The Real Stalking Thread.

AmberCutie said:

I selected NO on the poll.

The closest I've come (that I know of) is a regular of mine describing the google maps view of my UPS box location. While I adore him and it was pretty funny, it still felt a little weird having someone actually tell me outright that they googled the only address they have from me.

Oh, and I guess one other time, another regular of mine whom I played WoW with looked up my IP when I connected to his Vent server and named some city in LA where my ISP is located.

I know this sort of stuff happens, but when the members make a point to joke about it to their model friend, it's a little invasive.

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This is why I'm afraid to even joke about a model's location, even if I don't actually know where she lives. I'm afraid I'll say "How's the weather in Antarctica," when unbeknownst to me she lives on an iceberg and all of a sudden she thinks I'm stalking her.

But I do find that a lot of models aren't shy about revealing their general location--their state, and sometimes even their city. I guess everyone has varying levels of comfort.

I need to be able to select multiples..

i saw a guy ask a model "what street is the market on?" right after she said "i'm going to the market, bbl"

when i said "that's a stalker question" she said "yes, that is a stalker question"

I did not choose an option. None are specific enough. I don't consider googleing me or looking up information on the internet stalking. It is public information and I can not blame someone for being curious. Checking my profile often to see what others have written on my message wall or to see when I have been online. Again, public information and curiosity, so I would not consider that stalking. Hiding identity in other models rooms to see what is said or done. That might be stalking or spying. Not sure if there is a difference between the two. If there is a difference, is motivation the factor?

I posted something similar in the models only section and the results were much different.

Miss_Lollipop said:

I need to be able to select multiples..

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Poor Lolli! So I suppose I wouldn't make an impression if I were stalking you. 'Been there done that' kind of thing....I guess I will have to be more original.
No more romantic walks along the beach for us...

I had a regular try to guess my location and eventually I made up a whole new location to throw him off the scent. "Like, fine, you're right, I don't really live in X, I actually live in Y." He then said, "Haha. Alright, well I'm pretty sure you live in Z." (My real location.) Then he PM'd me and was like "Hey, I applied for a teaching job in Z! I guess we'll be finding out where you live pretty soon, huh? "

That's not exactly stalking but enough to make me uncomfortable.

This is not exactly on topic, but I think it is close enough.

Let me preface this story with a little info about me that I feel needs to be known so it is understood why I did what I did. At one point in my life you might say I was involved in a stalking relationship for the better part of 5 years. I was the stalked and my stalkers most often took the form of uniformed men and woman working as teams and driving very conspicuous uniform vehicles. Like me, they often worked outside the law, the difference was that they did so with impunity. (They were not very good stalkers, and very often overlooked key bits of evidence or connections that a good stalker would not have.) There were other stalkers who were on the same team, but did not typically wear uniforms, and carried gold badges. (They tended to be very good stalkers, and because I knew this, I became very good at covering my trail. That was a long time ago, and I rarely think in these terms anymore, but having once trained myself to think this way, I can not help but sometimes fall back into that mind set when I see an obvious stalker situation in front of me. Becoming good at not being stalked, also gives you the skill set to be a good stalker, as you have to think as the stalker does to avoid him.)

Shortly after joining this forum I saw a post from a Model here that was about a craigslist ad she had run. It told of some basic info about a lost item she was hoping to recover and that was why she had made the craigslist ad. I knew the Model vaguely, - had been in her room a few times, and knew what state she lived in. One of the times I had been in her room she was broadcasting from a tourist location, and I remembered that she had said she was tired and still had to drive 2 hours to get home. When that old mind set kicked in I would like to say that my only motivation to check these clues out was because I wished to alert the Model if she had given her self up, but I was motivated as much by my arrogance, and ego, saying, you can find her.

There were two possible Craigslist locations the fit within the 2 hour drive time parameter. There was one word she had used in her post here that was part of the description she said she left on the craigslist ad that I knew would not be a very common hit in a key word search. I checked the wrong craigslist first which took me about 15-20 minutes. when I went to the second craigslist, I found the ad first try.

