Racism, and Heartbreak!

[camstory]

Excerpt from a PM.

Hey ******,
....
....
Now, I need you to listen to my love problem. I don't really know what I need from you, but to hear me. I guess there's something I hope you can tell me that will make the problem solvable. But I really know there is no solution, and no matter what I am fucked.

I met a girl on OKC about 3 weeks ago. We had 200 + IM's back and forth, and about 2 weeks ago she came over. After some small talk I took her hand and lead her into the bedroom. It had been over 4 years for me, and tho I made her come, it was more mechanical, than any real passion. I was disappointed, and depressed. I had once been a great lover, and truly wondered had I lost that somehow. And I am sure it was not aw inspiring for her.

We didn't talk much for the 10ish days that followed. We talked on Wednesday, and Friday she came back to my place. We soon were in bed again, and as uninspired as the first time was, that Friday, (this one), and into yesterday was incredible.

Here's the problem - during a break yesterday afternoon we started talking some, she was doing 90% of the talking. She first referred to some friend of her's as black Charley. By itself it meant little to me - could be as easy as there are two Charleys, and lack of thought as too what that might sound like. Then she referred to Latino's more than once as, "scraps" (I assume b/c many lantino's in this area collect and recycle scrap metals.) It bother me quit a bit, - she had said nothing degrading in these stories, tho use of that nick was in itself degrading. I told myself, I could later tell her that I did not like it, and that it was a vulgar and racist nick name.

We again retreated to the bedroom, and there became one. Our making love, had turned to love, and we both knew it looking into each others eyes.

Again before she went today, we talked, and black Charley came up. She said he only fucked with white girls, saying he said, "I don't fuck with nigger bitches, black on black make ugly babies" (I said nothing, and hate myself to the point of tears for not saying something.) After that she her self made reference to niggers, and there is no getting around that she is quite racist.

I thought, I can sit her down and tell her my concerns, and make it clear that she needed to not be racist if she wanted to see me further. It took me only a little while to know this was no good answer. I might persuade her not to talk racist around me, but just b/c you convince a racist to not spew racist shit does not mean they are no longer a racist, any more than teaching a dog not to bark, should make you believing it is no longer a dog.

As she walked up the driveway to go today, she turned around and timidly said, "love you"

I don't know what to do. There's the chicken shit way out - just stop responding to her all together. But that is chicken shit, prolly wont work b/c she might show up, and does nothing to make her think about her beliefs. There's the less chicken shit way out - updating my profile at OKC with the statement up front that I don't do racist, and that it is a deal breaker, and leaving her 1 message to see my updated profile. Chicken shit, and as mean as the first option. I could tell her my concerns, and work over the time we might be involved to truly change her pov, and help her understand why it is so wrong. But this is her understanding since she was a baby, telling me about her grandfather driving through the black side of Philadelphia and pointing out black ppl, (gigaboos), and explaining how they had no jobs and took government $ they would use to buy fancy cloths and Cadillacs while living in falling down houses. (to this I only said, "that is b/c fancy cloths, and cars is one of the few ways they can feel equal to white ppl. I wanted to tell her, that they had no jobs b/c of ppl like her grandfather who believed black ppl were lazy and thieves, and there were no jobs for them to have. I wanted to tell her that their houses were falling down, b/c they knew no one of any standing was ever likely to come to their neighborhoods, much less visit their homes. tho, well dressed, with a new Cad, on the good side of town, they might have the impression they would get a little respect. I wanted to slap her and tell her to stop being such a fucking idiot. But I did non of those things, and again hate myself for not.) (again now as I tell you to the point of tears!)

I think the chance of ever really making her see things differently is very unlikely. Laying next to her, stroking her neck and gazing into her eyes, I know I have fallen in love with part of her. But what I know more than anything, is I can not ignore her racism. I can not think of anything else that I could not ignore for love. I would overlook, the fact that I was involved with someone who was a bible thumping, church going, follower of accent myth, if the love was strong enough. I could ignore being involved with some one who believed global warning was 100% made up, and was nothing to worry about, if the love was strong enough. But there is no love strong enough, to ignore being involved with a racist!

I am again depressed, and the only silver lining I have is knowing I am still a great lover, and tho importune to me, it pales in comparison.

