do you believe in god? and how much?

[Evvie]

I have noticed that ( and I'm pretty sure I've seen it even in this forum) - Christianity is often ridiculed...it makes me a bit sad since I don't ridicule atheists..and I'm sure if I started saying some of the stuff about atheists that is said about Christians..that I would get a lot of heat.

While I will never (purposely) ridicule someone for their beliefs, I think I need to point out that atheism (notice the lower case 'a') is not a belief system, nor a 'movement'. While I understand the point you're trying to make I can't help but note that it's actually not possible to ridicule an atheist about their beliefs, because you're essentially just ridiculing science, logic and reason. We like to think we live in an age of reason, science has created many of the things around us, and what's more noble is that science is neutral about what it finds, science relies on evidence - provable things, either in theory or fact - when a theory or belief is shown to be false it is abandoned and science moves on. No one is out there trying to disprove god, in fact much western science can be traced back since the Renaissance to the church who actually initiated scientific experiments to PROVE the existence of god. They have had troubling results ever since.

Really? It isn't possible to ridicule science, logic or reason?

Really? There is literally not one person on this earth trying to disprove the existence of god? Just because the roots of western science started out as being pro-church, that means scientific thought hasn't evolved in the last 400 years? I can provide you with a short list of atheists studying at our college here who will not only tell you that they know for a fact there isn't a god, but actively spend much of their time trying to disprove god to other people. I bet if I asked around I would find plenty of atheists who work hard disproving god every chance they get.

I can also provide you with a list of people I know (and I feel a plethora of examples on the intronet) of people who delight in mocking science, logic, and reason.

Just because you feel you are in the right doesn't mean that atheism is magically protected by the atheism spirits who miraculously stop atheists from trying to disprove god and supernaturally prevent atheism from being argued with.

 

[JickyJuly]

I think the world is too complex and beautiful to just be an accident. I believe in God fully, but I don't subscribe to a religion. For me, a relationship with God is too important to let other people play a part in it or influence my feelings.

My husband is Christian. Sometimes our ideas clash, but I occasionally tag along with him to church. It's mostly just songs and bible readings, and if they're reading from the old testament I run out of there quickly. Mostly, I make notes in my head of things to ask my husband for clarification about once we leave and eye the church cookies lustfully until it's time to leave.

 

[mynameisbob84]

I've never given it much thought. I'm not religious, don't attend church, anything like that. I'm not a big fan of organised religion. So much shady shit goes on within those organisations - pedophilia, suppression of women, homophobia. And that's to say nothing of the wars and the violence that gets carried out in the name of religion.
That said, I think it's cool to have a belief system, something to inspire you and provide you with a path, to provide solace and all that good stuff.
Personally, I don't believe in creationism or a bearded man in the sky, but "God" as some kind of divine force in nature, a cosmic guiding hand... I could get behind that. I guess, ultimately, I just don't want to believe that we're all pissing in the wind, here by chance, and a only ever a few bad decisions away from not being here at all.
:twocents-02cents:

 

[camstory]

. how can you breathe air on this planet and not believe in something outside yourself?

Absolutely, my brother used to like to say his god was Mother Nature. When you're sitting in a small wooden boat 26 miles out to sea off a tiny rocky island covered with hundreds of seals sunning themselves and barking away, large flights of sea birds are diving on schools of thousands of anchovies, and Sunfish 7 feet across the size of dining room tables slowly drift by inches below the surface, it's hard to debit that statement.

 

[jackie_O]

I'm a theist, but I do not believe in one, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent capital G God. I do believe in many gods though, like Evvie. And I wouldn't say that I worship them, that's definitely not the correct word. Still, I chose number 1 because I felt it matched up with my beliefs the most.

I have had more negative interactions with Atheists trying to change my feelings and beliefs and generally being rude to theists, that I have had with theists being rude and trying to change the beliefs of atheists. I think I may be unique in that regard, but I just happen too have two atheist friends that can be very very mean about it. Often right to my face because they forget that when they talk bad about religion that includes me, because I AM religious. I'm just not a Christian. :/ It makes me sad. I've never had a Christian treat me that way.

I don't feel that all atheists are that way, I've just had this bad experience.

 

[Red7227]

I have had more negative interactions with Atheists trying to change my feelings and beliefs and generally being rude to theists, that I have had with theists being rude and trying to change the beliefs of atheists. I think I may be unique in that regard, but I just happen too have two atheist friends that can be very very mean about it. Often right to my face because they forget that when they talk bad about religion that includes me, because I AM religious. I'm just not a Christian. :/ It makes me sad. I've never had a Christian treat me that way.

