Pimpin' for Ron Paul

[Nordling]

Not according to the National Cancer Institute:

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/abortion-miscarriage

 

[Bocefish]

I'm beginning to think Nordling would make something up to argue if Ron Paul said the sun sets in the west.

A few of Nordling's more interesting sayings so far in this thread:

Ron Paul is an evil bastard who wants "freedom" for rich, white, male Protestants, and screw everyone else.

Ron Paul is a white supremacist.

In modern politics, "states rights" is code. It means, "I want to repress you and take away your rights."

A vote for Ron Paul would mean a return to isolationism, the robber baron era, and all that entails.

The authors of the constitution never expected us to look for explicit wording.

Ron Paul wants to turn the clock back...maybe to about 1200 CE.

--------------------------------------------------------

If Ron Paul is such an evil, white supremacist bastard that only wants "freedom" for rich, white, male Protestants, and to screw everyone else, strip women of their rights and return us all to isolationism and all that entails... I wonder why nobody else has ever brought this up? Surely, with all the political mudslinging and gotcha campaigns nowadays, some of his opponents would have brought this to the attention of the media if it had any validity. Could it be because it's not, in fact, true? Hmmm... Could it just be somebody's opinion who wants others to take it as fact?

 

[Poker_Babe]

Not according to the National Cancer Institute:

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/abortion-miscarriage

Well I can't say that I've researched the link between cancer and abortions very thoroughly. I'm only going on some conversations I had with a few Armenian girls in my Medical Assisting class a few years back. They where telling me how birth control was illegal but abortions where legal there when their mothers and grandmothers where at the age of being able to get pregnant. And how after getting so many abortions done, they ended up getting cancer of the uterus. IDK, maybe they do it differently over there, or maybe it's evolved since then. But to tell you the truth, I'm very skeptical of anything the government has to tell me (hence the .gov in your link).

 

[Nordling]

Not according to the National Cancer Institute:

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/abortion-miscarriage

Well I can't say that I've researched the link between cancer and abortions very thoroughly. I'm only going on some conversations I had with a few Armenian girls in my Medical Assisting class a few years back. They where telling me how birth control was illegal but abortions where legal there when their mothers and grandmothers where at the age of being able to get pregnant. And how after getting so many abortions done, they ended up getting cancer of the uterus. IDK, maybe they do it differently over there, or maybe it's evolved since then. But to tell you the truth, I'm very skeptical of anything the government has to tell me (hence the .gov in your link).

I understand. I try to be skeptical about everything, including Armenian ladies I may run into while taking a class. But we do have to start somewhere for information and I tend to start with mainstream sources--but still like to confirm it with a few unrelated sources.

 

[Poker_Babe]

BTW the Armenian girls I was talking to, where Pro Choice

 

[hillstrand]

Straw Man? No, there ARE people who want to take away women's rights regarding control of their own bodies, and I wonder the motives when someone posts an anecdote about someone who has been less than responsible--when the topic is about EVERYONE's rights, not just one miscreant. Have you even been listening to such wonders of intellect lately like Rick Santorum? He not only wants to make abortions a crime (of the provider) but wants to outlaw contraception in any form (other than the stupid "aspirin between the knees" joke).

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to use the poor choices of the few to make illegal, the options of the many. Yes, some people lead irresponsible lives, they casually have unprotected sex, some people eat too much junk food, some people jaywalk, some people don't wash behind their ears.... blah blah.

To me, it's ironic that so many people who scream about "Freedom" appear to want to deny freedom to others.

It is a Straw-man, in so far as your reply was a fake argument.

Many who want to end Abortion (such as myself) merely want to end Abortion because they find the practice completely barbaric
and see zero reason for such barbarism. It is fallacious and completely dishonest to argue that anyone who wants to end Abortion wants to take away Women's Rights.