In writing you this I have found one more option - I could forward her this letter. I think it would not change any of her beliefs, as I know this is something she believes to be a core belief. At best I think it would serve to finish the relationship, and It could have catastrophic effects, if she tried to convince me that what she believes is rooted in fact. (An understandable reaction when you have seen a thing only ever one way and everything you have come to think you know has been skewed through the lenses of prejudice. I could easily imagine an argument along the lines of black ppl being lazy and being % wise more likely to be getting government aid, than white ppl. I could not make a correct argument from my experience that these things were not stereotypically so. But I understand that much of the culture black ppl have had to live in in the U.S. is one in which the anger of being treated unfairly has manifested in an attitude that says, it does not matter how hard we work, we will never be given the rewards equal to our efforts, so give as little effort as possible, b/c that is what is being offered us. I also understand that there are more black ppl % per capita getting government aid b/c the need is greater do to lack of opportunity to make it on their own. I could further imagine an argument that made black ppl to be much more likely to be criminals. Again, I could not make a good case against this just considering the amount of black ppl incarcerated, or even in my experience that black ppl may tend to gravitate toward bucking the system and may in deed be more likely to commit criminal acts. I would never solely rely on the argument that black ppl and minorities in general are not treated equally and justly in our criminal system, tho I know this to be true. I know that for the same reasons above, those of a culture of resentment and lack of opportunity, that it makes logical sense that many black & minority ppl might be temped to get over on a system that has always seemed to be trying to get over on them. But you see my friend these are things I understand, and are things she has never even been exposed to, or when exposed to, has never given any thought to, b/c they are so far out of her pov they have been dismissed immediately as bull shit with out any thought at all.)

I loved life two days ago, and now I just want to cry.

~E~

 

[camstory]

After reading the OP, just now a friend asked what I meant by "catastrophic effects"? It was a bad choice of words. What I would hope to do by sending her the above letter, is to end this before it gets further along. While also providing some explanation for why I was being a dick.

My fear is that it would turn into a one sided argument. As much as I like to believe I am opened minded, and would leave some room on any subject for alternative consideration. This is one subject, that does not fit that belief. I don't want to be a dick, but I really don't want to be a complete raving asshole, which is easily what I might become on this one.

 

[Fay_Galore]

racism as you described above is often a force of habit, how you were raised, what environment you're from. People can change you know, if you like her, just talk to her! it's easy enough to find out if this is how she feels or just how people told her how to perceive people.

also, maybe this could have been summed up in 1/4th of the text, making it more inviting for people to read too

 

[Duane Dibbley]

If she is a racist, why would she refer to black Charly as a friend of hers?
So basically it's probably what Fay said, but there is only one way to find out and that's to confront her.
:twocents-02cents:

 

[LaceyRoyce]

If she is a racist, why would she refer to black Charly as a friend of hers?
So basically it's probably what Fay said, but there is only one way to find out and that's to confront her.
:twocents-02cents:

Because it means he's defining him by his race.
That's why its racist.

You can be friends with POC and still be racist.


I didn't read your post camstory - it was too long and wordy, i skimmed most of it. I do want to tell you having been in relationships with two people with racist views, it is possible to change their ways of thinking. I do think that it requires a sense of shame about it. For example, someone knows its bad to be racist, but constantly perpetuates stereotypes without understanding that this is a racist thing to do, this would be someone who might be open to changing when confronted with their racism.

Someone like my old boss who told me flat out "we don't hire niggers" is probably going to be less likely to change.

 

[Duane Dibbley]

Miss Lollipop, you're a girl. I just defined you by your sex, doesn't make me a sexist.

If I had seen this guy from 50 yards away at the scene of a crime and had to describe him to the police, I'd probably say "It was a black guy".
Defining him by gender and race, because that is all I can see from a distance.

Though refering to his race when it has nothing to do with the conversation (as I assume it didn't in Camstory's post) is probably force of habit, like Fay said. The reason for the habit may be that she is a racist.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as she refered to him as black Charly and not nigger Charly, it doesn't have to mean a thing. There's no point in jumping to conclusions (but I admit, it doesn't look good).
Ask her and find out.

 

[SexySteph]

Miss Lollipop, you're a girl. I just defined you by your sex, doesn't make me a sexist.

If I had seen this guy from 50 yards away at the scene of a crime and had to describe him to the police, I'd probably say "It was a black guy".
Defining him by gender and race, because that is all I can see from a distance.

