Why, yes, they are OURS

[RogueWarrior]

What follows is a rant. Pure and simple.

I pulled the following from the discussion on the horrific shootings in Connecticut and the ensuing debate on gun control. While I have my opinions on that, the following really rubbed me the wrong way.

As those of you who have been around a while and know my posting style, this is not usually something I delve into. I let most things slide by. Sorry if this offends, but the post offended me. Have given it some thought and I just can't let it go.

Let us mourn, grieve, and bury our dead...first.

You say "our" dead. They are no more your dead than they are mine (unless you know them). If someone who I do not know dies in my country, I still know them no more than someone in australia knows them. I mourn these children as much as I'd mourn children dying in England. Now if I personally knew these children... Yes I would be fully mourning, I quite possibly would not bei talking about guns, but I believe I would be glad that people were discussing how to end something like this happening again.

Yes, yes they are "our" dead. They are "our" children. Children of America. Who could have grown up to be corporate leaders, global leaders, doctors, teachers, scientists, musicians, artists, whatever.

I have seen a lot of offensive stuff posted on this forum. But that struck a nerve as insensitive, clueless, condescending, arrogant and pointless.

Being a parent and living in the United States, you're damn right those are "our" kids. Because they very well could have been MY kids.

I am truly sorry that you feel such a disconnect from community and nation that it is of no difference to you whether the kids lived across the street or across the globe if you did not personally know them. I guess that should be expected.

Rant over. Carry on.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, yes they are "our" dead. They are "our" children. Children of America. Who could have grown up to be corporate leaders, global leaders, doctors, teachers, scientists, musicians, artists, whatever.

Being a parent and living in the United States, you're damn right those are "our" kids. Because they very well could have been MY kids.

I agree with you 100%, Rogue, and think the same thing when I picture my 4-year old nephew wearing his little backpack, and my 4th grader walking out to the bus stop in the morning.

I'm pretty sure none of those parents ever imagined they'd outlive their elementary school-aged children. And that instead of celebrating Christmas and New Year with them, they have to make funeral arrangements.

I'm not sure why you didn't post this in that original thread though? It's a good post, and it certainly wouldn't have been threadjacking since it IS on topic.

 

[bob]

What follows is a rant. Pure and simple.

I pulled the following from the discussion on the horrific shootings in Connecticut and the ensuing debate on gun control. While I have my opinions on that, the following really rubbed me the wrong way.

As those of you who have been around a while and know my posting style, this is not usually something I delve into. I let most things slide by. Sorry if this offends, but the post offended me. Have given it some thought and I just can't let it go.

Let us mourn, grieve, and bury our dead...first.

You say "our" dead. They are no more your dead than they are mine (unless you know them). If someone who I do not know dies in my country, I still know them no more than someone in australia knows them. I mourn these children as much as I'd mourn children dying in England. Now if I personally knew these children... Yes I would be fully mourning, I quite possibly would not bei talking about guns, but I believe I would be glad that people were discussing how to end something like this happening again.

Yes, yes they are "our" dead. They are "our" children. Children of America. Who could have grown up to be corporate leaders, global leaders, doctors, teachers, scientists, musicians, artists, whatever.

I have seen a lot of offensive stuff posted on this forum. But that struck a nerve as insensitive, clueless, condescending, arrogant and pointless.

Being a parent and living in the United States, you're damn right those are "our" kids. Because they very well could have been MY kids.

I am truly sorry that you feel such a disconnect from community and nation that it is of no difference to you whether the kids lived across the street or across the globe if you did not personally know them. I guess that should be expected.

Rant over. Carry on.

For me, the truth of this is that those deaths belong to all of us, and there is a different set of "things" that separate each of us from them (geography, media coverage, personal agendas and circumstances, etc etc)....i can certainly understand where the tone of the exchange would put you off: but some people are bound to get defensive trying to make sense of something like this
your's is the first post about the shootings that i've read, and i'll likely tread lightly through boce's thread about it: the whole thing is too raw for me to sit down and turn it into an intellectual discussion....for that reason alone, i'm glad you started this thread

 

[Nordling]

Although the post referenced probably could have been worded better, I tend to agree with it.