As for Rights. Rights are not absolutes. Rights have limits, end points. The Question is when does a Woman's right to govern her body and her reproduction end and the Right to Life come into play. Some Abortionists want to go beyond the Supreme Court's decision and allow abortion to happen at any point during the pregnancy, including one day before the due date and infanticide for infants born during the 'procedure'. Your argument was an evasion of the Moral and ethical questions the issue of abortion brings up. It is not a simple medical procedure like hernia repair.

As for using poor choices of individuals to make something illegal... So I take it you are pretty much against Progressive politics because this is American Liberalism in a nutshell.

As for Rick Santorum... He is not actually a Conservative. Oh, he is a Christian Moralizer but that doesn't equal a Conservative. Conservatives understand Big Government runs entirely counter to the aims of Conservatism which is Liberty. Rick Santorum believes you can govern people into better people, a Progressive Idea.

As for your remarks about Freedom. There are ways of living that breed Individual achievement, stable society, and preserves Liberty for future Generations. This is Social Conservatism in a nutshell. America has been going downhill since Johnson's 'Great Society' and the counter-culture revolution of the 60s. Look up Rome, panem et circenses.

The real Irony is Liberals shrieking about Freedom when they are the party that believes Government can build a perfect Society...

 

[Poker_Babe]

Only food for thought...

When trying to find my stances on abortion, both legal and moral, I have to ask myself a few questions...
At what stage of pregnancy is it morally ok to get an abortion?
What about in cases of rape, incest, or ectopic pregnancies?
How do I feel about the morning after pill or first Trimester abortions versus late term abortions.
What about getting an abortion at 8 1/2 months into the pregnancy? (it's legal to do so, Roe Vs. Wade)
When does the baby have a right to life?
How do I feel about women who that throw their newborns into the dumpster right after they give birth?
What about the father of the unborn baby that doesn't want the mother to end the life of his child?
All of these questions, some of them are hard to answer, some of them are not. All of them will have different answers from different people.
Yes it's a heated topic! and a topic I myself struggle with all the time.

 

[Bocefish]

A very controversial subject indeed.

More food for thought...

What about prenatal screening and you discover your child has Downs Syndrome or some other life altering disorder??

It's nowhere near a black and white issue... so many gray areas to consider in each and every case.

You also have to consider the substantial risks of abortion both physically and mentally.

http://afterabortion.org/2000/the-cover ... aningless/

http://afterabortion.org/1999/abortion- ... -abortion/

Some laws are even more confusing in certain situations like Laci and Conner's Law

http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/abortio ... 32504.html

 

[Poker_Babe]

Some laws are even more confusing in certain situations like Laci and Conner's Law

http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/abortio ... 32504.html

OMG, yeah totally, how'd I forget to mention Laci & Conner's Law?!?!

And another thing I forgot to mention... what about the Hippocratic Oath? "Do no harm"

 

[Nordling]

Straw Man? No, there ARE people who want to take away women's rights regarding control of their own bodies, and I wonder the motives when someone posts an anecdote about someone who has been less than responsible--when the topic is about EVERYONE's rights, not just one miscreant. Have you even been listening to such wonders of intellect lately like Rick Santorum? He not only wants to make abortions a crime (of the provider) but wants to outlaw contraception in any form (other than the stupid "aspirin between the knees" joke).

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to use the poor choices of the few to make illegal, the options of the many. Yes, some people lead irresponsible lives, they casually have unprotected sex, some people eat too much junk food, some people jaywalk, some people don't wash behind their ears.... blah blah.

To me, it's ironic that so many people who scream about "Freedom" appear to want to deny freedom to others.

It is a Straw-man, in so far as your reply was a fake argument.

"insofar" is one word; just thought you'd like to know. You should look up "strawman." You obviously don't understand what it means. Calling my reply "fake" doesn't make it so. You're making an unsupported assertion. The equivalent of calling someone a name. Meaningless

Many who want to end Abortion (such as myself) merely want to end Abortion because they find the practice completely barbaric and see zero reason for such barbarism. It is fallacious and completely dishonest to argue that anyone who wants to end Abortion wants to take away Women's Rights.