One of the hardest lessons a person can learn is that everyone is different. My upbringing has made me a rigid atheist. I am absolute in my belief that there are no gods and that science is the only valid "belief" system. I do now recognise, in my old age, other people with other experiences have come to a different conclusion to me, and that their beliefs are as absolute as mine are, to their owners. Not all belief is rational. I've seen things that i cannot explain, and accept that these things are something that science cannot yet explain.

Science is an ever expanding set of rules that tries to explain the universe. One day it might explain the existence of gods. I just hope that when that happens, they are not the petty, murderous, uncaring douchbags that the established religions make them out to be.

 

[bob]

Just because you feel you are in the right doesn't mean that atheism is magically protected by the atheism spirits who miraculously stop atheists from trying to disprove god and supernaturally prevent atheism from being argued with.

heh....the idea that atheism is just another belief system is not a popular concept among atheists
ultimately, we all put our faith in something.....

 

[jackie_O]

I have had more negative interactions with Atheists trying to change my feelings and beliefs and generally being rude to theists, that I have had with theists being rude and trying to change the beliefs of atheists. I think I may be unique in that regard, but I just happen too have two atheist friends that can be very very mean about it. Often right to my face because they forget that when they talk bad about religion that includes me, because I AM religious. I'm just not a Christian. :/ It makes me sad. I've never had a Christian treat me that way.

One of the hardest lessons a person can learn is that everyone is different. My upbringing has made me a rigid atheist. I am absolute in my belief that there are no gods and that science is the only valid "belief" system. I do now recognise, in my old age, other people with other experiences have come to a different conclusion to me, and that their beliefs are as absolute as mine are, to their owners. Not all belief is rational. I've seen things that i cannot explain, and accept that these things are something that science cannot yet explain.

Science is an ever expanding set of rules that tries to explain the universe. One day it might explain the existence of gods. I just hope that when that happens, they are not the petty, murderous, uncaring douchbags that the established religions make them out to be.

I just feel very hurt because how vicious they can be with their conviction. They ought to know that if they are trying to change anyone's mind about their personal theism, their methods are about as effective as a Christian telling me that I am going to hell for my beliefs. Ie. completely ineffective. You can't demean my beliefs and they expect me to bend to yours.

 

[Evvie]

I'm a theist, but I do not believe in one, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent capital G God. I do believe in many gods though, like Evvie. And I wouldn't say that I worship them, that's definitely not the correct word. Still, I chose number 1 because I felt it matched up with my beliefs the most.

I have had more negative interactions with Atheists trying to change my feelings and beliefs and generally being rude to theists, that I have had with theists being rude and trying to change the beliefs of atheists. I think I may be unique in that regard, but I just happen too have two atheist friends that can be very very mean about it. Often right to my face because they forget that when they talk bad about religion that includes me, because I AM religious. I'm just not a Christian. :/ It makes me sad. I've never had a Christian treat me that way.

I don't feel that all atheists are that way, I've just had this bad experience.

I have to agree that the most rude and aggressive people I've ever encountered when it comes to religious intolerance and hatred are atheists (or, since some people think it's important to make the distinction, Atheists).

It seems that some A/atheists are so emboldened that their belief system is backed up by the unarguable facts of Science that they feel completely justified in brutally attacking every other belief system and belittling those who are not hardline A/atheists like themselves.

Now, I don't live in a super religious area and I feel that getting in to a debate of who is meanest is a little silly, but my point is that A/atheists seem to enjoy forcing their beliefs on others as much as the next person.

 

[Red7227]

I just feel very hurt because how vicious they can be with their conviction. They ought to know that if they are trying to change anyone's mind about their personal theism, their methods are about as effective as a Christian telling me that I am going to hell for my beliefs. Ie. completely ineffective. You can't demean my beliefs and they expect me to bend to yours.

I know, i've been guilty of the same thing in the past. Now i look to see past the beliefs to the person. I've known a lot of deeply religious people and clergy of various forms, from being unemployed for a while and from working in the disability field. They are good people, honest, caring and gentle. They will say that their beliefs made them that way. Be that as it may, they are good people, and a little thing like beliefs i disagree with isn't going to change that or stop me being their friends.

I dislike evangelism in all its forms, and atheists tend to be worse than most because they feel themselves superior to everyone else, due to the rational basis of their beliefs. Being rational however, doesn't stop them from being obnoxious douchbags no better than TV evangelists.

 

[jackie_O]

Now, I don't live in a super religious area and I feel that getting in to a debate of who is meanest is a little silly, but my point is that A/atheists seem to enjoy forcing their beliefs on others as much as the next person.

I live in Alabama, the buckle of the "bible belt". AND I've started a student organization for alternative religions. And I've still experienced more negative reaction from A/atheists. I still think that perhaps my experiences are outlier, but really I don't know.

