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Just noticed this this morning! It's all kicking off.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30069240
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30069240
I haven't seen a proper informative post in this thread yet, a few (satire) videos and a few pasted articles, but let me try and explain this tradition here without trying to be too biased.
Sinterklaas (St Nicolas) is a jolly nice fella who celebrates his birthday with the children of the Netherlands and Belgium. He's a bishop from Turkey but (for reasons unknown) lives in a huge villa in Spain with all his Pieten (Pete's). They're all called Piet. really. nobody knows how many, but maybe hundreds of Pieten. He has been around for ages and is, not unlike santa claus, a very old man that doesn't seem to get much older. His birthday is on the 6th of december, in belgium they celebrate sinterklaas on the 6th, in holland on the night of the 5th. There is a german version of this too, but I'll let this out because it's too different from ours. (go see that office episode if you want to know, and laugh)
Mid-November he arrives in the Netherlands on a large steamer boat, together with all the pieten and all the presents and candies. This is broadcasted on national television and in anticipation of the arrival of Sinterklaas, kids are being hyped up days, even weeks before this by tv-shows about this years' journey, shops that sell sinterklaas decoration and other kids who already have their wishlists ready. As you can imagine, this is a very stressful time for the wee ones, they don't sleep much and are on constant look-out for a Piet who might be watching if they're being good or bad.
On the day of his arrival Sinterklaas is doing a parade around the city on his white horse, together with the pieten and traditionally a marching band that plays sinterklaas songs (there are a million sinterklaas songs and all the kids and grown up know them all by heart). The major of the town will shake his hand and officially welcome him.
Piet will hand out and throw around "strooigoed" which is a combination of 'kruidnoten' (small spiced biscuits) and different pieces of candy. Traditionally they throw it in the air, but this has been banned by a few cities deeming it wasteful. (understandable, but the concept is really a lot of fun, being bombarded by candy)
During the next couple of weeks, Sinterklaas may make a few visits to schools or towns, he will be invited on tv-shows and Pieten are spotted on the street across the country. handing out traditional candy, juggling, climbing roofs, being 'silly', etc.
Kids are allowed to put their shoe by the chimney (or, if you don't have a chimney like I when I grew up, the backdoor will be sufficient) you leave some hay, a carrot and/or some water for the horse and a letter or drawing for sinterklaas in your shoe, and the next morning the carrot's been eaten (or put back into the fridge by your mum), the water's gone and the drawing has been taken. Instead you will find a small present and sinterklaas candy in and around your shoe! It's MAGICAL! Depending on the depths of your parents wallets you're allowed to do this 1-5 times prior to december 5th.
Of course, finding something in your shoe as an adult very much depends on your housemates.
Sinterklaas has got this big book with all the kids' names in there saying if you've been good this year. Traditionally, if you haven't been good, you don't get any presents, but that's not all, you will be put in a sack by Piet and taken back to spain, after a good beating with a 'roe' (basically, a flogger) that is. I haven't heard any sinterklaas or piet, or parent for that matter, threaten their kids with this scary story in 20 years, so this part definitely has died out. It's just about the presents. Piet doesn't carry around his scary 'roe' anymore either. Piet these days is very, very friendly.
Sinterklaas isn't as approachable as Santa Claus, you won't see him hanging around at a mall offering his lap to kids and posing for pictures. His visits are short and very special, it's an honour to shake his hand. He's gold hearted but slighty stand-offish man. What you would expect from a good-doing bishop. Piet however is the one carrying around kids, making jokes, laughing, etc.
Now, december 5th, the day all kids have been anticipating for weeks. They have been doing sinterklaas themed arts and crafts for weeks to decorate their school and will probably dress up as little pieten for school. Sinterklaas will visit their class today, with Piet and presents, and candies and he might even say a few words to you. it's very scary and very exciting. (I did the make-up and costumes for sinterklaas and the pieten for years at a local school here) After an entire day of festivities at school, that night it's 'pakjesavond' (present night). There's gifts for the entire family. Depending on a family's recourses, they might hire a sinterklaas to bring the presents, have a cousin dress up as piet or simply have they neighbour do a few loud knocks on the door, leave a sack of presents and take off before the kids open the door. This night goes together with another batch of sinterklaas songs, hot coco and a massive amount of sinterklaas candy, biscuits and sweets until your tummy hurts and you want to hurl. to kids, (and some adult) it's the best day of the year.
Sinterklaas, his horse and his crew sneak off into the night and won't be heard of until next year november.
We don't really celebrate christmas like most of you do, there's usually a tree and sometimes presents, but santa claus to kids here is just some dude that's on the wrapping paper, much like the easter bunny. Families without small children might not celebrate sinterklaas but do christmas with presents instead. Families who do celebrate sinterklaas but have no 'believers' anymore, exchange the sack of presents with a 'secret santa' sort of thing, where presents much be accompanied with a (usually mocking) personal poems and/or a self-crafted "Surprise" which is a bit like a piñata, it's an object which holds a present inside, the object must say something about the receiver of the gift, like a guitar made out of a shoebox or a tennisshoe made out of fabric.
When I was three, Sinterklaas came to my pre-school, I was pretty scared and understood it was a very big deal. I remember him sitting there in a big throne-like chair with pieten around him, he was reading from a book. I looked down at his feet and whispered to my mum, who was next to me "Sinterklaas has got the same slippers as grandpa!" thinking it was pretty awesome someone that important got their shoes at the same place my grandfather did! years later I realised it was in fact my grandfather playing sinterklaas that day.
Sinterklaas (St Nicolas) is a jolly nice fella who celebrates his birthday with the children of the Netherlands and Belgium. He's a bishop from Turkey but (for reasons unknown) lives in a huge villa in Spain with all his Pieten (Pete's). They're all called Piet. really. nobody knows how many, but maybe hundreds of Pieten. He has been around for ages and is, not unlike santa claus, a very old man that doesn't seem to get much older. His birthday is on the 6th of december, in belgium they celebrate sinterklaas on the 6th, in holland on the night of the 5th. There is a german version of this too, but I'll let this out because it's too different from ours. (go see that office episode if you want to know, and laugh)
Mid-November he arrives in the Netherlands on a large steamer boat, together with all the pieten and all the presents and candies. This is broadcasted on national television and in anticipation of the arrival of Sinterklaas, kids are being hyped up days, even weeks before this by tv-shows about this years' journey, shops that sell sinterklaas decoration and other kids who already have their wishlists ready. As you can imagine, this is a very stressful time for the wee ones, they don't sleep much and are on constant look-out for a Piet who might be watching if they're being good or bad.
On the day of his arrival Sinterklaas is doing a parade around the city on his white horse, together with the pieten and traditionally a marching band that plays sinterklaas songs (there are a million sinterklaas songs and all the kids and grown up know them all by heart). The major of the town will shake his hand and officially welcome him.
Piet will hand out and throw around "strooigoed" which is a combination of 'kruidnoten' (small spiced biscuits) and different pieces of candy. Traditionally they throw it in the air, but this has been banned by a few cities deeming it wasteful. (understandable, but the concept is really a lot of fun, being bombarded by candy)
During the next couple of weeks, Sinterklaas may make a few visits to schools or towns, he will be invited on tv-shows and Pieten are spotted on the street across the country. handing out traditional candy, juggling, climbing roofs, being 'silly', etc.
