#WomenAgainstFeminism

[Joeternal]

This thing is blowing up on Twitter, and I personally love every single woman who posted on this page.

http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/

Thoughts?

 

[JickyJuly]

I think #EveryoneForUnderstandingFeminism or #AgainstMisuseOfFeminism would be better. It's sad that feminism even needs a name and worse that people pervert it into something it's not. Every good, necessary movement has people who pervert it for their own purposes. But, I think just throwing "women against feminism" out there is dangerous. Too many women (and men) already misunderstand what feminism really stands for.

 

[Amelia Liddell]

this post makes my head and heart hurt

 

[LaceyRoyce]

This thing is blowing up on Twitter, and I personally love every single woman who posted on this page.

http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/

Thoughts?

I think that page shows how badly misunderstood feminism is..
Some of the photos are talking about what ONE woman claiming to be feminist did or said - and thereby deciding all feminists must think this way? i guess?

There's things like

"im a feminist because it shouldn't be so shocking that my brother has custody of his son"
-Equal rights .. is what feminism is supposed to be about. So why would this be shocking?

"I'm a feminist because I'm hetrosexual and a world without men would suck"
-Er... yes a world without men would suck. i'm not sure what that has to do with feminism? As far as I'm aware feminism does not intend to rid the planet of men.

"I don't need femnism because I am not a victim"
Again I don't understand this one.. why would feminists decide you're a victim?

I picked 3 out of the bunch but there are many many more that demonstrate there is a really fundamental misunderstanding going on about what feminism wants to create.

There are some really valid critiques of modern feminism on this page - especially talking about how we engage with people in ways that obviously make them feel put down. Some of the signs are talking about how large groups of feminists have made them feel stupid, or called them names.

The sad part is.. its all getting washed away in this plethora of other stuff that makes no sense.

 

[LailaBaise]

I think that page shows how badly misunderstood feminism is..
Some of the photos are talking about what ONE woman claiming to be feminist did or said - and thereby deciding all feminists must think this way? i guess?

This is the one that really stood out to me too. Ridiculous. :naughty:

 

[Joeternal]

I especially like this one:

 

[LaceyRoyce]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/6f847fe3dfc1 ... o1_500.jpg

like this one... is another perfect example.

Where on earth ..are these women thinking that they can't have frienships with men and be feminists?


The more i look at this page the more i realize that feminism's biggest challenge is to help people understand what it means. I keep seeing signs talking about "because equality is better than domination"


... and im like. So.. yup... uhuh.. you're a feminist?

Half of these women ARE feminists according to the values they put on their signs and don't even realize it???

 

[JoleneBrody]

I'm with my ladies above.
I hate that this is pushing away feminism rather than pushing away the extremists and reclaiming the honest truth that is SUPPOSED to be feminism.

I have a lot of feelings and thoughts on the modern Trendy fems... or tumblr Feminists who use Feminism as some safe way to be hateful and mean... I think a lot of women share my same feelings.

But this seems like it's just adding yet ANOTHER negative misunderstanding that will even further create separation.... just like the tumblr feminists... in some sad misinformed version of equality promoting.

Everyone is still choosing a side here... it's when we stop picking sides that we've got it right.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

I especially like this one:

What is it about it that you like? I'm glad this woman feels she is not a victim.

Because feminism is not about being victimized... its about empowering ourselves.

 

[Joeternal]

I especially like this one:

What is it about it that you like? I'm glad this woman feels she is not a victim.

Because feminism is not about being victimized... its about empowering ourselves.

I like it because it makes me smile.

I'm surprised that there are only one sided responses so far. Or maybe those who think differently are afraid to speak up.

 

[Fay_Galore]

I'm gonna add this here and arrogantly assume a lot, most, if not all, ladies here agree with this.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

Nobody should be afraid to speak up here. There are plenty of differing opinions on this forum. We aren't the type to lynchmob someone for speaking a different opinion. It's one of the reasons I like it here. I know there are a couple of camgirls who are anti-feminism on the forum and have talked about it here before without being attacked.. just debated.


"I like it because it makes me smile".
The sign itself is an awesome positive message. It makes me sad that she's relating it to feminism though.

