Who are you voting for?

[Mila_]

I thought I'd define this word for everyone else in this thread, because I had to look it up, and I don't know if this is something most people know and I just live under a rock and only talk to people with generally good opinions of racial minorities, but this is something I had never heard of before. To be clear on the classiness of this term, the first result is from Urban Dictionary, and was from what I could tell, the only result on the 1st search page that didn't also contain use of the n word and/or other explicitly racist terms, though it was still a slightly troubling page, even without the n word being tossed around. This is what Urban Dictionary said about this word:

----

Also, Mila, when was the last time someone was beheaded IN the United States by a Muslim?... I'll wait. Come on, you're so much smarter than that. That's some fear mongering bullshit. You're a smart woman, but man, why you so scared of Muslims? They're just people.

Edit: I realize now that you are talking about your own country. I don't know if there have been beheadings in your country recently, if so, do tell.

Gibsmedat is not only used for minorities, it comes from "give me that" as in: benefits.

I am spanish and I live half a year in Madrid and half a year in the US. I pay taxes in Spain cause I am not a US citizen, I have been talking about Spain and Europe for the past 4 pages.

The last time you had a muslim incident in the US if I am not mistaken was about a month ago in Orlando where some muslim killed a bunch of people at a gay club.

Europe is having stabbings, shootings and beheadings by muslims every week now, last week there were 3 attacks in one week alone. Then there was Nice and the beheading of a priest in France. Are you living in the same world as me?

 

[Mila_]

Sorry for the double post there isnt an "edit" button on mobile. On the last paragraph I meant to say "3 incidents in Germany in one week alone"

 

[Osmia]

"we have a model of universal gibsmedats "

MIla wins the word of the day.

And....
it appears some folks just like to play jailhouse lawyer and argue just for typing practice or something... Where was this forum when i was in typing class?

I somehow managed to avoid taking typing in high school (it was still called typing back then). I've spent most of my working life doing typical white collar work (lots of emails and reports) and computer programming. I've gotten pretty good at hunt, peck and cuss, and this forum has been quite helpful in that regard. Still, I'll never keep up with Mila.

 

[BlairLuxe]

Gibsmedat is not only used for minorities, it comes from "give me that" as in: benefits.

I am spanish and I live half a year in Madrid and half a year in the US. I pay taxes in Spain cause I am not a US citizen, I have been talking about Spain and Europe for the past 4 pages.

The last time you had a muslim incident in the US if I am not mistaken was about a month ago in Orlando where some muslim killed a bunch of people at a gay club.

Europe is having stabbings, shootings and beheadings by muslims every week now, last week there were 3 attacks in one week alone. Then there was Nice and the beheading of a priest in France. Are you living in the same world as me?

I am living in the same world as you, we just relate very differently to the world around us. I have only had very positive experiences with the Muslim Americans I've met. I think that alienating Muslims and making them feel hated pushes them into the arms of radical groups such as ISIS, as demonstrated by ISIS using Donald Trump speeches in their recruitment videos. Lumping them all into the group labeled "terrorist" is at least part of the equation of what radicalizes them. I'm not a fan of organized religion, because I think that it breeds radicalism, but that isn't isolated to Islam. I live under fundamentalist Christian legislators who try to insert their religion into law frequently, and I hate that, but most of the Christians I meet in day to day life are not fundamentalists. That is the same experience I have had with Muslims. Yes, there are loud fundamentalists, some of whom are in positions of power around the world, but most of the Muslims I meet are just regular folks.

 

[Mila_]

Jihad is a subject that would require its own thread, I dont want to derail this one, but if anyone feels like discussing it you can PM me or create a new thread. I have studied islam in depth and, to use a term that saw some light elsewhere on these forums I will be willing to do some redpilling on the matter.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet: Trump's statement at a news conference today:

Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/28/us/politics/donald-trump-russia-clinton-emails.html

DORAL, Fla. — Donald J. Trump said on Wednesday that he hoped Russian intelligence services had successfully hacked Hillary Clinton’s email, and encouraged them to publish whatever they may have stolen, essentially urging a foreign adversary to conduct cyberespionage against a former secretary of state.

