A warning to bad models !!!

[RedHerby]

Sinterklaas did just arrive with his helpers, the Zwarte Pieten, bad models will be put in a jute bag and deported with his steamer to Spain !!!

That's what we do with bad girls in Holland !!!

 

[Jupiter551]

Uhh... wtf dude?

 

[curvyredhead]

I think I missed something here...

 

[TashaDutch]

haha this only makes sense to dutch people i guess... some explaination:

Sinterklaas (or more formally Sint Nicolaas or Sint Nikolaas; Saint Nicolas in French; Sankt Nikolaus in German) is a traditional Winter holiday figure still celebrated today in the Low Countries, including the Netherlands and Belgium, as well as French Flanders (Lille) and Artois (Arras). He is also well known in territories of the former Dutch Empire, including South Africa, Aruba, Suriname, Curaçao, Bonaire, and Indonesia. He is one of the sources of the holiday figure of Santa Claus in North America.

Although he is usually referred to as Sinterklaas, he is also known as De Goedheiligman (The Good Holy Man), Sint Nicolaas [ pronunciation } (Saint Nicholas) or simply as De Sint (The Saint).
He is celebrated annually on Saint Nicholas' eve (5 December) or on the morning of 6 December in the Netherlands, Belgium and Northern France. Originally, the feast celebrates the name day of Saint Nicholas — patron saint of children, sailors, and the city of Amsterdam, among others. Sint Nicholas being a bishop and this geographical spread make clear that the feast in this form has a Roman Catholic background.

Closely related figures are also known in German-speaking Europe and territories historically influenced by German culture, including: Switzerland (Samichlaus), Germany and Austria (Sankt Nikolaus); the region of South Tyrol in Italy; Nord-Pas de Calais, Alsace and Lorraine in France - as well as in Luxembourg (De Kleeschen), parts of Central Europe and the Balkans.

whole wiki about sinterklaas HERE

but basically.. the story goes that sinterklaas will take naughty children in his bag with him to spain.. (where he has a huge castle, so i wouldn't mind :lol: )

 

[Just Me]

I am not usually one to be politically correct or call for political correctness. But blackface is and always will be horribly racist to me. I don't care if it is a tradition, some traditions should be done away with. If you can not find a real black person willing to play the part then you really should rethink your tradition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

 

[RedHerby]

... but basically.. the story goes that sinterklaas will take naughty children in his bag with him to spain ...

This is what we tell to little kids in Holland, you believe it at age 3-6, and you are scared for the Zwarte Pieten.

Sinterklaas lives in Spain, however in November he goes with his steamer to Holland and will give presents to everybody on the eve of 5th december. Except if you where a naughty boy/girl this year, then you will be put into a jute bag and transported with his steamer to Spain.

Then at age 7-9 you will find out it's not real, thats a great feeling that all adults did lie to you for many years, then you think, ok ok, so God & Jesus are also fake? No no, adults continue to lie to you and tell you those are real.

And those helpers of Sinterklaas? Zwarte Piet, (Black Pete), yes that's blackface, so politic incorrect, but remarks about that are not allowed because it's tradition.

 

[Jupiter551]

And those helpers of Sinterklaas? Zwarte Piet, (Black Pete), yes that's blackface, so politic incorrect, but remarks about that are not allowed because it's tradition.

Well as to the rest, thankyou for the explanation, but slavery was a tradition too. For some tribes in New Guinea, cannabalism was a tradition. Tradition doesn't make something immune to criticism.

 

[camstory]

 

[southsamurai]

the blackface isnt blackface as we think of it in america and such... its not mimicry of african peoples, the myth predates most african slavery and exploitation anyway. the myth was built around much older pagan roots, as are a lot of things we take for granted as being of christendom. just working off of old memory here, but i thought that the black was from coal?

 

[Jupiter551]

the blackface isnt blackface as we think of it in america and such... its not mimicry of african peoples, the myth predates most african slavery and exploitation anyway. the myth was built around much older pagan roots, as are a lot of things we take for granted as being of christendom. just working off of old memory here, but i thought that the black was from coal?

Does the coal also cause the 'afro' wigs?

 

[camstory]

the blackface isnt blackface as we think of it in america and such... its not mimicry of african peoples, the myth predates most african slavery and exploitation anyway. the myth was built around much older pagan roots, as are a lot of things we take for granted as being of christendom. just working off of old memory here, but i thought that the black was from coal?

Does the coal also cause the 'afro' wigs?