@Red, I'm glad you were able to recognize that in time! That's the beauty of seeing different perspectives. I hope that in time, probably long after we're dead and gone, faith will cease to be a point of contention for anyone.

 

[Nordling]

I'm a theist, but I do not believe in one, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent capital G God. I do believe in many gods though, like Evvie. And I wouldn't say that I worship them, that's definitely not the correct word. Still, I chose number 1 because I felt it matched up with my beliefs the most.

I have had more negative interactions with Atheists trying to change my feelings and beliefs and generally being rude to theists, that I have had with theists being rude and trying to change the beliefs of atheists. I think I may be unique in that regard, but I just happen too have two atheist friends that can be very very mean about it. Often right to my face because they forget that when they talk bad about religion that includes me, because I AM religious. I'm just not a Christian. :/ It makes me sad. I've never had a Christian treat me that way.

I don't feel that all atheists are that way, I've just had this bad experience.

I have to agree that the most rude and aggressive people I've ever encountered when it comes to religious intolerance and hatred are atheists (or, since some people think it's important to make the distinction, Atheists).

It seems that some A/atheists are so emboldened that their belief system is backed up by the unarguable facts of Science that they feel completely justified in brutally attacking every other belief system and belittling those who are not hardline A/atheists like themselves.

Now, I don't live in a super religious area and I feel that getting in to a debate of who is meanest is a little silly, but my point is that A/atheists seem to enjoy forcing their beliefs on others as much as the next person.

Agree. Because one's belief (or non-belief) system is not in any way related to the nature of any given individual. A person's choice of personal philosophy is probably unrelated to how agressive a given person is. "Strong atheists" and Jehovah's Witnesses, e.g., tend to attract more agressive people...when it comes to proselytizing. I like to think of myself as an "ex-strong atheist"; age and experience, if nothing else has taught me to be more about "who the F do I think I am" to tell anyone else what to believe. I still enjoy a good argument as long as it's verbal. But, as a "weak atheist" I no longer claim to have any special knowledge.

 

[TashaDutch]

First, I have to disagree with the assumption about the flat earth. That was never science, it was lack of science; but it was based on a similar method: observation. Science all but proved the earth is round as far back as Ancient Greece, possibly earlier, according to studies. But the varying answers science provides is what makes it so fascinating. The fact that science, as a whole is willing to study and observe and conclude; and then to go back and change that conclusion if other evidence is found is what makes it so wonderful. I've heard many complain that science is full of "uppity know-it-alls" who think they have the one answer to everything. This is a gross misunderstanding of what science does.
I don't remember who said it, but I've always loved it: "Religion seeks answers to prove itself right. Science seeks answers to prove itself wrong."

yes but that was exactly what i was trying to say... in THOSE times with those people in THAT place.. it was considered the same thing as we consider science today.. meaning it doesn't really matter what we call science now or then.. its all observation.. they didn't give a crap that other people allready proven something else...
thats what we do know.. the minute the news broadcasts some studie that proves something that comes in handy for us personally.. we all jump into it.. and swear it our 'truth'
i probably should have just made my post shorter... but i'm kinda passionate about this subject
i'm not really that good with finding the right words together in english to get messages through like native english people would be able..

its not really the scientists that i think act like that.. its the people that take the answers as their truth just cause its science.. if my post came off as saying scientists are 'know it alls' then it didn't come through like i wrote it..

what i was actually was trying to say was: i dont believe in science (as the absolute truth), i don't believe in religion (church and the bible or koran or whatever).. i do believe there is something beyond this world, but i never considered it a person that tells us what we should and shouldn't do

 

[AudreyAnna]

Yeah, it's definitely atheists who I feel really attacked by. Sometimes the extremist Muslims as well - but the non-extremists of them will just say "May Allah be with you and guide you" and invite me to debate over a particular Qur'an passage...and never had any follower of Judaism say anything. As for theists, people who believe in various Gods and Goddesses..never have been attacked by them either.
It's interesting though that all my closest friends and romantic relationships are with atheists and we just tend not to talk about religion or beliefs since it always ends with "Wow...you're stupid and delusional if you believe that."

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

Now, I don't live in a super religious area and I feel that getting in to a debate of who is meanest is a little silly, but my point is that A/atheists seem to enjoy forcing their beliefs on others as much as the next person.

I live in Alabama, the buckle of the "bible belt". AND I've started a student organization for alternative religions. And I've still experienced more negative reaction from A/atheists. I still think that perhaps my experiences are outlier, but really I don't know.

@Red, I'm glad you were able to recognize that in time! That's the beauty of seeing different perspectives. I hope that in time, probably long after we're dead and gone, faith will cease to be a point of contention for anyone.