“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Mr. Trump said during a news conference here in an apparent reference to Mrs. Clinton’s deleted emails. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

-----

To me, this is completely off the map in terms of the type of conduct and judgement that one would expect/demand from a president. However, I'm interested to see how Trump supporters explain it away. (BTW, I watched the video, and he wasn't joking--though that wouldn't have been much better.)

I don't like this crap one bit. I think Trump fans will accept it easily on the grounds that the Clintons are so evil.

Guess it's just part of the way the world works now. If it's illegal for your government to conduct surveillance on its own people, outsource it to another jurisdiction.

 

[Guy]

I am living in the same world as you, we just relate very differently to the world around us. I have only had very positive experiences with the Muslim Americans I've met. I think that alienating Muslims and making them feel hated pushes them into the arms of radical groups such as ISIS, as demonstrated by ISIS using Donald Trump speeches in their recruitment videos. Lumping them all into the group labeled "terrorist" is at least part of the equation of what radicalizes them. I'm not a fan of organized religion, because I think that it breeds radicalism, but that isn't isolated to Islam. I live under fundamentalist Christian legislators who try to insert their religion into law frequently, and I hate that, but most of the Christians I meet in day to day life are not fundamentalists. That is the same experience I have had with Muslims. Yes, there are loud fundamentalists, some of whom are in positions of power around the world, but most of the Muslims I meet are just regular folks.

She also said that Islam is Anti-Semitic in a previous thread.

 

[EllieGeorge]

I are you suggesting that if she becomes president we're going back to Iraq?

Not at all. Why would you think that?

 

[Guy]

Not at all. Why would you think that?

You said she would be willing to put our soldiers at risk.
As of right now, Iraq would be by far the most likely way for that to happen. A lot people think that the Untied States going back to Iraq is unimaginable. It's not.

 

[EllieGeorge]

You said she would be willing to put our soldiers at risk.
As of right now, Iraq would be by far the most likely way for that to happen. A lot people think that the Untied States going back to Iraq is unimaginable. It's not.

I was talking about Benghazi. We are still in Iraq and before I left, we had a group going.

 

[Guy]

I was talking about Benghazi. We are still in Iraq and before I left, we had a group going.

I was referring to the way we were in Iraq from 2003 to 2011.

 

[JoleneBrody]

I don't like this crap one bit. I think Trump fans will accept it easily on the grounds that the Clintons are so evil.

Guess it's just part of the way the world works now. If it's illegal for your government to conduct surveillance on its own people, outsource it to another jurisdiction.

Anything can be explained away as long as your party or person is the one doing it, aye? Both sides are pretty guilty of this but I feel like the republican party is really mastering this skill this election. Instead of having to dig for things, Trump just blurts this shit out on the daily... on TV... on twitter... every. stinkin. day.

The same people that were screaming about Obama not having enough experience as a politician to be president are now praising Trump for being an outsider with no political experience....

 

[EllieGeorge]

I was referring to the way we were in Iraq from 2003 to 2011.

ok I was just stating what Hillary did...

 

[Mila_]

I don't like this crap one bit. I think Trump fans will accept it easily on the grounds that the Clintons are so evil.

Guess it's just part of the way the world works now. If it's illegal for your government to conduct surveillance on its own people, outsource it to another jurisdiction.

I think the official explanation on the alt-right at least is that Trump said this controversial shit to steal the wind from Bill Clinton's speech at the DNC. I don't agree with it either, but you have to admit that he is a master at manipulating the media to feature him over everyone else.

 

[Ms_Diane]

Along the lines of explaining things away, it seems like many people who support Trump are cool with explaining things away because you kind of have to in order to continue to support him. Like he can't do anything wrong that will make his supporters change their minds about him. Of course some people will vote for him for different reasons and it is a compromise for them. But I guess I'm talking about people who really BELIEVE in him. That is how it often comes across anyway.