Kids are allowed to put their shoe by the chimney (or, if you don't have a chimney like I when I grew up, the backdoor will be sufficient) you leave some hay, a carrot and/or some water for the horse and a letter or drawing for sinterklaas in your shoe, and the next morning the carrot's been eaten (or put back into the fridge by your mum), the water's gone and the drawing has been taken. Instead you will find a small present and sinterklaas candy in and around your shoe! It's MAGICAL! Depending on the depths of your parents wallets you're allowed to do this 1-5 times prior to december 5th.
Of course, finding something in your shoe as an adult very much depends on your housemates.
Sinterklaas has got this big book with all the kids' names in there saying if you've been good this year. Traditionally, if you haven't been good, you don't get any presents, but that's not all, you will be put in a sack by Piet and taken back to spain, after a good beating with a 'roe' (basically, a flogger) that is. I haven't heard any sinterklaas or piet, or parent for that matter, threaten their kids with this scary story in 20 years, so this part definitely has died out. It's just about the presents. Piet doesn't carry around his scary 'roe' anymore either. Piet these days is very, very friendly.
Sinterklaas isn't as approachable as Santa Claus, you won't see him hanging around at a mall offering his lap to kids and posing for pictures. His visits are short and very special, it's an honour to shake his hand. He's gold hearted but slighty stand-offish man. What you would expect from a good-doing bishop. Piet however is the one carrying around kids, making jokes, laughing, etc.
Now, december 5th, the day all kids have been anticipating for weeks. They have been doing sinterklaas themed arts and crafts for weeks to decorate their school and will probably dress up as little pieten for school. Sinterklaas will visit their class today, with Piet and presents, and candies and he might even say a few words to you. it's very scary and very exciting. (I did the make-up and costumes for sinterklaas and the pieten for years at a local school here) After an entire day of festivities at school, that night it's 'pakjesavond' (present night). There's gifts for the entire family. Depending on a family's recourses, they might hire a sinterklaas to bring the presents, have a cousin dress up as piet or simply have they neighbour do a few loud knocks on the door, leave a sack of presents and take off before the kids open the door. This night goes together with another batch of sinterklaas songs, hot coco and a massive amount of sinterklaas candy, biscuits and sweets until your tummy hurts and you want to hurl. to kids, (and some adult) it's the best day of the year.
Sinterklaas, his horse and his crew sneak off into the night and won't be heard of until next year november.
We don't really celebrate christmas like most of you do, there's usually a tree and sometimes presents, but santa claus to kids here is just some dude that's on the wrapping paper, much like the easter bunny. Families without small children might not celebrate sinterklaas but do christmas with presents instead. Families who do celebrate sinterklaas but have no 'believers' anymore, exchange the sack of presents with a 'secret santa' sort of thing, where presents much be accompanied with a (usually mocking) personal poems and/or a self-crafted "Surprise" which is a bit like a piñata, it's an object which holds a present inside, the object must say something about the receiver of the gift, like a guitar made out of a shoebox or a tennisshoe made out of fabric.
When I was three, Sinterklaas came to my pre-school, I was pretty scared and understood it was a very big deal. I remember him sitting there in a big throne-like chair with pieten around him, he was reading from a book. I looked down at his feet and whispered to my mum, who was next to me "Sinterklaas has got the same slippers as grandpa!" thinking it was pretty awesome someone that important got their shoes at the same place my grandfather did! years later I realised it was in fact my grandfather playing sinterklaas that day.
Wow, amazing post Fay, thanks !!! yes, this was part of my childhood, reading this post brings back good memories.
But that seems history now, back to yesterday, 90 people where arrested on this day that is so important for the kids, it's a mess, idiots on both sides.
But that seems history now, back to yesterday, 90 people where arrested on this day that is so important for the kids, it's a mess, idiots on both sides.
And now a serious reaction, Fay’s posting deserves this, for me below quote is key.
So that story that Sinterklaas’s steamer sailed through a rainbow with the result that a lot of Pieten have now different colors, I found it perfect, it explains to the current little kids why the Pieten have different colors, and in a few years it is just a part of the tradition.
omg, the reactions, so scary, Holland is no fun nowadays, the PVV is now the biggest political party in the polls, it’s a right-wing party with anti-migrants standpoints.
Below did happen yesterday too, a selfie on fb from a player of the Dutch national soccer team, in no time there where many racist remarks with lot of references to Zwarte Piet.
It proves that a tradition can change over the years. Why not change the color of the Pieten? The Netherlands are not the same as 100 years ago, back then almost only white people where living here, nowadays it’s much more multicultural, black-face does not fit anymore in our society imho.Fay_Galore said:
So that story that Sinterklaas’s steamer sailed through a rainbow with the result that a lot of Pieten have now different colors, I found it perfect, it explains to the current little kids why the Pieten have different colors, and in a few years it is just a part of the tradition.
omg, the reactions, so scary, Holland is no fun nowadays, the PVV is now the biggest political party in the polls, it’s a right-wing party with anti-migrants standpoints.
Below did happen yesterday too, a selfie on fb from a player of the Dutch national soccer team, in no time there where many racist remarks with lot of references to Zwarte Piet.
Attachments
I'm still a bit confused.
Is the basis of the controversy that the character of Piet is black, or is it specifically about the insistence on playing him in black face. Like, if they started just getting people of color to play Piet, would that be okay, or do people want Piet to just not be black at all?
Other than that, it seems like a perfectly lovely tradition. Maybe if people adopted a "Santa Clause Day" in the beginning of December over here in the States, people on my facebook feed would stfu about seeing Christmas shopping commercials before Thanksgiving, or all that "war on Christmas" nonsense.
Is the basis of the controversy that the character of Piet is black, or is it specifically about the insistence on playing him in black face. Like, if they started just getting people of color to play Piet, would that be okay, or do people want Piet to just not be black at all?
Other than that, it seems like a perfectly lovely tradition. Maybe if people adopted a "Santa Clause Day" in the beginning of December over here in the States, people on my facebook feed would stfu about seeing Christmas shopping commercials before Thanksgiving, or all that "war on Christmas" nonsense.
RedHerby said:
I agree, we could totally change the tradition and traditions do change, the difference is, it's usually subtle evolving over time, it's not like someone said 30 years ago, we're going to change the way Piet talks and acts. today. it just happened, along with the change of society, traditions change with it. Forcing it go change over night might cause some troubles.
and regarding your racism remark, it's a shame people say those kinds of things, but if you want to be a racist, the existence of 'zwarte piet' isn't going to change that, they'll find other mean things to say no matter what.
zippypinhead said:
I think the main issue it that it's portraying a black slave-like character as something positive. The fact that there's white people playing that character isn't the biggest part, but of course adds to the cringe. I'd like to add that the percentage of the dutch population that actually feels hurt by this is very small. Luckily a lot of other people can sympathise with that and are doing their best to figure out a middle ground.
There are plenty of black people playing zwarte piet too, it's not percieved as insulting by an entire race of people, just a part of that race.
TashaDutch said:
If he is a dude in a chimney, then the other racist bits of the costume can go bye-bye and there would be no difference, right? Why hold on to something that is just wrong? Context is important; that's why black people are socially allowed to say the "n word" without being seen as racist, but white people can't. When a race of people have been historically abused by pretty much everyone, you can't then continue to keep the things that are historically disrespectful towards those people.
In America there were also blackface shows. We don't do them anymore.
Black Pete doesn't have to have big red lips and a freaking afro if you're just going to tell your kids he is black from a chimney. He doesn't need to have to be a caricature of black people.
aria-rose said:
Why doesn't America just say bye-bye to thanksgiving and Columbus day? It's a different subject, but just as painful for a large group of people. It's just not that easy, to just suddenly end a four-century-long tradition, I believe it could change, but as I said, not overnight. the pro-zwarte piet group is much too large and there are so many articles saying Piet has nothing to do with slavery, it's not that (wait for it) black and white. It's pretty easy to judge this when you only see one side of the story.