No, not dishonest at all. Making abortion illegal, which I assume is what you want, does indeed take away women's rights. Calling it "barbaric" adds nothing to your argument; you're merely characterizing your personal "feelings" with a word. ALSO, the equivalent of calling someone a name. Meaningless.

As for Rights. Rights are not absolutes. Rights have limits, end points. The Question is when does a Woman's right to govern her body and her reproduction end and the Right to Life come into play. Some Abortionists want to go beyond the Supreme Court's decision and allow abortion to happen at any point during the pregnancy, including one day before the due date and infanticide for infants born during the 'procedure'. Your argument was an evasion of the Moral and ethical questions the issue of abortion brings up. It is not a simple medical procedure like hernia repair.

"Some Abortionists" Yeah, and some people want to make child abuse legal. So what? Pointing to the worst cases of humanity does not confer that stain to anyone else. Hernia repair is not as simple as you may think. Any surgery has risks. Roe v Wade, btw, does NOT allow unquestioned abortions during ANY STAGE OF PREGNANCY. Only during the first trimester. Any abortions later than that are strictly regulated.

As for using poor choices of individuals to make something illegal... So I take it you are pretty much against Progressive politics because this is American Liberalism in a nutshell.
Sorry. I have no idea what you just said. The labels you're using mean different things for different people in different places, times and people. I think we can avoid them in this thread since "liberal, conservative, progressive, etc." all mean different things to different people.

As for Rick Santorum... He is not actually a Conservative. Oh, he is a Christian Moralizer but that doesn't equal a Conservative. Conservatives understand Big Government runs entirely counter to the aims of Conservatism which is Liberty. Rick Santorum believes you can govern people into better people, a Progressive Idea.
True Scotsman argument. No thanks. I'm not biting.

As for your remarks about Freedom. There are ways of living that breed Individual achievement, stable society, and preserves Liberty for future Generations. This is Social Conservatism in a nutshell. America has been going downhill since Johnson's 'Great Society' and the counter-culture revolution of the 60s. Look up Rome, panem et circenses.

Yeah, ending segregation, Jim Crow laws, reducing poverty, and expanding the right to vote to all Americans sure sucked. (SARCASM)

The real Irony is Liberals shrieking about Freedom when they are the party that believes Government can build a perfect Society...

Ha ha! Now THIS is a strawman. Attributing beliefs, thoughts or statements onto a group or an indivdual that they've NEVER made.

Thanks for playing!

 

[Bocefish]

I've given up replying to Nordling due to his wild accusations, name calling, assumptions and all around ridiculous spin tactics.

 

[Nordling]

I've given up replying to Nordling due to his wild accusations, name calling, assumptions and all around ridiculous spin tactics.

Gee. Sorry to hear that. But please show where I've called anyone on here a name. I haven't, nor have I made any "wild accusations." As far as assumptions, I generally assume we're talking in English and go from there. Sorry if we disagree on Ron Paul and stuff but I think a good debate is fun.

Maybe if, instead of accusing me of name calling, [bad] assumptions or "spin," you'd point out where I've done that and why you think so, we could have a good conversation. (NOTE: yes, I'm assuming you meant I make bad assumptions, since, after all, without any assumptions at all, humans cannot communicate. Think about it.)

 

[SweepTheLeg]

I'm often curious to those who are against abortion being legal are also against the government and their tax dollars being used to help provide any help to the poor single mother raise her child and instead should be punished to raise her child by herself because that is how unwanted pregnancies should be viewed as- a punishment.

There is many gray areas going into abortion and I'm all in favor of precautions being made to prevent unwanted pregnancies, but also making abortion illegal won't make abortion go away. It'll just cause more deaths due to internal bleeding from clothes hanger stab wounds, or unsafe practices with unclean utensils in underground abortion clinics.

