Why, yes, they are OURS

[JickyJuly]

I think it makes total sense to say "our" people when referring to fellow Americans. It's not to imply that other countries are not similarly horrified and made sad by this as well. It just means that they are from our country, and we automatically have that connection and common ground with them past just all being humans. If you tell me about some horrible happening in Iran, obviously I can sympathize or empathize but it will be a bit more difficult to really picture and understand. If it's someone from my country, state or hometown, it's easier to feel connected. Saying "our people" is just a way of connecting. In times of grief that sort of solidarity is comforting.

 

[FrenchKitty]

I think it makes total sense to say "our" people when referring to fellow Americans. It's not to imply that other countries are not similarly horrified and made sad by this as well. It just means that they are from our country, and we automatically have that connection and common ground with them past just all being humans. If you tell me about some horrible happening in Iran, obviously I can sympathize or empathize but it will be a bit more difficult to really picture and understand. If it's someone from my country, state or hometown, it's easier to feel connected. Saying "our people" is just a way of connecting. In times of grief that sort of solidarity is comforting.

I don't even understand the mechanism behind this line of thought................
How does it work ? How is your ability to empathize limited by imaginary lines on a world map?
ETA: I know you said "obviously I can sympathize or empathize " but when you say " but it will be a bit more difficult to really picture and understand." It just puts this "empathy" you think you're feeling in perspective doesn't it? Not only does it negate it but it makes me wonder whether you know what "empathy" means as a word . It's not a word designed to be "just said" to prove you have normal feelings, it has a real meaning....which includes "picturing and understanding", plus other things such as "feeling the pain" of another human being.

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

Proximity does tend to make an event seem more real and immediate. When the twin towers were destroyed, I could see the smoke across the river where there used to be buildings. That affected me deeply. It doesn't mean I'm special or had more of a right to be outraged by the events than someone further away -- it's just that things tend to resonate in one's mind a bit more when they can be related to things one sees all the time. At least that's how it works for me. I remember other tragedies happening, where I certainly recognized they were very sad things, but they just didn't force my mind to keep coming back to them the way that one did.

I could be wrong, but I'm going to suggest that nobody here really means to say that people from other parts of the world can't care properly about the killings at that school or that their feelings aren't significant. I think Jicky has it right when she says that talking about the victims being "our people" is mostly a way of providing comfort -- it's sort of saying we're an extended family that cares. It's a good thing that people in other parts of the world care too, and there's no reason they can't be part of an even more extended family of that sort. It's just human nature to huddle together in whatever groups exist in a time of crisis. There's no need to have a pissing contest over who's allowed to grieve more.

 

[JoleneBrody]

I feel like there is a lot of communication barrier issues going on in this thread.

To claim Americans don't care about/are aware of anything outside of the U.S is ridiculous and ignorant. Just as ignorant as what you are claiming we do. I listen to the largest national news radio program every day and majority of the program is focused on world events and updates. This program is on NPR, national public radio, meaning that it's funded by pledges of support from listeners. The American people care enough to keep a program that covers world issues in a non biased manner on the air, year after year after year. Of course there are selfish people with blinders on! The human race as a whole is a selfish and evil species, it has nothing to do with location. No matter where you live there will always be selfish and evil people, that's the reason why any country has any tragedy.
Since the beginning of humanity we have been a species of community. Any tragedy world wide will always hit the locals harder than it does people from outside of the community and those locals have no reason to feel guilty for that.

I've been to the Clackamas town center mall at least a dozen times. I felt that shooting much more than I would another because I've been there, feeling safe and sound. I can imagine the way those people felt because I can still remember how that place smells. My heart bleeds for any life taken anywhere, but that shooting made me physically ill and if that makes me a bad person then so be it.

 

[LadyLuna]

Well, partly it has to do with culture. Yes, America has many cultures within American, but there are bits of American culture that all Americans share, but don't share with Canadians or the English. That culture affects how we experience loss, and how we view the tragedy itself. And those who live in the middle east have SUCH a different culture that we really can't understand how they experience their loss, how they view the tragedy.

Example: Americans hear about a suicide bomber, and we feel horrible for the family of the bomber as well as the victims. The Taliban, however, would not feel horrible for the family of the bomber, as in their culture the bomber's family has gained honor by the bomber's actions.