Fay_Galore said:
We are actually actively working on Columbus day. There's a lot of us who are speaking out and asking for it to be called Explorer's Day and wanting the truth about Columbus to be taught. Thanksgiving itself isn't racist, it's just shortsighted, which is why there is a Native American Appreciation day right after Thanksgiving...
Additionally, I'm more just speaking to the people actively defending the blackface caricature. I think that's not okay.
Zwarte Piet is originally not a caricature of black people, the tradition dates back to the 16th century, nobody had ever seen a black person back then, let alone enslaved them. I understand in the current state of society, that association is made, especially seen how the look of zwarte piet looks (traditional spanish 18th century clothing, curly hair, red lips) but it was never intended that way. It is, like christmas, something that dates back to BC, I'll make a post about this later on, but it's not easy since all the sources are dutch.
I do get a bit defensive when someone attacks my cultural heritage without much knowledge on the subject, I was brought up with zwarte piet and he warms my heart, I understand it is no longer acceptable and things need to change, but that doesn't mean I'm not very sad to see him go. As a child, like ALL dutch children I never ever made an association with race, children don't see race, children don't even see gender until it's explained by the parents. Kids don't think about these things and this is, after all, a festival for kids.
I do get a bit defensive when someone attacks my cultural heritage without much knowledge on the subject, I was brought up with zwarte piet and he warms my heart, I understand it is no longer acceptable and things need to change, but that doesn't mean I'm not very sad to see him go. As a child, like ALL dutch children I never ever made an association with race, children don't see race, children don't even see gender until it's explained by the parents. Kids don't think about these things and this is, after all, a festival for kids.
First of all terrific posts Fay thanks so much for sharing it sounds like a fun holiday tradition.
This seem to be one of those rather awful guilt by association situations. Just because black face performance has well deserve reputation for being racist in America, dating from the 19th century doesn't mean it has the same meaning everywhere in the world. It is like the Swastika a very similar symbol was used by Hindu centuries before Hitler, its silly to make them Hindu stop using the symbol, just because people are historically ignorant.
Doing a bit of Googling it seems like the people are most offended are either White American, or Africans. This is a pet peeve of mine. If a black, Muslim, or "person of size" is offended by something I or somebody else, that is one thing. I'll happily listen to their complaint. But when somebody (typically a white privilege person from a developed country) is offended on behalf of some other group, I say bullshit you have not earned the right to be any type of victim. I wouldn't listen to them at all. The relatively small number of blacks living in Holland, they certainly have the right to complain,and if they find it offensive than I sure the Dutch are capable of coming to an accommodation.
If some guy on MFC calls you fat, ugly, slut, with tiny deformed boobs, who is too stupid to do anything but fuck herself on camera, you can choose to be offended turn off the camera and go cry, or you can do what most successful camgirls do mock his spelling, grammar, lack of originality, and being a virgin, and eventually ignore him. In the US people have a constitutional right to be offensive, there is no right to not be offend. Being offended is a choice, it is something that is completely in your control. It is one I wish people would choose to do a hell of a lot less often.
This seem to be one of those rather awful guilt by association situations. Just because black face performance has well deserve reputation for being racist in America, dating from the 19th century doesn't mean it has the same meaning everywhere in the world. It is like the Swastika a very similar symbol was used by Hindu centuries before Hitler, its silly to make them Hindu stop using the symbol, just because people are historically ignorant.
Doing a bit of Googling it seems like the people are most offended are either White American, or Africans. This is a pet peeve of mine. If a black, Muslim, or "person of size" is offended by something I or somebody else, that is one thing. I'll happily listen to their complaint. But when somebody (typically a white privilege person from a developed country) is offended on behalf of some other group, I say bullshit you have not earned the right to be any type of victim. I wouldn't listen to them at all. The relatively small number of blacks living in Holland, they certainly have the right to complain,and if they find it offensive than I sure the Dutch are capable of coming to an accommodation.
If some guy on MFC calls you fat, ugly, slut, with tiny deformed boobs, who is too stupid to do anything but fuck herself on camera, you can choose to be offended turn off the camera and go cry, or you can do what most successful camgirls do mock his spelling, grammar, lack of originality, and being a virgin, and eventually ignore him. In the US people have a constitutional right to be offensive, there is no right to not be offend. Being offended is a choice, it is something that is completely in your control. It is one I wish people would choose to do a hell of a lot less often.
Wow, very niceHiGirlsRHot said:
I will go out of my way at times to call out obvious attitudes of hateful bigotry, (maybe too much some times), but I don't see this as a case of hateful bigotry. Whether or not it might be proper for the dutch to let this tradition die out, or modify it to appease those offended, they will have to figure out.
And, yes, the fact is, being offended, and/or being hateful are both choices. There is so much power in the use of hate, or invoking ppl to become offended, and to be offended or hateful in return takes so much energy, and causes so much stress, it's silly how much it happened. (I personally think men have a harder time with choosing not to be offended in general, but that's just b/c I have seen so many fights jump off behind an ignorant mother, or sister slur. Or "punk" ((in prison or in the hood, or anywhere else you find a lot of convicts, being punked is the worst thing)) Best way I saw someone deal with being called a punk, he said, "It's punkin to you!" :lol: :lol: :lol: )
As much power as there is in being offended or offending, there is more in choosing to not be offended.
Wait, what, since when has Native American Appreciation Day been celebrated in the US? Celebrating = shopping?
Many Americans seem to have the very strange view that how they see things is how all people of all cultures in all countries see things. And that only their view can possibly be correct.
Many Americans seem to have the very strange view that how they see things is how all people of all cultures in all countries see things. And that only their view can possibly be correct.
Fay_Galore said:
It may be a festival *for* kids, but kids didn't come up with the idea. Children's attitudes toward race have nothing to do with anything. Traditions serve to reinforce a community's identity, whether it be a family or a nation. This identity is impressed on children very early, specifically via this kind of celebration. Zwarte Piet is always an outsider, an anomaly, and never a member of the community. That's the message being passed on to children.
Well, that's not entirely true, and a bit contradicting too. The main argument the anit-zwarte piet movement has, is that it's a bad example towards kids, so their attitude towards it matters quite a lot, if kids would be influenced by zwarte piet to look towards dark skinned people in a negative way, than I would say that matters a big deal. However, studies have shown that that is not the case at all. at all! Kids don't link zwarte piet to black people (unless of course that's being dictated by their parents)Sevrin said:
I don't agree with you on the purpose of traditions, maybe some traditions have that purpose, but a lot of traditions are practical, religious, or like santa claus and sinterklaas, for fun.
Sevrin said:
why would you say that?
AerynShade said:
Well, my family celebrates it. And it's been gaining more popularity and attention. That was my point--that the racist beliefs are changing.
I have developed what feels like a pretty powerful opinion about this whole Dutch racist/American condamnation, black piet thing, that I hope I can form into a brief, coherent post shortly. Now I have a water heater to fix that must take precedence. Maybe occupying the mind with other things for a little while will help the words settle out? So this is really just some chicken shit way of bumping the thread I guess? 
rcs-buttshake: :laughing-rolling:
rcs-buttshake: :laughing-rolling:
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Ugh this just doesn't end, does it... -_-
Here's something to consider. The only thing that is viewed as offensive (mostly by American or Americanized cultures) in this non-American tradition is the black-face costuming. Black-face is considered one of the most atrocious forms of imitation in American culture because of our own social and cultural history. It was the actions of white-supremacists and slave-owner culture that brought about this massive stigma and incredibly emotional reflex to the image of a person who doesn't have dark skin wearing black makeup. Historically, it was the actions performed by or to this character that were much more offensive than the actual visual portrayal of a non-black person playing a black person. Other cultures have their own skeletons but it was American media and societal ignorance and mockery that caused this backlash of disgust towards a single image (and rightfully so); this was not a global movement. While other cultures may agree that it is an insensitive portrayal, those who were not raised in a culture where this image is considered horribly taboo may not see it the same way.
