Why is there a stigma attached to camming?

[AwesomeKate]

I think defining what webcamming IS may not be a very useful expenditure of our time. There is already a word for what we do: Webcamming. It is a new form of sex work that came about in the early 2000s when the technology allowed it to. Equating it with other forms of sex work like Prostitution or Porn seem to be in the spirit of making moral judgments about it and wanting to dissuade cammers. People want to call us Whores because they are trying to attach the same old stigma, but the most basic understanding of webcam work usually leaves onlookers a bit confused. No one touches your body for money? You have no risk of pregnancy or disease from clients? You're not in the same room as any viewers? In practice, camming defies all preconceived understanding of what Sex Work involves and eliminates most of the quite reasonable flack that our Hoe Ancestor's received from the public. Cammodels get all the rewards and more of prostitution but without almost any of the risks to their bodily health. The age of internet pixels has allowed you to offer up a digital representation of yourself. You can send your avatar galavanting about the net flashing titties to Bob, Frank, and thousands of other men simultaneously. Maybe some of them will like them enough to want to forge some kind of give and take relationship online. But never in this exchange does your pussy ever become susceptible to being filled with Bob or Frank's cum. This is the unbelievable modern miracle that two people can have the benefits of convincingly realistic sex and intimacy with no tangible risk.

As much as I preach the safety of camming, I do wonder how this all will effect human reproductive habits, especially with VR technology closing in on us. I think that only those men who are extremely disgusted by porn or those men who gather real women with ease may be included in the gene pool of the future. A feedback loop of only very attractive or capable dudes procreating may ensue. That doesn't actually sound so bad for the human race when I think about it.

 

[Guy]

I do not use the word "porn" to describe camming.
I am not looking to write an essay on it.
If the clarifications I have provided are not sufficient I can tell you that you're right if it will make you feel better?

I understand that you don't. I'm curious why you don't.

I want to understand your point of view, compare and contrast it with my own, and see if I can learn anything. People generally hold the opinions they think are worth holding. If your opinion is worth you holding, it might be worth me holding it, so I would like to understand it, because I cannot hold an opinion as a sheer act of will, but only through comprehending a reasoning that warrants it as a conclusion. I honestly don't care what you believe, and I don't care about your life or changing your mind about anything. I just want to understand if there is any value in what you claim (I say claim because it's an opinion on an objective reality -- 'my opinion that the world is flat' is a claim about the real world around us, relevant to everyone ... it matters whether or not the claim is correct, unlike a claim like 'Nickelback is enjoyable').

wow, 4am already?


would it require an essay?

I can explain in very few words why it's my opinion puppies are not tigers.
What makes your worldview of porn so difficult to articulate in a sentence, or a paragraph at most?



::sigh::

I gotta agree with @uncoveredmanhole here. Might wanna differentiate between amateur vs mainstream instead.

Yes, camming is pornography by legal definition. I think the reason why many camodels avoid referring to what they do as "porn" is because that word has become synonymous
with professional hardcore pornography. When ever I hear the word "porn" used on TV, radio, or at work, they are always referring to that genre.

 

[SMuser69]

Yes, camming is pornography by legal definition. I think the reason why many camodels avoid referring to what they do as "porn" is because that word has become synonymous
with professional hardcore pornography. When ever I hear the word "porn" used on TV, radio, or at work, they are always referring to that genre.

Actually "camming" is a slang term not a dictionary word yet. It's a slang with multiple meanings, from recording movies in theaters illegally, or putting a camera on the body to using a cameras on a website. Twitch has people "camming" but isn't a porn site at all.

The strict legal definition of pornography is any picture or recording of an penetration act between two individuals. In reality using a toy or dildo doesn't meet the legal definition of pornography in many places and is just considered a "lewd act". This is one reason MFC probably chooses not to have men and couples because it allows them to more adhere to offering "modeling" rather than meeting the legal definition of a "porn site" in many places.

tl;dr a "slang" word isn't really a word so can't be part of a "legal" definition.

 

[AudriTwo]

Does Streamate have a DMCA service for their models?

They can submit DMCAs on your behalf of you ask. But they don't normally follow through if the person doesn't remove the content.

