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Thoughts on flashing/public stuff

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Amber Cutie, I enjoy your site, but you’ve stooped to a new low here. You are perpetuating a false claim that Ginger inconsentingly flashed someone, which she has explauned she did not.
It looks like she has clarified the situation AFTER people have been bugging her about it.



I was using her tweets yesterday as an example of a topic that comes up frequently. My wording and phrasing doesn't make her sound like a monster, but if you really think this is a new low I can't help you. [Edit to add: It has been brought to my attention that you have taken your anger at ACF to a thread of subtweets calling us names. Which I think is far worse than posts in this thread. If you really feel that all of us here are so terrible, I will be glad to deactivate your account for you.]

She posted this herself, publicly, and it is being discussed on social media platforms including ACF.

Whether she did it in his face, or a few feet away, the discussion of public flashing and the stigmas it can perpetuate, as well as the difference when men/women do it is a very valid discussion to have.
 
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After her clarification that she did not flash him specifically, and was not even around him anymore, I don’t really think she did much wrong in the bar setting she was in. I completely misunderstood her as saying she flashed him after he said no. I was wrong.
 
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After her clarification that she did not flash him specifically, and was not even around him anymore, I don’t really think she did much wrong in the bar setting she was in. I completely misunderstood her as saying she flashed him after he said no. I was wrong.
Yeah I think a lot of people took from her initial wording that she directly violated someone's consent. I did not see tweets correcting that until this morning (and I saw your interaction with her as well.) It is much less serious, but the topic of public flashing is still a relevant one.

For example, on Manyvids' new MV Tube video page, note what the most popular category is:
Screen Shot 2018-11-10 at 9.15.26 AM.png
It's clearly a very big and popular taboo right now to cash in on. The question is: what should some standard rules be to ensure that nobody's consent is violated?
 
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This is my thought on the matter. I'm a retired biker and bouncer. Parties and in clubs and such. What I saw was no big deal. I've seen things like this many, many times.
A woman showing her tits to someone (with or without consent) is no different than a woman wearing a very revealing or see-through top in public.
I've always believed women should be allowed to be topless in public just like men.
Even if a community allows total nudity in public, that's their choice (although there would be an increased danger of unwanted sexual attention from pervs).
Sexual assaults didn't / don't seem to be an issue at nudist colonies.
As far as it being posted on twitter, from what I saw posted here, nobody was shown in a sexual / embarrassing manner without their consent.
Just my opinion.
 
Given the reactions she got, how can we know if she 'clarified' what happened or simply changed her story? Guess we can give the benefit of the doubt, but I still wonder. All in all it was an interesting discussion anyway.
 
The question is: what should some standard rules be to ensure that nobody's consent is violated?
I think this is the topic that needs real discussion. Sure she asked one guy to touch her, then walked away from him to flash [the camera] but the thing is, she was in a club, there are still clearly others who saw the flash that she did not ask. This topic is a huge amount of confusion for me because I believe women should be allowed to be topless but I also know that breasts are sexualized much more than men's chests. I know that the taboo nature makes it a huge fetish too. But I also believe violating people's consent is wrong and to me that includes showing them something sexual or violent/grotesque without their consent. I dunno how I feel about this to be honest.

I can't help but wonder how the situation would've been different if it was a girl who wasn't conventionally attractive. Would so many people be rallying to the defense then? I suppose we'll never know
 
I had zero issues with ginger before all of this. I do have issues when a person doesn't consent to participate in grabbing boobs publicly. She should of turned around and walked away. But no she didn't. She had to tell everyone some man who wasn't into it said no. She walked away, opened her social media, bragged she flashed anyway (back to him or not dont care.) pointed at him, and claimed she got a sexual thrill out of it.

If this was ANYBODY else I'd be just as critcial and pointing out the blatant sexist double standard. And it so happens to be ginger banks, advocate for sexworkers consent and other rights. She is rightfully so being called out for her behavior and we are not petty bitches, @Kalikitty. This valid criticism.
 