 

[Poker_Babe]

I'm often curious to those who are against abortion being legal are also against the government and their tax dollars being used to help provide any help to the poor single mother raise her child and instead should be punished to raise her child by herself because that is how unwanted pregnancies should be viewed as- a punishment.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. I don't feel as though the majority of people who want abortions to be illegal feel this way because they think mothers of unwanted pregnancies should be punished. It has to do more with wanting to protect the life of what they believe *is* a human being, and a child human being at that.
This is where I struggle on the legality issue of abortion. And I do separate abortion into two issues, that of legality, and that of morality. Because I do not believe that just because someone finds something morally wrong, it should be made against the law.
This country was built on the principle of everyone having the right to do whatever they want to just so long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. So it's really more a question of at what point does a human fetus have a right to life? At birth? At conception? At first heart beat? Second trimester? Third trimester?
Like I said, I still struggle with this myself.

Just another food for thought:
Not many people know this, but an unborn baby can cry.

Although the watery environment in which he lives presents small opportunity for crying, which does require air, the unborn knows how to cry, and given a chance to do so, he will. A doctor ". . . injected an air bubble into the baby’s amniotic sac and then took x-rays. It so happened that the air bubble covered the baby’s face. The whole procedure had no doubt given the little fellow quite a bit of jostling about, and the moment that he had air to inhale and exhale they heard the clear sound of a protesting wail emitting from the uterus. Late that same night, the mother awakened her doctor with a telephone call, to report that when she lay down to sleep the air bubble got over the baby’s head again, and he was crying so loudly he was keeping both her and her husband awake. The doctor advised her to prop herself up-right with pillows so that the air could not reach the baby’s head, which was by now in the lower part of the uterus." Day & Liley, Modern Motherhood, Random House, 1969, pp. 50-51

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_12.asp

 

[Nordling]

I'm often curious to those who are against abortion being legal are also against the government and their tax dollars being used to help provide any help to the poor single mother raise her child and instead should be punished to raise her child by herself because that is how unwanted pregnancies should be viewed as- a punishment.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. I don't feel as though the majority of people who want abortions to be illegal feel this way because they think mothers of unwanted pregnancies should be punished. It has to do more with wanting to protect the life of what they believe *is* a human being, and a child human being at that.
This is where I struggle on the legality issue of abortion. And I do separate abortion into two issues, that of legality, and that of morality. Because I do not believe that just because someone finds something morally wrong, it should be made against the law.
This country was built on the principle of everyone having the right to do whatever they want to just so long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. So it's really more a question of at what point does a human fetus have a right to life? At birth? At conception? At first heart beat? Second trimester? Third trimester?
Like I said, I still struggle with this myself.

I want to thank you for being passionate, thoughtful and yet always polite. It's wonderful to be able to disagree on an issue and still admire someone for being a great person.

As far as "when" does a fetus have a right to life... my rule of thumb is: "when its host, the potential mother, decides it is; that is, when she decides she want it to become a baby/person." No one else in the world has the ethics, morality, authority or intellect to make this decision. Morality, too, is a personal thing.

 

[LeenaLiberty]

One of the best books on the abortion issue.
Have ya'll read it?

 

[LeenaLiberty]

A very controversial subject indeed.

More food for thought...

What about prenatal screening and you discover your child has Downs Syndrome or some other life altering disorder??

It's nowhere near a black and white issue... so many gray areas to consider in each and every case.

Good question to consider... raises a lot of issues.


"Are we overstepping the bounds or morality by picking and choosing who to save and who to let die?' R. P.


Also is this decision something the fed should have control of??? We know how fair and just, concerned they are when it comes to moral concerns regarding life and death... (insert extreme sarcasm here)

 

[Nordling]

One of the best books on the abortion issue.
Have ya'll read it?

OMG. It's out of print and the one used seller on Amazon wants $600 for it. How funny is that?

 

[Poker_Babe]

Huh, I had no clue RP wrote a book about the abortion issue. Too bad it's out of print and $600 for the one for sale. I wonder if there is an ebook anywhere for download?

 

[LeenaLiberty]

Abortion is a very important issue and I don't want to minimize its importance or relevance.