So it's not just about how close they are, it's also about shared culture. When we share a culture with the person who died, we actually understand how the family feels about the death, and understand how the death itself is viewed. When we don't share the culture, it's harder to understand how they feel about the death. The death is horrible, because any death is, but we can't really empathize with them, any more than someone who has never tried to find their way through the world without sight can empathize with someone who has recently lost their vision.

 

[JickyJuly]

I think it makes total sense to say "our" people when referring to fellow Americans. It's not to imply that other countries are not similarly horrified and made sad by this as well. It just means that they are from our country, and we automatically have that connection and common ground with them past just all being humans. If you tell me about some horrible happening in Iran, obviously I can sympathize or empathize but it will be a bit more difficult to really picture and understand. If it's someone from my country, state or hometown, it's easier to feel connected. Saying "our people" is just a way of connecting. In times of grief that sort of solidarity is comforting.

I don't even understand the mechanism behind this line of thought................
How does it work ? How is your ability to empathize limited by imaginary lines on a world map?
ETA: I know you said "obviously I can sympathize or empathize " but when you say " but it will be a bit more difficult to really picture and understand." It just puts this "empathy" you think you're feeling in perspective doesn't it? Not only does it negate it but it makes me wonder whether you know what "empathy" means as a word . It's not a word designed to be "just said" to prove you have normal feelings, it has a real meaning....which includes "picturing and understanding", plus other things such as "feeling the pain" of another human being.

Anyone who has felt loss (and most everyone has) can empathize with others who are currently dealing with the death of a loved one. So, yes. I can empathize with someone despite not being able to relate to them entirely. It's easier, however, to put space between myself and another person if we have no common ground to speak of. Meh. I'm not super into being politically correct or having my "mechanisms" understood. Think what you like, lady.

 

[Jupiter551]

I doubt anyone is arguing that something happening in a place you go/have been makes it more in-your-face real, but the original gist of the topic I got was that 'they're our kids not yours so keep your opinions to yourself'. Which itself isn't much different than the Taliban saying they're our women not yours so stfu.

 

[Meoff_69]

I can say from my own personal experience, that these children are "my kids" too.

**Sorry guys. This one's loooong**

In 1995 I was a firefighter, and went to Oklahoma City, the day after the Federal building was bombed. Myself and 5 others from my department, drove 6 hours from Kansas City. We did this because we wanted to help. We considered the people in Oklahoma to be our neighbors. And we also did it because of the hippocratic oath that each one of us had taken.

When I got to Oklahoma City, I was quickly given a rude awakening. I was not prepared for what I would see. Long story short, most of the victims had already been found and the main focus was on finding possible survivors in the rubble. My team and I were given the task of digging through the rubble of what remained of the 2nd floor of that building. That was the daycare center where 14 children lost their lives. After 8 hours of searching and listening for any sign of life, I saw a piece of what looked like a dress, that caught my eye. It ended up being a doll. It had the initials "D.R." written on it. I froze. I couldn't speak. I remember feeling violently ill and wanting to vomit, because right then and there, I knew that doll belonged to some child that was on that floor. I wanted desperately to find out who "D.R." was, and if they were still alive. But I still had a job to do. I ended up keeping that doll because I'd thrown it in my equipment bag.

When I got home, I still didn't know who the doll belonged too. After that, I recall becoming very angry and borderline violent to anyone that I'd suspected of being violent towards a child. I had even physically threatened a the father of a child during a medical call that I was involved in. It was later determined that the child's injuries were due to abuse from the father. I wanted to kill him! I was later diagnosed with PTSD, because of what I'd seen and went through in Oklahoma City. The root cause was because of what happened to those children. These were what I call the "bad times" during my life. And all the while, this doll remained in my locker at the fire station, as a reminder.

After therapy, I had started to find my own peace, but still wanted to find the owner of that doll. Fast forward a year and I heard about the school shooting in Dunblane, Scotland. 16 children lost their lives during that. The "bad feelings" came back. Only this time they were very bad. I felt so bad for those kids. And I couldn't do a damned thing to help them or their families, being an entire ocean away.

