Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
Not according to the National Cancer Institute:
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/abortion-miscarriage
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/abortion-miscarriage
Well I can't say that I've researched the link between cancer and abortions very thoroughly. I'm only going on some conversations I had with a few Armenian girls in my Medical Assisting class a few years back. They where telling me how birth control was illegal but abortions where legal there when their mothers and grandmothers where at the age of being able to get pregnant. And how after getting so many abortions done, they ended up getting cancer of the uterus. IDK, maybe they do it differently over there, or maybe it's evolved since then. But to tell you the truth, I'm very skeptical of anything the government has to tell me (hence the .gov in your link).Nordling said:Not according to the National Cancer Institute:
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/abortion-miscarriage
I understand. I try to be skeptical about everything, including Armenian ladies I may run into while taking a class. But we do have to start somewhere for information and I tend to start with mainstream sources--but still like to confirm it with a few unrelated sources.Poker_Babe said:Well I can't say that I've researched the link between cancer and abortions very thoroughly. I'm only going on some conversations I had with a few Armenian girls in my Medical Assisting class a few years back. They where telling me how birth control was illegal but abortions where legal there when their mothers and grandmothers where at the age of being able to get pregnant. And how after getting so many abortions done, they ended up getting cancer of the uterus. IDK, maybe they do it differently over there, or maybe it's evolved since then. But to tell you the truth, I'm very skeptical of anything the government has to tell me (hence the .gov in your link).Nordling said:Not according to the National Cancer Institute:
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/abortion-miscarriage
Nordling said:Straw Man? No, there ARE people who want to take away women's rights regarding control of their own bodies, and I wonder the motives when someone posts an anecdote about someone who has been less than responsible--when the topic is about EVERYONE's rights, not just one miscreant. Have you even been listening to such wonders of intellect lately like Rick Santorum? He not only wants to make abortions a crime (of the provider) but wants to outlaw contraception in any form (other than the stupid "aspirin between the knees" joke).
Personally I don't think it's a good idea to use the poor choices of the few to make illegal, the options of the many. Yes, some people lead irresponsible lives, they casually have unprotected sex, some people eat too much junk food, some people jaywalk, some people don't wash behind their ears.... blah blah.
To me, it's ironic that so many people who scream about "Freedom" appear to want to deny freedom to others.
OMG, yeah totally, how'd I forget to mention Laci & Conner's Law?!?!Bocefish said:Some laws are even more confusing in certain situations like Laci and Conner's Law
http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/abortio ... 32504.html
hillstrand said:Nordling said:Straw Man? No, there ARE people who want to take away women's rights regarding control of their own bodies, and I wonder the motives when someone posts an anecdote about someone who has been less than responsible--when the topic is about EVERYONE's rights, not just one miscreant. Have you even been listening to such wonders of intellect lately like Rick Santorum? He not only wants to make abortions a crime (of the provider) but wants to outlaw contraception in any form (other than the stupid "aspirin between the knees" joke).
Personally I don't think it's a good idea to use the poor choices of the few to make illegal, the options of the many. Yes, some people lead irresponsible lives, they casually have unprotected sex, some people eat too much junk food, some people jaywalk, some people don't wash behind their ears.... blah blah.
To me, it's ironic that so many people who scream about "Freedom" appear to want to deny freedom to others.
It is a Straw-man, in so far as your reply was a fake argument.
"insofar" is one word; just thought you'd like to know. You should look up "strawman." You obviously don't understand what it means. Calling my reply "fake" doesn't make it so. You're making an unsupported assertion. The equivalent of calling someone a name. Meaningless
Many who want to end Abortion (such as myself) merely want to end Abortion because they find the practice completely barbaric and see zero reason for such barbarism. It is fallacious and completely dishonest to argue that anyone who wants to end Abortion wants to take away Women's Rights.
No, not dishonest at all. Making abortion illegal, which I assume is what you want, does indeed take away women's rights. Calling it "barbaric" adds nothing to your argument; you're merely characterizing your personal "feelings" with a word. ALSO, the equivalent of calling someone a name. Meaningless.
As for Rights. Rights are not absolutes. Rights have limits, end points. The Question is when does a Woman's right to govern her body and her reproduction end and the Right to Life come into play. Some Abortionists want to go beyond the Supreme Court's decision and allow abortion to happen at any point during the pregnancy, including one day before the due date and infanticide for infants born during the 'procedure'. Your argument was an evasion of the Moral and ethical questions the issue of abortion brings up. It is not a simple medical procedure like hernia repair.
"Some Abortionists" Yeah, and some people want to make child abuse legal. So what? Pointing to the worst cases of humanity does not confer that stain to anyone else. Hernia repair is not as simple as you may think. Any surgery has risks. Roe v Wade, btw, does NOT allow unquestioned abortions during ANY STAGE OF PREGNANCY. Only during the first trimester. Any abortions later than that are strictly regulated.
As for using poor choices of individuals to make something illegal... So I take it you are pretty much against Progressive politics because this is American Liberalism in a nutshell.
Sorry. I have no idea what you just said. The labels you're using mean different things for different people in different places, times and people. I think we can avoid them in this thread since "liberal, conservative, progressive, etc." all mean different things to different people.
As for Rick Santorum... He is not actually a Conservative. Oh, he is a Christian Moralizer but that doesn't equal a Conservative. Conservatives understand Big Government runs entirely counter to the aims of Conservatism which is Liberty. Rick Santorum believes you can govern people into better people, a Progressive Idea.
True Scotsman argument. No thanks. I'm not biting.
As for your remarks about Freedom. There are ways of living that breed Individual achievement, stable society, and preserves Liberty for future Generations. This is Social Conservatism in a nutshell. America has been going downhill since Johnson's 'Great Society' and the counter-culture revolution of the 60s. Look up Rome, panem et circenses.
Yeah, ending segregation, Jim Crow laws, reducing poverty, and expanding the right to vote to all Americans sure sucked. (SARCASM)
The real Irony is Liberals shrieking about Freedom when they are the party that believes Government can build a perfect Society...
Ha ha! Now THIS is a strawman. Attributing beliefs, thoughts or statements onto a group or an indivdual that they've NEVER made.
Gee. Sorry to hear that. But please show where I've called anyone on here a name. I haven't, nor have I made any "wild accusations." As far as assumptions, I generally assume we're talking in English and go from there. Sorry if we disagree on Ron Paul and stuff but I think a good debate is fun.Bocefish said:I've given up replying to Nordling due to his wild accusations, name calling, assumptions and all around ridiculous spin tactics.
I think you're looking at this the wrong way. I don't feel as though the majority of people who want abortions to be illegal feel this way because they think mothers of unwanted pregnancies should be punished. It has to do more with wanting to protect the life of what they believe *is* a human being, and a child human being at that.SweepTheLeg said:I'm often curious to those who are against abortion being legal are also against the government and their tax dollars being used to help provide any help to the poor single mother raise her child and instead should be punished to raise her child by herself because that is how unwanted pregnancies should be viewed as- a punishment.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_12.aspAlthough the watery environment in which he lives presents small opportunity for crying, which does require air, the unborn knows how to cry, and given a chance to do so, he will. A doctor ". . . injected an air bubble into the baby’s amniotic sac and then took x-rays. It so happened that the air bubble covered the baby’s face. The whole procedure had no doubt given the little fellow quite a bit of jostling about, and the moment that he had air to inhale and exhale they heard the clear sound of a protesting wail emitting from the uterus. Late that same night, the mother awakened her doctor with a telephone call, to report that when she lay down to sleep the air bubble got over the baby’s head again, and he was crying so loudly he was keeping both her and her husband awake. The doctor advised her to prop herself up-right with pillows so that the air could not reach the baby’s head, which was by now in the lower part of the uterus." Day & Liley, Modern Motherhood, Random House, 1969, pp. 50-51
Poker_Babe said:I think you're looking at this the wrong way. I don't feel as though the majority of people who want abortions to be illegal feel this way because they think mothers of unwanted pregnancies should be punished. It has to do more with wanting to protect the life of what they believe *is* a human being, and a child human being at that.SweepTheLeg said:I'm often curious to those who are against abortion being legal are also against the government and their tax dollars being used to help provide any help to the poor single mother raise her child and instead should be punished to raise her child by herself because that is how unwanted pregnancies should be viewed as- a punishment.
This is where I struggle on the legality issue of abortion. And I do separate abortion into two issues, that of legality, and that of morality. Because I do not believe that just because someone finds something morally wrong, it should be made against the law.
This country was built on the principle of everyone having the right to do whatever they want to just so long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. So it's really more a question of at what point does a human fetus have a right to life? At birth? At conception? At first heart beat? Second trimester? Third trimester?
Like I said, I still struggle with this myself.
Bocefish said:A very controversial subject indeed.
More food for thought...
What about prenatal screening and you discover your child has Downs Syndrome or some other life altering disorder??
It's nowhere near a black and white issue... so many gray areas to consider in each and every case.
OMG. It's out of print and the one used seller on Amazon wants $600 for it. How funny is that?LeenaLiberty said:
One of the best books on the abortion issue.
Have ya'll read it?
Poker_Babe said:Huh, I had no clue RP wrote a book about the abortion issue. Too bad it's out of print and $600 for the one for sale. I wonder if there is an ebook anywhere for download?
Agree. And that's why such "issues" are called "wedge issues." They always slink out into the public eye when the real issues are too difficult or uncomfortable to deal with. This is true on both sides of the aisle.LeenaLiberty said:Abortion is a very important issue and I don't want to minimize its importance or relevance.
But... I find it interesting though that this is now at the forefront of attention of debates, talks shows, news, whatever... while we are now currently/actively invading other countries and actively preparing for yet another war RIGHT NOW.
Also while also the economy is collapsing before our eyes and SIGNIFICANT things are happening in Europe economically that will likely impact us at some point..
Just seems like a good diversionary tactic to distract us from some MAJOR things going on right now.
Topics like abortion do a great good job of keeping the public focused on something they can debate about for hours upon hours, all the while distracting us from the other crap that is going on.
I also find it interesting when government wants to have some hand in the regulation or influence of things like abortions (which we know is a morality issue) but then has no problems whatsoever invading countries and killing and dehumanizing innocent people, day after day, in own county and others, covertly and overtly.
Poker_Babe said:Huh, I had no clue RP wrote a book about the abortion issue. Too bad it's out of print and $600 for the one for sale. I wonder if there is an ebook anywhere for download?
LeenaLiberty said:Poker_Babe said:Huh, I had no clue RP wrote a book about the abortion issue. Too bad it's out of print and $600 for the one for sale. I wonder if there is an ebook anywhere for download?
Whao, 600$?!
I have this book somewhere... I need to dig it up!
Or I may have sold it to half priced books.Shit...
There is a great place called BraveNewBooks, where I buy most of my Ron Paul stuff and other "suppressed information books." I will see if they have any copies (for cheap) and let you know...
Poker_Babe said:I LOVE BraveNewBooks!!!! I love Erin Cassity too.
hillstrand said:With the easy access to contraceptives and loads of people who want children but cannot have them on their own, the need for elective abortions is specious at best. The Medical Necessity argument is another Straw-Man, it was always legal, maybe not codified but it was common law.
Many who want to end Abortion (such as myself) merely want to end Abortion because they find the practice completely barbaric and see zero reason for such barbarism
As for Rights. Rights are not absolutes. Rights have limits, end points.
LadyLuna said:In my case... it was actually advised that my mother abort me. And she didn't. Know what that means to me? Have you any idea how much that one simple fact has meant to me? Do you know where I would be right now if I didn't know that? Most likely, I'd be six feet under, and would've been there in high school. If abortion wasn't an option? Then I'd never know if she kept me because she wanted to, or because she had to. And my depression always focuses on just how much worse my life has made those I love. Where the hell would my depression have gone if I thought for one second that my mother didn't want me, but had to keep me because abortion wasn't an option?