But... I find it interesting though that this is now at the forefront of attention of debates, talks shows, news, whatever... while we are now currently/actively invading other countries and actively preparing for yet another war RIGHT NOW.
Also while also the economy is collapsing before our eyes and SIGNIFICANT things are happening in Europe economically that will likely impact us at some point..

Just seems like a good diversionary tactic to distract us from some MAJOR things going on right now.

Topics like abortion do a great good job of keeping the public focused on something they can debate about for hours upon hours, all the while distracting us from the other crap that is going on.

I also find it interesting when government wants to have some hand in the regulation or influence of things like abortions (which we know is a morality issue) but then has no problems whatsoever invading countries and killing and dehumanizing innocent people, day after day, in own county and others, covertly and overtly.

 

[Bocefish]

Huh, I had no clue RP wrote a book about the abortion issue. Too bad it's out of print and $600 for the one for sale. I wonder if there is an ebook anywhere for download?

http://www.amazon.com/Challenge-Liberty ... B003P9VODK

 

[Nordling]

Abortion is a very important issue and I don't want to minimize its importance or relevance.

But... I find it interesting though that this is now at the forefront of attention of debates, talks shows, news, whatever... while we are now currently/actively invading other countries and actively preparing for yet another war RIGHT NOW.
Also while also the economy is collapsing before our eyes and SIGNIFICANT things are happening in Europe economically that will likely impact us at some point..

Just seems like a good diversionary tactic to distract us from some MAJOR things going on right now.

Topics like abortion do a great good job of keeping the public focused on something they can debate about for hours upon hours, all the while distracting us from the other crap that is going on.

I also find it interesting when government wants to have some hand in the regulation or influence of things like abortions (which we know is a morality issue) but then has no problems whatsoever invading countries and killing and dehumanizing innocent people, day after day, in own county and others, covertly and overtly.

Agree. And that's why such "issues" are called "wedge issues." They always slink out into the public eye when the real issues are too difficult or uncomfortable to deal with. This is true on both sides of the aisle.

 

[LeenaLiberty]

[/quote]Agree. And that's why such "issues" are called "wedge issues." They always slink out into the public eye when the real issues are too difficult or uncomfortable to deal with. This is true on both sides of the aisle.[/quote]

Yeah you're right.
Sometimes I think "politics" in and of itself is just one big wedge issue...
A wedgie, so to speak... stuck up there in your ass, very annoying at times and can give you a callus.


My lame attempt to make some humour before i go to bed...

 

[LeenaLiberty]

Huh, I had no clue RP wrote a book about the abortion issue. Too bad it's out of print and $600 for the one for sale. I wonder if there is an ebook anywhere for download?

Whao, 600$?!
I have this book somewhere... I need to dig it up!
Or I may have sold it to half priced books.Shit...

There is a great place called BraveNewBooks, where I buy most of my Ron Paul stuff and other "suppressed information books." I will see if they have any copies (for cheap) and let you know...

 

[Bocefish]

When it comes voting time, the majority of people are going to be focusing on issues of the economy, jobs, gas prices... Abortion will not even factor into a minute percentage of voters mind while at the voting booths. How this Iran/Israel dilemma turns out will likely be a determining factor too.

 

[Poker_Babe]

Huh, I had no clue RP wrote a book about the abortion issue. Too bad it's out of print and $600 for the one for sale. I wonder if there is an ebook anywhere for download?

Whao, 600$?!
I have this book somewhere... I need to dig it up!
Or I may have sold it to half priced books.Shit...

There is a great place called BraveNewBooks, where I buy most of my Ron Paul stuff and other "suppressed information books." I will see if they have any copies (for cheap) and let you know...

I LOVE BraveNewBooks!!!! I love Erin Cassity too.

 

[LeenaLiberty]

I LOVE BraveNewBooks!!!! I love Erin Cassity too.

You do....... ??!
Hmmm, we have to know each other somehow outside of webcamming...
We'll talk.

 

[LadyLuna]

I'm wondering when this thread got taken over by the abortion debate, but I feel like I can't keep quiet about it.