The ad gave her phone #, and no exact address, but the street and cross street from which the item had disappeared. My first thought was to call and tell her to delete the ad right away, but I decided against this for two reasons. One; I did not want to freak her out, and I thought a phone call might do that. Two; and this was my greater concern, is I did not want to have any record of her personal info, and placing the call would give me that. I figured she would be checking her email pretty often, and there was a craigslist anon email contact attached to the ad. I explained who I was, and how I had found her. I also told her what ever she did not to email me back, - I did not mind if she had my email address, but I did not want hers' under such circumstances.

From what I remember I sent that email mid morning, and about 11pm that night I saw her on MFC. I went in and said hi. I then asked if she had got my email, thinking she had. She looked confused and started to ask me what I meant. I then explained via PM what I was talking about. That did indeed freak her out a bit, but it was unavoidable. She told her room something had come up and she had to go, and quickly logged off.

What I did was very junior grade detective work, and what is the scary thought to me is that most cam fans are not thinking this way, because why would they, but the ones you might have to worry about, are going to be thinking exactly this way.

I am going to give my honest opinion about the stalker thing that will prolly not set too well with some. I know as a man that in many ways I can not understand fully the vulnerability that a woman must feel. I also realize that anyone who has ever experienced a full on scary stalking is going to be very sensitive to the issue. And I absolutely understand erring to the safe side, because the idea that almost all cam fans are not going to be thinking like stalkers, is I think correct, but as my experience has shown it does not take much info to be dangerous if you happen to put it out there while a stalker is watching. (Potentially I could have cruised around the neighborhood on street view and found some prominent Victorian, or stone front home, called the Model claiming I had her missing item and had checked craigslist real quick before heading out of town and got lucky, and how long have you lived there, - you know that old Victorian two blocks from you, I grew up in that house, I'm headed out the door I'll drop it by, or 100 other ways of gaining her confidence once I have her #) You really can't be too careful, and the odds I think are pretty good that you might get away with being a little relaxed, but is being stalked the sort of thing you want to gamble on at any odds?

All that said, here's what might ruffle a few feathers, but I think any one who does not see this as a reasonable critique, is not looking at the whole picture with an unbiased eye. Or just does not pay any attention to this issue. There are times when stalking is not an issue and because a member, or model mentions something that in a different context could be a stalking concern, someone fails to see the true context and over reacts to the comment. When this happens, and it is not a stalking concern, it is like you as a member are being told you are evil, and it often also feels like the model concerned is being told she is a crazy person, or an idiot. And I don't even have a problem with someone framing what I and a model don't see as being a stalking issue, in the context of a stalking issue. I don't have a problem with anyone thinking I am possibly evil, and that my model friend is crazy or an idiot, but if we as grown adults are good with it, then keep those thoughts to yourself, or at least voice your personal concern via PM. Screaming STALKER every time there is any indication that a Model and a member might share personal info, or heaven forbid meet in person, IMhO is no different from crying wolf, and it has the same detrimental effect of desensitizing some to the fact that there are dangers out there. I'm done, and if you think I don't understand how huge this issue is, skip back 2 or 3 paragraphs and when you get to this one don't read it again, because it obviously makes you irrational. (Did I just say that out loud?)

PS. I don't mean for the last part of my post, (the rant), to be directed solely at Models, I purposely framed by criticism in a non gender manor, because, though I have seen Models react this way more often than members, I have seen times when it was a member that IMO has over reacted, and plenty of times when they have jumped on in support.

Shit hits fan in 3...2...

I think that camstory seems to miss the point. Just because it's possible, you know how, doesn't mean you go through the effort to do it. People who seek the security holes in our lives are not seen as good people for pointing it out, but bad people for seeking the security hole.

You did go out of your way to essentially stalk a girl, even if she didn't feel the effects of it. Is it even stalking if you don't cause any harm? Or is stalking the act of following the "clues" that were given.

I've been digitally stalked, my personal information spread across the internet, phones called nonstop, parents called nonstop.

I haven't been stalked for camming yet, I'm sure it will happen to some degree sooner or later. Some people are very obsessive, I think stalking is a sign of a mental illness and I get quite a few interesting fellows in my room.