 

[mynameisbob84]

#ClearlyPeopleNeedEducatingOnWhatFeminismIsAndWhyItIsStillNeededInTodaysSocietyAndWhileThereArePlentyOfSoCalledFeminists
WhoAreReallyJustBitterManHatersAndEnjoyPlayingTheVictimAndMakingEverythingAFeministIssueThePeopleInThisMinorityAreInNoWay
JustificationForPretendingThatWeDon'tNeedFeminismAndToThinkThatWayExposesAnIncrediblyReductiveAndAsinineUnderstandingOf
WhatFeminismReallyIs

Right... I'mma go make a start on getting that trending...

 

[AerynShade]

Bob, I like you.

 

[LilLitaRose]

I saw a post a while ago about why women still need feminism, and to prove what feminism has done for the generation of women and girls today.

Some of the best points that are clear in my mind are the argument that if women don't need feminism, then they shouldn't mind not being able to vote, own property, work outside the home, and not be fired from jobs for becoming pregnant. (That last one STILL happens, which is why we need feminism).

We still need it because male rape victims are told to stop being a whiner and that he should've just enjoyed it.
We still need it because the ratio of female earnings to male is still abysmal.
We still need it because men are being taught that they have to be macho and get the pretty girl, or they're not a man.

I am a person who doesn't like the term feminism because of the negative bias it has. But I respect what true feminist movements are trying to do.
Both sides have extremeists. And they're both scary as hell.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Bob, I like you.

Why thank ya :dance:

 

[weirdbr]

I have to agree that the campaign is misguided, but to me it's an indication of how most (if not all) rights movements are failing currently - while the extremists scream their crazy points of view with as much energy as they can muster, the reasonable folks don't react (or react with limited energy) and the rest of society then sees the movement as being represented solely by the extremists, leading to feminism becoming synonym to 'men hating', MRA as 'woman hating' and so on.

It should be a call to action for everyone who believes in those causes and isn't an extremist to actively speak up against those crazies (but avoid discussing with them - I tried that once and gave up since every single argument I gave was rejected with 'you are wrong and need to be schooled' - if there's no willingness to have a two-sided conversation, I won't waste my energy.)

 

[RedHerby]

I'm gonna add this here and arrogantly assume a lot, most, if not all, ladies here agree with this.

Woman, as a man I must now correct your line.

I'm gonna add this here and arrogantly assume a lot, most, if not all, ladies and gentlemen here agree with this.

so, that's better.

 

[SexySteph]

What bugged me most about this trending was when I was looking at it the other day a majority of those using the hashtag seemed to be guys. :? "Because sometimes you need your dick sucked. #WomenAgainstFeminism" what??

I think that page shows how badly misunderstood feminism is..
Some of the photos are talking about what ONE woman claiming to be feminist did or said - and thereby deciding all feminists must think this way? i guess?

There's things like

"im a feminist because it shouldn't be so shocking that my brother has custody of his son"
-Equal rights .. is what feminism is supposed to be about. So why would this be shocking?

I quoted this because I want to explain what this quote meant. What they are trying to say is in modern day America is that it IS considered shocking for a man to have custody of his kids, the poster is saying that idea is sexist and that's why they are a feminist, because feminism is fighting against the sexist idea that men can't be good parents and that child-rearing is the woman's realm.

 

[Fay_Galore]

I'm gonna add this here and arrogantly assume a lot, most, if not all, ladies here agree with this.

Woman, as a man I must now correct your line.

I'm gonna add this here and arrogantly assume a lot, most, if not all, ladies and gentlemen here agree with this.

so, that's better.

hehe, touché!

 

[LaceyRoyce]

What bugged me most about this trending was when I was looking at it the other day a majority of those using the hashtag seemed to be guys. :? "Because sometimes you need your dick sucked. #WomenAgainstFeminism" what??

I think that page shows how badly misunderstood feminism is..
Some of the photos are talking about what ONE woman claiming to be feminist did or said - and thereby deciding all feminists must think this way? i guess?

There's things like

"im a feminist because it shouldn't be so shocking that my brother has custody of his son"
-Equal rights .. is what feminism is supposed to be about. So why would this be shocking?