Though refering to his race when it has nothing to do with the conversation (as I assume it didn't in Camstory's post) is probably force of habit, like Fay said. The reason for the habit may be that she is a racist.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as she refered to him as black Charly and not nigger Charly, it doesn't have to mean a thing. There's no point in jumping to conclusions (but I admit, it doesn't look good).
Ask her and find out.

There are different kinds of racism. "All black people like koolaid" well that's not mean, I don't want to burn crosses in the yard of my black neighbors so I'm not a racist, right? Wrong.

There's benevolent and malevolent racism. They are both wrong, one is just more overtly dangerous than the other. (Notice I said overtly.)

 

[camstory]

I imagine considering no thanks @ OP and 5 replies, I have stirred some debate. Came here to to call myself out, and will get to others who may have. I am not one to hide from opposing opinion. If I were I would have closer to 3 post than 3k. So I will return in due time.

So, thought I would call myself a Hippocratic, she would not let me avoid discussing what might be bothering me. She will try to remember to call it a equalizer, and not a nigger beater, and I will try not to make her out to be a Klan's men because she has, (what is IMO), a sometimes fucked up lexicon. All for now, we have sheets that need to go in the laundry.

 

[camstory]

maybe not relevant, but I like it.

 

[Alcon]

Well, this'll probably never happen to me because I'm not white. But I'm not black either... this would definitely be a deal breaker if it did happen.

 

[Fay_Galore]

I imagine considering no thanks @ OP and 5 replies, I have stirred some debate. Came here to to call myself out, and will get to others who may have. I am not one to hide from opposing opinion. If I were I would have closer to 3 post than 3k. So I will return in due time.

So, thought I would call myself a Hippocratic, she would not let me avoid discussing what might be bothering me. She will try to remember to call it a equalizer, and not a nigger beater, and I will try not to make her out to be a Klan's men because she has, (what is IMO), a sometimes fucked up lexicon. All for now, we have sheets that need to go in the laundry.

I'm not a native speaker, I read this four times and I have no idea what you're saying.
Do you mean you've posted this more to vent and not looking for advise/people disagreeing with you?

 

[JoleneBrody]

I imagine considering no thanks @ OP and 5 replies, I have stirred some debate. Came here to to call myself out, and will get to others who may have. I am not one to hide from opposing opinion. If I were I would have closer to 3 post than 3k. So I will return in due time.

So, thought I would call myself a Hippocratic, she would not let me avoid discussing what might be bothering me. She will try to remember to call it a equalizer, and not a nigger beater, and I will try not to make her out to be a Klan's men because she has, (what is IMO), a sometimes fucked up lexicon. All for now, we have sheets that need to go in the laundry.

I'm not a native speaker, I read this four times and I have no idea what you're saying.
Do you mean you've posted this more to vent and not looking for advise/people disagreeing with you?

It's camstory. Native english speakers don't even understand half of what he says. :lol:

Sorry cam... You know you're confusing.

 

[camstory]

racism as you described above is often a force of habit, how you were raised, what environment you're from. People can change you know, if you like her, just talk to her! it's easy enough to find out if this is how she feels or just how people told her how to perceive people.

also, maybe this could have been summed up in 1/4th of the text, making it more inviting for people to read too

Absolutely, To both. Thank You.

 

[camstory]

If she is a racist, why would she refer to black Charly as a friend of hers?
So basically it's probably what Fay said, but there is only one way to find out and that's to confront her.
:twocents-02cents:

Yep, again

 

[LadyLuna]

I imagine considering no thanks @ OP and 5 replies, I have stirred some debate. Came here to to call myself out, and will get to others who may have. I am not one to hide from opposing opinion. If I were I would have closer to 3 post than 3k. So I will return in due time.

So, thought I would call myself a Hippocratic, she would not let me avoid discussing what might be bothering me. She will try to remember to call it a equalizer, and not a nigger beater, and I will try not to make her out to be a Klan's men because she has, (what is IMO), a sometimes fucked up lexicon. All for now, we have sheets that need to go in the laundry.

I'm not a native speaker, I read this four times and I have no idea what you're saying.
Do you mean you've posted this more to vent and not looking for advise/people disagreeing with you?

I'll try to interpret for you. I'm sure camstory will correct me if I'm wrong.

I imagine considering no thanks @ OP and 5 replies, I have stirred some debate.