My saving grace came in the fall of 1996. I happened upon a list of the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing. There, in black and white, was Dominique Ravae, age 2. I ended up sending her doll to her mother. I felt odd doing it, but wanted closure for myself. I received a letter from Dominique's mother a short time afterward. Basically she thanked me for thinking about Dominique and her family. She ended the letter with "be at peace, Jack. Our little girl is in a better place. Because you cared about our family, you are now a part of our family."

So in closing...yes, those kids at Sandy Hook are MY kids, too. RogueWarrior's kids are MY kids, too! The kids from Dunblane, Scotland were MY kids, too! The kids at Columbine were MY kids, too! If anyone in this messed up world considers themselves a decent human being, then yes...these are YOUR kids, too! Regardless of age or national borders!

Sorry for the rant as well. I had to get this off my chest. Thanks for listening guys!

 

[RogueWarrior]

but the original gist of the topic I got was that 'they're our kids not yours so keep your opinions to yourself'.

If this is what your perception is, then I did a poor job.

My point was that even though we don't have a personal connection with a certain individual, does not mean we do not have a connection.

Let me put it this way: God forbid, someone who is a regular poster in this forum is brutally murdered. (While given the anonymity here that might be difficult to know, but just go with the premise.) That would be one of "ours". Say it's a model who only posts in the inner sanctum. You or I don't have any interactions with her or even know who she is. She is still one of "ours".

And to last part of the quoted post: Please, please, please do not keep your opinions to yourself. If everyone did that, no discussions would ever ensue.

 

[Jupiter551]

but the original gist of the topic I got was that 'they're our kids not yours so keep your opinions to yourself'.

If this is what your perception is, then I did a poor job.

My point was that even though we don't have a personal connection with a certain individual, does not mean we do not have a connection.

Let me put it this way: God forbid, someone who is a regular poster in this forum is brutally murdered. (While given the anonymity here that might be difficult to know, but just go with the premise.) That would be one of "ours". Say it's a model who only posts in the inner sanctum. You or I don't have any interactions with her or even know who she is. She is still one of "ours".

And to last part of the quoted post: Please, please, please do not keep your opinions to yourself. If everyone did that, no discussions would ever ensue.

Yeah, you're right, I actually came back to retract what I said, it was a dumb and inaccurate reading so I apologise.

 

[Nordling]

Yes, I think the controversy here is over one word: "our." I think Rogue meant it idiomatically, that is, not in an ownership sense but in the sense of connection; that all humans are connected; we're all one tribe when it comes to children.

This connection is how a small woman was able to lift a car up like a human jack in order to free a child. And how, all over the world, a mothers will sometimes starve to death so that their children may have a single bite of rice.

American, Canadian, Belgian, French, British, Cambodian all of US... we all cry at the terror of children in danger.

 

[FrenchKitty]

I think it makes total sense to say "our" people when referring to fellow Americans. It's not to imply that other countries are not similarly horrified and made sad by this as well. It just means that they are from our country, and we automatically have that connection and common ground with them past just all being humans. If you tell me about some horrible happening in Iran, obviously I can sympathize or empathize but it will be a bit more difficult to really picture and understand. If it's someone from my country, state or hometown, it's easier to feel connected. Saying "our people" is just a way of connecting. In times of grief that sort of solidarity is comforting.

I don't even understand the mechanism behind this line of thought................
How does it work ? How is your ability to empathize limited by imaginary lines on a world map?
ETA: I know you said "obviously I can sympathize or empathize " but when you say " but it will be a bit more difficult to really picture and understand." It just puts this "empathy" you think you're feeling in perspective doesn't it? Not only does it negate it but it makes me wonder whether you know what "empathy" means as a word . It's not a word designed to be "just said" to prove you have normal feelings, it has a real meaning....which includes "picturing and understanding", plus other things such as "feeling the pain" of another human being.

Anyone who has felt loss (and most everyone has) can empathize with others who are currently dealing with the death of a loved one. So, yes. I can empathize with someone despite not being able to relate to them entirely. It's easier, however, to put space between myself and another person if we have no common ground to speak of. Meh. I'm not super into being politically correct or having my "mechanisms" understood. Think what you like, lady.

:lol: sorry, I need to remind myself that asking someone about their lack of empathy is never productive ^^ Although I have to point out that it has nothing to do with political correctness, it's probably more about vocabulary. And thank you for allowing this "lady" to think what she wants

 

[Zoomer]

To claim Americans don't care about/are aware of anything outside of the U.S is ridiculous and ignorant. Just as ignorant as what you are claiming we do.

