The Ethics of Piracy - Stoya

[JerryBoBerry]

Interesting article she wrote. Little bit of history of the porn industry, why people don't want to pay for porn on the web, and how tube sites differ from torrents.

 

[BobbyB]

Interesting topic, but in my view it boils down to if there is a chance to get stuff you want for free or paying for it, most people go for the
free options and come up with some excuses so that they don't feel bad about it....

In regards to camming I think the amazing thing is that camming is about the live experience and you cannot pirate a live experience.
I was looking at some rooms on MFC and I noticed that about 1 % of the viewers tip, OK I never stayed for longer just a kind of snap shot, easy to establish because MFC shows the line between tippers and non tippers.
My guess is that the regular tippers mostly pay for the "girlfriend experience" and the interaction with a model of their choice.
From this angle pirated shows could have an advertising effect bringing in new potential regulars who kind of pay later with tips for the pirared show they viewed earlier on a Tubesite.

Of course all speculation here....

 

[Boog]

The last bit of info about Mindgeek/Manwin suing their downloaders confused me until I went and looked up all the non-tube sites Mindgeek owned (Brazzers, DigitalPlayground, RK, Twistys, Mofos, etc; a lot of the big guns in porn who I associate with suing porn downloaders).

Blew my mind and would finally explain how these premium sites are now (past few years) "fine" with hosting these 8min clips on tube sites rather than flagging every video possible for takedown. And then as a pornstar that also means you'd have to be careful about badmouthing the tube sites because the premium site you are shooting for is probably owned by the same company that owns said tube site.

Sorry, I need to sit down for a moment....

 

[JerryBoBerry]

The last bit of info about Mindgeek/Manwin suing their downloaders confused me until I went and looked up all the non-tube sites Mindgeek owned (Brazzers, DigitalPlayground, RK, Twistys, Mofos, etc; a lot of the big guns in porn who I associate with suing porn downloaders).

Blew my mind and would finally explain how these premium sites are now (past few years) "fine" with hosting these 8min clips on tube sites rather than flagging every video possible for takedown. And then as a pornstar that also means you'd have to be careful about badmouthing the tube sites because the premium site you are shooting for is probably owned by the same company that owns said tube site.

Sorry, I need to sit down for a moment....

Yeah, once you realize the real owners behind everything and what's truly happening, it's kind of an eye opener.

 

[moonstompers]

I rarely pirate porn and can't remember really using porn tube sites. I've seen people say torrents are unsafe but I've never had any problems in over a decade. I use torrent sites when no other options are available or when I want to preview a product. Can't say I feel bad on the rare occasions I pirate mainstream porn. Random guy that owns mydirtymaid or whatever.com can eat shit for all I'm concerned. Performers are already paid, peanuts in comparison regardless of what is made by the site so I ain't losing sleep over pirating a porn scene every so often. I prefer that the money I spend on adult entertainment go to strippers and camgirls. They at least see a percentage of what I'm spending.

Most porn I download is out of curiousity anyway and not something I even end up enjoying. I'll check out the top adult torrents to see what is popular and see some weird sounding Japanese movies and have to check it out. A few examples

EBOD-519 E-BODY Fan Thanksgiving To Amateur Home The Delivery Suddenly Brown Busty Body A Naked NAOMI Squeeze An Immediate Semen With Shaved Or ? This Span Bae ? Scan!

EYAN-064 Plump Tits, Seems To Be Soft Ass Clean And Proud Mom Was Watching For Me Is Silently Spree Committed To The Thugs Us Momose TomoRina

KIL-113 Popularity Explosion In Shibuya! ! When He Called The Gal Professional Wash Body Deriheru Miss, "This At Decide Uzes", Aphrodisiac Mixed In His Own Gal Lotion!Iki Go Mad In Gangimari SEX To Raw Chi ? Po Slurp! !

SW-412 Because Mom Of Woman Prime Does Unbearable Patience To Son Classmate Of Genki Ji ? Port Of! "Aunt Was Exhausted Sucking Many Times Young Seminal Juice Chance You Have Not Seen In The Adult Tageru To Join ? "son.

FAA-103 Corporate Dropout And Truly Highest Nearby Married Once Opened A Fitness Gym At Home Earnestly Do It Well Luck Came With (*'? `*)

Will most likely exceed the amount of weird that I'm looking for but you never know.

 

[paige_orion]

Can't say I feel bad on the rare occasions I pirate mainstream porn. Random guy that owns mydirtymaid or whatever.com can eat shit for all I'm concerned. Performers are already paid, peanuts in comparison regardless of what is made by the site so I ain't losing sleep over pirating a porn scene every so often. I prefer that the money I spend on adult entertainment go to strippers and camgirls. They at least see a percentage of what I'm spending.