He's speculating on where the thread has gotten, considering there's no thanks on his first post despite the fact that there are replies. This leads him to believe there's some debate here.

Came here to to call myself out, and will get to others who may have.

Calling out is an American slang for "telling this person why he/she is wrong". So he's here to contradict his previous posts, and will get around later to responding to those who have debated.

I am not one to hide from opposing opinion. If I were I would have closer to 3 post than 3k. So I will return in due time.

If he didn't want to hear opposing views, he wouldn't post on here as much as he has, as nearly all his posts tend to spark debate, or at least a lot of "what?"

So, thought I would call myself a Hippocratic, she would not let me avoid discussing what might be bothering me.

She realized something was bothering him and pushed him to discuss it with her, before he had a chance to bring it up on his own as he was intending to do.

She will try to remember to call it a equalizer, and not a nigger beater, and I will try not to make her out to be a Klan's men because she has, (what is IMO), a sometimes fucked up lexicon.

She doesn't actually believe in the overtly hurtful racism, but grew up with the racist terms and so she uses them without thinking. She will try to think about what she is saying, and he will try not to judge her for her language.

(lexicon is a way of speaking, which phrases you use and what slang you use make up your lexicon.)

All for now, we have sheets that need to go in the laundry.

After their discussion they had more of that awesomeness from before, and so the sheets need to be washed.

Glad to hear you worked it out Camstory!

Also, I think the lack of thanks on your post was due to confusion. I wasn't sure if it was your pm, or if you were showing a friend's problem looking for how to advise your friend, which didn't seem like something you would do, but was my first thought.

 

[Nordling]

Yes, and in a way, it wouldn't be appropriate to thank the original post...since it was more of an exposition of a situation in Cam's life. Like, "I had tuna salad for lunch and it was rancid." Neutral, thankyouwise. I will now go back and thank the post where Cam said they worked it out.

 

[camstory]

If she is a racist, why would she refer to black Charly as a friend of hers?
So basically it's probably what Fay said, but there is only one way to find out and that's to confront her.
:twocents-02cents:

Because it means he's defining him by his race.
That's why its racist.

You can be friends with POC and still be racist.


I didn't read your post camstory - it was too long and wordy, i skimmed most of it. I do want to tell you having been in relationships with two people with racist views, it is possible to change their ways of thinking. I do think that it requires a sense of shame about it. For example, someone knows its bad to be racist, but constantly perpetuates stereotypes without understanding that this is a racist thing to do, this would be someone who might be open to changing when confronted with their racism.

Someone like my old boss who told me flat out "we don't hire niggers" is probably going to be less likely to change.

Fuckin beautiful! TY for the assist on Black Charley.

constantly perpetuates stereotypes without understanding that this is a racist thing to do, this would be someone who might be open to changing when confronted with their racism.

We are there, and working on that.

And yes too many words! Gotten much better on that one, but should not have used an excerpt from a PM, (The common denominator of ppl I pm with is they tolerate my often high WC. Fukin wonderful ppl all).

Now, I have to get to the rest, just saw a in-between post by LLuna when i previewed. (No one's opinion i respect more.)

 

[camstory]

Miss Lollipop, you're a girl. I just defined you by your sex, doesn't make me a sexist.

If I had seen this guy from 50 yards away at the scene of a crime and had to describe him to the police, I'd probably say "It was a black guy".
Defining him by gender and race, because that is all I can see from a distance.

Though refering to his race when it has nothing to do with the conversation (as I assume it didn't in Camstory's post) is probably force of habit, like Fay said. The reason for the habit may be that she is a racist.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as she refered to him as black Charly and not nigger Charly, it doesn't have to mean a thing. There's no point in jumping to conclusions (but I admit, it doesn't look good).
Ask her and find out.

I'll get back to this DD, trying to catch up, you dam ppl who type, well type, you are so dam fast. - and i'm the one who uses so many dam words, go figure.

 

[camstory]

Miss Lollipop, you're a girl. I just defined you by your sex, doesn't make me a sexist.

If I had seen this guy from 50 yards away at the scene of a crime and had to describe him to the police, I'd probably say "It was a black guy".
Defining him by gender and race, because that is all I can see from a distance.