I was stalked for a short period of time by a jealous girl, it was very strange- she was mimicking me in every way possible and would always be where I was. I'm not sure if she gave up or not, I moved and quit my job, deleted my old social networking accounts at the same time so she could have just lost touch.

I was about to choose B (cyber stalked), but then I noticed it's supposed to be cam-related only (duh, that's why it's in General Camming...lol). So, in that case...no.

And I agree with Evvie. I regret having shared personal info with people from the camming world, because it's just not very smart (I don't care how "nice" and "sweet" they are), and it's too late to take it back now.

I did not/do not deny that what I did could be considered stalking. For lack of a better term, I used to play it like a game, a very serious game, and in many ways no less complex than other games of strategy like Bridge, Go, Chess, etc. About ten years ago, I realized I still liked the mental work of the life style I had lived, even tho I had long since detested the life style itself. I was working as a delivery person at the time, and it seemed like almost on a weekly basis I would be at business and see mistakes they were making in security. I was no longer seeing these things with criminal intent, but it was my past that informed how I saw the world. Like someone who spent years building street bikes, and though no longer doing so will see the build of a bike at a stop light when it pulls up next to him, I can not - not see what I once learned to see in my past. I even played with the idea of trying to get a loan and start my own security consultant firm for small businesses, but getting bonded would have been impossible. (The only legit work an ex criminal is likely to get on the other team is as a bounty hunter, and I had no desire to chaise down drugged up bond jumpers.)

So, yea I stalked the Model in question, and I would do it again if I saw something so obvious right in front of me. I see no shame in it, as I see no shame in some one who analyzes the procedures, and hard wear of a businesses so they might inform the business owner how to be more secure, and safe.

But, the reason I came back to post, is because I have to admit I started thinking about my rant at the end of my last post, and realized that it was exaggerated in the scope I suggested. It was driven by a personal experience I had that I guess was still bugging me a bit, and I have seen it happen to others, but not frequently, and very rarely here. I do think that sometimes the whole stalker thing can get a little heated beyond what might be necessary, but no more than any other issue of great importance might, and it is understandable when it does.

Just Me said:

I did not choose an option. None are specific enough. I don't consider googleing me or looking up information on the internet stalking. It is public information and I can not blame someone for being curious. Checking my profile often to see what others have written on my message wall or to see when I have been online. Again, public information and curiosity, so I would not consider that stalking. Hiding identity in other models rooms to see what is said or done. That might be stalking or spying. Not sure if there is a difference between the two. If there is a difference, is motivation the factor?

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This post has many points to sum up this stuff, imo. Is a member who has a crush wrong for finding this info? People have skills, and they use them, doesn't alway's mean for bad ... I think there has to be a certain amount of "leway", if you will, for guy's to just get their freak on. Heck, your members want to know everything about you.

However, I know that there are people that can find anyone tomorrow if neccessary. I don't think anyone should underestimate the abilities of a motivated individual wanting to find them! Anyone that thinks a strong friend, or a BF with a gun, is going to stop the high level stalker that is motivated, needs to think twice, imo!

Imo, a simple rule is to be nice. Any young girl that decides to call out a stalker, and embarrass him/her, by saying something hurtful, could create the stalker. If someone breaks a rule, then be nice about it, tell the rule/consequece, and move on while being nice.

a couple of times over the years ive found it useful to be able to find people. having the skill set needed to do so means i think like that sometimes. every now and then on mfc a model (or a member) might slip up and give out some minor piece of data that can be followed to more direct information. one time i saw a young lady who had just said she wouldnt talk about where she was take a drink from a mug with a college logo on it, and the same logo was on her shirt, not too hard to figure things out from there. yeah she could just be a fan of the team, but if i was looking for her to recover a debt it would be all i needed. i did suggest in pm that she change shirts and get rid of the mug next time she went for a refill. she asked why. i explained. no biggie.

something as seemingly irrelevant as a building seen through a window can give some info. thing is what do you do when you figure something out? heck im good enough with accents that i can usually guess the state and general region just from that, so do i say something? not i.

its a lose lose proposition. if i give warning because i, just sitting there and thinking, (not doing any net searches, not cracking open books) figured out a location then im a douchebag for figuring it out. even though i cant really stop my brain from working. even pilled up and going on little sleep i still make connections fairly often. BUT if i say nothing at all then i feel like a jackass for not giving warning about something that the model probably would prefer not be visible/known.

and hell, even with pretty much everyone knowing im busted up and can barely make it to the doctor less than 10 miles away it would still make folk nervous that i even guessed close. and knowing that i make connections with seemingly useless data i have no idea what the threshold is. where would me saying something be useful? if maybe 3 people on mfc could make the same connections then is it worth it? i dunno, so i just keep my trap shut lol

Throbbin_One said:

Heck, your members want to know everything about you.