While I understand the initial knee-jerk reaction to say that mainstream companies aren't hurt by a stolen scene, and the girls aren't hurt either... It really is all interconnected. Just because girls have already been paid, it does not mean that they will not be damaged by the piracy of their scene. If everyone downloaded just one scene for free - that is a big chunk of money those companies are missing out on. You think you're hurting Random Owner Guy - but what about the others? The people who work for him? The camera guys, the mic and light operators, the production teams, the IT team, the marketing gurus... When a company starts missing out on a chunk of money - guess who feels the blow? That's when jobs get let go, that's when production values plummet. And those girls you enjoy watching? They suddenly can't get hired as often because that company cannot afford it. So they might leave the industry all together in searching of something a little more stable.

But just say, for one second, that everyone decides to pay for their porn. To be true fans. To believe that the teams of people who work so hard to supply these videos (whether you indulge in them for curiosity or for your own pleasure).... What does that mean? Bigger budgets. Better films. The girls and guys that you like can be hired in to do even MORE projects. Teams get bigger - get better. They can explore more things. Jobs continue to thrive because they can afford to bring in new personnel. The models you adore might have already been paid - but I promise, everyone sees the results of the percentage you spend - not just Random Guy company owner.

While I always encourage people to support those of use who produce and create our own smut freelance style - assuming that piracy of mainstream titles is okay and isn't damaging anyone... That's a dangerous mentality. That spreads. One person feels it's okay to steal mainstream titles, and then another, and then another - until there are thousands of films being pirated and millions of dollars being lost. And then that mentality shifts to affect those who DON'T work for the mainstream companies. I have seen firsthand people get so used to their entitled feelings - used to getting their mainstream pleasure for free, that they don't bat an eye about stealing from others. It's a slippery slope.

I used to think that torrenting occasionally was okay - until I stepped into this industry. Until I saw firsthand how devastating the effects are. I have seen a lot of promising people quit. People have committed suicide. Others gone bankrupt. As a clip girl, I have watched personally as many of my peers severely reduce their production - what's the point in putting out twice as many videos when they will just get stolen? Even my income has been affected. Everyone gets hurt. I learned that lesson. Now I buy everything. Whether it is porn or movies or music. If I can't afford it - I don't buy it. I am not entitled to steal from others who worked hard to produce something, just because I want it. Whether it is a mainstream video or a freelance project - everyone deserves to be paid for the work that they do.

 

[Guy]

Why is adult industry affected a lot more by piracy than the music industry?

 

[BlairLuxe]

Why is adult industry affected a lot more by piracy than the music industry?

We don't have concerts

 

[Fatquack]

The music industry is a lot bigger than the porn business and consist of a few megacompanies.
Porn is for the most part made up of independent contractors (basically all talent) and small mom and pop outfits.

 

[moonstompers]

I used to think that torrenting occasionally was okay - until I stepped into this industry. Until I saw firsthand how devastating the effects are. I have seen a lot of promising people quit. People have committed suicide. Others gone bankrupt. As a clip girl

Using torrents occasionally, or daily if you are a sports fan and can't watch any other way, is fine in my opinion and some artists often encourage it. I'll take your word on the rest but I don't think me downloading a scene every so often is causing people to go bankrupt or commit suicide.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Using torrents occasionally, or daily if you are a sports fan and can't watch any other way, is fine in my opinion and some artists often encourage it. I'll take your word on the rest but I don't think me downloading a scene every so often is causing people to go bankrupt or commit suicide.

But let's not pretend it's ethical or non damaging in some way. Millions of people just like you add up to one really big problem.

 

[Guy]

Those tube sites have caused a lot of layoffs.

 

[AmberCutie]

Those tube sites have caused a lot of layoffs.

Source?

 

[JustWantToSeeThePictures]

It seems that the whole thing is being argued from a utilitarian perspective, and Stoya takes the position that if you weren't going to pay for something anyway, then torrenting isn't hurting anybody; however, I think it's hard to say, in a world where you don't have to pay for much in the way of entertainment, what you really would and would not have paid for.

The danger of rationalizing unethical behavior is one of the reasons I favor deontological ethics. You don't butt in line. You don't take for free what you are meant to pay for.

There is also some discussion from the virtue perspective, which seems to take the position that piracy is the manifestation of a sense of selfish entitlement, which I think has some strength to it.

