I accidentally discovered that sites like ppal, amazon, etc. are not discriminating against camgirls

[acep]

I've seen a lot of people say that paypal discriminates against cam girls, that these companies are trying to be the moral police, and so on, and I used to agree. I've always hated people judging cam girls, even really women in general, but after this week I'm sure that's not what's happening here.

I'll try to keep the backstory brief, but I got scammed pretty bad on mfc earlier this year. It wasn't the first time, but it was bad in that it was so obvious, I had screenshots of our conversation before tipping and me contacting her after tipping, plus it was all in mfc mail so they could verify. The only better scenario I can even imagine is her messaging me "haha you've been scammed". I thought this would finally be the time I could get a refund, but mfc didn't even care enough to respond.

I would've quit mfc entirely if it wasn't for 1 girl who I adore and trust. So what I wound up doing is staying but just never tipping anyone but her. This went on for maybe a month until I happened to see a girl advertising videos and said tokens or paypal. I decided to try this since at least I felt I'd be safe. Since then I've actually found more girls who offer this, and it had been going great. I bought lots of stuff and the chargebacks weren't a big deal since I was getting my money back. Until 2 days ago...

I had to initiate a chargeback and got an email from paypal. It said basically 'we've noticed a higher than normal amount of chargebacks and we want to to be happy but we just want you to reassess your transactions because we don't want to have to suspend your account.' And just so we're all on the same page, I tallied up my transactions - 68 total, 10 chargebacks (all successful), 1 pending that I initiated before the email. Even ignoring the pending 1, 10 out of 68 is 14.7%. And really, 4 of my transactions were non cam related, so the real cam % is 10 out of 64 or 15.6%. That's not just bad, that's abysmal. I can't think of any other business that could survive with numbers like that.

I was surprised at first, because my success rate showed I was the wrong party. Most of the girls didn't even respond. Two did and both claimed they'd been busy but would send it, but of course never did or follow up after the first message. But that doesn't matter to paypal, because reversing 15% of transactions is not what they signed up for. They basically told me to stop buying from cam girls without even knowing I was buying cam girls.

And that's the epiphany I had. Paypal, Google, Amazon, they don't hate cam girls, they hate fraud. And I have no doubt that they knew long ago that cam girls equal more fraud than they want to deal with. So I think we can safely stop saying that paypal is discriminating against cam girls. They're just trying to protect themselves and their customers.

 

[Gen]

I wouldn't call this a discovery, people make that point every time the topic comes up. I tend to agree.

That said, there is still an argument to be made that it's still discrimination or redlining. Is justified discrimination not still discrimination?

 

[Serenity_Tam]

Yeah. Right. SOOO many adult workers are just fraudsters. And like no consumer goods businesses are fraudsters. Your experience covers like everyones experience. Oh gees. SO blind I have been.

 

[acep]

I wouldn't call this a discovery, people make that point every time the topic comes up. I tend to agree.

That said, there is still an argument to be made that it's still discrimination or redlining. Is justified discrimination not still discrimination?

Maybe discovery was a bit strong, the main thing that surprised me was that they threatened to suspend my account even though all the chargebacks where in my favor.

To your second question, is it? Maybe not? If a member emails you and asks to buy something but says they'll pay after you send it, is it discrimination to assume they are a scammer? If not, what's the difference?

 

[acep]

Yeah. Right. SOOO many adult workers are just fraudsters. And like no consumer goods businesses are fraudsters. Your experience covers like everyones experience. Oh gees. SO blind I have been.

I didn't say everyone and no one. I said significantly higher than average. Enough higher than average to make it financially wise to not allow for a free site.

 

[Rose]

Dang dude, you do a heck of a lot of chargebacks. There's definitely a common denominator in there.......

 

[AnneDVille]

Do you know why most camgirls don't use paypal?

Because those chargebacks can be done by dicks who received their content too. And they will always be in the 'customer's ' favour.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Dang dude, you do a heck of a lot of chargebacks. There's definitely a common denominator in there.......

