do you believe in god? and how much?

[Jupiter551]

I think you may have formed yourself into a pretzel, goodsir. I, for one, am not ready to strike the word "know" from the dictionary.

Does the pretzel indicate circular logic or does it represent closed-mindedness? :mrgreen:

The pretzel indicates a stunningly complex logical contortion, to wit: Atheist is an improper term, because non-existence can never be proven, and therefore we cannot prove the non-existence of God.

An atheist, if I'm not mistaken, is defined as someone who does not believe in God. Since when is proof a prerequisite for belief or non-belief?

(And pardon the objectification, but I find pretzelized logic quite sexy.)

Well no, it's not a prerequisite for belief or otherwise, but it is a prerequisite to assert your belief as fact to others with any degree of authority - which I think you'll agree, religious people attempt to do all the time.

People might very well go about discussing how pink donkeys are real and they were seen 2000 years ago and they promised to come back, but so long as they don't threaten me that I'm going to go to pink donkey hell unless I worship, or more importantly annoy me by trying to recruit me to the pink donkeyists, they won't hear a peep out of me.

If they start becoming a sizeable force influencing politics however...then yes, it's time to debunk the donkeys.

As for the "my truth" type argument ("well God is real to ME") this short, amusing clip is probably a little unsporting because arguing with Bill O'Reilly is like shooting fish in a barrel, but it's still funny as hell.

 

[BetsyBooty]

Well no, it's not a prerequisite for belief or otherwise, but it is a prerequisite to assert your belief as fact to others with any degree of authority...

But you deemed the word "atheist" basically unfit for use (because God's existence cannot be disproven). If someone does not believe in God, and is unconcerned with claiming such as fact, that person may fairly and accurately call herself an atheist.

I believe I am enjoying this thread drift. I do not assert this belief as fact.

 

[Jupiter551]

Well no, it's not a prerequisite for belief or otherwise, but it is a prerequisite to assert your belief as fact to others with any degree of authority...

But you deemed the word "atheist" basically unfit for use (because God's existence cannot be disproven). If someone does not believe in God, and is unconcerned with claiming such as fact, that person may fairly and accurately call herself an atheist.

I believe I am enjoying this thread drift. I do not assert this belief as fact.

Well it's semantics, there is a possibility god (or anything else for that matter) exists. So if you are 99.99999999999999999% sure god doesn't exist you're an agnostic atheist. Most people at that point would just consider that atheism (and it is). You don't have to be 100% sure of anything to hold a position on it.

 

[BetsyBooty]

Well no, it's not a prerequisite for belief or otherwise, but it is a prerequisite to assert your belief as fact to others with any degree of authority...

But you deemed the word "atheist" basically unfit for use (because God's existence cannot be disproven). If someone does not believe in God, and is unconcerned with claiming such as fact, that person may fairly and accurately call herself an atheist.

I believe I am enjoying this thread drift. I do not assert this belief as fact.

Well it's semantics, there is a possibility god (or anything else for that matter) exists. So if you are 99.99999999999999999% sure god doesn't exist you're an agnostic atheist. Most people at that point would just consider that atheism (and it is). You don't have to be 100% sure of anything to hold a position on it.

Thanks!

 

[Lintilla]

Well it's semantics, there is a possibility god (or anything else for that matter) exists. So if you are 99.99999999999999999% sure god doesn't exist you're an agnostic atheist. Most people at that point would just consider that atheism (and it is). You don't have to be 100% sure of anything to hold a position on it.

You don't have to hold a position on the god matter at all to be an atheist. Everyone is born an atheist until they learn of or somehow conceive of god themselves. You can't believe in something you've never so much as heard of.

You definitely don't have to be 100% sure of anything to hold a position on it. I'm 100% sure of that, I've been browsing the internet all day today :lol:

But atheism/theism is not a spectrum. You either believe there is a god or you don't.