Also, I think it should be pointed out that a similar thing is actually happening in the music industry. Many people listen to music through streaming services, which get their revenue from advertisements, and do not have a reputation for fairly compensating artists. The pornography industry is different, however, since the company that owns most of the streaming sites also owns several major production studios.

 

[Guy]

Source?

Nate Glass stated that in an interview.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Those tube sites have caused a lot of layoffs.

Source?

Nate Glass stated that in an interview.

The guy who has a DMCA business relying on everyone thinking that.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Mickey Mod just tweeted about the kink layoffs the other day.

 

[Sevrin]

Also, I think it should be pointed out that a similar thing is actually happening in the music industry. Many people listen to music through streaming services, which get their revenue from advertisements, and do not have a reputation for fairly compensating artists. The pornography industry is different, however, since the company that owns most of the streaming sites also owns several major production studios.

As has already been mentioned, though, musicians can also earn money through concerts. It's one of the reason ticket prices are so high. Back in the day when I bought my music on vinyl, you could get good tickets to see a top act for the price of 2 albums, and often less. Scalpers existed, but of course you didn't have to compete against people buying tickets online for profit or bots, either. What's the equivalent for cam models or porn stars? Hooking?

 

[mynameisbob84]

As has already been mentioned, though, musicians can also earn money through concerts. It's one of the reason ticket prices are so high. Back in the day when I bought my music on vinyl, you could get good tickets to see a top act for the price of 2 albums, and often less. Scalpers existed, but of course you didn't have to compete against people buying tickets online for profit or bots, either. What's the equivalent for cam models or porn stars? Hooking?

Devil's Advocate: You could argue that like musicians, models also have more than one revenue stream available to them - in their cam room alone they can expect to make money not just from live shows and pre-recorded video sales, but also from pic sets, raffle ticket sales, worn panties, friend adds, song requests, flashes of the member's choosing, and "just because" tips. Then they also have clipstores away from their main camming site, some take custom orders, some do Skype shows, some sell physical merchandise like calendars and branded shot glasses, some can make large sums of money through financial domination, some sell access to their SnapChat, some sell memberships that grant members additional ways to interact with them off-site, many have Amazon wishlists and members who like to gift them from it. Some (though admittedly very few) even do real-world meet and greets and faux dates with members for tokens or other payments.

I'm not for a second suggesting that models aren't hit hard by piracy, but I think it's a mistake to downplay the effect that piracy has had on other business sectors like music and films and games, and even books and especially magazines and newspapers (though with those last two, I guess it's more just the nature of the internet and the way information is freely shared on it rather than piracy specifically). I think the internet has just changed the way we consume media forever now. Until publishers and content producers and entertainers learn how to fully embrace the internet as a tool to make money rather than lose it (with things like Netflix and Spotify and paid online newspaper subscriptions and tailored advertisements, and cam sites in particular, I think they're learning), this is just the world we live in now, and it's likely a world that will never see the same volume of sales for albums, movies, and even porn that we saw during the 80s and 90s. Enjoying entertainment without paying for it will never be ethical but for kids born in the last 20 years or so, I think it's just something that's become ingrained in their culture. They've never had to pay for these things because they've always just been a few clicks away, for free. Once that genie's out the bottle, it's hard to put it back in, ya know?

I just woke up and feel like I'm rambling without a point now, but one more thing that's probably not relevant, but at least struck me as kind of noteworthy: the internet giveth, the internet taketh away. For models in particular, I can absolutely see why having pirated content floating around the internet would be so heartbreaking, but there's a certain irony in this technological headache for producers of content being the very same thing that allows these models to do their job in the first place. I need my Weetabix.

 

[Mila_]

Something tells me Stoya would feel quite different if instead of getting paid for her shoots straight up she got a percentage of the sales.

 

[Crumb]

Something tells me Stoya would feel quite different if instead of getting paid for her shoots straight up she got a percentage of the sales.

Stoya is already co owner of TRENCHCOATx.com

 

[BobbyB]

I think there is no going back from the easily available "free" porn.

The solution for the models could be a different way of financing by their fans.

For example there is an MFC model : Alice Biscuit: http://profiles.myfreecams.com/AliceBiscuit

She is non nude and doing mostly playing music and singing.
She set up a kind of support account:
https://www.patreon.com/AliceBiscuit?ty=h

There you can join and support her with a monthly payment of your choice.
If you have 1000 fans each giving you 5 $ that could be a nice earner and you could give the suporters exclusive content for free.

Will say there are always options to adapt to a changng enviroment...