 

[Ann_Sulu]

Yes, camming is pornography by legal definition. I think the reason why many camodels avoid referring to what they do as "porn" is because that word has become synonymous
with professional hardcore pornography. When ever I hear the word "porn" used on TV, radio, or at work, they are always referring to that genre.

Yes, but I think it's more than hardcore though honestly. Technically if you're saying hardcore, doesn't that really describe most couple cams too? I think there are several issues with porn though. Though mainstream porn producers tend to have their people tested, there are still people who assume every porn star likely has all the STD's ever from how many people they've had sex with. Porn also implies to many that the person might be DTF anyone and everyone though they probably aren't. There are many dangers involved with having others owning rights to your content (and have your identity on file as well as have others you work with know your identity). I feel that's all (along with other reasons) why cammers may not feel as thrilled about using the term.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Equating it with other forms of sex work like Prostitution or Porn seem to be in the spirit of making moral judgments about it and wanting to dissuade cammers. People want to call us Whores because they are trying to attach the same old stigma.

just want to weigh in for my part to say that's contrary to my hope and perspective.
I cam, too, and I live in a country where prostitution has been legal for my whole adult life, so maybe I don't see these things as negatives. (reminds me of when vegans compare the billion chickens that die every year to the WWII holocaust --the intention is to express the importance of the former massacre, not diminish the latter, but audiences who think nothing of a chicken often take it as belittling of the holocaust victims, since they're applying their own judgments to the analogy instead of applying the judgments/reasoning/feeling of the person who made the analogy (an unfortunate accidental postmodernism...).)

I call myself a camwhore a. for giggles. b. because it's more accurate than camgirl (which is also good for giggles, though).

I understand that other people prefer 'cam model', but personal preference isn't a big thing to me (I don't really do drama ... if you have issues with someone saying 'fuck' or 'retard' or 'whore', talk to your therapist, don't cry to me), I say 'cam model' only because, as mentioned earlier, it's an umbrella term - if you don't know what other cammers are doing on cam, it's probably best to use 'cam model' instead of assuming they strip or whore.

but even if I knew someone whored like I do, I wouldn't use the term, because I understand that it would be like saying 'faggot' or 'tranny' or 'nigga' or 'cunt' ... perfectly fine words many groups of friends use (in that innocent 'suppppp bitch!'/'muh nigga!' way) -- if you say it to/about people you don't know, you have to be prepared for them to be someone who might take it as offensive. If you say it about yourself, no one really gets away with saying 'how dare you call yourself that! that offends me!'

As much as I preach the safety of camming, I do wonder how this all will effect human reproductive habits, especially with VR technology closing in on us. I think that only those men who are extremely disgusted by porn or those men who gather real women with ease may be included in the gene pool of the future. A feedback loop of only very attractive or capable dudes procreating may ensue. That doesn't actually sound so bad for the human race when I think about it.

so OT, but anything that can curb breeding would be a godsend

supposedly as society becomes more affluent, the trend is toward fewer children, and even just enjoying your life and its opportunities instead of having children, since we don't have that third-world need for little laborers to help the family survive, nor the need for a familial obligation to ensure our elder years are comfortable, nor do we need little half clones to help ease our boredom since we're not in a dusty village without power trying to survive, but immersed in a world of delights from designer puppies to fulfilling artistic careers, from netflix documentaries about the world to travelling the world itself. So the hypothesis is that, hilariously in contrast to this freedom and win/win for society and our ecosystem, the gene pool will select for a population of people who actually want kids, because people who don't want kids can prevent having them, and people who don't want kids don't have to have them as a survival necessity, so the only people who would have kids would be the people who need to have kids because they feel some need for a smaller little ignorant version of themselves utterly dependent upon them with them at all times ... some deeply ingrained interest in child-rearing, like our deeply ingrained fondness for cute fluffy animals. Which, if we're taking that 'some people are unattractive and incapable' point up, the population on the whole would be more miserable, not less, since a higher percentage would want to couple and breed, but there's no reason to expect an increase in the percentage of people whose character or physical traits make them desirable breeding partners (other than the one desirable trait in a breeding partner of them wanting to be a breeder). So instead of today's situation of a lot of lonely people who aren't appealing physically or emotionally, we'll have a lot of lonely people who also long for not just intimacy and sex but a family. ...but, of course, loneliness leads to standards dropping and, just like today, less attractive people will breed with less attractive people, ensuring this eugenic world of self-selecting gorgeous people never happens