That only works if your theist is a Christian. Christians are nearly as big a bunch of atheists as I am. There are millions of gods around the world and the christians deny them all. If we both deny every other god on the planet, we are left with the only point of contention being the existence of the christian god. That being the case an atheist is the only valid position because the christian, jewish and islamic god doesn't exist. There is a paper trail extending back 3,000 years that shows that he was fabricated by Abraham. If all these christians then decide that Enki is real and that is who them meant all the time, then yup I can deny him to, because I can safely assume that he too was a fabrication of some shaman somewhere. We are back to the natural state of an atheist. I do not need to deny the existence of things that other people propose without evidence. This does not preclude the existence of gods, it simply means that until such time as one actually does something measurable they can be ignored.

I agree with all of that completely... there are an infinite number of (in)conceivable gods I don't believe in. I was only using the term "god" as a very loose substitute for whatever sort of supernatural or not-so-supernatural being or entity or... eh... whatever other definitions there are for a "higher power" or what-have-you someone might believe in or not. "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" and all that... So more accurately I meant that you either believe in zero or greater than zero gods and friends, then?

I like the bit "until such time as one actually does something measurable they can be ignored". That gets at one of the major reasons I simply can't believe in any sort of god whatsoever. They're most often described as being "supernatural", which is an illogical concept (as it's generally used) that refers to something that is not subject to the laws of nature. If and when a supernatural whatsit interacts with our universe it becomes measurable and therefore either the laws of nature are necessarily being obeyed by or created by that force, at which time it is now what I would define as "natural". Now if, despite the fact that "God works in mysterious ways", you believe as most seem to that "God does not play dice with the universe" (quote intentionally taken out of context for my own amusement), all you've got is the laws of nature operating predictably. You can throw faith out the window because now you've got evidence, you're basically stuck with either deism or atheism, and I have given myself an excuse to quote the Hitchhiker's Guide in a way that's almost but not quite entirely unrelated to what I'm trying to say:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," said Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist, and so therefore you don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore he proves that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

I'm not explaining this well though, as I've had a drink or two. A lot of what I just said was fallacious and I know it. *Backs away from thread*

 

[Lydia_Deetz]

besides...it's one of the amusing truths that we humans always have to have 3 catagories after dissecting something :lol:

Really? Weird, that's not what I've seen...

I've noticed that it usually starts with either two or three, but eventually things crop up that don't fit any of the available options, and eventually enough of them come together. Usually, when we've actually finished with something, there usually turns out to be 6-12 categories.

-We started with solid, liquid, gas, but now we have plasma, I'm excited to see what #5 and #6 will turn out to be!
-We started with Male and Female, then we found Transvestites, now we have the whole Transgender community as well as neuters
-We started with gay and straight, then we got bisexual, now we also have pansexual and asexual
-first there was plant, animal, and dead matter. Now there's also bacteria, and virus, and lichens...

Yup, we never seem to be able to keep anything in those 2-3 categories that we start with.

You left out hermaphrodites, which were around probably before male and female.

And you neglected fungi. Don't forget the mushrooms! They help you grow and give you extra lives. And some really good ones take you to an alternate plane of existence.

You can't use Mario logic, because it does not exist.

 

[lordmagellan]

You can't use Mario logic, because it does not exist.

You can't prove it doesn't exist. Don't believe me? Ask Jupiter. :tongue3:

 

[LadyLuna]

FOR THE RECORD...

Many martial arts teach people how to break blocks with their heads.

Turtles carry salmonella, which is deadly.

So it's not that far off after all!

 

[Jupiter551]

You can't use Mario logic, because it does not exist.