It also seems the distaste for Hillary adds jet fuel to the fire.

Just some observations from the sidelines.

 

[Mila_]

Along the lines of explaining things away, it seems like many people who support Trump are cool with explaining things away because you kind of have to in order to continue to support him. Like he can't do anything wrong that will make his supporters change their minds about him. Of course some people will vote for him for different reasons and it is a compromise for them. But I guess I'm talking about people who really BELIEVE in him. That is how it often comes across anyway.

It also seems the distaste for Hillary adds jet fuel to the fire.

Just some observations from the sidelines.

In the words of Ann Coulter: "I dont care if he performs abortions in the White House with his own hands, he has my vote". Ann Coulter is a christian and super pro-life so that is saying a lot. Why does she (and many) feel that way?

Because even if they disagree with many of his opinions they believe that his main goal (immigration control) is so important and he is the only candidate who has brought this issue up. Before Trump nobody talked about this. No media, no candidates, nobody. Even Republicans were for immigration, let us not forget it was Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz 2 of the key figures who wrote an amnesty bill and tried to pass it because the donors are all for maintaining their slave illegal alien class so they can profit at the expense of both the illegal aliens and the US economy/jobs. Since Trump didn't need donors he was able to single handedly put on the table an issue that most americans, especially blue collar americans have felt for a long time like someone needed to fix. And this is why he isn't simply "Trump". He is a movement of people who are fed up with the politicians in Washington and the donors and how the system is rigged.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Along the lines of explaining things away, it seems like many people who support Trump are cool with explaining things away because you kind of have to in order to continue to support him. Like he can't do anything wrong that will make his supporters change their minds about him. Of course some people will vote for him for different reasons and it is a compromise for them. But I guess I'm talking about people who really BELIEVE in him. That is how it often comes across anyway.

It also seems the distaste for Hillary adds jet fuel to the fire.

Just some observations from the sidelines.

Trump himself even commented on it, stating his followers are so loyal he "could shoot someone in the middle of the street and not lose voters."
That's not a thing to be proud of... he essentially called his own supporters stupid.

 

[LuckySmiles]

I would just like to mention that whenever I comeback to this thread in the last few days I see Bernie Sanders with a few more votes in the poll and it's too funny.
he's gone for real now guys...he's gone.

carry on!

 

[Osmia]

In the words of Ann Coulter: "I dont care if he performs abortions in the White House with his own hands, he has my vote". Ann Coulter is a christian and super pro-life so that is saying a lot. Why does she (and many) feel that way?

Because even if they disagree with many of his opinions they believe that his main goal (immigration control) is so important and he is the only candidate who has brought this issue up. Before Trump nobody talked about this. No media, no candidates, nobody. Even Republicans were for immigration, let us not forget it was Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz 2 of the key figures who wrote an amnesty bill and tried to pass it because the donors are all for maintaining their slave illegal alien class so they can profit at the expense of both the illegal aliens and the US economy/jobs. Since Trump didn't need donors he was able to single handedly put on the table an issue that most americans, especially blue collar americans have felt for a long time like someone needed to fix. And this is why he isn't simply "Trump". He is a movement of people who are fed up with the politicians in Washington and the donors and how the system is rigged.

This line of thought would be OK if immigration (or other issues that are popular with Trump's supporters) was the only thing (or even just the most important thing) he would have to be concerned with as president. But we all know that's not the case. Aside from running the country, he is in control of the 7,100 nuclear warheads the US possesses. The president has to assert American interests world-wide, using military force when needed, while at the same time avoiding unnecessary provocation. He has to deal with leaders such as Putin, Netanyahu and Xi of China). In other words, it takes a lot of judgment, finesse, and patience (none of which Trump has demonstrated).