Though refering to his race when it has nothing to do with the conversation (as I assume it didn't in Camstory's post) is probably force of habit, like Fay said. The reason for the habit may be that she is a racist.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as she refered to him as black Charly and not nigger Charly, it doesn't have to mean a thing. There's no point in jumping to conclusions (but I admit, it doesn't look good).
Ask her and find out.

There are different kinds of racism. "All black people like koolaid" well that's not mean, I don't want to burn crosses in the yard of my black neighbors so I'm not a racist, right? Wrong.

There's benevolent and malevolent racism. They are both wrong, one is just more overtly dangerous than the other. (Notice I said overtly.)

 

[camstory]

I imagine considering no thanks @ OP and 5 replies, I have stirred some debate. Came here to to call myself out, and will get to others who may have. I am not one to hide from opposing opinion. If I were I would have closer to 3 post than 3k. So I will return in due time.

So, thought I would call myself a Hippocratic, she would not let me avoid discussing what might be bothering me. She will try to remember to call it a equalizer, and not a nigger beater, and I will try not to make her out to be a Klan's men because she has, (what is IMO), a sometimes fucked up lexicon. All for now, we have sheets that need to go in the laundry.

I'm not a native speaker, I read this four times and I have no idea what you're saying.
Do you mean you've posted this more to vent and not looking for advise/people disagreeing with you?

Yes it may have been more to vent, and I was pleased when I thought maybe I had some advice in following post. The ppl here are the smartest group I have known, so I always dig words of advice. I was worried, I might be called out on some subtle stereotyping I my self used in my OP rant. (I struggle with knowing my self and the things that have been hardwired by limited life experiences and the programming of my up bringing and culture.)

I may have over reacted, but this is such a huge thing for me, and if I can know she may decide to struggle herself with knowing herself on this issue, I will/can mellow out, - she is a smart girl, just needs to take a look at some stuff, and she will see my problem with it, I hope.

Now on to JJ's post, oh this is scary!

 

[JoleneBrody]

Oh for the love of god no, it was a joke! Shhhhhh cam, shhhhhh.

 

[camstory]

I imagine considering no thanks @ OP and 5 replies, I have stirred some debate. Came here to to call myself out, and will get to others who may have. I am not one to hide from opposing opinion. If I were I would have closer to 3 post than 3k. So I will return in due time.

So, thought I would call myself a Hippocratic, she would not let me avoid discussing what might be bothering me. She will try to remember to call it a equalizer, and not a nigger beater, and I will try not to make her out to be a Klan's men because she has, (what is IMO), a sometimes fucked up lexicon. All for now, we have sheets that need to go in the laundry.

I'm not a native speaker, I read this four times and I have no idea what you're saying.
Do you mean you've posted this more to vent and not looking for advise/people disagreeing with you?

It's camstory. Native english speakers don't even understand half of what he says. :lol:

Sorry cam... You know you're confusing.

This is one of those you would like to thank twice. LMAO @ JJ, Thanks JJ.

Just had someone, (her, Kelly) show me this, - best collage humor I've seen and totally unrelated, except both made me LoL!!!

 

[camstory]

Oh for the love of god no, it was a joke! Shhhhhh cam, shhhhhh.

I know it was JJ, and I loved it - also loved the visual Shhhhh cam, Shhhhhh, been a long time since you had to do that for me in your room, see you can teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Oh for the love of god no, it was a joke! Shhhhhh cam, shhhhhh.

I know it was JJ, and I loved it - also loved the visual Shhhhh cam, Shhhhhh, been a long time since you had to do that for me in your room, see you can teach an old dog new tricks.

PHEW! HAHAH you scared me for a minute there. :lol:

Good luck Cam, just don't let lust over rule human rights and decency. You're better than that.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

Miss Lollipop, you're a girl. I just defined you by your sex, doesn't make me a sexist.

If I had seen this guy from 50 yards away at the scene of a crime and had to describe him to the police, I'd probably say "It was a black guy".
Defining him by gender and race, because that is all I can see from a distance.

Though refering to his race when it has nothing to do with the conversation (as I assume it didn't in Camstory's post) is probably force of habit, like Fay said. The reason for the habit may be that she is a racist.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as she refered to him as black Charly and not nigger Charly, it doesn't have to mean a thing. There's no point in jumping to conclusions (but I admit, it doesn't look good).
Ask her and find out.

I just tried to write a post explaining why this is racism and I'm getting far to wordy.

Essentailly, describing someone by their race is fine when its normal to describe them.