Let's take, for instance, an actor portraying a Hasidic Jew. How about how many times we've stereotyped the Dutch in our media? An actor wearing a fat suit, is that not hurtful? How about Johnny Knoxville impersonating an elderly man? Or Robin Williams pretending to be a English female nanny? Not offensive? How about the Wayans brothers acting as females and putting on white face? A few weeks ago I saw a skit on SNL where a few actors dressed up as members of fucking ISIS. How many actors in the past ten years have dressed up as genocidal dictators and been met with critical acclaim?
It's the decision of the Dutch people to choose how they want to direct their own culture, not everyone else's decision. They stopped the candy throwing because that was obviously something that the public thought was actually causing damage... let's try to keep that in mind, they know what they want and what they are doing.
If all this media buzz actually causes this tradition to change due to a massive outcry from cultures that has never even been to the damn country, I will grow exponentially more ashamed to be an American than I already am.
Now let's all get back to buying a shit ton of expensive stuff for our kids, telling them some fat dude who lives on the North Pole (which doesn't have any fucking land mass by the way) got his slave army of midgets to magically replicate a bunch of PS4's and shit and dropped them down the chimney from his sleigh that is somehow levitated to their house by flightless cervids.
...wait.... Leaving Santa cookies when he obviously has a weight problem is probably a bad thing to encourage... so let's scratch that. Also, his elves are either a mythical race (which is just flat-out preposterous, I mean come on...), individuals with dwarfism or children, none of which are allowed to leave the North Pole and are condemned to a life of replicating trendy commodities and tacky sweaters... Yeah, we should probably not encourage the slave-labor of children, little people or an unidentified hominid species... so let's nix that as well... What's left here... Mrs. Clause! Waiting on Santa's beck and whim, rarely making any appearance... sounds pretty 50's housewife-y to me... Sexist... Goodbye. And we wouldn't want to give our children the idea that common creatures in the deer family are capable of flight... What if they find one trapped in a fence or a hole someday? They might just leave it there to die assuming it was just scared and would fly away when they left. No, we should definitely get rid of that horrible misconception. AH! Geography! Global warming! The ice caps are melting! We can't be giving the next generation false information about what the North Pole is actually composed of... So... We're left with an old dude in a ridiculous suit and a sled giving kids a thumbs up for not being little shits this year. Sounds like something parents should be doing every day to me...
Fuck it. No Christmas this year. Scrap it all. :-x
It's a slippery slope, guys. We can get offended at whatever the hell we want but if we really look at the facts here, the only people that are taking direct fire here are the Dutch. If you're offended by a TV show, change the channel. If you're offended by a tradition, don't celebrate it. Fighting a memory of oppression with oppression just feels... dirty.
Yeah, that's all I got to say. But here's a fun little game to play to get us all in the holiday spirit!
100 tokens (MFC or CB) to whoever can figure out exactly where in this post my sleeping pills kicked in. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
Here's something to consider. The only thing that is viewed as offensive (mostly by American or Americanized cultures) in this non-American tradition is the black-face costuming. Black-face is considered one of the most atrocious forms of imitation in American culture because of our own social and cultural history. It was the actions of white-supremacists and slave-owner culture that brought about this massive stigma and incredibly emotional reflex to the image of a person who doesn't have dark skin wearing black makeup. Historically, it was the actions performed by or to this character that were much more offensive than the actual visual portrayal of a non-black person playing a black person. Other cultures have their own skeletons but it was American media and societal ignorance and mockery that caused this backlash of disgust towards a single image (and rightfully so); this was not a global movement. While other cultures may agree that it is an insensitive portrayal, those who were not raised in a culture where this image is considered horribly taboo may not see it the same way.
Let's take, for instance, an actor portraying a Hasidic Jew. How about how many times we've stereotyped the Dutch in our media? An actor wearing a fat suit, is that not hurtful? How about Johnny Knoxville impersonating an elderly man? Or Robin Williams pretending to be a English female nanny? Not offensive? How about the Wayans brothers acting as females and putting on white face? A few weeks ago I saw a skit on SNL where a few actors dressed up as members of fucking ISIS. How many actors in the past ten years have dressed up as genocidal dictators and been met with critical acclaim?
It's the decision of the Dutch people to choose how they want to direct their own culture, not everyone else's decision. They stopped the candy throwing because that was obviously something that the public thought was actually causing damage... let's try to keep that in mind, they know what they want and what they are doing.
If all this media buzz actually causes this tradition to change due to a massive outcry from cultures that has never even been to the damn country, I will grow exponentially more ashamed to be an American than I already am.
Now let's all get back to buying a shit ton of expensive stuff for our kids, telling them some fat dude who lives on the North Pole (which doesn't have any fucking land mass by the way) got his slave army of midgets to magically replicate a bunch of PS4's and shit and dropped them down the chimney from his sleigh that is somehow levitated to their house by flightless cervids.
...wait.... Leaving Santa cookies when he obviously has a weight problem is probably a bad thing to encourage... so let's scratch that. Also, his elves are either a mythical race (which is just flat-out preposterous, I mean come on...), individuals with dwarfism or children, none of which are allowed to leave the North Pole and are condemned to a life of replicating trendy commodities and tacky sweaters... Yeah, we should probably not encourage the slave-labor of children, little people or an unidentified hominid species... so let's nix that as well... What's left here... Mrs. Clause! Waiting on Santa's beck and whim, rarely making any appearance... sounds pretty 50's housewife-y to me... Sexist... Goodbye. And we wouldn't want to give our children the idea that common creatures in the deer family are capable of flight... What if they find one trapped in a fence or a hole someday? They might just leave it there to die assuming it was just scared and would fly away when they left. No, we should definitely get rid of that horrible misconception. AH! Geography! Global warming! The ice caps are melting! We can't be giving the next generation false information about what the North Pole is actually composed of... So... We're left with an old dude in a ridiculous suit and a sled giving kids a thumbs up for not being little shits this year. Sounds like something parents should be doing every day to me...
Fuck it. No Christmas this year. Scrap it all. :-x
It's a slippery slope, guys. We can get offended at whatever the hell we want but if we really look at the facts here, the only people that are taking direct fire here are the Dutch. If you're offended by a TV show, change the channel. If you're offended by a tradition, don't celebrate it. Fighting a memory of oppression with oppression just feels... dirty.
Yeah, that's all I got to say. But here's a fun little game to play to get us all in the holiday spirit!
100 tokens (MFC or CB) to whoever can figure out exactly where in this post my sleeping pills kicked in. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
What I felt needed said, has for the most part been said. I would like to support a few aforementioned points of view, and add a retaliative unique experience. I will try to do that with out putting the boot to the reposing steed much.