Exactly what i was thinking. I've done ONE my entire life.

 

[Guy]

PayPal hasn't always been hostile to adult related stuff.
From 1998 to 2003 PayPal did processes payments for porn sites. They exited the online adult industry in 2003 because the chargebacks became too costly for them.

 

[acep]

Dang dude, you do a heck of a lot of chargebacks. There's definitely a common denominator in there.......

So I buy videos from 6 girls and charge back 1 for no reason, but let the other 5 keep their money?

PayPal hasn't always been hostile to adult related stuff.
From 1998 to 2003 PayPal did processes payments for porn sites. They exited the online adult industry in 2003 because the chargebacks became too costly for them.

Interesting, I've actually never heard that before.

 

[WebcamStartup]

1) Girl shouldn't have been advertising outside payments on MFC to begin with. Without even going back to review their terms, I can tell you this is against it.

2) Girl shouldn't be using PayPal for this kind of stuff to begin with.

3) There's a grip of legit producers / performers that have PayPal horror stories. Hell, one model that I collaborate closely with had her husband's PayPal restricted (not banned) due to association (whether it was same IP or something else, don't know details) when they finally banned her account. Apparently she had a very good year-long streak without issues. Eventually it'll come back and bite you in the ass though. She's legit as hell, too. Just one of many horror stories.


That being said, yes, I won't argue that PayPal hates fraud. They also hate companies sending payroll as "friends and family" transfers to avoid the fees. PayPal doesn't like a lot of things. Accepting payments for adult services happens to be one of them.

 

[Nordling]

Ten chargebacks? WTF? If I were Paypal, I'd boot you.

 

[SaffronBurke]

It's against PayPal's TOS to use it for adult transactions. End of story. They don't even care what we actually do with it. We can create an account with our model name and use it to receive gifts from customers or other models - they'll still close our accounts.

Amazon will close an account for having anything transactional included in the notes of a wishlist, from "spoil me and I'll spoil back", to "get my xxx b/g video if you buy this item". They have stated repeatedly that they are not a payment processor, and their service is meant for sending gifts to friends and family only. However, they aren't as rabid about shutting down accounts as PayPal is, so if you're not blatantly using them for transactions, they won't close your account.

 

[DrWangFei]

So I buy videos from 6 girls and charge back 1 for no reason, but let the other 5 keep their money?

Maybe instead of purchasing videos from MFC rooms, use a clip site to purchase videos. Manyvids, Clips4Sale, IWantClips... a lot of cam performers use these. You purchase and download, there will be no worry about you not getting your videos.

 

[Lintilla]

Maybe discovery was a bit strong, the main thing that surprised me was that they threatened to suspend my account even though all the chargebacks where in my favor.

What's surprising about that? You're a burden on their system either way, whether it's "in [your] favor" or not, and if you're having to initiate chargebacks so often you're obviously doing something wrong. I don't get this at all. After your second or third chargeback, did it ever occur to you to be a bit more careful about who you're sending money to? Or maybe to consider the fact that you're breaking PayPal's TOS by using them for adult transactions in the first place? You're abusing the system. Chargebacks are a last resort, not a form of insurance or a get out of jail free card.

 

[Rose]

So I buy videos from 6 girls and charge back 1 for no reason, but let the other 5 keep their money?



Interesting, I've actually never heard that before.

I'm hoping I misunderstood, but it really sounds like you're choosing to chargeback on girl #6 for no reason and because of that you think the other 5 shouldn't be paid either......... But like others have already said, you really shouldn't be doing like any chargebacks at all. They're a last resort. You definitely sound like you're abusing the system.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Yeah. Right. SOOO many adult workers are just fraudsters. And like no consumer goods businesses are fraudsters. Your experience covers like everyones experience. Oh gees. SO blind I have been.

I can kiiiiiinda see Paypal's side in this. Due to the very nature of camming, it makes sense that there would be more chargebacks than in other consumer goods businesses due to the low barrier to entry. It's not that adult workers are fundamentally less trustworthy than other people, it's just that the business models of most cam sites make it incredibly easy for someone to set up an account, offer something they have no intent on delivering, accept payment, spend payment, go about their way.

