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The Pros and Cons of Whales

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Feb 1, 2011
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As I mentioned in another thread, my background is in the gaming industry (computer/video games, not gambling). My company makes games that use what is called the "F2P" or "Free To Play", or "Free to Play/microtransaction" model. It has some similarities to MFC's token economy.

In my industry (and many others, so I am assuming yours also), whales are customers who spend significantly more money than the average customer. Whether you all use this term, I am referring to the people who drop thousands of tokens per month, often in large amounts (1000, 5000, 10000, etc.).

Most of the popular girls seem to have a couple of whales, and they definitely make their presence felt. Usually they are cheered on wildly by the other members, and of course they always get a big reaction from the models. I have some theories on the way they affect a model's community - both positive and negative. I'll hold off on expressing those theories until others have had a chance to post. I don't want to bias the discussion.

Ok, preamble out of the way. Onto the questions:

1) What positive effects do you think whales have on the rest of your members/viewers?

2) What negative effects do you think they have?

3) Do you actively do anything to accentuate the positive effects, and minimize the negative effects?

4) Putting aside the direct financial gain of the whales themselves, do you think they have an overall positive or negative effect on the token income you receive from other members/viewers/fans/customers?


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To get the ball rolling, I'll go ahead and answer these questions from the point of view of my company, just for the sake of comparison.

1) Whales tend to be heavily invested in the success of the game. As a result, they recruit new players, tend to be more helpful of new players, and generally have a positive effect on player retention as a result.

2) Some whales have an incredible sense of entitlement. They expect (or demand) special treatment, and often expect us to bend rules or violate our own policies for their benefit. This is particularly troublesome when we have to adjudicate a Player vs. Player conflict, and the whale expects their financial support of the game to be factored in. As a business operator, we try to be completely unbiased, but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't have SOME effect. In a pure "he said/she said" situation, whose side are we going to take? The guy who pays nothing, or very little? Or the guy who spends thousands of dollars a year on our products?

3) We try to accentuate the positive by giving whales more feedback and interaction from staff. We try to make sure they know that their voice is heard, and that they have a fast track to have problems resolved or their opinions or ideas listened to. Most importantly, we try to make sure they are getting GOOD VALUE for the money they are spending, so they never (or rarely) have regrets or buyer's remorse.

We try to minimize the negative by making it as close to impossible as we can for players to know how much another player has spent on the game. We also minimize the negatives by working hard to design good, iron clad policies and then stick to them.

4) For us, whales are definitely an overall positive. They are the ultra-loyal customers that help keep a player base together. The way most of them proselytise for the game is invaluable.

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Anyway, I look forward to reading your opinions and experiences.
 
I clicked the topic expecting a convo about whales...like NatGeo....hmmm, seeing as I have no info nor the token count to say I have come in contact with the said "whales" your are refering to...I shall stalk away to another topic. *Mrrrorooooooooowwwwwnnnnn* (aka-whale noises)
 

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SirLes said:
Whale tokens for bewbs,

Oooh, and might I object to being referred to as a whale, I much prefer punter or user.

Its a complimentary term, not derogatory.
 
well, smaller tips get less noticed, or unnoticed altogether when big tips start coming in around the same time as the smaller tips. I'm sure someone's gonna get defensive about this and deny it, but we all know its true, its hard not to be blown away by a big tip.

So I guess no recognition for the little guy is a con.


However pro's are obvious I mean, who doesn't wanna see their favorite model make a big tip?
 
2) Some whales have an incredible sense of entitlement. They expect (or demand) special treatment, and often expect us to bend rules or violate our own policies for their benefit.

There is one guy who goes around thinking he's better than everyone else and deserves special treatment because he's occasionally tipped a couple of models huge amounts. He basically plays mind games and tries to get models to jump through his stupid hoops for his own amusement.
 
Bocefish said:
2) Some whales have an incredible sense of entitlement. They expect (or demand) special treatment, and often expect us to bend rules or violate our own policies for their benefit.

There is one guy who goes around thinking he's better than everyone else and deserves special treatment because he's occasionally tipped a couple of models huge amounts. He basically plays mind games and tries to get models to jump through his stupid hoops for his own amusement.
:think:
 
AmberCutie said:
Bocefish said:
2) Some whales have an incredible sense of entitlement. They expect (or demand) special treatment, and often expect us to bend rules or violate our own policies for their benefit.

There is one guy who goes around thinking he's better than everyone else and deserves special treatment because he's occasionally tipped a couple of models huge amounts. He basically plays mind games and tries to get models to jump through his stupid hoops for his own amusement.
:think:
:think:

Well gang, looks like we have ourselves a mystery to solve.
 