You can't prove it doesn't exist. Don't believe me? Ask Jupiter. :tongue3:

lol it's true, you can't prove mario doesn't exist, or that touching a turtle (might) kill someone For instance what if the turtle steps on a live power line at the exact second you touch it? :scared-shocked:

 

[Anonymous]

Never have I ever believed in any form of a higher power. Never. As a 5 year old kid I remember being forced to go to church and knowing all of it was bullshit. Later, my mother was advised to stop making me go to Catechism because I obviously didnt want to be there. Because it was so important to my mom, she paid me to continue going until I could make my first communion. After that I stopped. Since my family is what I call super-Catholic, there are times I feel obligated to attend certain family functions that revolve around the church. I go, out of respect for my family and do my best to be respectful even though sometime I literally have to bite my tongue to keep from laughing out loud. For the most part though when people reveal to me that they believe in god/are religious, I do tend to think that there's something seriously wrong with them.

 

[TashaDutch]

lol it's true, you can't prove mario doesn't exist, or that touching a turtle (might) kill someone For instance what if the turtle steps on a live power line at the exact second you touch it? :scared-shocked:

your-pet-turtle-could-very-innocently-poison-you

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

Clearly I've missed something here. Is there a cult that worships turtles as deities? Personally, I'd be more inclined to bow before penguins or walruses.

 

[TashaDutch]

Clearly I've missed something here. Is there a cult that worships turtles as deities? Personally, I'd be more inclined to bow before penguins or walruses.

i'm sure all three excist if you look hard enough .. jupiters post just made me know there would be something Mr. google had to say about proving that touching turtles can kill you..
it was kinda related? meh ok not really.. but whatever :lol:

 

[Jupiter551]

Clearly I've missed something here. Is there a cult that worships turtles as deities? Personally, I'd be more inclined to bow before penguins or walruses.

The World Turtle (also referred to as the Cosmic Turtle, the World-bearing Turtle, or the Divine Turtle) is a mytheme of a giant turtle (or tortoise) supporting or containing the world. The mytheme, which is similar to that of the World Elephant and World Serpent, occurs in Hindu, Chinese, and Native American mythology.

There ya go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Turtle

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

Clearly I've missed something here. Is there a cult that worships turtles as deities? Personally, I'd be more inclined to bow before penguins or walruses.

The World Turtle (also referred to as the Cosmic Turtle, the World-bearing Turtle, or the Divine Turtle) is a mytheme of a giant turtle (or tortoise) supporting or containing the world. The mytheme, which is similar to that of the World Elephant and World Serpent, occurs in Hindu, Chinese, and Native American mythology.

There ya go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Turtle

I was just kidding, although that is still cool. I do think I could get the support of Aedan's room and one of my nephews for a penguin cult though. Those little guys are awesome.

 

[Just Me]

Not so much about god but religion.

How to suck at your religion

 

[stu2]

The only thing wrong with being an atheist is that there's nobody to talk to during an orgasm. ~Author Unknown

 

[BullFrogBlues]

The only thing wrong with being an atheist is that there's nobody to talk to during an orgasm. ~Author Unknown

Yes you do... "oh goddle goddle goddle"

This is an in-joke lol

 

[theguitarrist]

I was raised Catholic and I am Catholic.
I am also part of the people that is much more concerned with the social justice implications of being Catholic than with sexual morality.
Would be easier for me not to be Catholic (part of the institution) because I know the institution has been responsible for terrible things in the past and in the present. But, for me, religion necessarily has a social component, starting with the fact that I first learned about God from other people. So, it is what it is. It's like your family: you hate it, you love it. Or like your football team.
I also strongly disagree with a lot of official positions of the Vatican (e.g. gay rights, abortion). But Vatican's opinion are not the Church's opinion. Through disagreement the Church advances (but so fucking slowly that really exasperates me).
I do not judge anyone that's not religious. I don't think you have to live your life demonstrating anything to God or to anyone. To be honest, I am usually judgemental with conservative people. I feel I have to take a lot of shit as a Catholic because of the conservative people with power in this world and in the Church.
I also approach to God under the "my best hypothesis" principle, based on what I think, I know and I have experienced. I like to think that "we as a community" think what we think because it is our better understanding, but we might be wrong about a lot of stuff.
:twocents-02cents:

 

[lordmagellan]

The only thing wrong with being an atheist is that there's nobody to talk to during an orgasm. ~Author Unknown

My wife just yells, "Cake!"