I disagree with Paypal's policy of automatically siding with the member in any dispute with a model, but I can understand their wanting to avoid working with individual cam girls in order to mitigate financial loss. They are a business after all. And they do work with MFC now, so I can buy this being a business-minded decision as opposed to moral discrimination.

*mah2cents*

 

[annamaytiddies]

Mmmkay, if PayPal were so accepting towards cam girls, they wouldn't have closed my account and kept my money. I did nothing wrong, zero chargebacks. So there's that.

 

[yummybrownfox]

Ten chargebacks? WTF? If I were Paypal, I'd boot you.

Yeah, that's absolutely ridiculous. He needs to get it together, or he's gonna be on a lot of cam girls' shit lists. We DO talk.

 

[Entertainer33]

There is ebay fraud left and right, and I can use paypal for that. Just saying.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I recently read a biography of Elon Musk, who is the guy behind electric car company Tesla, rocket ship company SpaceX, and a solar energy company Solar City. Elon was also one of the co-founders of Paypal.
According to Elon, the principal reason behind Paypal's success wasn't fancy technology, it was because they provided the lowest transaction cost for sellers doing business on the internet period.
They did that by ruthless eliminating as much fraud as they could in the system, so they've kicked off countries, ISP, and lots of industries. I know this isn't much comfort, but it isn't because PayPal are prudes and they disapprove, hell I'd be willing to bet some of the founders have tipped camgirls in the past, it is strictly business. The adult industry just has had massive amounts fraud, and sadly it hurts everybody the guilty and innocent alike.

 

[EspiKvlt]

I don't understand why you didn't just pay with tokens to begin with when you knew Paypal is anti-sex work? That makes you in the wrong, too.

(also 10 chargebacks out of 68 doesn't seem excessive to you? lol ok.)

 

[Zoomer]

The only message I got from the original post is "I do lots of chargebacks". Erm, congratulations? Bravo?

 

[penfold_43]

10 chargebacks in 68? That's absurdly high, no wonder paypal looked askance at your account. While no great fan of them, I've done several hundred transactions through paypal and charged back exactly one.

 

[acep]

I'm hoping I misunderstood, but it really sounds like you're choosing to chargeback on girl #6 for no reason and because of that you think the other 5 shouldn't be paid either......... But like others have already said, you really shouldn't be doing like any chargebacks at all. They're a last resort. You definitely sound like you're abusing the system.

You misunderstood. Your first message said there was a common denominator, and other people mentioned that you can receive what you purchased and still do a chargeback. I was asking if people are accusing me of randomly picking girls to do chargebacks on, as opposed to what I believe, that they were all legitimate charge backs and I tried to contact them first but was unsuccessful.

I don't understand why you didn't just pay with tokens to begin with when you knew Paypal is anti-sex work? That makes you in the wrong, too.

(also 10 chargebacks out of 68 doesn't seem excessive to you? lol ok.)

I have paid with tokens many times. I've had thousands of dollars of successful purchases on mfc, but I've also had too many where I just outright did not receive what I paid for. Of course the successful greatly outnumbered the not, but the not were enough that I no longer feel it's worth the risk to purchase things using tokens, because I'm not protected with tokens. I don't know that I would say wrong exactly, but yes, I did break their TOS, and that I don't blame them if they delete anyone's account who breaks their rules, that was what I said from the start. Would you also say that you and other cam girls are in the wrong for accepting payment from anti-sex work platforms? I wouldn't.

Quite the opposite, I said it was very excessive. But I feel they were justified. I'm not saying that each one of them decided to randomly scam some people. Maybe one read my email and thought 'I always send stuff right away, so he must be lying and I don't need to check to verify'. So her system works fine as long as she doesn't get interrupted, but if she makes a mistake the purchaser can't prove it with that attitude. Maybe another doesn't even open emails that don't contain money, so again, it works fine unless she misses someone by mistake. Maybe another sent a bad link, but when she read the email saying it was a bad link she thought 'I never send bad links, he must be lying'. They think they are in the right, but that's an awful way to run a business, and at the end of the stay people don't have the stuff they bought.