 

[papichulo80]

There's really no argument for piracy other than the one that is made that it should be absorbed as a marketing cost. I think there are some flaws in that logic.
Regardless of whether or not it's acceptable or good we now have a sizeable population group aging into prime consumer territory who don't want to pay for any for any form of entertainment. This group has shown over and over again that they are willing to accept falling quality levels and a complete lack of curation in return for low/no cost.
Is this likely to change? Is it larger than entertainment and a symptom of a contracting g/s economy that is non reversible?
The bottom line is this. Mainstream entertainment used to rely on high paydays to make up for sparse work. That is contracting across the board to decent pay for sparse work. The upside has come down and the risks remain the same. Like any discussion of entertainment this trickles down to adult. How attractive is the adult industry when it goes from high risk high reward to high risk medium reward?
Does this have an affect on the variety and quality of entertainment available? Absolutely! But does the audience care?
P

 

[Osmia]

....Enjoying entertainment without paying for it will never be ethical but for kids born in the last 20 years or so, I think it's just something that's become ingrained in their culture. They've never had to pay for these things because they've always just been a few clicks away, for free. Once that genie's out the bottle, it's hard to put it back in, ya know?....

Something in bob's post reminded me of the retailing practice of "loss leaders" (popular products sold at a loss to get people in the store and buy more stuff). Then, I thought about iOS apps, many of which are free, but they also have paid versions or "in app purchases" to upgrade the app's functionality. It's a great marketing tool. You get to try the app and see if it's what you need or want, and if it is, it's very easy to say, fuck it, I'll pry loose $0.99 from my wallet, and now I have no ads, more functionality, whatever. I can imagine that those $0.99 purchases add up nicely for the developer.

It could be argued that MFC models can operate under a similar revenue model. Their online cam shows could be loss leaders of a sort, and generate interest in their other products (there's quite a variety, as listed by bob.). BTW, I am not in any way suggesting that freeloading is acceptable; it's not, and it's really a separate issue. But for premium members who are inclined to spend money on models, the chat rooms and live shows can be used to generate the interest and enthusiasm that leads to purchases of ancillary products, and those products can be purchased 24/7/365. A big advantage of paid content is that, by definition, there are no freeloaders (unless you include piracy, but idk how bad that is for MFC-related content).

The above probably seems pretty obvious, since most models already do offer such purchases so that they have another revenue stream. But I'm wondering whether it's common for them to explicitly think of themselves as part of the digital content revolution described by bob, in which content providers are fighting piracy and trying to figure out how to monetize their offerings so that it's worth their while.

I don't necessarily expect any detailed answers, since I'd guess that savvy MFC models want to protect the details of their business models. Now I'm rambling..

 

[JerryBoBerry]

I'm not for a second suggesting that models aren't hit hard by piracy

I'll go on the record as saying they aren't hit hard by piracy. In fact I don't think they are hit at all by it.

The people who go to tube sites exclusively for their porn, or download it from torrents or even go to those sites that cap models rooms all day long...they were not models paying customer base in the first place. They were never going to be customers, never going to pay them for it. So they aren't out money due to piracy. It's not a loss if there was never going to be a sale.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

I'll go on the record as saying they aren't hit hard by piracy. In fact I don't think they are hit at all by it.

The people who go to tube sites exclusively for their porn, or download it from torrents or even go to those sites that cap models rooms all day long...they were not models paying customer base in the first place. They were never going to be customers, never going to pay them for it. So they aren't out money due to piracy. It's not a loss if there was never going to be a sale.

I'll even go one radical step further. I'll also go on record as saying if anything some models may be occasionally helped by piracy.

There are people who stumble across tube videos or from somewhere else and just have to go meet that model. That's evidenced by the sheer number of random people joining this forum just to ask where they can find a model they saw in a pirated video somewhere. Not all of them want to do that, they'd rather just keep browsing those video sites. But if a few actually do manage to track her down, and a few of those stick around; well, there's potential income she wouldn't have had without piracy.

I seem to remember a few models in the past mention here how they've had people tip them after finding their videos posted elsewhere.

 

[Gen]

I'll go on the record as saying they aren't hit hard by piracy. In fact I don't think they are hit at all by it.

The people who go to tube sites exclusively for their porn, or download it from torrents or even go to those sites that cap models rooms all day long...they were not models paying customer base in the first place. They were never going to be customers, never going to pay them for it. So they aren't out money due to piracy. It's not a loss if there was never going to be a sale.