The only real problem with whales is that I'm not one of them. :violin:

Whales give models tokens. That's a Good Thing(TM). They get attention from models, but why wouldn't they? Big customers, even customers who are merely potentially big, get a lot of attention in any domain. Are Walmart buyers' jokes funnier than those of a buyer for an independent retail store? No they are not, but you might think they were judging by how sales reps laugh.

Whales are great while they are around, but they don't always stay, at least not for long. Most models know that they can go from having an amazing night or week or month to one that's not so amazing, simply depending on when the whales roll in and out. They can smooth things out a little by staying true to themselves and continuing to treat their regulars the same no matter what, even as they give the whales that little extra bit of attention.

Yeah, it's possible that some non-whales can get their noses out of joint, but they have to realize that MFC is a place of business, first and foremost, or they'll be bouncing from one disappointment to the next.
 
Whales definitely deserve more attention. There's no doubt about that. As I said, we do it in my business, and in every industry I am aware of.

The challenge is doing it in a way that doesn't turn off your other customers.

I was hoping more models would respond, since the way they deal with this challenge is something that I imagine would be really interesting. The sense of entitlement issue seems like it would an even bigger issue here than for computer games, due to the increased apparent "intimacy" of the relationship.
 
Keltaric said:
I was hoping more models would respond,

For best results in the future, you should really post this type of thing in the "Ask-a-Model!" section, then.
 
Most of the models on this forum are a bit skeptical of newcomers (nature of the business), I suggest going to the introduce yourself thread and posting about yourself, and stick around a bit, get to know everyone a little bit before posting very long specific questions.

We have had a lot of trolls in this business and are a bit protective of the happy forum community Amber has created here. So don't take it personally, just lurk MOAR :-D
 
BadAssCurves said:
Most of the models on this forum are a bit skeptical of newcomers (nature of the business), I suggest going to the introduce yourself thread and posting about yourself, and stick around a bit, get to know everyone a little bit before posting very long specific questions.

We have had a lot of trolls in this business and are a bit protective of the happy forum community Amber has created here. So don't take it personally, just lurk MOAR :-D

Gotcha. The only reason I didn't post in the intro thread is that in my experience such threads on most forums get kinda ignored. Its cool to know that's not the case here.

As for lurking, I guess I'm just a naturally very talkative person. In my work, I'm "the boss" so I guess I can't help but shoot off my opinions.

I'm sorry to hear that there are trolls and/or people with a negative purpose in mind. I should have been more mindful of that considering the nature of the business. I'm sorry if my questions seemed weird. I just find business model and the community mechanics interesting, as good ideas come from everywhere.
 
Yes on any other forum you would be getting a different reaction. Lurking and patience is important here. I lurked forever before I posted anything and I am a model!

Just keep at it and join in other places, you will be fine.
 
Keltaric said:
As for lurking, I guess I'm just a naturally very talkative person. In my work, I'm "the boss" so I guess I can't help but shoot off my opinions.
Damn you! I now have "Like a Boss" competing with the line from Love Shack where he mentions his Chrysler is as big as a whale fighting in my head thanks to this thread.
 
SAVE THE WHALES!
Collect the whole set!



But seriously... I don't have any whales... Hell, I don't have any big fish.
However, knowing my regulars like I do... I think they'd be very proud to see me do well but they also know me well enough to realize that I view them all as important, integral pieces of my show! I have members that don't or can't tip and I'm okay with that! Hell, one of my members (still trying to figure out who...) even gifted a basic his own premium account just so he could participate in the chat...
Getting down to the core of your question:
The pros: Flattery. Cam score. Income. Increase in member traffic (higher room count). Active chat. Other members don't feel they have to carry the countdown.
The cons: Some members may feel a twinge of jealousy/guilt because they are not able to tip as handsomely. May also keep other members from tipping and hoard their tokens for another time or model... "Why spend my 200 tokens tonight when this guy is gonna spend his thousands?"

Most of my guys know they don't need tokens to hang out. I think most of them also know that I will not break rules or give preferential treatment in chat to one member or another based on their tips. Sure, I may "comp" a gallery or vid or e-mail them some sexy pics because they have dropped some tokens in chat but I view that as a courtesy (which really isn't... they are just getting something they didn't ask for but have essentially paid for... "Hey, Mister! You spent 1000 tokens and didn't ask for anything... I'm gonna give you 1000 tokens worth of vids or pics!") But in chat... they get the same kisses and squeals as the 10 token tippers! Sure, they might get the :shock: :eek: :dance: reaction from a big tip, I think 1200 is my highest and I nearly peed. But all in all, I'm an equal opportunity cam-whore! ;)
 

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I think I just figured out why you're coming up against some harsh tones on here Keltaric. You are not "the boss" on these forums but your tone says otherwise. We are all equal on this forum but you clearly continue to talk down to people. You keep quoting other people in all your posts like you expect an explanation. You do not run this place so stop talking like it. Yeah, I bet you'll have a response to this too but seeing as how you are not "my boss" I don't have to reply. God you irritate me.
 