I felt very bad about the shooting of children on the Norwegian island, though I knew none of them and I am American, not really a Norwegian. But if either of my nieces, or my sister or anyone I am really close to was to suddenly die by any means, especially in such a horrific way, I'd feel much worse. There ARE degrees of mourning, and that's how I took Isabella's statement. And it wasn't a statement that came out of thin air, it was in response to another poster attempting to tell people what they should or should not post.

That said, "call out threads" are a very bad idea, IMHO. Especially when your doing a knee-jerk response to something posted you may or may not really understand other than a surface glance at the words.

 

[Nordling]

Btw... here's something to be REALLY offended by:

https://twitter.com/AdamGabbatt/status/280006994516123649/photo/1

A bunch of stupid photographers enter St. Johns church in Sandy Hook. They were asked to leave.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Although the post referenced probably could have been worded better, I tend to agree with it.

I felt very bad about the shooting of children on the Norwegian island, though I knew none of them and I am American, not really a Norwegian. But if either of my nieces, or my sister or anyone I am really close to was to suddenly die by any means, especially in such a horrific way, I'd feel much worse. There ARE degrees of mourning, and that's how I took Isabella's statement. And it wasn't a statement that came out of thin air, it was in response to another poster attempting to tell people what they should or should not post.

That said, "call out threads" are a very bad idea, IMHO. Especially when your doing a knee-jerk response to something posted you may or may not really understand other than a surface glance at the words.

This.

If a child is horrifically murdered somewhere in the world I don't mourn anymore or less than I would if it happened in my own country. What I would do if it happened in my own country is worry. Because yes, it could happen to your own child or someone you know, maybe I'm wrong, but that isn't what I'd call mourning.

Someone's life shouldn't be any less important because it might personally effect you. Sure the fear is worse for you, but you didn't know these children any better than I know them. You are reading the same articles as I am. Tell me why because you share a nationality with these children somehow you are more upset by what happened...
Children died in a horrible way, I didn't know them, and from the sounds of it, neither did you. Their nationality does not matter anymore. Maybe you think I'm being insensitive, but really, I think you are. I don't even see how you can think something as inconsequential as race/birth even matters for something like this. It isn't them and us, to quote the lion king 2, what difference do you really see?

If you feel that way then I guess you're on par with the murderer too, which from your post, I also seriously doubt. But he was a US citizen just like you.

Out of all the things you could have got offended about in that thread, enough to bitch about it here, that was pretty minimal, and taken in the way you wanted to take it.

 

[RogueWarrior]

That said, "call out threads" are a very bad idea, IMHO.

Yes sir, you are correct. A lapse of judgement on my part.

I would like to hereby apologize to Isabella for my bad form. No ill will intended.

 

[Jupiter551]

Well, with all respect, before and above nationalities people are human beings, and tragedies are tragedies. Do you really think we feel any less saddened when a child is murdered in another country rather than our own? Kids are just kids, everywhere. They may play with different toys or speak a different language, but they're still just kids and kids are the same everywhere, and deserve the same rights and protections everywhere. I hate to sound cynical but the only way I can see that it makes any difference what nationality these kids are, is if their nation, its laws or society somehow contributed to their deaths. I know that's something a lot of people don't want to hear. It doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

[Nordling]

Agree, Jupe. But even if the culture, or nations laws or whatnot are different, I still feel horrid about children being abused or murdered. I felt bad for that Pakistani girl who was shot by Taliban thugs for the crime of wanting an education.

 

[Anonymous]

Ugh, I hope all this thinking doesn't make my headache from yesterday come back...LOL.

I didn't think Rogue was trying to say that American lives are MORE valuable than others.

I thought he was just saying that as a father who lives in America, it hit him hard to hear about this happening in his very own country...because it makes him think of his own child(ren).

That's what I got from his post.

Like when something horrible happens in our own state (let's say Ohio, for example), and we all say "How could something like this happen HERE?...That could've been in MY town, and that could've been MY kid/grandchild/niece..."

 

[Nordling]

Ugh, I hope all this thinking doesn't make my headache from yesterday come back...LOL.

I didn't think Rogue was trying to say that American lives are MORE valuable than others.

