted as a crime, so looking at murder and manslaughter statistics is worthless. Look at firearm deaths, cases thrown out via SYG are in there with the rest of the deaths. If you can find annual justifiable homocide statistics (by non law-enforcement) for Florida for that period and correlate them with firearm murders and manslaughter then that might be more accurate.
d) you asked for evidence that more people had been killed since SYG was introduced - highly specific statistics are hard to come by, but the rate of firearm deaths in florida has increased at a higher rate than the national average since the law was introduced, suggesting that quite possibly more people are dying because of the law (particularly if murder by firearm rates have dropped, and there is no significant increase in firearm suicide rates over the same period). 20% is a freakin HUGE increase in 6 years.

 

[Bocefish]

Why Trayvon Martin's Case May Not Go To A Jury
South Florida Criminal Lawyers Blog
Posted on Sun Apr 15 2012 15:01:36 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time)

Now that prosecutors have brought charges against George Zimmerman, you probably think that a jury is going to hear the facts and decide the case. Think again. Under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, if George Zimmerman can convince a judge that he acted justifiably, he is entitled to immunity from prosecution. That means no jury; no conviction; no jail. Think of it as a big "Get Out of Jail Free" card. It is worth repeating: Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law does not just provide an affirmative defense; it provides immunity. The distinction is extremely significant...

Thus, when looking at the elements that Zimmerman must establish to prove he acted justifiably, it seems reasonably certain that Zimmerman can prove by a preponderance of the evidence that: 1) he was not otherwise engaged in unlawful activity; 2) he was at a place where he had a right to be; 3) he was attacked; and 4) he reasonably feared he would lose his life or suffer great bodily injury. The State has never alleged--nor could they--that Zimmerman's following of Trayvon Martin was an unlawful activity; or that it placed Zimmerman at a location where Zimmerman had no right to be. Similarly, as already stated, the State does not seem to have an eye-witness to the initial physical confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin. Therefore, it will be extremely difficult for the State to contradict Zimmerman's claim that Martin attacked him and bashed his head into the concrete, creating for Zimmerman a well-founded fear of great bodily injury.....

Make no mistake: George Zimmerman has a real chance of avoiding a jury. All he has to do is convince a judge, by a preponderance of the evidence, that he acted in justifiable self-defense.

(Excerpt) Read more at southfloridacriminallawyersblog.com ...

 

[Bocefish]

re: the shooting...

Why could it have not just been this guy...?

LOL, what did that guy do you want him shot?

 

[Nordling]

As I understand it, in Florida, the law is set up so SYG defenses require a special, pre-trial hearing, and if it's shown that the defense is without merit, it can't be used during the actual trial... I assume the reverse is true too, so yes, the case could be thrown out before it starts.

I doubt that is going to happen...if for no other reason, the political backlash would be huge.

 

[LeenaLiberty]

LOL, what did that guy do you want him shot?

He's been peeing in my flower beds, again.

 

[Nordling]

LOL, what did that guy do you want him shot?

He's been peeing in my flower beds, again.

:lol: I hate it when that happens to you. lol He also gave my sister the crabs, so I'm with you on this. lol

 

[Jupiter551]

It depends what the remainder of the prosecution evidence is, and I'm sure the last month of reinvestigation leading to charges led to something they believe contradicts Zimmerman on points 3 and/or 4.

The prosecution has been extremely tight-lipped about evidence which suggests not that they don't have any, but that they do. It is in no one's best interest to have any more evidence leaked to the media before it can end up in court. There could be anything from forensics to an analysis of the crime scene to a witness remembering some crucial detail they heard or saw - I think it's laughable all these legal experts making predictions before the evidence is suggested.

Why anyone would imagine an experienced prosecutor would set themselves up to fail in an extremely public case is beyond me.

PS I think that guy Leena posted is Shaun_?

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

Interesting read about the kid acquitted for stabbing his bully/attacker.
I actually agree with that one, if you're gonna be a bully, be ready to get stabbed or shot for being an asshole.

Probably not a popular view, but I hate bullies of any age. Fuck em.

Also, if Zim is let iff of the murder 2 charge, just like OJ, he may very well get sued in civil court for wrongful death and lose.

Which will effectively turn him into a slave until he pays off his restitution of.... millions.

if he walks on the murder, he has to sleep with one eye open for ever....
if he loses a wrongful death civil action after that, he's a slave for the rest of his working life.

He's pretty much fucked any way you look at it.