Why sure it does, large red lips too. WOW, and I thought you knew everything too, Jup. :lol:

 

[Diana Blake]

Actually, southsamurai has a point even if it's a little confused. When Black Pete started becoming more of a controversial character many attempted to defend the tradition by saying that Black Pete was only that color from going up and down chimneys. His coloring was from soot. However, since many of the older stories refer to him specifically as Santa's black slave most people just shake their head and laugh at that excuse.

 

[Jupiter551]

Actually, southsamurai has a point even if it's a little confused. When Black Pete started becoming more of a controversial character many attempted to defend the tradition by saying that Black Pete was only that color from going up and down chimneys. His coloring was from soot. However, since many of the older stories refer to him specifically as Santa's black slave most people just shake their head and laugh at that excuse.

Wow, his black slave... if they were determined to hold on to the tradition why not have Santa emancipate his "slave" and have actual black people as Santa's "sidekick" instead of an offensive racially caricatured pantomime? At some point, people/societies/government etc just have to say "we were wrong, and now we'll fix it" rather than making excuses why it's okay to keep doing it.

 

[Mirra]

Did this silly, humorous thread seriously turn into a bit of an argument? Yet the religion thread didn't?

 

[southsamurai]

knew it was something like that anyway lol....of course when it comes to myth origins theres always disagreement since most of them predate written history, and even those that are after that were often written by historians or philosophers looking backwards rather than the people who originated the stories. Did the people in the pic have afro wigs? my eyesight isnt what it used to be but it looked like regular black hair rather than afro style. if thats the case then they were crossing from an ancient myth into the territory of a modern semi racist idea which is a different ball of wax entirely

 

[RedHerby]

Did this silly, humorous thread seriously turn into a bit of an argument? Yet the religion thread didn't?

hehe, it was a provocation of course.

Wow, his black slave... if they were determined to hold on to the tradition why not have Santa emancipate his "slave" and have actual black people as Santa's "sidekick" instead of an offensive racially caricatured pantomime? At some point, people/societies/government etc just have to say "we were wrong, and now we'll fix it" rather than making excuses why it's okay to keep doing it.

Correct, for me this is a case that shows it can be very difficult to put your beliefs into practice. As told in the elections thread, my political party is GroenLinks, anti-discrimination & pro multicultural society are one off our principles. However this tradition is so connected to my childhood and I value it very much, every year when this discussion pops up I have something like "Ok, you are right, but let's not discuss this these 3 weeks of the year, lets keep the tradition".

 

[Jupiter551]

Did this silly, humorous thread seriously turn into a bit of an argument? Yet the religion thread didn't?

hehe, it was a provocation of course.

Wow, his black slave... if they were determined to hold on to the tradition why not have Santa emancipate his "slave" and have actual black people as Santa's "sidekick" instead of an offensive racially caricatured pantomime? At some point, people/societies/government etc just have to say "we were wrong, and now we'll fix it" rather than making excuses why it's okay to keep doing it.

Correct, for me this is a case that shows it can be very difficult to put your beliefs into practice. As told in the elections thread, my political party is GroenLinks, anti-discrimination & pro multicultural society are one off our principles. However this tradition is so connected to my childhood and I value it very much, every year when this discussion pops up I have something like "Ok, you are right, but let's not discuss this these 3 weeks of the year, lets keep the tradition".

Well I read up on it, and it was only changed to a black slave sometime in the mid 19th century, before that it was a devil basically - not considered to be an African person in origin or form. Earlier than that it was an evil spirit, and even a pair of ravens that sat on Odin's shoulders.
The point is, keep your Black Pete but it's past due time he changed his form again, this time to something non-offensive.

 

[FrenchKitty]

tehhee dutch people



"Optiefen ouwe graftak"

"Oma moet huilen"

"Mies is blij, Mies kan lekker blijven zitten"

rofl.......
oh may i translate?
can i sit there? i'm old and a bit tired"
"fuck off, old walking dead"
"grandma cries"
"mies is happy. Now she can stay comfortably seated"
:lol:

 

[camstory]

tehhee dutch people



"Optiefen ouwe graftak"

"Oma moet huilen"

"Mies is blij, Mies kan lekker blijven zitten"

rofl.......
oh may i translate?
can i sit there? i'm old and a bit tired"
"fuck off, old walking dead"
"grandma cries"
"mies is happy. Now she can stay comfortably seated"
:lol:

I know it is crazy, but ever time I hear Dutch, my brain says, "Run that by me one more
time and I'm sure we'll understand it. :lol:

The second vid, why I wondered, until I got to the translation. :laughing-rolling:

 

[Jupiter551]

I know it is crazy, but ever time I hear Dutch, my brain says, "Run that by me one more
time and I'm sure we'll understand it. :lol:

The second vid, why I wondered, until I got to the translation. :laughing-rolling:

it's not that crazy, English and Dutch (languages) are kind of second cousins by a number of older languages (Low German, Old Norse, Frankish). The vast majority of English words have either a Germanic language origin, or a Norman/French origin (the Normans were also Germanic).

