A warning to bad models !!!

[Ambers Troll]

What an interesting read this topic has been, thanks to Fay_Galore for her detailed descriptions of how the tradition is celebrated there too. I am Australian, my ancestors come from both black US and Dutch heritage, so found it fascinating.

I suspect the european tradition of Zwarte Piet, has many links to racist practices/ thoughts especially post slavery, even though the tradition started out innocently. I find the traditions and stories around cinders interesting, this another one.

Having fair skin, but black heritage, if I had children enjoying the festival they would only be permitted under the understanding that at some point the more sensitive aspects of Zwarte Piet/ Golliwogs/ Blackface shows be clearly explained to them. The tradition holds as uncomfortable to me.

 

[Sevrin]

This has sort of run its course, but I just came across this today. Apparently, it's not only North Americans who have a problem with this quaint tradition.

Dutch police have arrested dozens of people during a protest over Black Pete, a controversial black-faced sidekick to the local St Nicholas.

The police said most of the 90 people were arrested for protesting in a non-designated area in the city of Gouda.

Many in the Netherlands see Black Pete as a racial stereotype, but others say the tradition is not linked to race.

The Dutch version of the St Nicholas legend depicts him arriving by boat from Spain with armies of Black Petes.

Trouble broke out in Gouda, selected as the city to kick off this year's festivities, during a re-enactment of the arrival of Nicholas and his Black Petes.

State TV showed footage of scuffles as protesters unfurled banners reading "Black Pete is racism".

Story
Clashes at Dutch Black Pete protest in Gouda

 

[schlmoe]

This has sort of run its course, but I just came across this today. Apparently, it's not only North Americans who have a problem with this quaint tradition.

Dutch police have arrested dozens of people during a protest over Black Pete, a controversial black-faced sidekick to the local St Nicholas.

The police said most of the 90 people were arrested for protesting in a non-designated area in the city of Gouda.

Many in the Netherlands see Black Pete as a racial stereotype, but others say the tradition is not linked to race.

The Dutch version of the St Nicholas legend depicts him arriving by boat from Spain with armies of Black Petes.

Trouble broke out in Gouda, selected as the city to kick off this year's festivities, during a re-enactment of the arrival of Nicholas and his Black Petes.

State TV showed footage of scuffles as protesters unfurled banners reading "Black Pete is racism".

Story
Clashes at Dutch Black Pete protest in Gouda

The newspaper really missed a chance at a great headline...

Dutch city says Zwarte Piet is no Gouda

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Ambers Troll]

I don't think aggressive protesting is very helpful, and to what aim?
Keep in mind under the tradition, the best friend of a living saint was apparently a spanish guy with dark skin of morish descent.
The extra dark skin part is not a charicature, but the symbolism for cinders. Just like in other cinder stories it represents knowing yourself/ knowing who you are.
(The reason is in cleaning out of fireplaces, the cinders stick to you. Doing so is also a sign of good luck, if you don't do it, you die. In this tradition the child is being assessed by someone who knows themself very well, and therefore will judge them truly.)

The problem comes with the role he played in the tradition, and his personality type being transferred to darker skinned people. To think of Zwarte Piet as Santa's slave, I don't think holds true, freed slave perhaps, but I think friend fits better, such a role would only be given to someone you trust. The playing the fool, the uncomfortable personality, and the punishing children aspect, children must learn to see as just part of this individual, not as representive of his background. Older children may be able to understand that it may be a role played outside of the real personality.

So it is not all a bad thing, but as part of a childs culture, it can influence their views later on. I say enjoy the festival (even if you cringe as an adult at it at times) but keep in mind some of its risks to your children's development. And those countries with the festival should not just discard it, there is much children can take from it that is good.

 

[Fay_Galore]

This has sort of run its course, but I just came across this today. Apparently, it's not only North Americans who have a problem with this quaint tradition.

Dutch police have arrested dozens of people during a protest over Black Pete, a controversial black-faced sidekick to the local St Nicholas.