I thought he was just saying that as a father who lives in America, it hit him hard to hear about this happening in his very own country...because it makes him think of his own child(ren).

That's what I got from his post.

Yeah, and whether it's justified or not, we do tend to feel stronger emotions the nearer to us an event occurs. I once read an article on just that idea. It explained why we're hit harder by one person being shot in our town than many people being shot across the country. Human nature.

 

[Nordling]

Ugh, I hope all this thinking doesn't make my headache from yesterday come back...LOL.

I didn't think Rogue was trying to say that American lives are MORE valuable than others.

I thought he was just saying that as a father who lives in America, it hit him hard to hear about this happening in his very own country...because it makes him think of his own child(ren).

That's what I got from his post.

Like when something horrible happens in our own state (let's say Ohio, for example), and we all say "How could something like this happen HERE?...That could've been in MY town, and that could've been MY kid/grandchild/niece..."

Yes, this. The mall shooting in Oregon last week? That mall I could walk to in about 25 minutes. VERY near, and though no one started a thread on it here, I can attest that it hit me very hard... and/but I have to admit, when a few days later a whole classroom of babies were murdered, the nearness of the earlier event faded for me.

I think there's a lot of something like, but not quite "confusion" about all this... I think a lot of things said can be forgiven because of this. (no, I don't include YouTube comments--those are unforgivable.)

 

[Bocefish]

There's a huge difference between mourning and telling people in other countries what their laws need to be changed to.

 

[Nordling]

Some of us can multi-task.

I'd like to tell Iran that they need to change their misogynistic laws... the ones that allow men to stone women to death for wearing the wrong shit. Same with Saudi Arabia and Iraq... Wherever there is injustice...then anyone and anywhere... CAN and should speak out.

And as far as understanding? I'd say the cultures of Britain, Australia, New Zealand, e.g., are probably nearer to the culture of Connecticut than say, Mississippi's culture is close to Connecticut's.

Not to be divisive, but we live in a diversely cultured country.

 

[Nordling]

Oh, and btw, I would like to apologize to n0_0n3. I misinterpreted his intention and in reality, he was NOT telling anyone how to post. Sorry, No On 3.

BTW...what is 3?

 

[n0_0n3]

@nordling

its just a silly way to spell no one

 

[Nordling]

@nordling

its just a silly way to spell no one

Ha! And I was assuming (big mistake) that it was "no on 3" like 3 was some referendum. lol

 

[Mirra]

Yeah... the whole shooting at a school thing made me immediately think of my nephew and then my mother (a teacher). If it had been in the Southeast US (and especially in my state), my "OMFG" reaction would have probably turned into a "OMFGWTF I CAN'T THINK BECAUSE OF THE SHOCK." I cannot even guess how it would have affected me if it had happened at either of their schools. Proximity to you and loved ones makes a big difference in level of emotional attachment with tragedies.

 

[AllisonWilder]

Someone's life shouldn't be any less important because it might personally effect you. Sure the fear is worse for you, but you didn't know these children any better than I know them. You are reading the same articles as I am. Tell me why because you share a nationality with these children somehow you are more upset by what happened...

It can't/won't ever affect someone outside of the US the way it will affect those of us living here (especially those of us that are parents) because those things rarely happen outside of this country. It's unlikely that you will ever have to worry about sending your kid off to school one day only to learn that he's been shot and killed in his kindergarten class. These are not your realities as a non-US citizen, therefore the level of grief over their loss will be different.


*I am in no way saying that a non-US citizen does not care or feel for these innocent lives that have been stolen, just that it's on a significantly different level.

 

[Nordling]

I'm not sure what the value is of comparing "degrees of grief" due to geo-national location or whatever. Should I, to be "right," feel worse about a horror in Vancouver, BC than a horror in Tuscaloosa? After all, British Columbian culture is much more like west coast US culture than the deep south. But, but...that's not right... Canada isn't MY country.

I think it is right to feel horrible about the death or abuse of children anywhere... damn, they're still children...they haven't even developed a strong sense of their own nationality yet.

 

[FrenchKitty]

What follows is a rant. Pure and simple.