Wow, I could've quoted any of half a dozen people here to start my post, but I went with this one because it has me a little unsettled. I would classify myself as what Nordling calls a "weak atheist" (I like that term). I voted for the second to last choice -- I'm pretty sure there's no god, but I believe proof or disproof is beyond us. You could also call me agnostic with heavily atheistic leanings.

The thing I found surprising is that you say you've experienced more negative reaction from atheists (cap A or not as you like). It's not that I don't think they're capable of being obnoxious. Pretty much every category of person you can come up with has its share of jerks. It's just that, in my experience (and also in polls I've seen), atheists are the minority by far. This thread doesn't show that, but I think that's explained by the nature of the venue (typically, not many adherents to organized religion are going to openly support sexually-oriented material on the internet). I don't live in the bible belt, and I still run into few people who say they don't believe in god at all when the subject arises. Heck, it feels to me as if Christianity is the state religion of the United States. I see and hear things promoting religion most days I leave my house. I saw one billboard promoting atheism last winter, and I was shocked because I'd never seen such a thing before. Anyway, it seems very clear to me that the sheer number of proselytizing religious people dwarfs the number of atheists doing the same. Perhaps the ubiquitousness of religious propaganda is what riles up the atheists you've met? I don't know for sure, maybe they're just rude people, but I know that's something I find frustrating to see.

Anyway, my feelings are (and have been for pretty much my whole adult life) that I don't have any problem with people practicing their religions however they like -- as long as they don't push it in my face. I don't feel the need to argue religion with people; in fact I think it's pointless. I'd like to just live and let live and fervently wish everyone else would do the same, regardless of their personal beliefs.

The problem with categories is that you can't really choose to be classified along with only the "good ones" with your point of view. One poster expressed dismay that many people judge Christianity by the acts of people whose behavior doesn't really reflect the tenets of the religion. That may be true, but those were still people who claimed to be Christians (and would likely argue that they are the true ones). Most often, people self-identify what their religion is, and really, there's no person around able to sort them all out. I agree that there can be "good" and "bad" atheists as well, and I can't choose for people to automatically know I'm a good one if I identify by that word. My only solution is for people to leave everyone else the heck alone when it comes to their beliefs on religion and god(s) (or lack of one).

 

[Jupiter551]

Really? It isn't possible to ridicule science, logic or reason?

Actually when I said that I edited myself because I didn't want to sound mean. It is possible to ridicule science, logic or reason, but you will simply end up looking like an idiot.

Really? There is literally not one person on this earth trying to disprove the existence of god?

Not in the name of logic, science or reason no. You cannot disprove the existence of something. You CAN prove the existence of something, but you CANNOT disprove the existence of something. If you don't believe me, go ahead and try to disprove the existence of invisible unicorns. Since we're talking about science here, be sure to provide evidence of their non-existence.

Just because the roots of western science started out as being pro-church, that means scientific thought hasn't evolved in the last 400 years?

Did I say science started as pro-church? I don't think I did. I said much of science was initiated BY the church, who subsequently often disliked the results that came back because they WEREN'T "pro-church", if you want to use that phrase, but I would rather say that the findings did not agree with church dogma. Galileo is one of the scientists that Christians like to trot out to routinely prove their extensive contributions to science. When Galileo argued that the earth rotated around the sun, the Catholic Church was so enamoured with his book that he was accused before the inquisition of heresy, sentenced to lifelong house-arrest, required to publicly refute his theories and his book, and any future ones he should write were banned. So no, I am not and nor would I ever claim that science had "pro-church" origins.

I can provide you with a short list of atheists studying at our college here who will not only tell you that they know for a fact there isn't a god, but actively spend much of their time trying to disprove god to other people. I bet if I asked around I would find plenty of atheists who work hard disproving god every chance they get.

Well then they should spend more time in class because they're idiots. It is a logical impossibility to disprove the existence of something. You cannot "disprove" god, you can point out there's no evidence he exists, you can point out that his existence cannot be proven, but disproving the existence of something is a logical impossibility.

Just because you feel you are in the right doesn't mean that atheism is magically protected by the atheism spirits who miraculously stop atheists from trying to disprove god and supernaturally prevent atheism from being argued with.

Sorry, who said anything about magical protection or immunity to argument? You can certainly make a case to argue against atheism and if you would care to do so, please provide evidence. I wouldn't have the nerve to suggest it isn't possible to make a case without a scrap of actual evidence, but, unless it's actually religion that's somehow magically protected, we'd have to conclude that in the absense of ANY evidence, the theory of a god's existence doesn't hold water.