I quoted this because I want to explain what this quote meant. What they are trying to say is in modern day America is that it IS considered shocking for a man to have custody of his kids, the poster is saying that idea is sexist and that's why they are a feminist, because feminism is fighting against the sexist idea that men can't be good parents and that child-rearing is the woman's realm.

I misquoted this, sorry! It should have said "I don't need feminism because it shouldn't be so shocking that my brother has custody of his son"

ACTUALLY i misquoted a couple of them. The one underneath I wrote "im a feminist" when it should have said "I don't need feminism"


The three examples I quoted were against feminism, not for it. Sorry for the mix up. Too late to edit

 

[JerryBoBerry]

We still need it because the ratio of female earnings to male is still abysmal.

I disagree with that wholeheartedly.

http://www.warrenfarrell.net/

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Earn-...?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1407786142&sr=1-1

Controversial and exhaustively researched, gender expert Warren Farrell's latest book Why Men Earn More takes as its stunning argument the idea that bias-based unequal pay for women is largely a myth, and that women are most often paid less than men not because they are discriminated against, but because they have made lifestyle choices that affect their ability to earn.Why Men Earn More argues that while discrimination sometimes plays a part, both men and women unconsciously make trade-offs that affect how much they earn. Farrell clearly defines the 25 different workplace choices that affect women's and men's incomes -- including putting in more hours at work, taking riskier jobs or more hazardous assignments, being willing to change location, and training for technical jobs that involve less people contact -- and provides readers with specific, research-supported ways for women to earn higher pay. Why Men Earn More, with its brashness in the face of political correctness, is sure to ignite a storm of media controversy that will help to make this thoroughly pragmatic exposé Warren Farrell's next bestseller.

From Publishers Weekly
Why do men earn more than women? Because they deserve to, argues this contrarian challenge to feminist conventional wisdom. Men work longer hours at more dangerous and disagreeable jobs. They more readily accept night shifts, hardship postings to Alaska and entrepreneurial risks. Men get in-demand degrees in engineering, while women get degrees in French literature. Female librarians earn less than garbagemen, not because of discrimination, but because so many applicants compete for the safe, clean, comfortable, convenient, fulfilling jobs women prefer. Indeed, the author insists, statistics show that women and men with equal experience and qualifications, doing the same job, for the same hours, under the same conditions-get paid the same.

There's several parts to this video (so you'd have to go to youtube to see the rest) where he's talking about the reason men make more is simply because they earn it. It has nothing to do with a gender bias, it's job related choices that are different.

 

[JickyJuly]

We still need it because the ratio of female earnings to male is still abysmal.

I disagree with that wholeheartedly.

http://www.warrenfarrell.net/

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Earn-...?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1407786142&sr=1-1

Controversial and exhaustively researched, gender expert Warren Farrell's latest book Why Men Earn More takes as its stunning argument the idea that bias-based unequal pay for women is largely a myth, and that women are most often paid less than men not because they are discriminated against, but because they have made lifestyle choices that affect their ability to earn.Why Men Earn More argues that while discrimination sometimes plays a part, both men and women unconsciously make trade-offs that affect how much they earn. Farrell clearly defines the 25 different workplace choices that affect women's and men's incomes -- including putting in more hours at work, taking riskier jobs or more hazardous assignments, being willing to change location, and training for technical jobs that involve less people contact -- and provides readers with specific, research-supported ways for women to earn higher pay. Why Men Earn More, with its brashness in the face of political correctness, is sure to ignite a storm of media controversy that will help to make this thoroughly pragmatic exposé Warren Farrell's next bestseller.

From Publishers Weekly
Why do men earn more than women? Because they deserve to, argues this contrarian challenge to feminist conventional wisdom. Men work longer hours at more dangerous and disagreeable jobs. They more readily accept night shifts, hardship postings to Alaska and entrepreneurial risks. Men get in-demand degrees in engineering, while women get degrees in French literature. Female librarians earn less than garbagemen, not because of discrimination, but because so many applicants compete for the safe, clean, comfortable, convenient, fulfilling jobs women prefer. Indeed, the author insists, statistics show that women and men with equal experience and qualifications, doing the same job, for the same hours, under the same conditions-get paid the same.