Disagree because I don't think it's a hard binary. I've used tube sites, and I've tipped models/bought videos. I torrent movies and music and comics, and I also buy them. It's a huge misstep in any industry to say "they were never going to buy it anyway", in my opinion. That's true for some but not all, and anyone affected by piracy (in porn or movies or whatever) should be considering the shades of grey when they're approaching piracy, imo. Again, there are some people like that, but not everyone is exclusively in one camp or the other.

I do agree piracy can help in some ways, though - again, anecdotally, I've torrented things and then later purchased them because I like them. It's definitely complicated!

 

[Kokoro]

I'll go on the record as saying they aren't hit hard by piracy. In fact I don't think they are hit at all by it.

The people who go to tube sites exclusively for their porn, or download it from torrents or even go to those sites that cap models rooms all day long...they were not models paying customer base in the first place. They were never going to be customers, never going to pay them for it. So they aren't out money due to piracy. It's not a loss if there was never going to be a sale.

I wish piracy has helped me. But its done nothing but hurt my business. I've had to take a break from making certain clips because they are pirated so much. Every single time people have come to me asking for shows, they expect it for free because they saw me on a tube site or a video they've found on a torrent site. I've given it a chance and let free videos on tube sites slide for a bit in case it did help my sales, but its done nothing good for me.

 

[fandango]

I'll even go one radical step further. I'll also go on record as saying if anything some models may be occasionally helped by piracy.

There are people who stumble across tube videos or from somewhere else and just have to go meet that model. That's evidenced by the sheer number of random people joining this forum just to ask where they can find a model they saw in a pirated video somewhere. Not all of them want to do that, they'd rather just keep browsing those video sites. But if a few actually do manage to track her down, and a few of those stick around; well, there's potential income she wouldn't have had without piracy.

I seem to remember a few models in the past mention here how they've had people tip them after finding their videos posted elsewhere.

I sort of agree with you here Jerry after all a tube site is how I discovered MFC and have now spent several tokens. I wouldn't say they are totally unaffected though, if those capping sites and tube sites somehow magically disappeared I'd bet a lot of their users would start paying cam girls.

Personally I will buy things that are reasonably priced and available easily. If they aren't then I'll pirate them for example I wanted to listen to Kanye Wests last album but it was only available exclusively on Tidal, since I already pay for Spotify each month I'm not going to join Tidal just to listen to one album. Also some TV shows aren't shown here for weeks or months after they air in the US so I just download them too others which are shown the same day or within a few days there's no need to bother.

 

[WickedTouch]

I'll go on the record as saying they aren't hit hard by piracy. In fact I don't think they are hit at all by it.

The people who go to tube sites exclusively for their porn, or download it from torrents or even go to those sites that cap models rooms all day long...they were not models paying customer base in the first place. They were never going to be customers, never going to pay them for it. So they aren't out money due to piracy. It's not a loss if there was never going to be a sale.

I agree with the statement that models are not hurt hard by piracy, but only in the sense that I understand that those individuals trawling tube sites for camgirl material will be the guys who will probably never ever visit a camsite to check out a girl's room to tip her for shows/content in the first place. There have been maybe a handful of guys, out of the many dozens of inquiries I've seen here, who have actually bothered to state that they would visit a girl's room if they knew her cam name... but my suspicion is that the number who actually visited was miniscule at best. Most guys who fetch up here with inquiries are looking for more capped content, pics, vids etc... nothing more. I'm not saying it's impossible for there to be any overlap between camsite guys and porntube trawlers, but as far as camgirl content is concerned, I think it's gonna be a very small subset that have a foot in both camps. If a guy finds a girl through a tube site and subsequently visits her room, it will probably be more the exception than the norm.

In my case, I should add that I'm not a consumer of recorded video porn these days. To paraphrase an old 1980's tv ad , I prefer "live over Memorex". I don't even go for camgirl vids, as I'm more drawn to the live event, as opposed to the edited highlights.

On the music piracy angle, the trend towards piss poor, low return streaming services, illegal copying and torrenting of musical content has changed the way many music artists sell their material. In the past, artists would record an album, then hit the road to tour and promote the album to generate further sales. With the internet generation unwilling to pay for albums like the old days (sic!) and downloading artists' full back catalogues in a few mouse clicks, musos have turned that concept on its head and now use the albums to promote the concerts, in order to turn a profit on their work.

As a long time music consumer, I've paid for everything I own... with the exception of about 50-60 hard to find tracks, which I admit I downloaded (cough, cough) illegally. I did however, eventually replace all those illegal downloads with legitimate (and better quality!) purchased copies once I managed to locate them. I'm old school... most downloads are fine, but I like to tailor my own rips and have my music sound the way I want to.