Throwing a race descriptor in front of their name makes it part of their IDENTITY thus defining them.

It's non necessary.

 

[camstory]

I imagine considering no thanks @ OP and 5 replies, I have stirred some debate. Came here to to call myself out, and will get to others who may have. I am not one to hide from opposing opinion. If I were I would have closer to 3 post than 3k. So I will return in due time.

So, thought I would call myself a Hippocratic, she would not let me avoid discussing what might be bothering me. She will try to remember to call it a equalizer, and not a nigger beater, and I will try not to make her out to be a Klan's men because she has, (what is IMO), a sometimes fucked up lexicon. All for now, we have sheets that need to go in the laundry.

I'm not a native speaker, I read this four times and I have no idea what you're saying.
Do you mean you've posted this more to vent and not looking for advise/people disagreeing with you?

I'll try to interpret for you. I'm sure camstory will correct me if I'm wrong.

I imagine considering no thanks @ OP and 5 replies, I have stirred some debate.

He's speculating on where the thread has gotten, considering there's no thanks on his first post despite the fact that there are replies. This leads him to believe there's some debate here.

Came here to to call myself out, and will get to others who may have.

Calling out is an American slang for "telling this person why he/she is wrong". So he's here to contradict his previous posts, and will get around later to responding to those who have debated.

I am not one to hide from opposing opinion. If I were I would have closer to 3 post than 3k. So I will return in due time.

If he didn't want to hear opposing views, he wouldn't post on here as much as he has, as nearly all his posts tend to spark debate, or at least a lot of "what?"

So, thought I would call myself a Hippocratic, she would not let me avoid discussing what might be bothering me.

She realized something was bothering him and pushed him to discuss it with her, before he had a chance to bring it up on his own as he was intending to do.

She will try to remember to call it a equalizer, and not a nigger beater, and I will try not to make her out to be a Klan's men because she has, (what is IMO), a sometimes fucked up lexicon.

She doesn't actually believe in the overtly hurtful racism, but grew up with the racist terms and so she uses them without thinking. She will try to think about what she is saying, and he will try not to judge her for her language.

(lexicon is a way of speaking, which phrases you use and what slang you use make up your lexicon.)

All for now, we have sheets that need to go in the laundry.

After their discussion they had more of that awesomeness from before, and so the sheets need to be washed.

Glad to hear you worked it out Camstory!

Also, I think the lack of thanks on your post was due to confusion. I wasn't sure if it was your pm, or if you were showing a friend's problem looking for how to advise your friend, which didn't seem like something you would do, but was my first thought.

You are so fukin brilliant, and know me so well Miss Luna! thank you, I could not, and did not do a better job of explaining me. Very Good

 

[camstory]

Yes, and in a way, it wouldn't be appropriate to thank the original post...since it was more of an exposition of a situation in Cam's life. Like, "I had tuna salad for lunch and it was rancid." Neutral, thankyouwise. I will now go back and thank the post where Cam said they worked it out.

Thank you sir. (you know me pretty well too.)

 

[camstory]

Miss Lollipop, you're a girl. I just defined you by your sex, doesn't make me a sexist.

If I had seen this guy from 50 yards away at the scene of a crime and had to describe him to the police, I'd probably say "It was a black guy".
Defining him by gender and race, because that is all I can see from a distance.

Though refering to his race when it has nothing to do with the conversation (as I assume it didn't in Camstory's post) is probably force of habit, like Fay said. The reason for the habit may be that she is a racist.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as she refered to him as black Charly and not nigger Charly, it doesn't have to mean a thing. There's no point in jumping to conclusions (but I admit, it doesn't look good).
Ask her and find out.

I just tried to write a post explaining why this is racism and I'm getting far to wordy.

Essentailly, describing someone by their race is fine when its normal to describe them.

Throwing a race descriptor in front of their name makes it part of their IDENTITY thus defining them.

It's non necessary.

Right, and it turns out there are not two different Charleys, so there is not need for a differentiator. (yes I think it is a word, but I make em up as I go along.)

 

[camstory]

Thank you all for your time and replies. You are both wise and funny, (still chuckling at JJ's explanation of why it has nothing to do with what language you speak.)

Thanks again. (Pretty bad lighting, but maybe you can see the happy.)

 

[Bocefish]

Methinks camstory kinda hates Twitter.

:twocents-02cents: