Incel (Involuntary Celibacy)

[heybarkeep]

Social Darwinism is a fun idea to play around with.

Very fun. Saw a poster use futile and wasn't going to let an opportunity to go full Darwin pass me by.

So applied to incels long term ...they deserve our thanks.

Cup half full kind of guy. Mr. Brightside over here.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

are you patronizing the female gender?

No, absolutely not. In fact I believe women are not the primary object of their desire. What they really want is control over them (see the mass rape fantasies and the killings targets - isn't this the ultimate form of control? Having the power of life and death over somebody?). They want to feel strong over the weak, as the article pointed out. And this "weak" - actual, real, or even only perceived as such - may also vary/could be anyone, even one member of their incel movement/"Go kill yoursel). Not a coincidence that even when when they find a woman, it's again all about the control. As perfectly portaited here:"

"Eventually Lepine found a woman who liked him a little, and she became pregnant. For Lepine this was a solution, she couldn't get away if they had a child together, and he would have a son. Unfortunately for Lepine his girlfriend decided she didn't want a kid, and told him she was getting an abortion. For Lepine this was too much, and he decided to take the ultimate revenge on all the feminists he could."

So what they are looking for is not being in a relationship (they are not capable of any kind of relationship at all) with a woman as an equal partner, they are seeking for an easy manipulated puppet. But ultimatley, as said in the article, they are the weaks and the puppets. Not a coincidence that they themselves are easily manipulated and often linked with the far right because they also display the typical traits of the nazi personality.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

*they are not capacle of any kind of relationship at all, even with other men or other people in general.

 

[heybarkeep]

No, absolutely not.

Good to hear. We don't take kindly to those that choose to do so around these parts.

they are seeking for an easy manipulated puppet.

they themselves are easily manipulated

they are the weaks and the puppets.

I'm humbled by such mimicry. Imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery. Perhaps you aren't as simple as you once suggested. Happy birthday dude.

 

[SaffronBurke]

Probably because this is one thing they're actually held accountable for.They had two of their subreddits banned over threats of violence against other men, once when a member was posting about his plans to castrate his "Chad" roommate, and another time when they were actively trying to convince one of their own members to kill himself because it "never gets any better".
This was after a BUNCH of posts where they threatened violence against women, threads where they discussed how to fake being underage so they could try to fuck 14 year olds, and another where one individual claimed he impregnated a woman and would like to try to fuck his own daughter once she turns 12. None of that got the subreddit banned, but threaten to cut off one dick and down it goes.

From my understanding, all of their hate-spewing against women was defended as "we're just venting". Never mind that Elliot Rodgers was definitely NOT "just venting" and they have this obsessive hero worship of him. Supposedly the "cut your roommate's dick off" was actually "encouraging violent behavior" and therefore why the subreddit was finally closed. However, they've definitely actively encouraged violence against women and been left alone over it.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

No, absolutely not. In fact I believe women are not the primary object of their desire. What they really want is control over them (see the mass rape fantasies and the killings targets - isn't this the ultimate form of control? Having the power of life and death over somebody?). They want to feel strong over the weak, as the article pointed out. And this "weak" - actual, real, or even only perceived as such - may also vary/could be anyone, even one member of their incel movement/"Go kill yoursel). Not a coincidence that even when when they find a woman, it's again all about the control. As perfectly portaited here:"

"Eventually Lepine found a woman who liked him a little, and she became pregnant. For Lepine this was a solution, she couldn't get away if they had a child together, and he would have a son. Unfortunately for Lepine his girlfriend decided she didn't want a kid, and told him she was getting an abortion. For Lepine this was too much, and he decided to take the ultimate revenge on all the feminists he could."

I don't find that rationalization sufficient. Not in the least. "Seeking to control" has also popped up in enough writings about serial killers/mass murderers that I am starting to view it as a cliché.

The person I mentioned earlier with rage issues...

Spoiler

Someone I knew was driving. Multi-lane expressway. Car in the next lane slowly passes alongside, had literally nothing to do with us, but it sent him into a rage. He hits the brake, swerves over to get behind them, and for the next 5-10 minutes I am fearing for my life as he screams, tailgates, gestures for the other car to pull over, then continues to tailgate as they sped up to 90 mph to try and get away from him.
Reason: The guy had serious rage issues. No expectations of someone else's ability to drive, the other driver didn't even do anything wrong; this just happened to be where he was triggered. He also had a number of smashed dishes, destroyed personal property, scenes in public, etc. to his credit.

I heard a fair amount of talk over the years about why this individual was so f*cked up. I heard stories from his family about how chaotic his childhood was, how abusive his father was to the family (until he abandoned them), etc. And like Lepine, he was rejected by the military, had issues at work, unstable relationships etc. He was also very abusive to those he perceived as weaker, and a meek introvert when he was in situations where he felt inferior.

Distilling that guy's dysfunctions and behaviors down to a "what he really wanted was control" is, quite frankly, shallow enough to fit in a thimble. The same is true with the conclusions you are coming to based on Lepine imo.

I can also relate to LePine's upbringing in a number of ways. And also his desire for revenge (though not his choice of targets)...

Years ago, somebody pulled a real shit move on me. It was painful, emotionally taxing enough that it made me physically sick. Then it turned to rage and murderous fantasies of revenge. Then depression and disgust at myself for what I was thinking about. Then I would shut down for a while emotionally.

Hard to say how long I went through this, it was several months at least. I kept cycling through it: 1)pain/sick, 2) rage/murderous fantasies, 3)self-loathing/sick, 4)shutdown... Fortunately, for whatever reason I didn't act on the rage/murder impulse; but if I had, I would say anyone popping up afterwards simplistically explaining "he really just wanted control" would amount to nothing more than a fool professing to be wise.

It's a dark valley to walk through Simple Guy. You ever been there?

So what they are looking for is not being in a relationship (they are not capable of any kind of relationship at all) with a woman as an equal partner, they are seeking for an easy manipulated puppet. But ultimatley, as said in the article, they are the weaks and the puppets. Not a coincidence that they themselves are easily manipulated and often linked with the far right because they also display the typical traits of the nazi personality.

The "nazi personality"??? What is that exactly? Control of a bureaucracy? Sort of like the "stalinist personality"?

A long time ago, I got to listen to a Holocaust survivor speak. She is one of the reasons no one is ever likely to convince me the Holocaust didn't happen, no matter how many exaggerations or liars seeking to profit from it are uncovered. She seemed very genuine and matter of fact, not trying to emotionally manipulate with horror.

She finished her talk off with (paraphrasing here) "When you see a group of people being demonized and dehumanized, don't go along with it".
Not "when you see the swastika,"
Or "when you see the Jews being targeted,"
Or "when you see the alt-right,"
Or "when you see misogyny,"
Or "when you see the women being targeted,"
But "when you see a group of people being demonized and dehumanized"

To the extent that Incels are even a group, that is exactly what you and a handful of feminist writers at major outlets are doing Simple Guy. Yes, I have seen some screenshots of some appalling text. If the "they" you are blaming for this are the individual men/women who posted such things for whatever reason, or the moderator of a forum who allowed/encouraged it, or individual mass killers, I would say you have a point.

On the other hand, when you start trying to cement the association between "them" and figures such as Jordan Peterson, entire political movements, or thought crimes that have a constantly expanding definition just so you can call for blanket condemnation, then I begin to wonder whether you are a victim of mind control or a would-be practitioner.

Now you can point out that there are apparently incels doing this as well, and I would agree. But that is no reason for you and I to follow their example, or the example set by certain male/female harlots who write for outlets such as the Guardian and the BBC.

Capisce?

*they are not capacle of any kind of relationship at all, even with other men or other people in general.

You should draw a picture of them with really big noses.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm humbled by such mimicry. Imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery. Perhaps you aren't as simple as you once suggested. Happy birthday dude.

Usually people who like/or need to be (constantly) flattered have a very fragile and insecure kind of Self, which is why they need a constant validation. Just like any mental dictator. Those who instead enjoy flattering these personalities, lacking of their own personality and being themselve insecure, desperately need to seek and find, in a sort of cultist way if you will, a "father" figure, a pretty authoritarian Über-Ich who set the universal norm to which everything and everybody has to be reduced/conformed. Those who differ - who by the way also intimidate them - need to be epurated and brought back to the boring universal orthodoxy. Sad! Also, both of these kind of personalities are very easy to trick and manipulate.

Just reminescesces from old high school books, dude. Might have made few mistakes here and there.

Personally, I don't like to be flattered, I like people who impress me. Thank you but it's the wrong month.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

@justjoinedtopost

JJTP, dude that was long... Got no time now

 

[heybarkeep]

Might have made few mistakes here and there.

No worries. Your English isn't half bad.

Thank you but it's the wrong month.

Wow, can't believe you'd lie like that. On the internet of all places.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

@justjoinedtopost

JJTP, dude that was long... Got no time now

Yes, apologies for that. Read and respond at your leisure, or ignore it entirely if you prefer (I am quite content being the only person who reads what I write ).

Given your concern for women/feminists though, I would like to bring another movement to your attention which is reportedly responsible for them

• receiving rape/death threats
• being stalked
• being assaulted
• being targeted for harassment at work/being fired
• being falsely accused of committing criminal acts/violence
• being doxxed
• being banned from social media

https://handsacrosstheaislewomen.com/2017/02/08/feminist-in-exile/

 

[Bocefish]

Ultimate incel?

 

[SaffronBurke]

Just came across this on Reddit, and yowza.

Yep, let's just ignore all the plot points of the movie, Fiona left Farquad for Shrek because of height, nothing else.

 

[Starman]

It is like being angry over bad driving; the expectation is that everyone can drive, the reality is that bad drivers are common, expected, and not unusual. Anger when reality dashes expectation is pointless..

This is great!

 

[heybarkeep]

IncelTears seems awesome. I can see bleeding hearts and incels whining about it being a hate sub but that is nonsense. Certain behaviors and ways of thinking should be hated and shamed. Any form of acceptance is harmful in the long run.

 

[AudriTwo]

i find it very interesting how incels bleed over into the MGTOW movement. (which is basically a 21st century bachelor and not a new concept, but okay.)

 

[Ambers Troll]

i find it very interesting how incels bleed over into the MGTOW movement.

Hopefully the MGTOW view develops in the right direction (still at the newborn stage); unlike where the male incel groups seem to have gone. If it manages to stay away from misinformed views regarding natural selection and eugenics then it should be a healthy thing for men.

The great thing about MGTOW is that you can keep all your friendships with women, the sex part doesn't get in the way, and you can direct all your energy on other things. I think very young men would find this challenging but for adult men (mid 20's on) it becomes a genuine option.

One positive for older women in particular is that for these men, women of all ages become beautiful/ interesting in a way that basing interest on sexual/ love interactions doesn't. Absence (not really abstinence lol) does make the heart grow fonder.

 

[CoffeeKnight]

Hopefully the MGTOW view develops in the right direction (still at the newborn stage); unlike where the male incel groups seem to have gone. If it manages to stay away from misinformed views regarding natural selection and eugenics then it should be a healthy thing for men.

The great thing about MGTOW is that you can keep all your friendships with women, the sex part doesn't get in the way, and you can direct all your energy on other things. I think very young men would find this challenging but for adult men (mid 20's on) it becomes a genuine option.

One positive for older women in particular is that for these men, women of all ages become beautiful/ interesting in a way that basing interest on sexual/ love interactions doesn't. Absence (not really abstinence lol) does make the heart grow fonder.

I've never heard of MGTOW. Tell me, do I want to Google it or will I just further lose faith in humanity?

 

[zippypinhead]

I've never heard of MGTOW. Tell me, do I want to Google it or will I just further lose faith in humanity?

Men Going Their Own Way
Essentially, on the face of it, it's a title that men apply to themselves to identify that they are uninterested in long-term relationships. As @AudriTwo put it, a 21st Century title for confirmed bachelorhood. I have no idea how toxic that particular subculture is. I didn't feel compelled to dig too deep. I think there's inherently a bit of an off quality to one being so wrapped up in a single part of one's identity like that, one feels compelled to label it, and seek out groups to talk about it.

 

[yummybrownfox]

Thank you but it's the wrong month.

Didn't I wish you a happy birthday recently, but the month was wrong...or am I thinking of someone else? Lol. You should contact ACF admin.

 

[Ambers Troll]

I never knew of the term MGTOW either, but just like the term incel it resonates. Thanks for the info @AudriTwo being a confirmed bachelor is almost the same thing in that it is about freedom.

It's so ironic that one of the best public voices for men is a woman. She even understands so well why men don't speak up, use their voice as women do.

For those who can't be bothered listening to all of it jump to the 20 minute mark (includes MGTOW, pick up sites etc.). It is highly relevant to this site, I see members spend/ visit camgirls for every reason that she lists about finding spaces for men. There is a few things slightly off, but not too many... this well thought out commentary is pretty close to spot on in my opinion.

 

[AudriTwo]

Men Going Their Own Way
Essentially, on the face of it, it's a title that men apply to themselves to identify that they are uninterested in long-term relationships. As @AudriTwo put it, a 21st Century title for confirmed bachelorhood. I have no idea how toxic that particular subculture is. I didn't feel compelled to dig too deep. I think there's inherently a bit of an off quality to one being so wrapped up in a single part of one's identity like that, one feels compelled to label it, and seek out groups to talk about it.

Like any internet subgroup, it can get pretty toxic. Where instead of focusing on their own endeavors and self improvement, a good handful spend their time hating women and overall misogynistic. Here is a 20 minute video showing some of the assholes of the movement.

 

[heybarkeep]

They seem pretty nutty too at first glance. Some perfectly reasonable beliefs but they really turn heel on certain topics. The levels thing is really dorky, no offense meant to any that identify as MGTOW. Alright, maybe a little offense meant. These labels and groups seem unnecessary. Going off a quick look at wikipedia.

 

[Spacecadet_]

I know people who have gone years without sex because they just failed to find a mutual connection for that long and don't sleep around. But here is my understanding of the modern "incel" movement: "No woman wants my dick? Well fuck all women then! I'm NICE and they STILL won't have sex with me! What shallow idiots, and sluts, I don't want pussy anyways!"

First of all, said guys are probably not nice. If you can't get anyone to have sex with you you're probably overly pushy, annoying, or just tooo awkward and shy... if thats the case, work on yourself!

I also want to make the comment that being physically less attractive does not disqualify you from having a great sex life. My ex BF was definitely not someone that would be considered conventionally attractive; he wasnt in shape, had bad acne, fucked up teeth, some friends at the time even said rude things to me about how I could "do better" or find a cute guy. Yet I have never been more attracted to someone. This feeling grew over time, time that we had spent together as friends where he was respectful, not pushy, etc. I think some guys get so worked up with insecurity and pent up sexual energy that they forget how to let the positive parts of themselves shine through, and just immediately freak out when a girl doesn't like them like that. (Personally) I am not as visual of a person as alot of guys tend to be in my experience. So appearance is definitely not a deal breaker for me, I can fall in love with someone's energy and become very sexually attracted to them.

I know this is kind of controversial of a topic and hopefully I didn't offend anybody. From what I have searched online and stuff "incel" just seems to be a very negative thing

 

[Ambers Troll]

I know people who have gone years without sex because they just failed to find a mutual connection for that long and don't sleep around.

This is why I eventually opted out; I just didn't see looking as worth it. I like the idea of partnering up but am way too rebellious and unfashionable for most people to even understand my general motivations. I collect and keep friends easily but lose partners fast.
The transition to being finished looking was emotionally rough but filled with exploration. The roughest lesson was my preference for emotional strength, but a deep dislike of selfishness. Real tenderness/ empathy and real strength are challenging to find together, usually one is faked: Added to this these type of people are usually not looking for partners due to their emotional independence and lack of focus on themselves.

Finding a way to release all the energy/ passion that you would reserve for a partner is the challenge. Most are doable with the major exception of someone to actually know you as deeply as a partner can.
I personally really enjoy having someone to give to/ support financially or emotionally. Gifting someone I like is the better option. Supporting someone you like is rewarding too, but doesn't have the same reward as it can make someone not a partner dependent on you.
My niece and nephew are regularly spoiled for instance.

 

[SaffronBurke]

I also want to make the comment that being physically less attractive does not disqualify you from having a great sex life. My ex BF was definitely not someone that would be considered conventionally attractive; he wasnt in shape, had bad acne, fucked up teeth, some friends at the time even said rude things to me about how I could "do better" or find a cute guy. Yet I have never been more attracted to someone. This feeling grew over time, time that we had spent together as friends where he was respectful, not pushy, etc. I think some guys get so worked up with insecurity and pent up sexual energy that they forget how to let the positive parts of themselves shine through, and just immediately freak out when a girl doesn't like them like that. (Personally) I am not as visual of a person as alot of guys tend to be in my experience. So appearance is definitely not a deal breaker for me, I can fall in love with someone's energy and become very sexually attracted to them.

Incels refuse to listen to logic like this, but it's so true! I know so many guys who are, in incel's words, "sub-8" or "sub-7" or whatever, and yet are in long-term relationships because they are nice, and funny, and sweet, and their significant others love their personalities. Looks only get a person so far - a massive douchewad in a pretty package *really* isn't that appealing.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

I would like to bring another movement to your attention

Not cool. I'd say. Also, It's not my job speaking for the transgenders activists/community, because I'm not part of it and they can speak for themselves. Anyway, when hate steps in, we all know it's time to choose love (calling some Jesus meme here), so I'be curios to know what she thinks about Jesus slashing ante litteram any freudian orthodoxy about gender/role fixation, calling for the abolition of any toxic misogynism/feminism, while going quite full fluid mode here, "when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; then will you enter the Kingdom." (Apocrypha Gospels, Thomas, 22). I think you've derailed the thread quite a bit.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Forgot to say: I'm not a pastor/priest or something. Just a thought that I got.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Anyway, when hate steps in, we all know it's time to choose love (calling some Jesus meme here)

Well if you turn that around and say that we should show love to the incels, that's a little bit further than I am willing to go.

I felt a pang of sympathy a time or two digging around on incel.me, and I am willing to call bullshit on the hysteria major outlets are trying to encourage, but that is where I draw the line.

This guy may be able to get closer to showing incels some love than me, plenty of sound advice at least...

 

[Just_A_Guy]

we should show love to the incels

No, wait don't put words in my mouth which I didn't say. My personal opinion is that the only thing we have to tell these incels (and I really want to be quite intentionally harsh here) is to get their asses out of their parents' basement and man up, suggesting to get a job, build their own life, work on themselves, and, most of all, to stop with the entitlement and quit running over women with a van.

Also I'd like to add that I've spent a couple of hours yesterday on reddit and few subforums there trying to understand what reddit is and what discussions are going on there - which I've never did before - and I have to say I found these forums very toxic, full of entitlement, bitterness, revenge from both all the parts (men/women) involved. It's a rabbit hole personally I don't want to dive in and it's not the way I live my life. Now, it's friday, jjtp, and I'm going out, see you here in the next days. I'm always down to share my thoughts.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

No, wait don't put words in my mouth which I didn't say.

I did not intend to put words in your mouth.
I did not say that you said "we should show love to the incels".
I said "Well if you turn that around and say we should show love to the incels".

This was simply my suggestion; reverse the concept and see how it works the other way around.

My personal opinion is that the only thing we have to tell these incels (and I really want to be quite intentionally harsh here) is to get their asses out of their parents' basement and man up, suggesting to get a job, build their own life, work on themselves, and, most of all, to stop with the entitlement and quit running over women with a van.

If you wish to harshly lecture them here about how they need to improve themselves, that is one thing.

Accusing them all of running over women with a vans is a much more serious ideological line to cross.