There's several parts to this video (so you'd have to go to youtube to see the rest) where he's talking about the reason men make more is simply because they earn it. It has nothing to do with a gender bias, it's job related choices that are different.

Even the way that study is worded is completely sexist. Women like French Lit? Gag. I'm sure plenty of women would prefer to be garbage MEN over librarians. The name garbage man kind of deters them from applying doesn't it? When one of the job qualifications implied is having a penis, how will women have equal experience to do the same job for the same hours? Of course, all the girls here are in sex work and, thus, have found the one profession where the tables are turned. Booya! Hehehe. There's zero reason to even suggest that women are equally paid. Most fields historically dominated by women still struggle for decent wages and respect even now when men are welcomed to them... teaching, nursing, secretarial.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

I'm against "modern day feminism" which is NOT true feminism.
I'm against the woman who yelled at my guy friend for holding the door open for her.
I'm against the girl on tumblr that said the little boy who was raped by a woman is not a victim, but a predator.
I'm against the woman who wouldn't hire my bf even though he is one of the best in his field, because she ONLY hires women.
I'm against feminists that are anti-sex work.
But those aren't feminists. Those are insane women who label themselves incorrectly.
It's no different than "Christians" who bomb abortion clinics. You aren't Christian, because you aren't like Christ. You took an idea and spun it to suit your own agenda as an excuse to hurt others.

 

[Shaun__]

I think #womenagainstmisandry would be better for the women posting there, feminism has nothing to do with their complaints. I think equal rights should be arrived at by bringing people up not tearing people down, and that is what feminism is about.

It was women saying they should be able to vote, not that men should not be allowed to vote. It was women saying they could do that job, not that men should not be allowed to do it. It was women saying they should be able to control their bodies, chose what they wear, go where they wanted to go, and other perfectly reasonable things.

Last time I checked though there are many places around the world where those kind of things are not true. Last year there was a story about a very young girl, and it was about how she had dressed too old for her age. Things like that tell me that I personally still need feminism to help end that kind of injustice.

 

[Violet October]

Something I've been talking to Ren about lately:


I will call myself a feminist until I am blue in the face, but part of Feminism's problem is the language they use. Special interest groups are completely necessary. You absolutely CAN NOT approach every social problem/injustice with "but I'm an egaltarian! I'm for everyone!" That will solve nothing because it's too broad, and specific groups have to stand up to bring attention to the problems they face. The gay rights group, feminism, EVEN men's rights activists need to exist (though they don't exist in the way they need to right now). BUT SPECIAL INTEREST DOES NOT MEAN EQUALITY. Because special interests groups on accident hurt others in their fight.

The word that should be used is justice.

Lux just told me a few days ago about a graphic she saw on tumblr that sums this up perfectly:
Say there's a group of people in all different sizes standing in front of a fairly tall fence trying to look over it. What happens if you give everyone the same size box to stand on? The really short people still can't see over it, and there are some really tall people who could see over the fence without the box and are now just even taller.

Special interest groups are fighting for justice. And when we all have justice, we will have equality.

If a woman PERSONALLY doesn't believe she needs feminism, that's fine. But I don't agree with thinking that feminism as a special interest group is unecessary, because the fight for justice is still ongoing. Until we have finished the fight for things like campaigning for sex ed, same sex marriage, equal pay, maternity leave, reproductive health access, transgender health care, representation, implementing sexual assault/harassment policies, getting women into stem, etc, abolishing the gender roles that are instilled at such a young age (and in my opinion affect boys more than girls. Girls can wear pants and do sports, and be a "tomboy" with no issues for the most part while young boys are told they can't play with dolls, take dance classes, etc)



******Edited to add:
A something kind of both on topic and off: I don't believe there is a "rape culture" in the way feminism talks about it. There is a rape sub-culture and a violence culture. If you want to argue that there is a rape culture by only talking about coercive rape, I will whole heartedly agree... but that goes on both sides. Both men and women are coercive equally as often. The physical rape we like to talk about stems from our violence culture. Just using this as another example of the language feminists use.
Language is SO DANGEROUS when used incorrectly.