You keep talking about "disproving god". I don't want to insult your intelligence, I suspect you know what I mean when I say it is a logical impossibility to disprove the existence of anything, but since you've brought it up more than once I'll put this well layed-out example of why it is logically, and therefore scientifically impossible to disprove something's existence.
If you disagree with this one, there are innumerable other explanations of this fairly straightforward concept.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2012/01/27/how-does-one-scientifically-disprove-something/

One can disprove something if one can exhaustively investigate all the possible options that it can have and show that they do not exist. For example, I can prove that unicorns do not exist in my office by looking everywhere in it, under desks, in file drawers, in closets, etc. and not finding it, and that should convince pretty much anyone that the existence of unicorns in my office has been disproved.

But it becomes harder to disprove the existence of unicorns anywhere on the Earth because it is impossible to examine all the possible places that unicorns could possibly be living in. This is why the legends of the Yeti or Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster are so durable and seemingly impervious to disproof. And it gets even worse if we were to allow for habitable life on other planets in distant galaxies. Then disproving the existence of unicorns becomes impossible.

But even within my office, the existence of unicorns cannot be disproved if advocates are allowed to advance auxiliary hypotheses as needed. Unicornists could claim that unicorns are so tiny that they cannot be seen by the naked eye or that they appear only when it is totally dark or if there is no observer in the room and so on. No proposition, however preposterous, can be disproved if one allows the proponents to advance such ad-hoc stratagems.

 

[camstory]

I have had more negative interactions with Atheists trying to change my feelings and beliefs and generally being rude to theists... It makes me sad.... I've just had this bad experience.

I have to agree that the most rude and aggressive people I've ever encountered when it comes to religious intolerance and hatred are atheists (or, since some people think it's important to make the distinction, Atheists).

It seems that some A/atheists are so emboldened that their belief system is backed up by the unarguable facts of Science that they feel completely justified in brutally attacking every other belief system and belittling those who are not hardline A/atheists like themselves.

I am a little surprised by this, but do not doubt it. And it makes me sad as well Jackie. I agree a debate of who is, or is not, the more rude/out of line, would be silly.

Being a very passive person, I find it hard to disengage with ppl who engage me in conversation with a hardline sales pitch. This has meant that more than once in my life I have sat and listened for much longer than I cared, to ppl trying to sell me their religion. I say listen, but really what it very quickly sounds like is Blah, Blah, Blah, and is just irritating noise. Because of these times, I have tried my best to never proselytism my belief of no gods.

On the other hand, if I am asked my opinion, I have no problem expressing my belief. Jup is maybe the most intelligent and well educated person I have ever had the privileged of observing on a somewhat regular, and personal level. In the OP Jup suggest there is no need for any debate, while inviting any that might occur. A question of god, and the inevitable inclusion of religion, that does not spark some form of debate? I may well be the least intelligent regular here, but if you will excuse me, :laughing-rolling: :laughing-lettersrofl: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

I truly hope that even when my opinion has been asked for, or invited, that I do not insult, belittle, or in any other way upset those with beliefs different from my own. Though I may do this, because in such cases my focus is not on be mindful of others beliefs, but rather on expressing my own. These two things of being mindful of others, while express ones own beliefs are not mutually exclusive, I just don't think I always do it very well.

Why would I weight in at all, if not to try to convince others I am right, and they should believe as I do? Well, I think ppl can be proud of what they believe, and feel strongly enough about certain facets of who they are, to make those facets clear to others around them. That does not need to include any effort to convert anyone.

Also, I want to add something I see as a negative mindset, I have seen both atheist, and theist too often getting locked into. That is, being so sure of what they believe to be right, that they stop questioning their understand, their beliefs. IMhO, there is nothing we should ever stop questioning, or if not actively questioning, at least not block off all possible avenues for question. I have seen so many times ppl refuse to even be curious about anything that might differ from their set of beliefs. I think this happens some times bc the person has some underlying questions, and senses their beliefs are possibly not as strong as they need to them to be. These things that are so much a part of who we are, can be frightening to question, bc it means we may find we are not who we had thought, not who we had become comfortable with being.

I think other times it is the case that ppl lock into this mindset exactly because they have been too many times the victims of assaults against their beliefs. This is really what campaigns aimed at converting one to believe as you do, - to give up what they believe, are. No mater how nicely it is done, it is still an assault against their beliefs.

I have never known an addict who quite, and stayed quit for any other reason than because they wanted to. The sacrifices we make, the giving of ourselves that we feel we wish we did not have to do, very often are our want, whether we understand it or not. We forget things we do not wish to remember. We do what we want to do, the vast majority of the time. We may confine our wants within structures that allow us to be responsible, or to appear in one way or the other, or that we don't appear odd or unacceptable, or jail free, or other things, but mostly all of us do as we want, IMho. The flip of that is that we very rarely, I would say almost never, do anything for any extended time, that we do not want to do, or were pressured to do. that includes believing something we have been sold to believe.