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Speak for yourself Stan. Some of us just want to chill and watch a woman be sexy.

I am naive and gullible, yes... but I really can't shake my lack of fear of getting stalked. If someone wants to come break in my window, I say bring it bitch, I'll shoot you in the face.
Edit: please don't break down my window, the blood would be so messy

And I stalk models sometimes. I find the puzzle of figuring out real information to be thrilling, I get all Sherlocky about it. Course I'd never do anything, but if I were a member I would make one of the creepiest passively internet stalky members ever.

PunkInDrublic said:

Throbbin_One said:

Heck, your members want to know everything about you.

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Speak for yourself Stan. Some of us just want to chill and watch a woman be sexy.

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Yes! Best answer ever.

I feel there is some confusion between the difference of looking up info on a model because you think you have a right to/don't like her boundaries/want to/want to be a spy, and actually STALKING.

When I told those members my real name in my early career, I'll bet you five bucks all of them Googled me looking for more information. That is not stalking. Yes, I probably would have been miffed if I found out - and they knew I would not be happy. But it wasn't an act of stalking, it was an act of Googling, and there is a difference.

There is a blanket cultural decision that what we want does not matter as soon as a member decides to "get his freak on". What a model wants in these situations is always of lowest priority. It doesn't matter if she is okay with you researching her or not, and the idea that it matters to the decision of members is laughable. Therefore, it is easy to cut the model out of the equation altogether. Our actions are of least importance.

I do believe that every member who does extracurricular research on a model has some level of willful assholery (no, this is not just seeing a landmark and saying, "why, she must be in St. Louis!"). There is some point when you say, "to fuck with what she wants, I'm not hurting anyone," and carry on trying to friend her brother on Facebook so you can see her extended feed. Anyone who has researched a model and claims the contrary is exercising willful delusion.

As much as it may be upsetting or disturbing to models, and as much as members absolutely do not care about that, casual research doesn't count as stalking.

Stalking only begins when the member begins to pursue or harass a model. It is possible to stalk a model with only research even if you don't do anything about it. If you have a map on your wall with pins at every rest-stop she's ever peed at, and if you used your 1337 spy skillz to find out her apartment building and number, you're a stalker, bro. Once the casual desire for information ends and the drive to need that information begins, u be stalkin.

Similarly, harassing a model (regardless of how much information is obtained) with great resistance to her efforts to get rid of you is stalking, which many people do both with gusto and confusion ("why does she keep blocking me?").

I do agree that models should stop crying 'wolf' whenever someone says "hey I found your home phone number through craigslist." Even if the model wishes the member had not researched her for "her own good", that is not an act of stalking until it becomes persistant. And why a model would use her model identity to share a Craigslist post for her personal identity is beyond me

Evvie, I am pretty sure the lady did not use her model persona to share the ad, just talk about it. I talk about shit like that every day. It sounds to me that it went like this:

1. Model was in tourist location; member recognizes and pinpoints that location.
2. Model mentions, "Oh I lost my HR Pufnstuf wallet yesterday and I posted a Craigslist ad." She also mentioned being a two-hour drive from home.
3. Member, knowing her current location, realizes there are only two places her city could be that are a two hour drive from her. He checks the Craigslist postings of each one, and easily finds her becaus she has the only ad with "Pufnstuf" in it.
4. This yields the model's rough location as well as her IRL phone number. Member thinks about how it would be possible to show up posing as a stranger with her item and gain access to her home.

Could this have been avoided? Totally. But I still think that goes a bit beyond "good intentions" and "general innocent curiosity". Is it stalking? Probably not. But it is really fucking creepy, and also major assholery.