I'll start by saying that I don't believe there is any alternative but to see the all black peit's as racist. Any practice, costume, depiction, etc., that pidgin holes a single race, is by definition racist. That seems clear, but what does not seem clear to me, is how some of U.S. can not see that this thing that screams racist tradition to U.S., is a benign racist tradition for the Dutch. If it ever was about being racist, it seems it has not been for a long time. Benign racism? Not exactly – a tumor is a tumor, and, racism is racism, but like a tumor racism for some ppl was a cancer that caused great pain that spread everywhere, and was nearly fatal. For these ppl it appears there is no more tumor, but the cancer has not gone, nor is it fully in remission. Just as someone recovering from great illness, may look to be fine, there remain lasting damage, even if not so apparent. The tumor in another ppl, having never caused them great damage, might be neglectfully never removed, and in time became an unattractive, yet barely noticed small lump, that just is. To cut away that small unattractive, inconsequential, lump now, may feel not as important as losing the healthy matter to which it is attached. That same small, unattractive, lump may seem very consequential to other ppl who have known the devastating damage it can cause, and, are going to have a much different reaction to it.
I have very strong beliefs that all forms of bigotry everywhere should be seen as unjust, and that every right minded person has a responsibility to help others to see that as well. But, I believe just as strongly, that you should not, and in fact, can not, dictate what morals others need embrace. Morals may be the one thing that everyone are capable of understanding through self direction. If one is capable of love, than they are capable of finding the correct moral understanding.
Ideally all ppl everywhere would lay to rest all icons of bigotry. We have done a pretty good job of that here in the U.S., nearly excising the last when social pressure and protest over the Sambo's restaurant name caused it to be changed, and was a factor in the chain's demise a few years later. (The Sambo's name in fact was a mix of Sam Battistone, and Newell Bohnett the names of the restaurants' founders, and originally had nothing to do with the story of little black sambo that it was later associated with.) BTW, do you think we would still have a NFL team named the Washington Sambo's?
See the biggest objection I have with Americans condemning the Dutch for their racist tradition is not b/c I really think it is OK, b/c I think the Dutch don't really mean it in a racist way, (which I do) b/c I don't really think it's OK. But before we take our self righteous, arrogant, hypercritical, hypocritical asses all the way to the Netherlands to tell the Dutch how to act, we should first have our own mess tidied up better. (ImhO we should not tell anyone how we think they should behave, but) And, yes with a few exceptions we have done a good job of cleaning our own house, but I want to tell you of an experience I had that suggest to me, that our cleaning of some rooms has been to sweep the dirt under the rug, or maybe the better analogy would be to say, just b/c the house appears clean, does not mean all the occupants are as free of filth.
About 18 years ago I drove with a friend to the small town of Many Louisiana (population 18**) He had gone throw a crazy bad divorce, had cousins in Many, and one who had gone throw a divorce himself , and invited Dave to move down. Dave was driving when we entered north/west Louisiana on interstate 20, and took one of the first exits going south. The 75 miles to Many was about the prettiest stretch I've ever seen. Western Louisiana gets a lot of rain year round, and everything was green and in bloom. To this day I have mixed emotions about what I saw next. For about the first 20 miles we had been driving throw lumber tree farm land, then a few miles past the last section of trees, back from the road maybe 50 yards is a big assed plantation house. And then another, and a third that was huge, bright white, with 8 or 10 white columns across the front. I had never seen anything close except in movies like Gone With the Wind. For the next 50 miles I was leaned forward, my head scanning from side to side. About every 5 miles or so there would be one, maybe only three true mansions, and most in some less than pristine condition. The architecture and front drives were expansive, and even the smaller projected a feeling of being dominate, commanding – like the capital of its own country.
It was fantastic, but almost as soon as we passed the last one, and the excitement waned, an uneasy feeling laid up in my gut. It's the same feeling I have now remembering it. I'm not from the south, or for that matter the north. My ppl were already in California, or had not yet arrived from Sweden at the time of the civil war. Just the same, as fantastic as that experience was, it still creeps me out to know what those places represent.
But that is not the story I had started to tell.
I had been in Many for about a week, and met most of Dave's cousins and his uncle, who carried a sidearm, but so did about half the male adults as far as I could determine. His uncle was the Constable of the parish. (Two things we don't have in Ca. Constables and parishes.) Dave said it was sort of like being the sheriff of a county. He wore street cloths, no uniform, and drove an unmarked Crown Victoria. His duties included, serving warrants, checking out complaints of code violations, and working as a liaison between business ppl, civilians, and the police. (what I saw of him in the two weeks I was there, was a social butterfly, who was always talking to someone, in a parking lot, front yard, leaned up against his cruiser – he had a million jokes & a thousand good ones, and told great stories – very likeable guy.)
One morning Charley, (Dave’s cousin), woke us up with three fishing poles in his hand, and announced we were going fishing on the yellow river. He was between jobs, having lost a job during the run up to his divorce, and then failed when he lost his investment in chicken farming, and now owed Foster Farms $3500 for a couple of big chicken coups they bankrolled. On the way to the river we stopped at a convenience store, (Piggly Wiggly, I think), and bought three big gulp sized wine, strawberry daiquiris, out of a slurpy machine. (Charley said in the next town over they had a convenience with a drive throw where you could get the same thing, and never have to leave the drivers seat. I thought, that really is convenient, especially if you were in a big hurry to get to Shreveport before happy hour, or too drunk to walk even.)
The fishing was mostly uneventful after the first hour when I caught two small catfish in rapid secession. (They were blue catfish I was told, so I caught blue catfish on the yellow river. ) After a bit I thought I'd walk down the shore a ways and try another spot. I got about 100 feet away when I must have spooked a beaver out from some undergrowth along the shore. He dove and swam off, right after he slapped his tail so loudly I thought the sky was falling. I had never seen a beaver, like that, up close, and had no desire to chase it then, much less the rest of my life.
About then the Constable pulled up, and after a story and a joke or two, said he was just in the neighbourhood, (which seemed strange b/c I don't think there was a house within 5 miles) and had to be getting back to town. After conferring with Dave for a second, Charley asked his dad if he could drop Dave and I off, so we didn't have to tag along with him on some errands he had to run. It was agreed, and Dave let me ride up front, prolly knowing that would be a new POV for me. Somewhere along the way I asked about something puzzling that had happened at the store earlier, and had been bothering me all day.
When exiting the store, I noticed a man about to enter that was going to reach the door at the same time as me. I stopped leaned forward and gave the door a pull to let him walk throw. The man, a black man, had seen me too, and he was also stopped. I met his eyes, and smiled the way you do when you are giving right a way. He did not smile back and did not move, diverting his eyes toward the ground. I didn't understand, but walked throw. As I passed the man, at the last second he looked up at me with a look of anger – and not just irritation, or frustration, it was the look of anger that I had thought was only possible between ppl who know each other. I did not explain my thoughts, or how strong the look was to the Constable, just the basic facts. At first I thought of the possibility that he somehow knew I was not from around there, and he wasn't about to be friendly with any dam stranger. I had pretty quickly decided that was not it, and that he just didn't like white ppl. But that I somehow knew was not the reason, or not the whole reason anyway. It seems obvious now, but at the time I was not ready for the answer.
The Constable, in a tone I had not heard him use before, or after, a tone that was almost scolding said, You can't do that sort of thing around here. He continued saying, I'm not saying it's right, but they know their place, and so does everyone else, and if he had walked throw that door and the wrong person had seen him do that, he could have had a load of problems. When he came out he could have got beat or worse, that's why he gave you that look.
Wow, this was the sort of racism I had only ever read about, or seen in movies, and then of a time 60 or 70 years in the past. I knew there were isolated cases – more in the south, of awful raciest acts, but I did not know that there were still whole communities that lived this way. Here was a civil servant, a somewhat high ranking police officer at that, telling me that they knew their place. He had said, he wasn't saying it was right, but he had not said it was wrong either.