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Yes, camming is pornography by legal definition. I think the reason why many camodels avoid referring to what they do as "porn" is because that word has become synonymous
with professional hardcore pornography. When ever I hear the word "porn" used on TV, radio, or at work, they are always referring to that genre.

yea. but personally I think that's a poor reason to avoid the word, and it's also inconsistent with another linguistic trend with cammers: it's been discussed previously on the forum, 'sex work' invariably refers to standard IRL prostitution when used in the news media, and yet camgirls readily admit they're in the sex work industry / call themselves 'sex workers'.

the sex work I do involves the production of pornography -- it might be screencapped or live recorded, or just be pornography that disappears after it is recorded and broadcast, but however long it exists, the thing that existed was pornography (if you disagree, again, replace yourself with a 12 year old and you know full well what any judge or jury in america would say as to whether or not that show was porn).

I'm not sure where stripping fits, though. it feels right to say it's "pornographic", but is it? it's (a.) a performance/depiction and (b.) sexual.
a music video might be 'pornographic' in some puritanical view (a debate hinging on how explicit a media must be before it's porn -- is a TV/blockbuster sex scene a pornographic 'scene' in a non-pornographic 'movie' and the movie therefore not "a porn" but the footage undoubtedly porn? is 'beautiful agony' porn? the sexuality is all facial and audible (an aural depiction of sexual activity), the rest of the sexuality is merely implied not depicted). and I wonder if that might be more accurate than to claim stripping is pornographic. -- Is something 'porn' if it's not captured/recorded but only performed live to a live audience? My instinct is to say that strippers are not pornstars, stripclubs are not porn studios, stripping is not pornography. But the only distinction between stripping in a club and stripping on cam is that (c.) you're capturing and replaying a video recording of it. ... instinctually it feels like that's a necessary criterion, because otherwise sex with the lights on is porn -- a one-man show before an audience of one . 'media'* seems to be vital -- there has to be a medium. stripping has no relay, it's direct. cam stripping creates media, and that media fits the definition of porn

*the dictionary suggests even written sexuality can be considered pornography.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

As much as I preach the safety of camming, I do wonder how this all will effect human reproductive habits, especially with VR technology closing in on us. I think that only those men who are extremely disgusted by porn or those men who gather real women with ease may be included in the gene pool of the future. A feedback loop of only very attractive or capable dudes procreating may ensue. That doesn't actually sound so bad for the human race when I think about it.

A neat little mental side road, but I don't see that happening.

It may give people who had no real interest/ability to find a mate an outlet, but that is about as far as I can see it going.

 

[zoober]

Since we are talking about sexual shame...
I don't know how to make peace with two seemingly connected realities:

1. Sexual shame exists and is bad.
2. Sex workers financially benefit from sexual shame.

Brilliant post; totally agree with the notion that sex work earns such a good profit margin because of the stigma. Hence the I can earn in 2 sessions what they earn in 5 days comments models make.

Perhaps one minor addition is the notion of stigma and the associated moral judgements can add a lil jazz to it all. Given so much of our sexuality is psychological, whether you agree or disagree, they're an unavoidable part of the experience

 

[EspiKvlt]

I watched a very interesting documentary recently about amateur porn and the pornstars are at complete mercy of the directors.

It wasn't Hot Girls Wanted, was it?

 

[Sneeqie]

I recently told my friend about what I do and she did not seem to think much of it at all, in fact, she seemed a little grossed out by it.

Apart from people who are completely religious I cannot see why camming is looked on as bad or weird. I'm in college but have never been one for regular 9 -5 jobs, the idea of sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day taking orders from someone grosses me out way more than anything that could possibly ever be done on cam.

My friend will probably work 8 hours to make what I'd make in 2 on a bad day.

How am I the one making a weird choice? I'm not exaggerating when I say I can't see a single reason why someone would think camming is a bad idea.

You get to pick your own hours, you don't have to work when you don't feel like it, you literally get paid to be complimented every 2 minutes (don't try and say you don't like some of the compliments ) , you get paid extremely well, you can travel and still make money from anywhere in the world, getting paid to jerk off?