This topic is a huge amount of confusion for me because I believe women should be allowed to be topless but I also know that breasts are sexualized much more than men's chests. I know that the taboo nature makes it a huge fetish too. But I also believe violating people's consent is wrong and to me that includes showing them something sexual or violent/grotesque without their consent. I dunno how I feel about this to be honest.
Yes exactly same here.
 
I hate it when people respond by saying things like "That guy must be an idiot/gay." *eye roll* Omg, leave the guy alone. Damn.
 
To also add, I got an argument from one of her fans that she is so sexually sot after online, she was confused when a man wasn't into it. That's why she posted online. (Which she liked)


Which is probably the most shallow excuse I've ever heard. He said no, she should of carried on with her public lewdness shenanigans on twitter to with no mention of him since he wanted no part in. Her being an attractive female is completely irrlevant.
 
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She has CLEARLY stated she DID NOT flash him. She walked away.

THis whole thread is an example of how Cam Models create witch hunts. None of you actually care about the truth as you are ignoring it and running away with what you “think” happened and then just bashing Ginger.
I see this happen all the time in our community. People jumping in the bandwagon to bash a high profile model at ANY given opportunity based upon inaccurate information.
I see people in here who obviously already had issues with Ginger and just using this as another opportunity to bash her more.

Were any of you there??
Amber Cutie, I enjoy your site, but you’ve stooped to a new low here. You are perpetuating a false claim that Ginger inconsentingly flashed someone, which she has explauned she did not.

If you want to discuss this topic, that is one thing. To use it as an opportunity to just bash a Model who has been known to be controversial is making YOU a part of the problem in this Sex community.
Shame.

We are having a civil conversation about a topic that impacts a lot of people in this community. The discussion and reaction would have been the same, whether she had been a top cam model, top clip model, or a brand newbie no one has ever heard about. We have many similar discussions before, and often they are sparked by a specific incident, because that's how the world works. We talk about the big topics of that day. And public nudity is a big topic that will continue to appear, and we will continue to discuss as we each try to come to terms with our own personal boundaries, and what should be supported or encouraged, and what should not be. We've had this discussion about public library shows, we've had this discussion about outside shows in the park, videos that take place in public stores, videos that take place with unsuspecting people in the background. This is a conversation that has happened before and will happen again, as new situations spark new perspectives or angles. And I think it is an important one.

This discussion has been posted on the public forum, so ANYONE can chime in and post, whether they are directly involved in the situation or whether they just have views as an outsider. I don't see how it makes anyone petty to discuss such an important issue. No one has called her names. No one has bashed her. And I don't see any one here who didn't like her previously. This discussion would be happening regardless of who perpetuated it. People gave their views on the situation, based on her own words, posting links to Tweets that would give the entire context of the situation, so no one was posting based on hearsay. People gave their opinions based on the words that were used, and people voiced their discomfort and distrust because of the seemingly dismissive response based on whether nudity is sexual. None of that is bashing.

Even if she has clarified the situation, I don't think it changes the discussion. It wasn't really about HER. It was about whether it is okay for any model to do that. Because that is stuff we see pretty often, as public nudity is a big moneymaker. How okay is it to involve other people? Where is the line between sexual and non-sexual? Where is the line between public/note public? Is it okay to involve people directly? Is it okay to do sexual things under their noses and record it for money, so they are unwittingly drawn into sexual situations against their will? Or does their own obliviousness make it okay? And an important topic that is less about the sex-worker world, more about society at large: when the man turned down the sexual advances, why did he become the butt of so many jokes on the internet, when, if the genders had been switched, the situation would have turned out vastly different? Why can't men have personal boundaries without being shamed for it?