Since then I have done a lot of thinking on the matter, and have never remembered that with anything other than sadness, but if you can imaging the hate that our civil war caused to the families of a whole generation decimated, both north and south. Add to that the humiliation and what had to feel like a great theft of their independence – the stealing of states rights, for the south. Independence that many of their ancestors fought and died for. And add one more layer of injustice, how, in many ways the north abandon the ppl of the south in their broken condition, or worse, failed to honor promises of relief in many cases. That's a lot of hate, a lot of hate passed down. Hate of Yankees, which I had heard too often later living in liberal Austin Tx. It was always tongue and cheek, but I knew some were not laughing so much inside. What I had not heard a lot of was hate of black and white, but I knew that was because ppl don't openly hate the enemy in their midst, but considering everything it would be naive to think there would be no hate left. I knew Austin was not like Many, but I also tried to keep in mind that things were not as nice as they appeared. And when a co-worker canceled a date with no explanation, and I had to hear from another co-worker, that it was because she had made the mistake of telling her sister, who told her mom, that she was going out with a white guy, I felt the hate first hand.
Now I'm not saying it is right, and I am saying it is wrong, very wrong, but if you think about it very deeply it should not be surprising. This is the difference between what colors the two POV's, and it is my opinion that we have a lot more here to worry about than the relatively benign racist tradition of the Dutch.
I'll start by saying that I don't believe there is any alternative but to see the all black peit's as racist. Any practice, costume, depiction, etc., that pidgin holes a single race, is by definition racist. That seems clear, but what does not seem clear to me, is how some of U.S. can not see that this thing that screams racist tradition to U.S., is a benign racist tradition for the Dutch. If it ever was about being racist, it seems it has not been for a long time. Benign racism? Not exactly – a tumor is a tumor, and, racism is racism, but like a tumor racism for some ppl was a cancer that caused great pain that spread everywhere, and was nearly fatal. For these ppl it appears there is no more tumor, but the cancer has not gone, nor is it fully in remission. Just as someone recovering from great illness, may look to be fine, there remain lasting damage, even if not so apparent. The tumor in another ppl, having never caused them great damage, might be neglectfully never removed, and in time became an unattractive, yet barely noticed small lump, that just is. To cut away that small unattractive, inconsequential, lump now, may feel not as important as losing the healthy matter to which it is attached. That same small, unattractive, lump may seem very consequential to other ppl who have known the devastating damage it can cause, and, are going to have a much different reaction to it.
I have very strong beliefs that all forms of bigotry everywhere should be seen as unjust, and that every right minded person has a responsibility to help others to see that as well. But, I believe just as strongly, that you should not, and in fact, can not, dictate what morals others need embrace. Morals may be the one thing that everyone are capable of understanding through self direction. If one is capable of love, than they are capable of finding the correct moral understanding.
Ideally all ppl everywhere would lay to rest all icons of bigotry. We have done a pretty good job of that here in the U.S., nearly excising the last when social pressure and protest over the Sambo's restaurant name caused it to be changed, and was a factor in the chain's demise a few years later. (The Sambo's name in fact was a mix of Sam Battistone, and Newell Bohnett the names of the restaurants' founders, and originally had nothing to do with the story of little black sambo that it was later associated with.) BTW, do you think we would still have a NFL team named the Washington Sambo's?
See the biggest objection I have with Americans condemning the Dutch for their racist tradition is not b/c I really think it is OK, b/c I think the Dutch don't really mean it in a racist way, (which I do) b/c I don't really think it's OK. But before we take our self righteous, arrogant, hypercritical, hypocritical asses all the way to the Netherlands to tell the Dutch how to act, we should first have our own mess tidied up better. (ImhO we should not tell anyone how we think they should behave, but) And, yes with a few exceptions we have done a good job of cleaning our own house, but I want to tell you of an experience I had that suggest to me, that our cleaning of some rooms has been to sweep the dirt under the rug, or maybe the better analogy would be to say, just b/c the house appears clean, does not mean all the occupants are as free of filth.
About 18 years ago I drove with a friend to the small town of Many Louisiana (population 18**) He had gone throw a crazy bad divorce, had cousins in Many, and one who had gone throw a divorce himself , and invited Dave to move down. Dave was driving when we entered north/west Louisiana on interstate 20, and took one of the first exits going south. The 75 miles to Many was about the prettiest stretch I've ever seen. Western Louisiana gets a lot of rain year round, and everything was green and in bloom. To this day I have mixed emotions about what I saw next. For about the first 20 miles we had been driving throw lumber tree farm land, then a few miles past the last section of trees, back from the road maybe 50 yards is a big assed plantation house. And then another, and a third that was huge, bright white, with 8 or 10 white columns across the front. I had never seen anything close except in movies like Gone With the Wind. For the next 50 miles I was leaned forward, my head scanning from side to side. About every 5 miles or so there would be one, maybe only three true mansions, and most in some less than pristine condition. The architecture and front drives were expansive, and even the smaller projected a feeling of being dominate, commanding – like the capital of its own country.
It was fantastic, but almost as soon as we passed the last one, and the excitement waned, an uneasy feeling laid up in my gut. It's the same feeling I have now remembering it. I'm not from the south, or for that matter the north. My ppl were already in California, or had not yet arrived from Sweden at the time of the civil war. Just the same, as fantastic as that experience was, it still creeps me out to know what those places represent.
But that is not the story I had started to tell.
I had been in Many for about a week, and met most of Dave's cousins and his uncle, who carried a sidearm, but so did about half the male adults as far as I could determine. His uncle was the Constable of the parish. (Two things we don't have in Ca. Constables and parishes.) Dave said it was sort of like being the sheriff of a county. He wore street cloths, no uniform, and drove an unmarked Crown Victoria. His duties included, serving warrants, checking out complaints of code violations, and working as a liaison between business ppl, civilians, and the police. (what I saw of him in the two weeks I was there, was a social butterfly, who was always talking to someone, in a parking lot, front yard, leaned up against his cruiser – he had a million jokes & a thousand good ones, and told great stories – very likeable guy.)
One morning Charley, (Dave’s cousin), woke us up with three fishing poles in his hand, and announced we were going fishing on the yellow river. He was between jobs, having lost a job during the run up to his divorce, and then failed when he lost his investment in chicken farming, and now owed Foster Farms $3500 for a couple of big chicken coups they bankrolled. On the way to the river we stopped at a convenience store, (Piggly Wiggly, I think), and bought three big gulp sized wine, strawberry daiquiris, out of a slurpy machine. (Charley said in the next town over they had a convenience with a drive throw where you could get the same thing, and never have to leave the drivers seat. I thought, that really is convenient, especially if you were in a big hurry to get to Shreveport before happy hour, or too drunk to walk even.)
The fishing was mostly uneventful after the first hour when I caught two small catfish in rapid secession. (They were blue catfish I was told, so I caught blue catfish on the yellow river.
) After a bit I thought I'd walk down the shore a ways and try another spot. I got about 100 feet away when I must have spooked a beaver out from some undergrowth along the shore. He dove and swam off, right after he slapped his tail so loudly I thought the sky was falling. I had never seen a beaver, like that, up close, and had no desire to chase it then, much less the rest of my life.About then the Constable pulled up, and after a story and a joke or two, said he was just in the neighbourhood, (which seemed strange b/c I don't think there was a house within 5 miles) and had to be getting back to town. After conferring with Dave for a second, Charley asked his dad if he could drop Dave and I off, so we didn't have to tag along with him on some errands he had to run. It was agreed, and Dave let me ride up front, prolly knowing that would be a new POV for me. Somewhere along the way I asked about something puzzling that had happened at the store earlier, and had been bothering me all day.