I think it is unlikely I will find a way to god/s, but I remain open to that possibility. If there is a god/s there for me to find, I must find her on my own, of my want, and not be pushed at her.

 

[LadyLuna]

I believe that in the beginning, something set this whole thing in motion. I don't know why, maybe it was just for amusement.

I believe that there is one main male and one main female force for good, and that there is one main male and one main female force for evil. That what names you think you are using don't matter, because they aren't the being's true names anyway, but that the actions are what matter. I believe that love and truth further the cause of good, and that hate and falsehood further the cause of evil. I believe that joy is the result of the good, and misery the result of the evil. I believe that every action is loving, hateful, neutral, or a mix.

I believe that there are spirits, beings which never possessed a physical form, which act on behalf of good, and those which act on behalf of evil, and some which are neutral. I believe most of the ghosts we hear about which cannot be scientifically explained are those spirits who have decided to mimic a human they found interesting. Those which do not manifest as human were bound there somehow. I believe that strong human emotions are capable of binding the non-corporeal spirits to a place, and sometimes to a purpose.

I believe that religions were started to attempt to keep people in the path of the good, but that some followers of religion are too entranced by the evil for whatever reason. Sex is neutral, but many religions try to make it evil. Love is sacred, and love within the act of sex is even more sacred and beautiful. I believe that worship can be a personal thing, or a community endeavor, and that both paths are valid.

I believe that evil tries to twist the beliefs of religion whenever it can, hence why it tries to say that disease is a punishment, when really it's just a part of life. I do not attend a church, though I used to be Catholic, and before that, some form of protestant. My biological mother walked the Christian path of love before the medicine took her mind, and some of that remained to teach me.

It makes me sick, the way people twist and warp things. It makes me rage when people take advantage of those who are good, tempting them to turn away from the good. I can't stand it when people hate other people for whatever reason. I hate the fact that I have to bury these feelings to survive in this fucked up world.

That is all.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I am agnostic. I have a rather cynical plan to hedge bets when I am in my 70s, The objective is if I am wrong, and does God does exist and want to minimize the time I have spent doing annoying rituals while minimizing my changes that I'll spend burning in hell. I am still working out my conversion order Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, some Protestant faith finally Catholicism. If god's real name is Allah, I'm in trouble but I figure I'll have plenty of company in hell. :evil:

 

[Just Me]

I like the way Penn Gillette put it. I am paraphrasing here, "If god came to you and told you to kill your child, would you do it? If you answer is no, you do not believe in god. If you answer yes, I would like you to please reconsider."

I know I will never change peoples minds about entrenched beliefs but it is fun to post things that might make them a little more critical in their thinking. I will point out that atheism is not a belief. It is the exact opposite, it is the absence of belief. People that do believe will have a difficult time coming to terms with that.

 

[RogueWarrior]

I would just like to point out that I am so pleased with the civil discourse that has taken place on this subject: No name calling, no general dismissal if someone's belief is different than your own. That is one of the coolest things about this forum. While there have been some shitstorms started, when things turn serious, people here are respectful. Nobody here needs a big thumbs up, but I give that nonetheless.

I chose No. 1, because, well that's just what I believe. You can question why I would still be a member of this forum if that is what I believe, and that's fair. I enjoy the differing opinions. I do not discount any one else's opinion just because it is not the same as mine. Love thy neighbor. That's what it says. Not, love thy neighbor as long as he/she has your same belief syshtem.

Some have superimposed religion onto the original question of belief in God (yes, I used the big "G" because that's what I believe, and the original question did not use the plural). All religion is man-made, therefore, fallible. As humans, we are imperfect. And that's OK.

As far as those who are offended by someone sharing their belief in God with you, I propose this: If it is someone you know, even casually, through work, a shared activity, etc., it means they care about you. While you may think they're out of their everlovin' mind, what kind of a person would they be if they did not share what they think is a way to eternal salvation rather than eternal damnation? I think I may be offended if they thought they knew that and did not share. Unless they are belligerent about it, then they only have your best interest at heart, however silly you may think their beliefs. (Caveat: those door-to-door folks do not count. While they may believe what they are saying, it's just not the way to go IMO. Relationship building comes first).

As has been pointed out previously, every facet of the spectrum can be branded with a bad name because of the extreme factions of any group. I have known some atheists whom I would consider good friends. I have known some so-called Christians with whom I would not care to associate.

I don't judge. I only provide salient sarcasm where it is called for (at least I think that's what I provide here).

Touchy subject, handled well by all who have posted. Kudos.