With the easy access to contraceptives and loads of people who want children but cannot have them on their own, the need for elective abortions is specious at best. The Medical Necessity argument is another Straw-Man, it was always legal, maybe not codified but it was common law.

1. Not every woman can have contraception. I'm not able to have any hormone based contraception because they seem to push me towards bipolar-disorder, which my biological mother had. Know how much a RELIABLE non-hormone based contraceptive that isn't a condom is gonna cost me? $1000 . Know how long it's gonna take me to save up $1000 at my current income? I don't feel like sharing that, but rest assured, I'm praying for the lottery right now.

Know what my other option is? Wake up at 8am two days a week until I finally get through to the one place that offers income-based discounts. But, when I don't get to sleep until 3am at the earliest because of the best hours for camming... sorry, I'm not capable of surviving on 5 hours of sleep. So my choice is fork over $1000 or make myself sick trying to get it. So easy to get birth control. :roll:

2. When abortions were illegal... how the fuck was a girl who had a medical problem supposed to find a doctor who was capable of performing one safely?

Many who want to end Abortion (such as myself) merely want to end Abortion because they find the practice completely barbaric and see zero reason for such barbarism

For the record, I could never see myself getting an abortion.

But this is supposed to be the land of the FREE. We are supposed to be FREE to do what we want. Just because I don't like that guys are allowed to walk around topless, doesn't mean I can make it a law that they have to cover up.

The reason for not having a baby... hm, I can think of plenty of reasons to not want to have a baby. And not wanting to have a baby is a perfectly valid reason to have an abortion. Think about it man! How many kids today have trouble believing in themselves because they don't feel wanted and loved by their parents? If you force women to keep their kids, how much worse would it get? What would happen to a kid who finds out that his mother wanted to abort, but couldn't? What will that do to the poor kid's self-worth? I don't even want to think about it!

In my case... it was actually advised that my mother abort me. And she didn't. Know what that means to me? Have you any idea how much that one simple fact has meant to me? Do you know where I would be right now if I didn't know that? Most likely, I'd be six feet under, and would've been there in high school. If abortion wasn't an option? Then I'd never know if she kept me because she wanted to, or because she had to. And my depression always focuses on just how much worse my life has made those I love. Where the hell would my depression have gone if I thought for one second that my mother didn't want me, but had to keep me because abortion wasn't an option?

So here's a case for you: woman's on birth control. Her husband's had the operation to be infertile. Somehow, she still gets pregnant. Is it possible? YES! That's how my baby brother was made. Luckily for him, his parents loved him all the more. But it might've killed my mother to have him.

As for Rights. Rights are not absolutes. Rights have limits, end points.

I agree with that point, except in ONE area. The right to keep our bodies and minds healthy and whole is always ours. And sometimes, that requires an abortion.

Did you know: Having a baby takes a tole on the mother's physical and mental health? Even if she doesn't keep the baby, it will still be there. There are so many hormones released during pregnancy, some women go insane from it!

Are you saying that women who are at risk for such a thing shouldn't be allowed to abort? Again, if abortion isn't legal, what doctor is going to be experienced enough to trust with such a delicate operation?

----

If I recall correctly, Ron Paul thinks that abortions are not MORAL, but that there should be no LEGAL issue with them. I have to agree.

 

[Shaun__]

In my case... it was actually advised that my mother abort me. And she didn't. Know what that means to me? Have you any idea how much that one simple fact has meant to me? Do you know where I would be right now if I didn't know that? Most likely, I'd be six feet under, and would've been there in high school. If abortion wasn't an option? Then I'd never know if she kept me because she wanted to, or because she had to. And my depression always focuses on just how much worse my life has made those I love. Where the hell would my depression have gone if I thought for one second that my mother didn't want me, but had to keep me because abortion wasn't an option?

My mother was told not to have me as well. Doctors are assholes.

 

[LeenaLiberty]

I want to start a liberty Quote-a-thon...

What is your favorite liberty minded quote... or quote by liberty minded individuals... ?


Just to start....

“Things do not change; we change.”
Henry David Thoreau