It's not that adult workers are fundamentally less trustworthy than other people, it's just that the business models of most cam sites make it incredibly easy for someone to set up an account, offer something they have no intent on delivering, accept payment, spend payment, go about their way.

I absolutely agree with every word. Except, as I wrote above, I think that is easier to avoid. I think the more common problem is someone sets up an account, isn't the best at tracking stuff, but thinks they're good at tracking stuff so they ignore people who slip through the cracks. But since they're going to be better about keeping track of their regs, they can still become popular and successful, so it's almost impossible to tell who is safe to buy from.

Maybe instead of purchasing videos from MFC rooms, use a clip site to purchase videos. Manyvids, Clips4Sale, IWantClips... a lot of cam performers use these. You purchase and download, there will be no worry about you not getting your videos.

I haven't used the other 2, but I have used manyvids. Videos are safe because they'll already be uploaded, but you're at your own risk for anything else. Their words were "we do not control model promotions, in fact this one of the features that makes MV stand out and allows us the opportunity to feature such a range and quantity of models. As an unintentional result it can sometimes be the case that model-controlled promotions are not fulfilled, if you feel the model has scammed you you can leave a review regarding your purchase"

Basically, they'll send her a message and ask her to get back to you, but if she doesn't you're out of luck. Also, for the people who say chargebacks should be a last resort, in this example I tried to send her a message on mv first and also emailed her before contacting manyvids. Manyvids helpfully tells me that she saw it. http://i63.tinypic.com/jujslt.jpg If I'm abusing the system, anyone please tell me what I should have done differently.

After your second or third chargeback, did it ever occur to you to be a bit more careful about who you're sending money to?

This is ultimately my question. How do I do this? Only buy stuff from reputable models? Just a week ago I saw a model who I would have considered reputable and popular in the cam community post that a guy didn't deserve something he bought because he didn't wish her happy birthday. A few other models even liked it, and I didn't see anyone say that it was a shady thing to do. How can I be more careful after that. I could not tip that model, but how do I know who might be the next girl to do that? When stuff like that is accepted by the cam community, it seems like the only way to really be careful is to not tip ever/to only tip my reg, which becomes not tip anyone when she retires. Obviously that's not what you want people to do, and that's not what I want to do, but my brain is telling me that's the smartest thing.

 

[AnneDVille]

@acep Have you ever considered... I don't know... talking to these models? You know like... developing some sort of report other than you treating them as you would an online supermarket?

From what I'm reading you seem to scanning thorugh mfc and clip sites and just buying videos and looking out for deals in topics? Which is cool, but it might explain why you have all these unpleasant lost tokens and chargeback experiences.

Treat models like people, get an idea of their room vibe and culture, see how other members interact with them and that will help you know who you are buying from rather than playing smut russian roulette, throwing money around and hoping for the best.
*just me two pennies*

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

@acep Have you ever considered... I don't know... talking to these models? You know like... developing some sort of report other than you treating them as you would an online supermarket?

From what I'm reading you seem to scanning thorugh mfc and clip sites and just buying videos and looking out for deals in topics? Which is cool, but it might explain why you have all these unpleasant lost tokens and chargeback experiences.

Treat models like people, get an idea of their room vibe and culture, see how other members interact with them and that will help you know who you are buying from rather than playing smut russian roulette, throwing money around and hoping for the best.
*just me two pennies*

There is lot victim blaming going on here. In addition to the out and scams which are quite prevalent in the adult industry and not uncommon in camming. The bigger problem is that many camgirls are consistently late in delivering content, and most camgirls are late at times. We have had plenty of camgirls confess on ACF, "I got so bad at finishing custom videos, I stopped offering them." Generally, the models mention one guy that took 6 months to get his video, but I suspect in most cases there is a lot more than one victim. A guy who spent his hard earned money and sent it off to camgirl and never got what they paid for.