If that was aimed at me, then no - it is not what I was saying directly, although I did ask if Americans on average are aware of what happens elsewhere. The reason for that is simple. Such outrage over a school shooting - its all over our news papers and news channel (and I must admit, we're enjoying hearing the ongoing argument/debate about gun controls!).

So a school shooting causes mass outrage and media coverage...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... claim.html

So, what happened after this incident? 23 children dead. Maybe the UK press did not report the US citizens outrage - the impression we had was "nothing". When I said it could go on for pages, I sometimes do wonder if people would be surprised how many incidents like this have occurred Yet those were generally (the perception was) met with utter silence.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Thing is with America though, is it's so big, and each state is so different, that yes although you all share the American pride, really if you live in California it's similar to me someone in greece dying. I have greek friends, I have been to greece many times, it's part of Europe, as is England, although Europe isn't considered one country, it's not that different to having many different states. But I wouldn't claim I know anything about deaths in greece just because geographically it is close to me. I would be sad/empathise, but I would never say "our children". I wouldn't even say that about people in the Uk.
I get peoples points that if something happens locally, or even if it's somewhere you've been, but well, I don't know how close geographically the people making these points are to the killing, if you really are close, then understandable that you'd be more horrified by it, but if you live thousands of miles away and just happen to be in the same country, I don't think these children are anymore yours than they are mine. If they hadn't died, chances are none of you would have given them the time of day. Maybe you genuinely put it into practise that you treat any and every alive American citizen as your child, sibling or parent then you can legitimise calling them yours, I just don't see why if you don't practise it while they're alive, why it's ok to go around saying it once they're dead, little too late really.

Meoff thank you for telling your story, truly lovely of you to care that much and go the extra mile, if that were my little girl and someone did what you did it would be amazing. I hope you've got through your PTSD , I've had it before (though for something completely different), it is a harsh thing to get through. Your thinking on the "our" subject is kind of how I feel, that it makes no difference where they are from, feeling connected/emphasising with death goes beyond geographical borders.

 

[JoleneBrody]

To claim Americans don't care about/are aware of anything outside of the U.S is ridiculous and ignorant. Just as ignorant as what you are claiming we do.

If that was aimed at me, then no - it is not what I was saying directly, although I did ask if Americans on average are aware of what happens elsewhere. The reason for that is simple. Such outrage over a school shooting - its all over our news papers and news channel (and I must admit, we're enjoying hearing the ongoing argument/debate about gun controls!).

So a school shooting causes mass outrage and media coverage...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... claim.html

So, what happened after this incident? 23 children dead. Maybe the UK press did not report the US citizens outrage - the impression we had was "nothing". When I said it could go on for pages, I sometimes do wonder if people would be surprised how many incidents like this have occurred Yet those were generally (the perception was) met with utter silence.

Well from the other side, though I hear extensive coverage on things that happen in the UK I have no perception about how the average UK civilian feels about it, why would I or any other country? I'm pretty sure that can go for anywhere in the world when it comes to general knowledge of world events. I listen to the BBC news daily as well and for the most part, it's no different than ours. However from an outside perspective I find the reporting to be more cold and void of emotion. I'm sure that's just my misunderstanding of UK culture. It's not best to judge a nation of people based solely on outside perception. The one thing that caused this debate was an abundance of emotion and heartbreak over the death of children we have never met. I'm not sure how that kind of compassion can possibly be a bad thing or how comparing any tragedy to any other tragedy when lives are lost could be anything but cold. This isn't a death toll pissing match.

Considering the story you referenced was over 4 years ago I really can't recall much more than the story itself and knowledge of it's happening. I'm not sure how the nation overall reacted, I only know how I did in this particular instant. However talk of lost civilian lives at our hands and putting a stop to drone strikes and things of that nature are a daily topic within our country. If an american citizen in unaware how many innocent lives have been taken by our military then they aren't even trying to pay attention!

No disrespect intended but your post just came off as very hostile towards Americans while also being very ill informed about the American people themselves. I wont deny I have no true understanding of UK daily life since I've never spent any real time there but I'm not going to start judging them for what MY media source doesn't tell me about them.

Hope I made some sort of sense, I'm super sick and head spinny right now. :/