When exiting the store, I noticed a man about to enter that was going to reach the door at the same time as me. I stopped leaned forward and gave the door a pull to let him walk throw. The man, a black man, had seen me too, and he was also stopped. I met his eyes, and smiled the way you do when you are giving right a way. He did not smile back and did not move, diverting his eyes toward the ground. I didn't understand, but walked throw. As I passed the man, at the last second he looked up at me with a look of anger – and not just irritation, or frustration, it was the look of anger that I had thought was only possible between ppl who know each other. I did not explain my thoughts, or how strong the look was to the Constable, just the basic facts. At first I thought of the possibility that he somehow knew I was not from around there, and he wasn't about to be friendly with any dam stranger. I had pretty quickly decided that was not it, and that he just didn't like white ppl. But that I somehow knew was not the reason, or not the whole reason anyway. It seems obvious now, but at the time I was not ready for the answer.
The Constable, in a tone I had not heard him use before, or after, a tone that was almost scolding said, You can't do that sort of thing around here. He continued saying, I'm not saying it's right, but they know their place, and so does everyone else, and if he had walked throw that door and the wrong person had seen him do that, he could have had a load of problems. When he came out he could have got beat or worse, that's why he gave you that look.
Wow, this was the sort of racism I had only ever read about, or seen in movies, and then of a time 60 or 70 years in the past. I knew there were isolated cases – more in the south, of awful raciest acts, but I did not know that there were still whole communities that lived this way. Here was a civil servant, a somewhat high ranking police officer at that, telling me that they knew their place. He had said, he wasn't saying it was right, but he had not said it was wrong either.
Since then I have done a lot of thinking on the matter, and have never remembered that with anything other than sadness, but if you can imaging the hate that our civil war caused to the families of a whole generation decimated, both north and south. Add to that the humiliation and what had to feel like a great theft of their independence – the stealing of states rights, for the south. Independence that many of their ancestors fought and died for. And add one more layer of injustice, how, in many ways the north abandon the ppl of the south in their broken condition, or worse, failed to honor promises of relief in many cases. That's a lot of hate, a lot of hate passed down. Hate of Yankees, which I had heard too often later living in liberal Austin Tx. It was always tongue and cheek, but I knew some were not laughing so much inside. What I had not heard a lot of was hate of black and white, but I knew that was because ppl don't openly hate the enemy in their midst, but considering everything it would be naive to think there would be no hate left. I knew Austin was not like Many, but I also tried to keep in mind that things were not as nice as they appeared. And when a co-worker canceled a date with no explanation, and I had to hear from another co-worker, that it was because she had made the mistake of telling her sister, who told her mom, that she was going out with a white guy, I felt the hate first hand.
Now I'm not saying it is right, and I am saying it is wrong, very wrong, but if you think about it very deeply it should not be surprising. This is the difference between what colors the two POV's, and it is my opinion that we have a lot more here to worry about than the relatively benign racist tradition of the Dutch.
The dutch have been getting a lot of shit poured over them over this matter, usually in the most ignorant way, last year there was an American woman from the UN(!) who said things like "Why do the dutch need two santa clauses?!" 
Total lack of knowledge of our culture, but still having the need to tell us what to do.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, because I think most of your have such strong opinions on this matter that reading this won't change your mind, if you would make the effort to read my posts at all that is.
I know you feel like prejudice is something that in no way would describe you, but having your opinion ready without having any knowledge on the subject is very much that. being prejudice.
However, for those who do care, the origin of zwarte Piet, I will call it, Zwarte Piet and Winter Solstice.
The act of painting you face black dates back to centuries before Christ, it is a pagan ritual performed during and around Winter Solstice (now december 21st). It is a very spiritual tradition in many nature-religions all around the globe. think about that for a second, this was way, way before people knew about other places in the world, but evidence of the black-painting of faces is found in europe, asia and the middle eastern countries.
Before christianity took over Europe, these nature religions didn't have a 'hell', what is shown now as 'evil' was for them the dark period of the year. It wasn't anything negative, all the spirits were dark, because they were still underground, in the earth, where it was dark. In spring everything would come up and blossom. To celebrate the turning point of the year, winter solstice (the longest night of the year, after that it would be lighter and spring would arrive), they would paint their faces as black as the earth in which all the good spirits were laying.
As with all pagan religions, most of it's people and traditions were wiped out by the christians over the centuries. However, a few things sort of took it's place in the culture, the blackening of the faces survived in a few counties, for instance in the Netherlands but also in England (Morris dancers) and Tehran (Hajji Firuz) the latter being celebrated 5 days before new year. (winter solstice, again)
Now, onto Zwarte Piet.
Yes, it is true zwarte piet is Sinterklaas' helper, and it is true that he was (not anymore) depicted as a bit silly or dumb, like a unhandy side-kick, you know, the not-so-smart-but-funny sort of side-kick. 30 years ago he spoke broken dutch even! Not a person to look upto, but loved by everyone. These are all interpretations from the last 50 years, the racist part didn't even come up until about 5 years ago.
Now, let's have a look at what he actually looks like.
A black painted face, now, I shall not claim this is a pagan tradition, nor will I state this is an image of a moorish slave, because we simply do not know exactly where it comes from. The main issues is how it it perceived now, but this is influenced by the origin nonetheless. If it was a slave, do you think a slave would have the authority to punish others with his 'roe'? Let alone white children?! The roe (branches tied together to make a whip/flogger) is another pagan tradition. dates back centuries. Why would a slave carry a holy instrument? Same with his sack, another pagan symbol.
The costume resembles wear of spanish aristocrats in the 18th century (where Sinterklaas comes from) Why would a slave wear these kinds of extremely precious clothing? The earrings, the black curls, all signs of well-to-do spanish people. To me, it looks more like 'we' dressed up Piet of be of huge value instead of a second-class citizen.
This is the 'zwarte piet' of the German tradition (Krampus)
Looks like the devil right? Or at least the devil we all know from the christian traditions. This is one of the pagan earth spirits, black as the ground, before christianity took over this image, this was a 'good' spirit. In german tradition people paint their faces black with sinterklaas to resemble this earth creature.
In some religious environments these days, kids are told zwarte piet was the devil and forced by sinterklaas (a bishop) to do good, he 'tamed' the devil so to speak. In some towns in the dutch bible belt, sinterklaas isn't celebrated because it's seen as blasphemy.
If you ask kids, why's zwarte piet black, they'll all say it's because of the chimney they climb through.
To kids, zwarte Piet is ageless, genderless, and raceless, like Big Bird on Sesame Street for instance. Only us adults see those things, but we're the ones who know it's actually Laura's dad underneath the wig.
It's just too much of a coincidence to lay it down simply on the image of a spanish slave, there's so much more to the story and it's history. Zwarte piet is perceived as racist by some, but definitely not intended.
Any of this, is in NO WAY is related to the american tradition of 'blackface'.
Total lack of knowledge of our culture, but still having the need to tell us what to do. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, because I think most of your have such strong opinions on this matter that reading this won't change your mind, if you would make the effort to read my posts at all that is.
I know you feel like prejudice is something that in no way would describe you, but having your opinion ready without having any knowledge on the subject is very much that. being prejudice.
However, for those who do care, the origin of zwarte Piet, I will call it, Zwarte Piet and Winter Solstice.