I'm against "modern day feminism" which is NOT true feminism.
I'm against the woman who yelled at my guy friend for holding the door open for her.
I'm against the girl on tumblr that said the little boy who was raped by a woman is not a victim, but a predator.
I'm against the woman who wouldn't hire my bf even though he is one of the best in his field, because she ONLY hires women.
I'm against feminists that are anti-sex work.
But those aren't feminists. Those are insane women who label themselves incorrectly.
It's no different than "Christians" who bomb abortion clinics. You aren't Christian, because you aren't like Christ. You took an idea and spun it to suit your own agenda as an excuse to hurt others.

Completely agreed. Those are fringe feminists and should be ignored. Every movement has the "fringe" part which is so dangerous to the actual movement that's trying to do the right thing. Feminists who assume all men are predatory, etc need to sit down.
Wanting justice is the right way to go. Wanting women to be superior to men and ignoring the fact that men are people and face issues as well is stupid and dangerous.

 

[Kokoro]

I am not against feminism. I am against Tumblr feminism. I am so sick and tired of people saying they need feminism because "stare rape" is a thing, because you "got PTSD from 4chan", or because "a sexy watermelon is a Halloween costume". No. That is not why you should need feminism. You should need feminism because there are counties where women are not considered equal to men. They are forced into arranged marriages and if they refuse they are savagely beaten and even killed. Woman are forced to cover everything when they go out in public. They can't vote or hold positions of power. That is why I think you should need feminism.

I once saw an interview with Sasha Grey. She said that feminism has been "watered down and packaged and sold like McDonalds" I couldn't agree more. I hate that the face of feminism has become what people write on Tumblr.

 

[Joeternal]

I don't really have anything to add, I was just curious to see what the responses would be here. The biggest problem that Tumblr page gets at is that modern, present-day feminism is fundamentally anti-male. It's good to see that there are women who reject that. The idea that all men are oppressors, predators, and so forth is pervasive in feminism, and it has led to real and serious mistreatment and problems.

 

[Alexandra Cole]

The biggest problem that Tumblr page gets at is that modern, present-day feminism is fundamentally anti-male.

It isn't, but it's depressing that it's perceived that way.

Misandrists aren't feminists. They're bigots.

 

[Aella]

Woman against (western) feminism here.

People say a lot that if you're against feminism, you don't really know what feminism is, and I find that to be insulting.

Wikipedia defines feminism as a movement of 'equal rights for women,' which is pretty damn vague. Feminism has encompassed many years, many different movements, and many people, and what feminism means to society keeps changing. We have this ideal of how things 'should be,' and frequently people attach the label of 'feminism' to it - regardless of what feminism actually means to society.

I don't identify as a feminist because, based on everything I have seen from feminists and the feminist movement, I disagree with the majority of it. It is not because I don't understand it, it is because it actually is possible to have a differing opinion without being an idiot. To insinuate that I don't get it is demeaning to my intelligence.

I want equal legal rights for everybody. In that sense of feminism, I am a feminist, but I think to go strictly by that definition is really a thing of the past.

I think rape culture is overhyped, if not a myth entirely. I think women make less money than men because they aren't as driven, not because of discrimination. I am not a feminist by today's terms in the slightest.

I find a large majority of feminism to be hypocritical (for example, in this thread someone posted a photo of a woman holding a sign talking about an isolated instance indicating why she didn't need feminism, and was critiqued for relying on a single instance, whereas this happens constantly with the "i need feminism" signs, and I have never once seen a feminist critiquing the same exact flaw there). I find feminists to be more concerned about women than men, particularly in the sense of discrimination. When a man has a societal issue, he is not taken as seriously as a woman, because his gender has had a systematic "privilege", throughout history (e.g., a man feeling a pressure from society to provide for his family is mentioned far far less frequently than a woman feeling pressure from society to be a meek housewife, yet the former is significantly more frequent). I find this to be a highly irrational, yet prevalent mindset within the feminist community. If feminists were truly interested in equality, then any issue of either gender would be equally problematic, and there would be no more discussion of one gender than the other. As it is, feminists claim to be truly interested in equality, but the current state of feminist culture does not reflect that.

I do not believe women face more problems than men. I believe they face different ones.