Now I know there are some camgirls on ACF, who actually make a point of refunding somebodies money when they can't deliver in reasonably timely manner. I applaud those girls, but I'm convinced they are in a minority.

I also find insulting the insinuation that ACF guys just randomly are looking at a model and throwing tokens at the first model who will agree to the request at a cheap price. I do spend time in a room before buy a skype, or enter a custom video raffle, and I think that applies to most guys on ACF. The only exception is I may pre-order the "girl-girl" videos.from a model I don't know well.

For me (and talking to other members I know I am not alone in this) is less the being scammed by a model one time. It is the model, that I've bought 4 skypes, gotten cookies delivered, won a custom video raffle, and suddenly after buying the 5th skype, I spend 4 months trying to get it scheduled. What prey tell is the secret to knowing the 5th, 8th, or 14th purchase with a model is going to cause headaches?

If a buy a semi-custom product on Etsy and they tell me it will take 2 weeks to get it, and it's been 6 weeks and all I've gotten is excuses. I wouldn't hesitate to cancel and get a refund from PayPal. I dare say if I applied that same standard to stuff I buy from camgirls more than 30 days late, I cancel and get a refund, my chargeback ratio would be a lot higher than 10 out 68.

 

[Zoomer]

Lets put this in easy to understand terms.

If you put your hand on a hot plate, what happens? You get burnt.
Next time... you put your hand on it thinking it was a one off. Guess what? You got burnt again.

So the third time... what do you think? From your posts you smack that hand down as fast as possible "I believe... I believ... FUCK THAT'S HOT!".

*facepalm emote 9000*

Yes, this is an extreme (farcical) example. After all, only 10% or 15% of the times you get burnt. But the reality is you don't adjust your behaviour. You don't seem to weigh up the risks. You don't seem to consider anything at all...
Instead, you rely upon Paypal to sort it for you. "I'm safe, I'll do a charge back". Then when Paypal finally go "you know, you're a shit customer..." you write a post here which really seems to serve no purpose. What, exactly, are you trying to achieve? This isn't something worthy of a 16 page peer reviewed scientific paper. A person who is abusing a process is a person who is abusing the process. Lets make another bad comparison.

You can get insured to drive a car. Means if you have an accident everything is paid for, right? But that doesn't mean you just drive around ramming into things. Or drive around with your eyes shut. Or drive around talking on the phone, over the limit, with a bottle of Jack in your hand and a penis pump enlarging your manhood... After one accident your premium goes up. After another, it goes up some more. But there (soon) comes a point where insurance companies say "you're a shit driver, we do not want to insure you - you cost us more than we make".

Look, you suck at getting what you want. Whether that's because you have incredibly bad judgement, or whether you see a "deal" and think "Paypal will save me with their money back, so there's no drawback going for this 'too good to be true' deal available!"

Bottom line - we can't help you. If, after 15 examples of being conned, you still cannot discern or learn to either spot the con, or have some self control, then you're beyond help. We are not, in 10 lines or less, come up with some sage advice that renders your issues gone.

Paypal have said as much - you suck at being a customer. Change your habits or move on.

 

[AmberCutie]

Instead, you rely upon Paypal to sort it for you. "I'm safe, I'll do a charge back". Then when Paypal finally go "you know, you're a shit customer..." you write a post here which really seems to serve no purpose. What, exactly, are you trying to achieve?

Totally.

If anything this proves why PayPal IS discriminatory against cam girls, because customers fall back on this so easily after making bad decisions over and over again, and create a precedent.

He chose PayPal instead of MFC tokens because he thought it would be easier to get refunds when his bad decisions (or impatience??? we don't really know how dire each situation was) fell through.

Edit: also... victimblaming schmictimblaming... seriously people who continually put themselves in crappy situations only to turn around and act like they did no wrong is annoying.

 

[Nordling]

Yes, if anyone's the victim, its Paypal, when someone abuses the system to this extent.