Edit: I realize now I may have misunderstood Evvie but I'm leaving this because I feel my last paragraph is relevant. Lol.

southsamurai said:

its a lose lose proposition. if i give warning because i, just sitting there and thinking, (not doing any net searches, not cracking open books) figured out a location then im a douchebag for figuring it out. even though i cant really stop my brain from working. even pilled up and going on little sleep i still make connections fairly often. BUT if i say nothing at all then i feel like a jackass for not giving warning about something that the model probably would prefer not be visible/known.

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This ^^

I too feel like a jackass because I've given up alerting models. Too many of the conversations I've had when reporting things were quite unwelcome. So you're on your own, ladies. I hope you make smart decisions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again some people have to much time on there hands. I can think of a million things I'd rather be doing then trying to track some one down over the internet. :?

wjr3 said:

southsamurai said:

its a lose lose proposition. if i give warning because i, just sitting there and thinking, (not doing any net searches, not cracking open books) figured out a location then im a douchebag for figuring it out. even though i cant really stop my brain from working. even pilled up and going on little sleep i still make connections fairly often. BUT if i say nothing at all then i feel like a jackass for not giving warning about something that the model probably would prefer not be visible/known.

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This ^^

I too feel like a jackass because I've given up alerting models. Too many of the conversations I've had when reporting things were quite unwelcome. So you're on your own, ladies. I hope you make smart decisions.

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I am going to modestly suggest that models have survived safely well before you came on the scene and will continue to do so long after.

I feel some members have the idea that if THEY do not alert models to security concerns, then nobody will and it is just a matter of time before someone else exploits the loophole.

I feel that for many models, this is not true. You have no idea who she is working with or how she handles her security. Maybe this is why so many models are unwelcoming when third parties take it upon themselves to work on a model's security for her...

LilyEvans said:

Evvie, I am pretty sure the lady did not use her model persona to share the ad, just talk about it. I talk about shit like that every day. It sounds to me that it went like this:

1. Model was in tourist location; member recognizes and pinpoints that location.
2. Model mentions, "Oh I lost my HR Pufnstuf wallet yesterday and I posted a Craigslist ad." She also mentioned being a two-hour drive from home.
3. Member, knowing her current location, realizes there are only two places her city could be that are a two hour drive from her. He checks the Craigslist postings of each one, and easily finds her becaus she has the only ad with "Pufnstuf" in it.
4. This yields the model's rough location as well as her IRL phone number. Member thinks about how it would be possible to show up posing as a stranger with her item and gain access to her home.

Could this have been avoided? Totally. But I still think that goes a bit beyond "good intentions" and "general innocent curiosity". Is it stalking? Probably not. But it is really fucking creepy, and also major assholery.

Edit: I realize now I may have misunderstood Evvie but I'm leaving this because I feel my last paragraph is relevant. Lol.

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This confuses the hell out of me. My exorcise in seeing if I could find the Model was 100% to see if it was possible. If it was possible for me than it would be possible for someone else. If it were possible for some one else who might have bad attentions and I knew this, I think it would be irresponsible to not tell the Model of the hole in her security.

I have said all along why I followed this mistake was because it was right in front of me, it was too obvious to be overlooked by someone who's mind thinks in such a way. I do not look for these holes. If I actively sought out the holes in Model's security, I am sure I would find Models who were not as secure as they believe they are, but I have no desire to play P.I. to the cam models of the universe, or even of MFC/ACF. The mistake this model made, I thought might be so blatant that it really should be corrected, if I was right. I checked it out, and was right, and told the model. I simply though, lets not make it quite so easy.