There is no bashing in having relevant discussions about topics that can involve so many members of the community (because, as I said, public nudity is a pretty common thing). Discussions are important to have, regardless of who is involved. Even if we like the people involved. Just because we like someone, it doesn't mean their actions should be ignored if we feel something majorly bad could have happened. Public nudity and consent is a HUUUUUUUUUGE grey area. Which is why these discussions are so necessary for our community to have. If it were simple black and white, there wouldn't be much to talk about. But public nudity can be complicated as hell, and as sex workers, it is important to discuss acceptable boundaries. It is important as humans to understand the importance of consent in all of its forms.

Honestly, I fail to see how such a big & important topic can be reduced to "petty", but what do I know. *shrugs*
 
It wasn't really about HER.
It really IS about the bigger picture, but I also think that since she's been such a loud voice as a SW advocate and attempting to destigmatize sex work, that people calling her out for the way she goes about it is PART of the discussion. So yeah, this could have been provoked by ANY cam girl, but due to her past, her posting about it is much more prominent and thus, she's the one who inspired and was quoted in this thread.



As seen in this tweet, she really is about making a positive change. But forcing nudity on people who may not be expecting or welcoming of it may not be the right path. It could also be said that drawing attention to the fact that you're a sex worker (she states in a tweet that she had been talking with the people involved about her adult-natured snapchat), and then making a public display of flashing your boobs, may only be further stigmatizing your peer group.

I think maybe a first step in equal "topless rights" (can we call it that? because it's cute lol) is making it more normal for women to be topless in non-sexual/non-flirty/non-provocative environments first. And steps have been made in that direction, as we've noted in previous posts in the thread. Some states do have laws that make it OK.

I don't think it's too farfetched to say that flashing your boobs in a crowd that was not asked if they wanted to see it is comparable to a dude sending his wiener pics to people that were not asked if they wanted to see it. While I agree that boobies are much less harmless than a dick (one IS a sexual organ, one is not) both are seen by a vast majority as sexual and provocative.
 
I do think in the discussion of ginger the discussion is a bit different. I like Ginger, I don’t always agree with her or what she does but you don’t have to in order to like someone. She is pretty kind and very friendly to most people.
HOWEVER. She has also worked very hard to get herself to a place of prominence where she is often seen as a rep for our entire industry and community, through her advocacy work. This puts everything she does that is illegal/problematic and possible damaging to the cam community as a whole on a whole other level of importance.

If she wants to represent us in a more main stream way, as she seems to do, she should be careful not to be condemning us all with her actions at the same time.
 
HOWEVER. She has also worked very hard to get herself to a place of prominence where she is often seen as a rep for our entire industry and community, through her advocacy work. This puts everything she does that is illegal/problematic and possible damaging to the cam community as a whole on a whole other level of importance.

If she wants to represent us in a more main stream way, as she seems to do, she should be careful not to be condemning us all with her actions at the same time.

Isn't this part of the reason she stepped down from the advocasy group she was in after the incident with her and Jenny?
 
Isn't this part of the reason she stepped down from the advocasy group she was in after the incident with her and Jenny?
I don’t know
 
I don't think it's too farfetched to say that flashing your boobs in a crowd that was not asked if they wanted to see it is comparable to a dude sending his wiener pics to people that were not asked if they wanted to see it. While I agree that boobies are much less harmless than a dick (one IS a sexual organ, one is not) both are seen by a vast majority as sexual and provocative.

Hand, foot, butt, clavucle. My opinion would still stay the same. He didn't want to touch you, respect the no and move on. Don't make it a thing, accept the rejection and go on with you merry life.
 
Just the other night I had a dude grab my leg after I told him no. That not only triggered my PTSD from my sexual assault, but resulted in me telling my boyfriend that I had just been sexually harassed by some dude who thought he could touch me after I told him no. The body part he was touching was literally no factor in the situation. I don't think the body part matters in the slightest. The guy told you no. End of story.

And we weren't even really talking about Ginger until you brought her up, @Kalikitty. You're the one trying to create drama where none exists.
 
And we weren't even really talking about Ginger until you brought her up, @Kalikitty. You're the one trying to create drama where none exists.