The act of painting you face black dates back to centuries before Christ, it is a pagan ritual performed during and around Winter Solstice (now december 21st). It is a very spiritual tradition in many nature-religions all around the globe. think about that for a second, this was way, way before people knew about other places in the world, but evidence of the black-painting of faces is found in europe, asia and the middle eastern countries.
Before christianity took over Europe, these nature religions didn't have a 'hell', what is shown now as 'evil' was for them the dark period of the year. It wasn't anything negative, all the spirits were dark, because they were still underground, in the earth, where it was dark. In spring everything would come up and blossom. To celebrate the turning point of the year, winter solstice (the longest night of the year, after that it would be lighter and spring would arrive), they would paint their faces as black as the earth in which all the good spirits were laying.
As with all pagan religions, most of it's people and traditions were wiped out by the christians over the centuries. However, a few things sort of took it's place in the culture, the blackening of the faces survived in a few counties, for instance in the Netherlands but also in England (Morris dancers) and Tehran (Hajji Firuz) the latter being celebrated 5 days before new year. (winter solstice, again)
Now, onto Zwarte Piet.
Yes, it is true zwarte piet is Sinterklaas' helper, and it is true that he was (not anymore) depicted as a bit silly or dumb, like a unhandy side-kick, you know, the not-so-smart-but-funny sort of side-kick. 30 years ago he spoke broken dutch even! Not a person to look upto, but loved by everyone. These are all interpretations from the last 50 years, the racist part didn't even come up until about 5 years ago.
Now, let's have a look at what he actually looks like.
A black painted face, now, I shall not claim this is a pagan tradition, nor will I state this is an image of a moorish slave, because we simply do not know exactly where it comes from. The main issues is how it it perceived now, but this is influenced by the origin nonetheless. If it was a slave, do you think a slave would have the authority to punish others with his 'roe'? Let alone white children?! The roe (branches tied together to make a whip/flogger) is another pagan tradition. dates back centuries. Why would a slave carry a holy instrument? Same with his sack, another pagan symbol.
The costume resembles wear of spanish aristocrats in the 18th century (where Sinterklaas comes from) Why would a slave wear these kinds of extremely precious clothing? The earrings, the black curls, all signs of well-to-do spanish people. To me, it looks more like 'we' dressed up Piet of be of huge value instead of a second-class citizen.
This is the 'zwarte piet' of the German tradition (Krampus)
Looks like the devil right? Or at least the devil we all know from the christian traditions. This is one of the pagan earth spirits, black as the ground, before christianity took over this image, this was a 'good' spirit. In german tradition people paint their faces black with sinterklaas to resemble this earth creature.
In some religious environments these days, kids are told zwarte piet was the devil and forced by sinterklaas (a bishop) to do good, he 'tamed' the devil so to speak. In some towns in the dutch bible belt, sinterklaas isn't celebrated because it's seen as blasphemy.
If you ask kids, why's zwarte piet black, they'll all say it's because of the chimney they climb through.
To kids, zwarte Piet is ageless, genderless, and raceless, like Big Bird on Sesame Street for instance. Only us adults see those things, but we're the ones who know it's actually Laura's dad underneath the wig.
It's just too much of a coincidence to lay it down simply on the image of a spanish slave, there's so much more to the story and it's history. Zwarte piet is perceived as racist by some, but definitely not intended.
Any of this, is in NO WAY is related to the american tradition of 'blackface'.
Fay welcome to age of social media. Facts and history are irrelevant,the only thing that matters is like that awful Barry Manilow song Feelings.
(Ok so Barry Manilow never actually sang Feelings, but I feel like its a song he should have sung.)
People feel offended by the black face Zwarte Piet. Therefore it is offensive. It is a basic human right not to be offended, which is covered in the UN charter and the UN council on Human Rights (who's august members include Saudia Arabia, Russia, and Kazakhstan.) So this Dutch Santa Clause this is pretty much like apartheid and slavery. I can't believe you are defending a practice from the days of slavery..
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Fuck ya I am being sarcastic.
(Ok so Barry Manilow never actually sang Feelings, but I feel like its a song he should have sung.)
People feel offended by the black face Zwarte Piet. Therefore it is offensive. It is a basic human right not to be offended, which is covered in the UN charter and the UN council on Human Rights (who's august members include Saudia Arabia, Russia, and Kazakhstan.) So this Dutch Santa Clause this is pretty much like apartheid and slavery. I can't believe you are defending a practice from the days of slavery..
....
Fuck ya I am being sarcastic.
Fay_Galore said:
I think this post should really be the nail in the coffin to the debate, at least it was for me.
Regardless, I for one can't wait till the time painting your skin colour black makes us as uncomfortable as wearing a brown headed person wearing a blond wig. There really is nothing inherently wrong colouring your skin black if you aren't stereotyping a culture negatively.
I am sorry Fay. I had seen it mentioned that this tradition was 400 years old, and the only thing i knew about the Dutch was that around 400 years ago the Dutch were the dominant player in the slave trade for a short time, even though slavery was not legal in the Netherlands. That combine with many, or at least the few i read media blubs olny reporting on the perception of ppl who are up in arms about how racist this tradition is, without reporting that the black face is not at all about race in the first place, gave me the wrong impression thst it was about race. Just b/c a lot of ppl say it dies not make it true, and i know that, so i have no excuse. Again i am sorry.
I thought so it's a bit racists, it is nothing like the racism we have. Which gave me a good soap box to remind everyone here that we still have major race hate. I worry that too many think everything is fine, and in places like Many, things are far from fine.
It really is a shame that you have to defend the tradition over something that is nothing, or against things that are not even relevant.
I thought so it's a bit racists, it is nothing like the racism we have. Which gave me a good soap box to remind everyone here that we still have major race hate. I worry that too many think everything is fine, and in places like Many, things are far from fine.
It really is a shame that you have to defend the tradition over something that is nothing, or against things that are not even relevant.
Thank you camstory, please don't feel like you need to apologise. I can't really blame people who, at first or second glance, find this offending, because I know what it looks like (and that why I think we should change it a bit) but I'm happy you might have a better grasp on the concept now and know it's not really supposed to be compared to the US history of blackface, because it's such a whole different thing.
oh, and I said it dates back to the 16th century, around 1500, that's well before the whole VOC scandal, no slavery back then, luckily!
oh, and I said it dates back to the 16th century, around 1500, that's well before the whole VOC scandal, no slavery back then, luckily!
This posting about the history of Zwarte Piet can be read as "no no, we in Holland are not racist, it's history, it's a tradition", this is a very common feeling currently here in the Netherlands, we think we are good people, gay marriage, soft drugs, multicultural sociallity, etc etc, and now the rest of the word is telling us we are racists? Fuck the world, we are not !!!Fay_Galore said:....
Now, onto Zwarte Piet.
Yes, it is true zwarte piet is Sinterklaas' helper, and it is true that he was (not anymore) depicted as a bit silly or dumb, like a unhandy side-kick, you know, the not-so-smart-but-funny sort of side-kick. 30 years ago he spoke broken dutch even! Not a person to look upto, but loved by everyone. These are all interpretations from the last 50 years, the racist part didn't even come up until about 5 years ago.
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Technical you are right Fay, but it's a Sheldon way of thinking, the rest of the world looks at it more like Penny, we must switch to Penny's way of thinking, the world will be better if we do so, and Penny has boobs.
Let's drop this blackface thing, it can be done in one year, if the Dutch tv ( Sinterklaasjournaal ) makes a nice story that explains the change then the little kids will believe it.
And it's also big fun to piss off GeenStijl, De Telegraaf and all PVV voters.
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