The thing I Iike most about Trump is that he's not beholden to donors and special interests. Hillary Clinton is admittedly just the opposite. But that's certainly not enough to override my concerns about Trump.

 

[Mila_]

This line of thought would be OK if immigration (or other issues that are popular with Trump's supporters) was the only thing (or even just the most important thing) he would have to be concerned with as president. But we all know that's not the case. Aside from running the country, he is in control of the 7,100 nuclear warheads the US possesses. The president has to assert American interests world-wide, using military force when needed, while at the same time avoiding unnecessary provocation. He has to deal with leaders such as Putin, Netanyahu and Xi of China). In other words, it takes a lot of judgment, finesse, and patience (none of which Trump has demonstrated).

The thing I Iike most about Trump is that he's not beholden to donors and special interests. Hillary Clinton is admittedly just the opposite. But that's certainly not enough to override my concerns about Trump.

He might have a cavalier image but you dont buikd an empire by being a reckless idiot. Donald Trump graduated from Wharton School of business on the top of his class. He is a pretty smart guy and he has stated over and over again he doesnt want to get involved in any more wars with other countries. He is actually the polar opposite of Hillary who is a war hawk. So I am not worried about Trump deploying nukes.

And he actually gets along great with Putin, Netanyahu and other strong leaders, unlike President Obama who has alienated every leader that isnt a EU cuck, a Saudi Arabia Prince or personal friends with Castro. The track record of Obama giving his back to every US ally is sad. I think even Hillary would be a step up in that regard.

The reason we all care so much about immigration is because mexican immigrants (unlike cubans) vote overwhelmingly for the gibsmedats of the democratic party, I think the ratio is 9 to 1, so by giving illegal immigrants amnesty and a path to citizenship the potential votes the democratic party would win is around 30 million. This is if every illegal immigrant got citizenship. This would guarantee no conservative, libertarian, or in any other spot of this side of the spectrum would ever again win an election in the US. So this could very well be what marks the end (or not if Trump wins) of the America the Founding Fathers intended.

 

[DFT]

he's gone for real now guys...he's gone.

Alas, poor Bernie! I knew him, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy

I think, hope anyway, we all know the President is the least important vote on the ballot (unless you're in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida or a surprise swing state), but damn if it isn't the best for venting frustrations. In the same way it's the best vote to use as a protest or advocacy. I'm not throwing away my vote to vote for someone who can't win. I'm not a big Gary Johnson fan, but I'll vote Libertarian just to nudge us further toward a multiple party system, as I recommend to my friends with other views to do with the Green Party.

Nothing wrong with voting for someone who won't get elected. Almost half the voters do that anyway. Vote who you want, not against the lesser of evils. That's proven to just getting evil elected.

 

[Osmia]

He might have a cavalier image but you dont buikd an empire by being a reckless idiot. Donald Trump graduated from Wharton School of business on the top of his class. He is a pretty smart guy and he has stated over and over again he doesnt want to get involved in any more wars with other countries. He is actually the polar opposite of Hillary who is a war hawk. So I am not worried about Trump deploying nukes.

And he actually gets along great with Putin, Netanyahu and other strong leaders, unlike President Obama who has alienated every leader that isnt a EU cuck, a Saudi Arabia Prince or personal friends with Castro. The track record of Obama giving his back to every US ally is sad. I think even Hillary would be a step up in that regard.

The reason we all care so much about immigration is because mexican immigrants (unlike cubans) vote overwhelmingly for the gibsmedats of the democratic party, I think the ratio is 9 to 1, so by giving illegal immigrants amnesty and a path to citizenship the potential votes the democratic party would win is around 30 million. This is if every illegal immigrant got citizenship. This would guarantee no conservative, libertarian, or in any other spot of this side of the spectrum would ever again win an election in the US. So this could very well be what marks the end (or not if Trump wins) of the America the Founding Fathers intended.