I pulled the following from the discussion on the horrific shootings in Connecticut and the ensuing debate on gun control. While I have my opinions on that, the following really rubbed me the wrong way.

As those of you who have been around a while and know my posting style, this is not usually something I delve into. I let most things slide by. Sorry if this offends, but the post offended me. Have given it some thought and I just can't let it go.

Let us mourn, grieve, and bury our dead...first.

You say "our" dead. They are no more your dead than they are mine (unless you know them). If someone who I do not know dies in my country, I still know them no more than someone in australia knows them. I mourn these children as much as I'd mourn children dying in England. Now if I personally knew these children... Yes I would be fully mourning, I quite possibly would not bei talking about guns, but I believe I would be glad that people were discussing how to end something like this happening again.

Yes, yes they are "our" dead. They are "our" children. Children of America. Who could have grown up to be corporate leaders, global leaders, doctors, teachers, scientists, musicians, artists, whatever.

I have seen a lot of offensive stuff posted on this forum. But that struck a nerve as insensitive, clueless, condescending, arrogant and pointless.

Being a parent and living in the United States, you're damn right those are "our" kids. Because they very well could have been MY kids.

I am truly sorry that you feel such a disconnect from community and nation that it is of no difference to you whether the kids lived across the street or across the globe if you did not personally know them. I guess that should be expected.

Rant over. Carry on.

I don't agree with this, but that's probably simply because I put myself in the parent's shoes. If the whole nation started mourning the death of MY child whom I knew and loved, and saying things like "our kids" I'd feel like it was insensitive, and arrogant. I probably wouldn't think that far in the state i'd be, I'm sure it would just translate to me screaming "shut the fuck up you never knew him he was MY CHILD!!!!! stop pretending you care!!!!!!!!!"
Now I know you DO care. We all do. But not as much as the parents, and not enough to steal their grief.

 

[Zoomer]

You see... it's that attitude which allows a country to think "fuck them" about any other nation - as all that matters is "ours". A clear delineation as to where the caring starts and stops. If they're from another country, given the overall perception of the US in various zones around the world, they may as well be another fucking species.

The perception the world gets is that the US simply does not give a flying fuck about anyone - yet struggle to understand why anyone else the world over would be compassionate about what happens to "your" own people.

I feel bad seeing what happens in Libya, what happens in Iraq, in Afghanistan... whereas the perception give by most Americans is.. "Who? Fuck them!". The numbers of children killed go way beyond anything the US can comprehend. There is no comparison. Are the US citizens even aware of it?

Many of us read about what has happened in that school and think "holy shit, this is awful... and crazy". Their humans, first and foremost, the same species. If I hear a child crying, I will look around for the source of it - as crying is a sign of distress. I don't need to be American to care about children, about fellow human beings, about others.

Though true, I wouldn't call them my own or refer to them as "ours". They've got parents, they are "theirs". After that, they've relatives - they are "theirs". After that, they're members of their local community - they are "theirs" too. But beyond that, they're humans... we should all care equally.

Do I mourn? I would not go that far unless I was there and witnessed or was part of the local community. But if it happened in a town 20 miles from me? I'd be shocked and horrified, but mourn? I would feel compassion for sure.

But to slap people's compassion back in their face with a basic "GTFO" is pretty abhorrent.

 

[Zoomer]

Someone's life shouldn't be any less important because it might personally effect you. Sure the fear is worse for you, but you didn't know these children any better than I know them. You are reading the same articles as I am. Tell me why because you share a nationality with these children somehow you are more upset by what happened...

It can't/won't ever affect someone outside of the US the way it will affect those of us living here (especially those of us that are parents) because those things rarely happen outside of this country. It's unlikely that you will ever have to worry about sending your kid off to school one day only to learn that he's been shot and killed in his kindergarten class. These are not your realities as a non-US citizen, therefore the level of grief over their loss will be different.

and this shows a startling, horrific, ignorant lack of knowledge of world events. Did you ever hear about Beslan? Over 380 dead, with over 180 of those children- Russia 2004. Probably the biggest I can think of offhand and more than the last x years of US school killings combined?

Hear about the Malala Yousafzai who was shot in the head by the Taliban for arguing the right to go to fucking school?