The police said most of the 90 people were arrested for protesting in a non-designated area in the city of Gouda.

Many in the Netherlands see Black Pete as a racial stereotype, but others say the tradition is not linked to race.

The Dutch version of the St Nicholas legend depicts him arriving by boat from Spain with armies of Black Petes.

Trouble broke out in Gouda, selected as the city to kick off this year's festivities, during a re-enactment of the arrival of Nicholas and his Black Petes.

State TV showed footage of scuffles as protesters unfurled banners reading "Black Pete is racism".

Story
Clashes at Dutch Black Pete protest in Gouda

This happened two weeks ago and was already discussed in this thread.
The article by the BBC is not completely correct. (not to mention the language they used 'armies of black petes' whut)
The arrests were done because of disturbance of the festivities, about half of them were anti-zwarte piet protesters and the other half non-protesting people who took matters into their own hands when they aggressively tried to move the anti-zwarte piet protesters.
30 protestors on 17 million dutch citizens is hardly 'many'.
IMO all arrested were in the wrong, very wrong. There are other ways to make your point without scaring thousands of children present at the festival.

 

[Sevrin]

There are other ways to make your point without scaring thousands of children present at the festival.

Not if you want people to pay attention. What were they supposed to do? Post on Tumblr?

 

[bodisha]

It never ceases to amaze me when the PC police attempt to judge other people or cultures by their own values. Even if two things resembles each other on the surface, not every culture assigns the same meaning the other culture does. Second, I think it's extremely arrogant of Americans to think that the Dutch people, or any other country for that fact, should change something ingrained in their society simply because it makes us as Americans uncomfortable with our own past. It seems extremely close minded to me. The idea of a homogeneous world that are only permitted to have views & opinions that are accepted by the lowest common denominator disturbs me.

 

[RedHerby]

So, that old bastard just left Holland and he is with his steamer on the way home to Spain, together with all the Black Petes ...

Time to evaluate ....

It was almost a (social) media only thing (except for Gouda and Amsterdam a bit). I did have 3 Sinterklaas events this year (family, work, pub). The Zwarte Pieten ( Black Petes ) where black at those events because they are black, it's that simple, there was no discussion at all about it. Ok ok, this was in the east of the country, farmers land, things go a bit slow here.

The really bad thing imho is that the pro Zwarte Pieten side is hijacked by the ultra right politics (PVV), the Telegraaf newspaper, the GeenStijl website, populist right wing things, if this was not the case I could maybe defend Black Pete and want to keep this tradition (see Fay's postings for argumentation/feelings why so) but no way I will join those nutcases, so rainbow Petes? Fine by me!

If I really think about it, I want to change the tradition also, be part of the multicultural society I want Holland to be. But it was difficult to really think about it, having fun on the internet is more fun

Some links if you want to read more about it:

• Harriet Duurvoort @ The New York Times
  The Economist
  USA Today

See you next year, it goes extremer every year, maybe next year we will have street riots about something racial, you USA folks know all about that ...

 

[eclipse76]

There are other ways to make your point without scaring thousands of children present at the festival.

Not if you want people to pay attention. What were they supposed to do? Post on Tumblr?

Considering the sheepish and americano-centered nature of Tumblr, this could spread very quickly actually.
Geez they even went after a guy dressed as a Dark Elf at a con because "blackface", despite the fact it has nothing to do with Minstrel shows.

 

[eclipse76]

sheepish -> I meant herd mentality.

 

[bud9752]

sheepish -> I meant herd mentality.

Oh, you meant to say SHEEPLE. :-D

 

[mfcbaldie]

sheepish -> I meant herd mentality.

Oh, you meant to say SHEEPLE. :-D

Sheeple ... Scheephole ... Schiphol ... isn't that the airport?

My daughter was happy to see Sinterklaas, not because of presents, but because there won't be a Zwarte Piet argument for another year.