I did say she was being a gross hypocrite. So can understand why Kali thought we were bashing... I was describing how I precieved her behavior.
 
Given the setting there is much to unpack in the situation. I don't know how I would react in a similar situation one on one. I say this as more of a what would I do if I'm in bar/club and a solo female approached me in a manner like Ginger did this guy. I can't say if I would say yes or no to what she asked. I think if I said no, then my response should be respected. I can also expect if I'm out with my boys especially when we're younger I would get some shit if I said no.Granted that is going to be more about how "hot" they perceive said female is versus just my being non-compliant.

Now, and this is from personal experiences. I've been more playful in these type of situations if say I'm encountered by more than one female. Such as a bachelorette party/ "woo" girl party (for the How I Met Your Mother crowd). Then I'm more apt to play along with what is being asked or with what they are wanting to do.

*Edit*

Thoughts on flashing/public stuff -

I don't think I've ever been personally offended by "people" flashing out in public. And, you have times like Mardi Gras/Fat Tuesday and spring break where this stuff is just kind of expected.

People having sex/masturbating in public places (like libraries and parks/etc.) is concerning for those who many inexplicably walk in on it. Or in some cases like a library you know come in contact with something that is "soiled" for lack of phrasing.

Have I watched public stuff models/porn stars/clip performers put out? Yes. Do I request people to do it? No.
 
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It looks like she has clarified the situation AFTER people have been bugging her about it.



I was using her tweets yesterday as an example of a topic that comes up frequently. My wording and phrasing doesn't make her sound like a monster, but if you really think this is a new low I can't help you. [Edit to add: It has been brought to my attention that you have taken your anger at ACF to a thread of subtweets calling us names. Which I think is far worse than posts in this thread. If you really feel that all of us here are so terrible, I will be glad to deactivate your account for you.]

She posted this herself, publicly, and it is being discussed on social media platforms including ACF.

Whether she did it in his face, or a few feet away, the discussion of public flashing and the stigmas it can perpetuate, as well as the difference when men/women do it is a very valid discussion to have.


I posted on MY Twitter NOT just about ACF but our community in general. Yes, it is how I feel. Now you are threatening to delete my acct for posting MY opinion on a completely separate forum.
Did ANY of you clarify with her? Message her before starting all of this drama? Have ANY of you bothered to apologize publicly to her?
Go ahead and silence me in here if you feel you can’t stand someone calling you all out. Yes I use strong language. I’ve seen this over and over the past years I’ve been camming. I’m sick of seeing this community jump on the bandwagon to bash top models without proof, willfully misunderstanding tweets and digging any possible negative connotation they can just to cause chaos.
WE are our own worst enemies in this community.
There isn’t unity. There is whiplash public bashing just like what happened here.
Note I was polite but to the point on this forum. But I wouldn’t be surprised after seeing this that you feel the need to threaten me by closing my acct.

I’m not asking it to be closed as this site has useful tools for new models.
I’m stating my opinion.
 
Also for all of you in here thinking I’m talking about YOU when I say petty bitches. That is YOUR problem. Not mine. I won’t apologize because we ALL know there are in this community and obviously I was speaking about the models who bashed her. I’m not going to sit here and post each and every one to defend myself. If you didn’t bash her and you then sit there and say I’m talking about you, thanks again for proving my point that you will WILLFULLY misconstrue a statement just to cause drama. It says more about how you feel about yourself than how I feel about you, which honestly is most likely nothing as I don’t know you.
Let me repeat for the back of the class..I was speaking about models who jump on this witch hunt bandwagon.
And just because it happens in other communities as one person pointed out, does not mean it is ok for us to as well. We are adult women in a VERY difficult field and we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard instead of perpetuating the female backstabbing stereotype given to us.

If you have any issues with what I said feel free to IM me on Twitter.
 