 

[Mirra]

Well I read up on it, and it was only changed to a black slave sometime in the mid 19th century, before that it was a devil basically - not considered to be an African person in origin or form. Earlier than that it was an evil spirit, and even a pair of ravens that sat on Odin's shoulders.
The point is, keep your Black Pete but it's past due time he changed his form again, this time to something non-offensive.

Yes yes... the story does sound strikingly similar to that of Krampus but a bit less Demonic. I'm looking forward to wearing my Krampus shirt once we get into December personally.

 

[southsamurai]

Well I read up on it, and it was only changed to a black slave sometime in the mid 19th century, before that it was a devil basically - not considered to be an African person in origin or form. Earlier than that it was an evil spirit, and even a pair of ravens that sat on Odin's shoulders.
The point is, keep your Black Pete but it's past due time he changed his form again, this time to something non-offensive.[/quote]


thanks jupe! my brain hasnt been able to hold any research the last week or two lol. side note: i have a teutonic knotwork of hugin and munin on my shoulder as a tat (the names of odinn's ravens, thought and memory)

 

[Zoomer]

So, what's the issue again? People putting make-up on to have black faces to depict a devil helper in (what is effectively) a pantomime is racist because it should only be played by black people instead? (which is what the offence started as). I guess having men in drag as the ugly sisters in Cinderella is sexist? What about pantomime animals?

Now that you found it is not a black slave but a depiction of the devil, it should be altered to prevent insult - to whom? The uneducated? Those jumping to conclusions? What should it become now - a person dressed in red with plastic devil horns and red makeup on their face/torso?

Slightly baffled.

 

[Just Me]

So, what's the issue again? People putting make-up on to have black faces to depict a devil helper in (what is effectively) a pantomime is racist because it should only be played by black people instead? (which is what the offence started as). I guess having men in drag as the ugly sisters in Cinderella is sexist? What about pantomime animals?

Now that you found it is not a black slave but a depiction of the devil, it should be altered to prevent insult - to whom? The uneducated? Those jumping to conclusions? What should it become now - a person dressed in red with plastic devil horns and red makeup on their face/torso?

Slightly baffled.

Not sure where your confusion is. It is a tradition that has changed many times over the centuries. Its current form is racist, to say the least. It is time for another change.

 

[Jupiter551]

Slightly baffled.

Then reread, it is currently a depiction of Santa's black slave, with black skin, enlarged puffy red lips, and an afro wig. Centuries ago it was depicted in other (pagan) forms, much like christmas itself.
To the people of the 19th century Holland (and probably 20th century america) I suspect Black Pete being a pagan spirit was FAR more offensive than him being a black slave.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I am bookmarking this thread, for the next time I get an argument with Dutch person about how racist America is..

On the other hand I try not to get too offended on behalf of other minorities.

 

[RoxieRed]

This is exactly what I thought of as soon as I poked into this thread! Thank you!
And that reminded me of this:

 

[TashaDutch]

haha i started to write about zwarte piet... but decided to delete it.. because i didn't wanna start the thread out that way..

we all have traditions that don't make any sense.. this however doesn't mean dutch people living today are seeing zwarte piet as a black slave.. and enjoying it
its tradition... ofcourse loads of people have asked question.. and they even tried to have blue/green/pink pieten.. but imagine what would happen if santa's helpers would turn into unicorns over night? the poor man allready had to stop smoking... kids are gonna think he started taking acid instead :lol:

i for one... have always liked the explaination about the chimney.. its all fake untill you turn 8,9 anyway.. would it be better to tell our kids that its a black slave? i think not
we don't go see the parades to tell our kids that some super old dude has hundreds of black people slaving for him.. its all just stories..
sinterklaas isn't really 900 years old either...

 

[FrenchKitty]

It's always slightly embarassing to witness little (or bigger........) kids pointing fingers at any Black person in a super (tiny)market and screaming "look look swarte piet!"
It's a bit better than "go back to africa" but not by much lol.

 

[RainbowBryte]

It's always slightly embarassing to witness little (or bigger........) kids pointing fingers at any Black person in a super (tiny)market and screaming "look look swarte piet!"
It's a bit better than "go back to africa" but not by much lol.

I dont really know much about this swarte piet guy but I was at the store with my kids once and an old dude with white hair and a beard walked by and my daughter was like mommy mommy look its santa!! Do kids like this piet guy?? If so i don't really see it as being that horrible that a small child might get confused.

Oh and black face is pretty rediculous!