 

[camstory]

My above post got frustrating, and away from me, as I tried to rush it, needing to get something done outside before I ran out of daylight. What I had hoped to express, is we all should be tolerant of each others beliefs, or lack there of. And what harm does it do to remain open to any possibility?

If anyone is curious or wants to explore a little different look at a perspective of non belief, than the more hard core writings of the likes of Hitchens, Gore Vidal, and the like, I would like to recommend 'Letting Go of God', by Julia Sweeney. (an hour plus in 13 parts on youtube, and in full on netflix I believe) It is her story of finding her truth, that is both insightful, and entertaining, IMO. It also does a wonderful job of never appearing to make any judgment for anyone but herself.

And because I can't help myself. It is pretty dismissive of any beliefs in the supper natural, and should be skipped if you have had enough of that for now.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I would just like to point out that I am so pleased with the civil discourse that has taken place on this subject: No name calling, no general dismissal if someone's belief is different than your own. That is one of the coolest things about this forum. While there have been some shitstorms started, when things turn serious, people here are respectful. Nobody here needs a big thumbs up, but I give that nonetheless.

I chose No. 1, because, well that's just what I believe. You can question why I would still be a member of this forum if that is what I believe, and that's fair. I enjoy the differing opinions. I do not discount any one else's opinion just because it is not the same as mine. Love thy neighbor. That's what it says. Not, love thy neighbor as long as he/she has your same belief syshtem.

Some have superimposed religion onto the original question of belief in God (yes, I used the big "G" because that's what I believe, and the original question did not use the plural). All religion is man-made, therefore, fallible. As humans, we are imperfect. And that's OK.

I should point out the forum is almost a mirror image of the American public. (I realize we have international models also and religion is less prevalent in Europe) The latest gallop poll has 9 out 10 American believing in god vs 10% of the forum believing 100% that there is a God.

I am quite passionate in my belief that American first freedom be protected. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Many atheist and agnostic like myself, are fixed on the first part of the amendment the establishment clause while ignoring the free exercise clause.

I'm always conscious that my views on God are in a minority, and I get offended by the actions of atheist groups to wipe out any trace of religion in America in public settings.

 

[16_bit]

I should point out the forum is almost a mirror image of the American public. (I realize we have international models also and religion is less prevalent in Europe) The latest gallop poll has 9 out 10 American believing in god vs 10% of the forum believing 100% that there is a God.

I'm always conscious that my views on God are in a minority, and I get offended by the actions of atheist groups to wipe out any trace of religion in America in public settings.

And international members too
I don't know if religion is less prevalent in Europe, it might that countries have become so multicultural that it's hard for any religion to stand out where in America, one religion seems to stand out more against others. Not being from the US, i'm not sure how much other religions have taken a hold there. I know the UK, we have plenty of mosques, churches, temples and places of worship for nearly all religions. There's a polish church not far from me.

I'm always so disappointed when someone who doesn't believe in god or religion has to try to prove God doesn't exist and says that religion is wrong and people shouldn't believe in any of it or that science is better. Science is great and has helped us in many ways but it doesn't know everything and can't explain everything. Maybe it will someday, maybe some things will forever remain a mystery. So what's wrong with people believing in a God or Gods where science can't explain?
Religion isn't perfect but nothing is. There's nothing wrong with someone believing in which ever faith they choose or don't choose. But religion can be very helpful to people, it can give them reason for something when otherwise they would be lost, confused or overcome with an emotion that would greatly affect them.
Respect is something that should be shared between people whatever their faith or non faith, not just with people who believe what you believe. Of course, while i'd like to explain all this to the people i see hating on religious people, i go for the shorter option of "shut up, you fucking idiot". I mean, that's close enough, right? lol.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

No.
Nothing god or religion related passes the smell test with me. All of it runs into paradoxes and contradictions.

Some are harmless, some are insane. None of them make any sense.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, if there is a God somewhere, I'm sure he/she/it/they are far enough above a creature like me to know I doubt their existence based on very logical reasons. I'm sure if he/she/it/they were in my shoes they'd doubt me too, given the same data to work with.

So.. no. I don't believe but I do accept that I could be dead wrong. I'm not going to waste my life trying to find the other side of the mobius strip.

 

[Lintilla]

I was born an (implicit) atheist and I will die an (explicit) atheist. I've seen weak and strong atheism mentioned in this thread as well, and anyone who wants a better understanding of what those terms mean can read this. Specifically I am a week/agnostic atheist, which means I would say "I do not believe in a god" vs. "I believe there is no god", which is a difficult distinction for some people to make. But I am a strong/gnostic atheist with respect to any god I've ever seen described, because without fail the terms they're described in are inconsistent with observable reality, incompatible with logic, or are vague enough that they don't particularly describe anything at all. I can't take any god seriously if it cannot even be defined.