For where I am in my life right now it's a dream job and a godsend and I actually feel sorry for my friends who have regular hourly jobs, where they sit there spending most of their week, hating what they're doing. We only get one life so why would you want to spend 40 hours of it in a crappy job you hate!

So please tell me, why the stigma?

Life is to short to do anything but be happy and make your way through life whatever way possible (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else)

Fuck what people think. Have a good Friday everyone!

 

[Val Vega]

professional pornstars have very detailed contracts they agree to and sign before filming. the star calls the shots. (there's at least a few good interviews with pornstars out there in the podverse)

In the 9 pro scenes I've done, the only contracts signed were at the end and they were mainly for waivers of rights to the content shot, I think. Just this generalized performer's agreement. I don't think I've ever signed anything before I did a scene. At most they checked my ID. Maybe that's the case for pornstars at the very top, but they aren't typical. Whether the scene was rigidly controlled or not depended on the person/company filming it

 

[Alex_M_21]

It wasn't Hot Girls Wanted, was it?

It actually was! I don't think I'd ever have done porn before but after seeing that I definitely would not.

 

[EspiKvlt]

It actually was! I don't think I'd ever have done porn before but after seeing that I definitely would not.

Lol how did I know.

That documentary is complete shit. Rashida Jones is a whorephobe. When I threw a fit over it years ago, this was exactly why. People are going to think that's a realistic picture of what porn is and not biased garbage. Clearly, I was correct.

Please, do yourself a favor and listen to people in the porn industry, not biased, whorephobic propaganda.

 

[Alex_M_21]

Lol how did I know.

That documentary is complete shit. Rashida Jones is a whorephobe. When I threw a fit over it years ago, this was exactly why. People are going to think that's a realistic picture of what porn is and not biased garbage. Clearly, I was correct.

Please, do yourself a favor and listen to people in the porn industry, not biased, whorephobic propaganda.

Thanks, It's good to hear different angles on it. I have spoken to other people who have done porn and they gave me similar accounts of what it's like in the porn industry but I certainly can't say I know anything from personal experience.

 

[EspiKvlt]

Thanks, It's good to hear different angles on it. I have spoken to other people who have done porn and they gave me similar accounts of what it's like in the porn industry but I certainly can't say I know anything from personal experience.

I hope I don't come off like I'm attacking you, I just fucking hate that documentary with every fiber of my being.

 

[Alex_M_21]

I hope I don't come off like I'm attacking you, I just fucking hate that documentary with every fiber of my being.

Not at all, attack me all you like. Nothing wrong with being heated about your opinion.

I must admit that I found the scene where they were degrading that Latino girl really disturbing.

I think the documentary did focus on naive 18 year olds, who wanted fame and money but were not OK with the sex side of things, so it isn't a true reflection of the industry for sure.

 

[BobbyB]

Not at all, attack me all you like. Nothing wrong with being heated about your opinion.

I must admit that I found the scene where they were degrading that Latino girl really disturbing.

I think the documentary did focus on naive 18 year olds, who wanted fame and money but were not OK with the sex side of things, so it isn't a true reflection of the industry for sure.

Reminds me of interviews with Maxhardcore......

His approach was to look for girls new to the porn industry and in an interview he mentioned that for some of the girls it was their first and last contact with the porn industry.....actually there are a couple of interviews with him on Youtube....

Bottom line was he tried to explain to the girls what is expected before the shoot and the girls agreed, but then got sometimes annoyed when during the shoot the girls suddenly discovered they don't like it. This is a business and a shoot involves a lot of organisation and other peoples time ( camera / make up....) and if that is wasted you start losing real money ......

 

[zoober]

Reminds me of interviews with Maxhardcore......

His approach was to look for girls new to the porn industry and in an interview he mentioned that for some of the girls it was their first and last contact with the porn industry.....actually there are a couple of interviews with him on Youtube....

Bottom line was he tried to explain to the girls what is expected before the shoot and the girls agreed, but then got sometimes annoyed when during the shoot the girls suddenly discovered they don't like it. This is a business and a shoot involves a lot of organisation and other peoples time ( camera / make up....) and if that is wasted you start losing real money ......

Except that was also part of his schtick (that all his models were new to the business/taken by surprise etc.,) - am sure some were, but others very much less so. Shades of grey as ever

 

[EspiKvlt]

Except that was also part of his schtick (that all his models were new to the business/taken by surprise etc.,) - am sure some were, but others very much less so. Shades of grey as ever

 

[SMuser69]

Ok this is the 4th time this week someone's used the same Arthur reference. We have to try new things.