Why this is somehow an assholely thing to do I am baffled, :confusion-confused:

Because it makes you look like a total creeper. Y'all should know this by now...we have this conversation on here like once a month or something? LOL. Nobody is accusing you of being bad, bad men. If you say to yourself one day "Gee, I wonder if there's a way I can find out.....," and then you do find what you're looking for, you may have good intentions in giving her a heads up (and for the love of God, please don't ever reveal this to her in public chat, or you'll just look like a troll)...she might thank you for the heads up, but part of her may also be thinking "Uh...what the fuck was he doing to even find that out in the first place? Creepy!" That's what I did...I thanked the guy, but also thought to myself:

camstory said:

LilyEvans said:

Evvie, I am pretty sure the lady did not use her model persona to share the ad, just talk about it. I talk about shit like that every day. It sounds to me that it went like this:

1. Model was in tourist location; member recognizes and pinpoints that location.
2. Model mentions, "Oh I lost my HR Pufnstuf wallet yesterday and I posted a Craigslist ad." She also mentioned being a two-hour drive from home.
3. Member, knowing her current location, realizes there are only two places her city could be that are a two hour drive from her. He checks the Craigslist postings of each one, and easily finds her becaus she has the only ad with "Pufnstuf" in it.
4. This yields the model's rough location as well as her IRL phone number. Member thinks about how it would be possible to show up posing as a stranger with her item and gain access to her home.

Could this have been avoided? Totally. But I still think that goes a bit beyond "good intentions" and "general innocent curiosity". Is it stalking? Probably not. But it is really fucking creepy, and also major assholery.

Edit: I realize now I may have misunderstood Evvie but I'm leaving this because I feel my last paragraph is relevant. Lol.

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This confuses the hell out of me. My exorcise in seeing if I could find the Model was 100% to see if it was possible. If it was possible for me than it would be possible for someone else. If it were possible for some one else who might have bad attentions and I knew this, I think it would be irresponsible to not tell the Model of the hole in her security.

I have said all along why I followed this mistake was because it was right in front of me, it was too obvious to be overlooked by someone who's mind thinks in such a way. I do not look for these holes. If I actively sought out the holes in Model's security, I am sure I would find Models who were not as secure as they believe they are, but I have no desire to play P.I. to the cam models of the universe, or even of MFC/ACF. The mistake this model made, I thought might be so blatant that it really should be corrected, if I was right. I checked it out, and was right, and told the model. I simply though, lets not make it quite so easy.

Why this is somehow an assholely thing to do I am baffled, :confusion-confused:

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Camstory, if I recall your post correctly, you did not see something obvious and have a lightbulb go off in your head that said, "ahah! I know where she lives!"

It is my understanding that you actively worked and put together pieces of information, including going on Craigslist and searching for her post. That is the definition of actively seeking out a hole. Trying to say you can't "help" it because your mind "thinks a certain way" is like me saying I can't help but punch strangers in the face because my mind just wants to. It demonstrates a base lack of self control that all adults possess and ends up sounding like an excuse. "I have to violate people's privacy, I can't help it" is not something a judge is likely going to listen to, you know?

The reason actively seeking out holes is a display of assholery is because you KNOW the model does not want you to. "Haha, fuck what she wants, I'm going to find out her telephone number!" is something that can be interpreted in very few ways. When you seek out personal information on a model, 99% of the time you know she would not want you to. And yet, dudes still do it - because they don't care about the model's boundaries. Every time you set out on an expedition of off-site research, it always begins with "fuck what she wants". Intention does not matter. If you actively seek out personal information on a model without her express consent, you're an asshole. There is no difference between a member who feels justified in their actions or not. The results are still the same. Another member has tracked down your personal information and can do whatever they want with it.

And I think if you go out of your way to find a model's personal information, calling yourself a good person who wouldn't do anything bad with that info is a little delusional... you have already proven that you don't care about the model's wants and you have already proven you will do what you want with her to make yourself happy.

Maybe people should try asking ahead of time if they can try to ferret out the model's security risks. Models actually tend to be a fair bit more open to that than someone saying, "guess who knows where you live? This guy!" out of the blue. If you actually want to help a model instead of justifying quasi-stalking tendencies, securing permission first is a good step. If it actually WAS a surprise thing (like, Samurai seeing the mug and the t-shirt and easily putting together that she was on a college campus), that is different. Seeing stuff happen on cam and on Twitter, and saying, "well she's obviously in the Grand Canyon" is different. Saying to yourself, "I bet I can figure out where she lives if I spent a few hours googling some info" is what I'm talking about. The fact that this is seen as normal and acceptable behavior baffles me.