Also for all of you in here thinking I’m talking about YOU when I say petty bitches. That is YOUR problem. Not mine. I won’t apologize because we ALL know there are in this community and obviously I was speaking about the models who bashed her. I’m not going to sit here and post each and every one to defend myself. If you didn’t bash her and you then sit there and say I’m talking about you, thanks again for proving my point that you will WILLFULLY misconstrue a statement just to cause drama. It says more about how you feel about yourself than how I feel about you, which honestly is most likely nothing as I don’t know you.
Let me repeat for the back of the class..I was speaking about models who jump on this witch hunt bandwagon.
And just because it happens in other communities as one person pointed out, does not mean it is ok for us to as well. We are adult women in a VERY difficult field and we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard instead of perpetuating the female backstabbing stereotype given to us.

If you have any issues with what I said feel free to IM me on Twitter.

NO ONE IS BASHING HER.
NO ONE IS BASHING HER.
NO ONE IS BASHING HER.
NO ONE IS BASHING HER.
NO ONE IS BASHING HER.
NO ONE IS BASHING HER.

The only one miscontruding and being dramatic is you. Obviously you feel she is being attacked and people are trying to come for her. NO ONE HERE IS DOING THAT. We are simply having a discussion how we don't approve of her behavior and reasons why. Everyone is susceptible for receiving criticism on their behavior. Stop being a mean girl and understand this is a conversation about RESPECTING PERSONAL BOUNDARIES AND CONSENT ON SEXUAL SITUATIONS.

There is no room on this forum for female back stabbing and tearing down other females. No one here tolerates that bullshit.
 
we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard instead of perpetuating the female backstabbing stereotype given to us.
Tbh, no. We aren’t obligated to hold hands and sing campfire songs just because we all show our boobs online. It is in our best collective interest to distance ourselves from problematic shit like forcing our nudity on unsuspecting people. If that’s not the case here, great, but clearly it was brought up because people were uncomfortable with it, and that discussion shouldn’t be squandered in the name of unity.

I don’t give a fuck if idiots think all women, or all camgirls, are backstabbing bitches. People who think that are dumb and should meet more women. Not sure how posting publicly, using our camnames, could be backstabbing anyways. But it’s not our responsibility to be quiet about certain topics because some hypothetical people will see it as catty.

And - we aren’t a monolith. We can, and should, have different opinions. I hate hate haaaaaate the idea that sex workers can’t have different experiences/ideas/etc because we might counter each other. We don’t have to present a unified front on things we disagree on.
 
We are adult women in a VERY difficult field and we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard instead of perpetuating the female backstabbing stereotype given to us.

Also not every sex worker is female (I'm not), and that in and of itself is perpetuating a stereotype.

We aren't a goddamn monolith.
 
Also for all of you in here thinking I’m talking about YOU when I say petty bitches. That is YOUR problem. Not mine. I won’t apologize because we ALL know there are in this community and obviously I was speaking about the models who bashed her. I’m not going to sit here and post each and every one to defend myself. If you didn’t bash her and you then sit there and say I’m talking about you, thanks again for proving my point that you will WILLFULLY misconstrue a statement just to cause drama. It says more about how you feel about yourself than how I feel about you, which honestly is most likely nothing as I don’t know you.
Let me repeat for the back of the class..I was speaking about models who jump on this witch hunt bandwagon.
And just because it happens in other communities as one person pointed out, does not mean it is ok for us to as well. We are adult women in a VERY difficult field and we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard instead of perpetuating the female backstabbing stereotype given to us.

If you have any issues with what I said feel free to IM me on Twitter.

"We are adult women in a VERY difficult field and we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard" Isn't that what this topic is about though? Holding people to a higher standard & questioning things?

I think oftentimes people misjudge a critical discussion for a 'witch hunt'. There's nothing wrong with a healthy discussion. Nothing wrong with not seeing things in the same light. We can all coexist together with different views without throwing shade. At least, that's how it should be. We only grow from looking critically at ourselves, and feedback (different viewpoints) from others can be a big eye-opener.