 

[EspiKvlt]

Ok this is the 4th time this week someone's used the same Arthur reference. We have to try new things.

 

[Val Vega]

Ok this is the 4th time this week someone's used the same Arthur reference. We have to try new things.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

When Max Hardcore stuff first started coming out is when I really started seeing things in porn that kind of repulsed me. This is well before he really started pushing the envelope.

 

[EspiKvlt]

This thread is slowly devolving into a "respond with an appropriate meme" thread and it's fucking hilarious.

 

[JickyJuly]

Societal control.
If women could freely profit just from their sexuality without fear of being labelled, there would be no way to keep control of them. To be a prostitute, camgirl, stripper takes very little initial investment. If you can make a wiener hard with your face, body, personality or voice you can make money. No degree necessary. Poor chicks can look as good as those who come from money. It upsets the balance. Heck, we even shame women who marry outside of the financial situation they're born into. Why? Control. Same reason so many cultures restrict education from women and the poor. You don't want the peasants to have education or money. To keep women as subordinates, they must not be allowed such simple route to money.

 

[snowwolf87]

Societal control.
If women could freely profit just from their sexuality without fear of being labelled, there would be no way to keep control of them. To be a prostitute, camgirl, stripper takes very little initial investment. If you can make a wiener hard with your face, body, personality or voice you can make money. No degree necessary. Poor chicks can look as good as those who come from money. It upsets the balance. Heck, we even shame women who marry outside of the financial situation they're born into. Why? Control. Same reason so many cultures restrict education from women and the poor. You don't want the peasants to have education or money. To keep women as subordinates, they must not be allowed such simple route to money.

A small portion of the idea of controlling women's sexuality is historical. When royalty and nobility was inherited by a man's children, being sure that his wife gave birth to only his offspring was seen as vital to society. This was due to nobility being seen as "better" and a characteristic of one's ancestry. To protect that, she must be kept away from temptation and away from situations that may "lead her astray."

Sadly, much of this attitude has survived to today.

 

[AmberCutie]

While many of us do not like Hot Girls Wanted and how whorephobic it was, I think there are still many accounts out there about porn stars not being in full control of their scenes. Back when that whole James Deen thing was a hot topic, I feel like I remember many stories of scenes that did not go the way the female stars wanted them to, whether it was directors or co-stars. So in the bigger picture I think a comment like "I wouldn't do actual porn because I'm not fully in control" is still an understandable one. In the end there IS still a difference between sitting alone in your house with an inanimate web cam in your face than being face-to-face with another person performing sexual activities together, in the sense that you're totally in control on cam, but still at the whim of others in person.

 

[SMuser69]

While many of us do not like Hot Girls Wanted and how whorephobic it was, I think there are still many accounts out there about porn stars not being in full control of their scenes. Back when that whole James Deen thing was a hot topic, I feel like I remember many stories of scenes that did not go the way the female stars wanted them to, whether it was directors or co-stars. So in the bigger picture I think a comment like "I wouldn't do actual porn because I'm not fully in control" is still an understandable one. In the end there IS still a difference between sitting alone in your house with an inanimate web cam in your face than being face-to-face with another person performing sexual activities together, in the sense that you're totally in control on cam, but still at the whim of others in person.

James Deen was a mix of on and off set issues. Girls surprised that he'd treat them in the bedroom exactly like he was treating them in a fantasy situation. The cases of his issues on set involved people not acknowledging or reacting to safe words or actions or being put into position where the safety method was impossible to accomplish.

This isn't a defense of James Deen just mentioning that not everything involved with him wasn't tied to on camera situations.

 

[AmberCutie]

James Deen was a mix of on and off set issues. Girls surprised that he'd treat them in the bedroom exactly like he was treating them in a fantasy situation. The cases of his issues on set involved people not acknowledging or reacting to safe words or actions or being put into position where the safety method was impossible to accomplish.

This isn't a defense of James Deen just mentioning that not everything involved with him wasn't tied to on camera situations.

Almost proves my point even farther, IMO. You can get into things beyond what happens on set by being involved in porn productions.