Yes, you read that correctly. It's a recent development and the first time I heard her, I broke stride and made the look of an inquisitive Labrador. Then went back to humping her like a pillow.

 

[LadyLuna]

I broke stride and made the look of an inquisitive Labrador.

That gave me an image that is all kinds of squee...

 

[SweepTheLeg]

I'm open to the idea of there being a god or many gods, just like i'm open to the idea of zombies, goblins, vampires, werewolves, and the tooth fairy. And all things I have listed each have the same amount of control over how I live my life.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

There wasn't a 100% sure but I don't attend church option. If there was, I'd choose that one.

 

[Mirra]

I just want to say that I LOVE that the biggest debate in this thread is over the terminology when it comes to agnosticism and atheism and not people attacking other's beliefs one way or the other. If I hadn't read it with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it would be possible. Bring it in, everyone! :romance-grouphug:

 

[Red7227]

I just want to say that I LOVE that the biggest debate in this thread is over the terminology when it comes to agnosticism and atheism and not people attacking other's beliefs one way or the other. If I hadn't read it with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it would be possible. Bring it in, everyone! :romance-grouphug:

Whatever gets you through the day. Life is too short to argue about such things where there are tits to be perved at.

 

[CallMeWilliam]

The only thing wrong with being an atheist is that there's nobody to talk to during an orgasm. ~Author Unknown

My wife just yells, "Cake!"

Yes, you read that correctly. It's a recent development and the first time I heard her, I broke stride and made the look of an inquisitive Labrador. Then went back to humping her like a pillow.

Maybe you should yell "Frosting!" when you orgasm...

 

[CallMeWilliam]

As for me I went to church when I was younger, now only for marriages and deaths.

I believe more in the idea that we are actually an experiment in evolution by some other life form that wants to gain a better understanding about how they evolved. It makes more sense than “Let there be light!”.

 

[Kradek]

I just want to say that I LOVE that the biggest debate in this thread is over the terminology when it comes to agnosticism and atheism and not people attacking other's beliefs one way or the other. If I hadn't read it with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it would be possible. Bring it in, everyone! :romance-grouphug:

Don't worry, the election is almost here, folks will need something else to argue over soon.

 

[SweepTheLeg]

I was confirmed as a Lutheran, was my Wednesday night for three years in when I was in the 6th-8th grade so that was A LOT of fun. I had two choices, I go and the mom and I don't fight or we fight and I go anyway. I chose the prior. However, during one of the classes we were told that since babies and mentally challenged people can't understand the word of God that they don't go to heaven. So that night was as lot of fun. I don't remember my response but "What the fuck?!" wouldn't be too far off.

 

[camstory]

Clearly I've missed something here. Is there a cult that worships turtles as deities? Personally, I'd be more inclined to bow before penguins or walruses.

The gospel of John & Paul, ft. penguin & walrus.

The Walrus, taken from "The Walrus and the Carpenter" a Lewis Carroll poem. Only understanding the Walrus to be the villain of the poem later, John Lennon said, he had used the wrong character. Prolly a good thing he didn't write, "I am the Carpenter". There is a line in one of the Beetles later songs that says, "Paul was the Walrus" (or very near that), and was one of the indicators that helped drive the rumor that Paul was dead or missing, because the line was written in past tense.

Also, a song, "God", written by John Lennon later has the line, "I was the Walrus, but now I'm John" (or very near that). (Do to the years that have passed, the uncertainty of the original sources, and my tendency to loose tabs, when I open new tabs in this notepad, the above should be understood as being pulled from an old, abused, lump of gray matter.)

Just made me when I read the post.