I could go on for pages... literally, pages if I had the time, the memory, and the willpower to Google. There are parts of the world where girls never get to have education - not because they don't want it - but because if they do, they're directly threatened with being fucking killed if they do so! How's that for "worrying".

p.s. 1 British schoolboy was included in the dead of Newtown. Guess only the British can mourn him? I know, utterly uncalled for... but hoping it strikes a slight nerve to put reality onto what has been said about "yours" and "ours" so far.

 

[FrenchKitty]

http://lci.tf1.fr/france/faits-divers/f ... 77145.html

Yes it happens. Most of the things that happen in other countries only affect the country it happened in, since the info isn't relayed to the US, but what happens in the US is relayed everywhere so we all know about it.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I will also point out that there is also a chance I will move to New York one day for work, if I married there, I might settle down in that area, so yes it could effect my future children, but I don't really think that's relevant. Like has been previously said, America's a massive country, everywhere's different, a lot of british people migrate over to the New York area, I have plenty of friends living there right now, that isn't a factor into how I feel about this.

What FrenchKitty was saying was one of the reasons I posted my original post, because I would feel that way, essentially the children are the parents and the people who knew them/were connected to them. To everyone else, race, nation, anyone who didn't know these children, they are strangers to you. If they hadn't died, essentially you wouldn't have given two sods about them. You can worry about your children in future, if you have children maybe that will upset you more too, but you never know what someone else is feeling.
This shouldn't be a pissing match about who is more upset than anyone else. Everyone reacts differently. Essentially the people who are really grieving are the families, and none of us can understand that.

And Boce, if you feel that way then I'm guessing you were very opposed to the Iraq war and various other wars where America walked in to try and "fix" everything. There is NOT an issue with taking an interest in what goes on outside your bubble, marching an army in to force people to change.... maybe... but a discussion on acf? Sometimes it's good to discuss things in a safe atmosphere. For all the fuss you're making I might as well have told you I'm about to chop your willy off. It's just a gun. And it's just a discussion. If they changed the laws, you could still have a gun, you would just need to apply for one and go through the steps. Having to go through a different system and making sure/proving you have a safe place for said gun is a pretty small inconvenience to help stop said criminals or people who store them incorrectly/don't have the correct mentality getting access to guns.

 

[bob]

There's a huge difference between mourning and telling people in other countries what their laws need to be changed to.

i disagree, especially considering the format.....i'm sure there is someone somewhere who has an article about "the proper mourning etiquette for forums" but i tend to believe that in a world where personal freedom is actually allowed, something like this should encourage our ability to mourn, each according to our circumstances.

my connection to the tragedy runs deeper than the bond of my humanity....i'm connected to it socially as well, even tho i live on the other side of it geographically......nordling asked about the roots of our violence....that's the place where my mourning takes my mind, too.....but if i lived on the other side of the pond, i could well be more concerned about the laws that allow this sort of thing to happen with such seeming ease....and regularity.

many americans will wonder the same thing....seems like a reasonable response to a situation that brings out our sadness, confusion, and doubt.

:twocents-02cents:

 

[sweetiebatman]

People getting shot needlessly makes me angry, more so when innocent children are involved whether they are from London, Islamabad, Connecticut or Timbuktoo

 

[Mirra]

There's no doubt that tragedies like the shooting are terrible no matter where they happen. I doubt any sane person feels apathetic about tragedies like these attacks on schools... but there's a reason you hear people say that something "hit close to home." It's natural instinct for a reaction to be stronger when there are more connections to you and your family. It's like a global earthquake. We all feel it and it terrifies us all but those at the epicenter get the full effect of it.

 

[Jupiter551]

I doubt any sane person feels apathetic about tragedies like these attacks on schools... but there's a reason you hear people say that something "hit close to home." It's natural instinct for a reaction to be stronger when there are more connections to you and your family.

Which would imply it's a self-preservation instinct, being concerned that danger is close, as opposed to a compassionate response in feeling empathy despite no personal danger?

 

[Mirra]

I do not believe those two feelings are mutually exclusive. There is no opposition. Each feeling is in addition to others.