I for one think that (regardless of the person behind the tweet) this discussion definitely has merit.

On that note.. Like some other posts earlier on in this thread: I have mixed feelings about public topless nudity vs sexual acts involving nude breasts/flashes. Consent is key for me.
What's interesting though with the 'public nudity taboo' is that the whole point of that is that there's no consent. People (at least that's what I feel is the core of that) get off on the fact that the person can get caught etc. However, ethically speaking (IMO) those vids should be faked & be in a controlled environment where consent is a factor. Or be made in a situation where there's complete control & there's no chance of actually getting caught.
 
ps. it is your fault if we perceived you were being shady and talking about us. you posted here then posted on twitter. you can see how that was sus? you could of apologized and explained it was other people, but you reacted um, differently. thats fine.

it doesn't take much effort to be courteous and empathic to other people who maybe hurt. ironically its kinda the theme of this thread. i'm sorry if we caused you any distress and ginger too. these are very harmful actions. most of us will understand if she didn't intend to harm, but it contributes to a bad stereotype. if a male doesn't act on a female sexual advance, he is faulted. this is harmful because men are less likely to report sex crimes on female perpetrators. i'm told she spoke out against the guys who were, and i'm very glad she did. the argument however, he didn't know and her back was turned doesn't make that any better in my opinion. he said no, and she should of went along with whatever she was doing and not include him. he was also in the same room. most of us been to bars right. they aren't normally the roomiest of places.

also brings up other people around. did she ask them if it was okay to flash her boobs? probably not. maybe a handful of guys. she intended to do it for sexual gratification. i can give two shits if it was all for a hustle and she was overembelishing to drive up snapchat sales. we are all hustlers bbs. we know the game. her intentions were to do it for some sexual nature to whomever.

if this was about her shirt being see-through or goig topless, all power to her! that is me every day. i don't wear bras. i take off my shirt and walk around topless when i get too hot. majority of pro-nudity people just get naked. they don't be a showman about it. i don't mean that in any disrespect. i've flashed my nips before to get a rise. it's how i became a cammodel! but i've learned has to be safe places for that and not everyone wants to be exposed to that behavior. it makes them uncomfortable.

that's why i believe her flashing her tits after a guy said no and telling her large social media following she was rejected was a bad move and could be considered sexual harassment.
 
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Now you are threatening to delete my acct for posting MY opinion on a completely separate forum.

Amber wasn't threatening anything, her comment about deactivating your account here wasn't even menacing:

If you really feel that all of us here are so terrible, I will be glad to deactivate your account for you.]

Where's the threat? She's just offering to deactivate your account if you don't want to remain here.
 
Whether the flash happened she used him in his asking to be left alone to generate more buzz or more compliments or more money for herself. That is gross. Dude that doesn't want to look at your tits probably doesn't want to continue hearing about them or being paired with them ideologically or thrown onto Twitter. Some people's lives can be hurt by even a little nonsense. I have no problem with my husband staring into tits if they're offered and he's respectful. Not even a huge fan of the man right now. But, if I was this dude's wife, hoo boy. This is something else. I wonder how the bar feels about her using a patron this way? I'd not be happy with that either.
 
The people that have spoken about intent being the underlying differentiator hit the nail on the head in my opinion. If I had a kid and he saw a mother nursing in public I'd have no issue with it. If he saw a woman jumping up and down with her shirt off for the clear sake of simply showing them to people, I would respond differently. The difference being intent.

I also think as a supposed advocate (pick the key word there and you'll understand how much I buy into the sincerity of that in this case), she needs to be much more aware and careful in certain situations. You can't rise to the level of visibility that she has tried to reach and not know this. Fair or unfair, she has to be more careful, because she's always going to be a favorite target. Anyone looking to attack models, sexual workers, or anything along those lines is going to look for the person on the highest horse they can find to knock off, and poor wording and bad decisions just make for easy ammo for them.
 
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