ScarlettLeigh said:
You are not "the boss" on these forums but your tone says otherwise. We are all equal on this forum but you clearly continue to talk down to people.

I'm really sorry you feel that way. I certainly haven't felt like I was talking down to anyone. In fact, quite the opposite, since I am clearly asking questions in an attempt to benefit from the superior knowledge of others. I'd think that makes it pretty clear I am not talking down to anyone.

ScarlettLeigh said:
You keep quoting other people in all your posts like you expect an explanation.

Sincere question: do you participate in many forums besides this one?

In almost every forum I have participated in since 1991 (started with BBSes and usenet... and yeah, I'm kinda old), quoting people is considered polite and just good for organization. I'm sorry that my quoting of people makes you think I am "expecting an explanation." Its just a very common practice on most forums.

ScarlettLeigh said:
You do not run this place so stop talking like it.

Can you please give me an example of where I acted like I ran the place?


ScarlettLeigh said:
Yeah, I bet you'll have a response to this too but seeing as how you are not "my boss" I don't have to reply. God you irritate me.

Of course I'll have a reply. This is a DISCUSSION forum after all, right?

I'm sorry I irritate you. That's not my intent. Apparently no amount of explaining or apologizing is going to ameliorate your irritation.
 
JoleneJolene said:
The cons:

...

May also keep other members from tipping and hoard their tokens for another time or model... "Why spend my 200 tokens tonight when this guy is gonna spend his thousands?"

I often wonder about that. I've seen a few models go out of their way to make it clear to their room that every tip matters to them, even the 10s and such, and from what I have seen that seems to pay dividends. When a few minutes pass after a huge tip, the smaller ones start up again. But in rooms where I haven't seen models make such comments, the big tips seem to have a huge "chilling effect" on other people tipping.
 
THIS GUY, this guy is who you sound like. Do you understand why people are getting a tad irate with you now?
 
Jebbaz said:
THIS GUY, this guy is who you sound like. Do you understand why people are getting a tad irate with you now?

Other than making yourself feel cool as you show off to the others, is there a productive purpose behind your comment?

Or do you just get a sick thrill from brazen, unprovoked intolerance?

I already apologized multiple times for not lurking more before starting topics. I PMed Amber with information to prove I am who I said I was, and not someone with an ulterior motive for starting the topics I started. What more do you want from me? Seriously.
 
:lol: No, that was pretty much to make myself and everyone else who reads it laugh, because I'm not wrong. That guy is exactly who you sound like.
 
Jebbaz said:
:lol: No, that was pretty much to make myself and everyone else who reads it laugh, because I'm not wrong. That guy is exactly who you sound like.

And if I'm the bad guy, how come you and others are the ones making personal attacks that are completely uncalled for?

Think on that one, friend.
 
EDIT: actually thats probably gonna piss Amber off, so I remove.

Never mind this post, have a nice night Office Space boss guy :mrgreen:
 
Just to throw my 2c in Kel... I believe i have one "whale". I've had several come and go. There is no special "Trick" to keep them around. Sometimes, i have premiums that tip a lot one month, and then fall back on other months. I dont expect huge tips..ever. Im happy with even 1 token. I've seen many models who are like "Seriously? One token?" but thats .5c, or .8c more than I didnt have right? Anyways...I do treat my one "whale" different..On new years eve at 12:00am his time i called him for the first time ever. He was VERY excited to hear from me. I dont know what else to say on this topic...But I do have an issue with many members who once tipped but i cant get anymore tokens from them. Of course im not going to sit and beg either. That's just rude and makes you sound like a "token whore"
 
Cassana said:
Anyways...I do treat my one "whale" different..On new years eve at 12:00am his time i called him for the first time ever. He was VERY excited to hear from me.

That's awesome. And it avoids any problems of non-whales feeling jealous, since they'd never know.

Cassana said:
But I do have an issue with many members who once tipped but i cant get anymore tokens from them. Of course im not going to sit and beg either. That's just rude and makes you sound like a "token whore"

That has to be a huge challenge. Balancing the appreciation of past tips, with the need for constant tips, and the need to remind people who often just need that gentle nudge.

Ugh. That's tough. :(
 
I too lack whales and big fish, but I generally have guys that hang out, either with small tips or no tips at all. When I get guys with tokens, if they want my undivided attention, then that is what privates are for. I have carried on convo in pvt.

As for your tone, yea Jebbaz is kinda right with the pic. No offense, but you do come off as an office exec asking his research team for better results. That doesn't mean that you need to keep getting pushed or that you need to keep apologizing. I find that esp on this forum, we tend to be very face value. We spit things the way we see them, even if the way we see it is a little skewed. Also, there are international viewers here that can and do take "American" English as a little snooty or crude, so don't get too hurt if someone says anything. Tis the Forum.
 
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