Interesting article in the Penn student newspaper: http://www.thedp.com/article/2015/08/donald-trump-wharton-classmates

Reports of Trump’s grades at Wharton vary. The New York Times reported in 1973 and 1976 that he graduated first in his class. But in a 1985 biography of Trump, Jerome Tuccille wrote that he was not an honor student and “spent a lot of time on outside business activities.”

Another biographer, Gwenda Blair, wrote in 2001 that Trump was admitted to Wharton on a special favor from a “friendly” admissions officer. The officer had known Trump’s older brother, Freddy.

Trump’s classmates doubt that the real estate mogul was an academic powerhouse.

“He was not in any kind of leadership. I certainly doubt he was the smartest guy in the class,” said Steve Perelman, a 1968 Wharton classmate and a former Daily Pennsylvanian news editor.

From the Washington Post:

Though he was not enrolled in Wharton’s prestigious MBA program, the Spring 2007Wharton Alumni Magazine featured Trump, with this headline, “The Best Brand Name in Real Estate.”

And more of the same in Fortune.

If he would just release his Wharton transcripts....

The point about nukes and not being a war hawk like Hillary (which I agree she is, or has been)...I'm concerned about his stability and impulse control. People can make dumb decisions in a crisis. I would feel a lot better about him if he had served in a government position with real stakes, such as secretary of state or defense. It's hard to imagine what real crises he's encountered and surmounted over the years.

On the immigration issue, I've never seen it put so bluntly, and I think you're right about the political calculus. I had been thinking of it mainly in economic terms or as a racist/ethnic issue. I think those are still part of the explanation, but I can see it now as yet another Republican voter suppression effort that targets voters who are likely to vote for democrats.

 

[eyeteach]

The point is, it's not something that is happening in such a prevalent manner that we should assume all Muslims want to behead us. That's horrible. If I made judgments about groups of people based on every single isolated or rare occurrence of violence, I would have to be scared of everyone. I don't want to live like that.

49 people were murdered in Orlando by a muslim, not the first person was beheaded there. 14 people were shot down and killed in San Bernardino by muslims,, again no beheading's there. Five U.S. military personel were killed in Chattanooga by a muslim but he did not behead anyone there. The Ft Hood massacre: 13 people dead and I believe something like 30 or so injured by a muslim. Dead is dead. It doesn't make a difference if it's a beheading, or gun violence, or using pressure cookers as bombs, or hijacking passenger jets and crashing them into buildings. Whether the current administration wants to declare it or not we are at war with radical muslims; they are here in the United States murdering citizens. So yes, downvote this all you want but muslims entering this country should be vetted; the life saved may very well be your own.

 

[LuckySmiles]

I think, hope anyway, we all know the President is the least important vote on the ballot (unless you're in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida or a surprise swing state), but damn if it isn't the best for venting frustrations. .

I'm not so convinced it's going to be that clear this election. I've talked to some people, who talked to some people, in some very unofficial friend polling. There are many who are traditionally very liberal that are planning on voting Trump back in my homestate of NY. NY has not voted Republican in the Presidential race since Reagan. And the primary results were a bit different than the country overall, with Trump taking a big lead followed by Kasich, and no delegates for Cruz. Hillary/Sanders was closer. Voter turnout in the NY primaries was roughly 3 million, while voters in the last presidential election totaled over 7 million. So figure less than half bother with the primaries. I bring this up because there were many more(like a million) votes tallied in the Democratic primaries, than Republican.

But you also have to be a registered Republican to vote in the primaries... the people that Trump seems to be getting more support among are those who don't traditionally vote Republican, or bother voting at all. Add some recent Bern victims to the group and he might just make it.

I have my own feelings about the man and remain on the fence/wall, but his popularity isn't coming from traditional conservatives and white supremacists, it's quite the opposite actually.

 

[Ms_Diane]

Aren't all immigrants to the States vetted? What are the problems with the current American immigration system that people think are not good enough? It sounds like Trump wants to not allow ANY people who are Muslim into the country, is that right? Is that realistic, or is he overstating as a way to create a frenzy and get attention?