It's the difference between someone positing the existence of Russell's Teapot and someone telling me that there's a Flying Purple People Eater in my bedroom. There might be a teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars and I can't prove that there isn't, but there is definitely no monster in the room with me. For this reason I respect believers, but I generally hold little to no respect for their beliefs. I'm not sure if that's a controversial thing to say or not, but that's how it is for me.

I follow the online atheist and skeptic communities fairly closely, though I tend not to participate in them much anymore. I also try not to get involved discussions with people who happen to be religious or spiritual anymore because I do have a tendency to turn into Tim Minchin in the "Storm" video posted above. I've gotten better at holding my tongue when people make casual references to things like Christianity or homeopathy or ghosts or etc. etc. etc. Ohhhh, but how it makes my head want to explode. I've had to hide half of my Facebook friends from my timeline for mentioning various things the skeptic community would call "woo".

Faith is irrational by definition, and people with religious beliefs are deriving them from a source other than reason, so attempting to debate them from the perspective of logic and reason tends to be non-productive in general. That's basically why I decided to stay away from engaging anyone on the subject. However, if someone brings it up I'll certainly answer any questions, and my position is fairly well considered and detailed at this point, so it's likely that I'll tire them out. I read George H. Smith's "A Case Against God" in grade school (his book, Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the God" and the Christian bible itself are what flipped me from implicit to explicit atheism at a young age), and a whole bookshelf of other related literature since then, including various religious texts, so I can easily go into unstoppable babble mode, especially considering I'm a bit of an aspie and, well I guess it happens to be one of my "special interests" (and that's why I'm going to stop typing now).

I also don't want to be one of these people, but I fail often enough...

 

[Diana Blake]

I will believe in any deity that gives me the power to smite a bitch.

That's all it takes. Until then, I remain skeptical

 

[Nordling]

I was born an (implicit) atheist and I will die an (explicit) atheist. I've seen weak and strong atheism mentioned in this thread as well, and anyone who wants a better understanding of what those terms mean can read this. Specifically I am a week/agnostic atheist, which means I would say "I do not believe in a god" vs. "I believe there is no god", which is a difficult distinction for some people to make. But I am a strong/gnostic atheist with respect to any god I've ever seen described, because without fail the terms they're described in are inconsistent with observable reality, incompatible with logic, or are vague enough that they don't particularly describe anything at all. I can't take any god seriously if it cannot even be defined.

It's the difference between someone positing the existence of Russell's Teapot and someone telling me that there's a Flying Purple People Eater in my bedroom. There might be a teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars and I can't prove that there isn't, but there is definitely no monster in the room with me. For this reason I respect believers, but I generally hold little to no respect for their beliefs. I'm not sure if that's a controversial thing to say or not, but that's how it is for me.

I follow the online atheist and skeptic communities fairly closely, though I tend not to participate in them much anymore. I also try not to get involved discussions with people who happen to be religious or spiritual anymore because I do have a tendency to turn into Tim Minchin in the "Storm" video posted above. I've gotten better at holding my tongue when people make casual references to things like Christianity or homeopathy or ghosts or etc. etc. etc. Ohhhh, but how it makes my head want to explode. I've had to hide half of my Facebook friends from my timeline for mentioning various things the skeptic community would call "woo".

Faith is irrational by definition, and people with religious beliefs are deriving them from a source other than reason, so attempting to debate them from the perspective of logic and reason tends to be non-productive in general. That's basically why I decided to stay away from engaging anyone on the subject. However, if someone brings it up I'll certainly answer any questions, and my position is fairly well considered and detailed at this point, so it's likely that I'll tire them out. I read George H. Smith's "A Case Against God" in grade school (his book, Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the God" and the Christian bible itself are what flipped me from implicit to explicit atheism at a young age), and a whole bookshelf of other related literature since then, including various religious texts, so I can easily go into unstoppable babble mode, especially considering I'm a bit of an aspie and, well I guess it happens to be one of my "special interests" (and that's why I'm going to stop typing now).

I also don't want to be one of these people, but I fail often enough...

Fairly close to my thoughts on religion, gods and spiritualism (still not sure what that even means). One of my favorite bloggers on the subject is a YouTube favorite and also my favorite Romanian.

 

[schlmoe]

Of course, while i'd like to explain all this to the people i see hating on religious people, i go for the shorter option of "shut up, you fucking idiot". I mean, that's close enough, right? lol.

That's just how Jesus explained it in the "Golden Rule", or close enough... :mrgreen:

 

[Lydia_Deetz]

My thoughts...