Is the idea that a no or very few Muslim immigration policy would prevent Muslim extremism because it is easier than working on relations with Muslim countries and not doing so much war?

I guess if closing the borders to Muslims is the answer to extremism, I would be interested to know what people think the reasons are for a rise in Muslim extremism and violence in the first place. Not saying it doesn't happen in other places btw.

 

[Ms_Diane]

Dp in response to Mila's disagree rating, although probably she will have a nice long response soon. How can you disagree with questions lol? Set me straight, why don't you!

 

[LuckySmiles]

Aren't all immigrants to the States vetted? What are the problems with the current American immigration system that people think are not good enough? It sounds like Trump wants to not allow ANY people who are Muslim into the country, is that right?

In short No. He's referring to refugees being allowed into America en masse. Look up what's happening in Europe from the increase in acceptance of migrants in the last couple years as we started discussing here.

He is not referring to the random world citizen, businessman, doctor etc. who happens to be Muslim and wants to come to the USA voluntarily. He is referring to the large groups of displaced migrants being shuffled into countries, by the 1000's, that potentially already have beef with Western culture and foreign policy. There are nearly 5 million displaced right now from the Syrian conflict alone.

Many people don't want the US to start resembling the current crisis in Europe. Trump overhypes everything, but he's the only candidate to even touch the topic.

 

[AmberCutie]

Taxation is involuntary seizure of property. IE: it's theft. What the thief does with the money does not make it any less theft, because there was no consent involved in the taking of the wealth. Theft is a violent act. Highly efficient theft is still theft. And theft is, again, violence.

One of the more ridiculous things I've seen posted at this forum ever.

 

[altern8]

In short No. He's referring to refugees being allowed into America en masse. Look up what's happening in Europe from the increase in acceptance of migrants in the last couple years as we started discussing here.

He is not referring to the random world citizen, businessman, doctor etc. who happens to be Muslim and wants to come to the USA voluntarily. He is referring to the large groups of displaced migrants being shuffled into countries, by the 1000's, that potentially already have beef with Western culture and foreign policy. There are nearly 5 million displaced right now from the Syrian conflict alone.

Many people don't want the US to start resembling the current crisis in Europe. Trump overhypes everything, but he's the only candidate to even touch the topic.

Trump's original statement in December did actually call for a total and complete ban on Muslim immigration to the US until we can "figure out what's going on."

He's since changed that a bit, calling for a suspension of immigration from any nation that has been "compromised by terrorism" until proven vetting mechanisms are put in place.

I think it's fair to say that there are a lot of open questions about what this would mean in practice.

 

[Ms_Diane]

In short No. He's referring to refugees being allowed into America en masse. Look up what's happening in Europe from the increase in acceptance of migrants in the last couple years as we started discussing here.

He is not referring to the random world citizen, businessman, doctor etc. who happens to be Muslim and wants to come to the USA voluntarily. He is referring to the large groups of displaced migrants being shuffled into countries, by the 1000's, that potentially already have beef with Western culture and foreign policy. There are nearly 5 million displaced right now from the Syrian conflict alone.

Many people don't want the US to start resembling the current crisis in Europe. Trump overhypes everything, but he's the only candidate to even touch the topic.

Ok thanks. Canada has been taking in many Syrian refugees but it is nowhere near the numbers that are coming into European countries. It is surprising to me that he is the only candidate to talk about it. Here people are even bringing over refugee families on their own, through a national immigration sponsorship program. Many communities have been fundraising to help sponsor more refugees, so it's a just a very different attitude towards the situation. Why do you think he's the only candidate to talk about it? He is such a divisive character it seems like a bad person to be the one leading the conversation. Of course if you agree with his take on it, then it might not seem like that. But as you say, he "overhypes" everything which makes it harder to have a more thoughtful conversation about it and kind of sets everyone up to dig their heels in and argue.